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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 19:03:01
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by linkadge on April 30, 2012, at 18:14:50
> Methamphetamine like other stimulants depleats dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin.
Since we are on the subject, what serotonergic properties does d-amphetamine possess? It was reported recently by Dr. Ken Gillman of the Psychotropical Research website that amphetamine could cause serotonin syndrome when combined with a MAOI. I never heard of this.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on April 30, 2012, at 20:54:00
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 19:03:01
The amphetamines reverse the transport of serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine - effectively causing both reuptake inhibition and release.
They can cause serotonin syndrome in combination with MAOIs.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 22:01:58
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by linkadge on April 30, 2012, at 20:54:00
That's strange, there was a poster here that took Adderall XR and Parnate, I should of asked..yea I was like that doesnt sound right
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 22:12:01
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine » rjlockhart04-08, posted by ron1953 on April 30, 2012, at 13:43:57
Yea...its a release to get away from reality once and while yet when it becomes nessasary to produce this everyday and vary expensive from the black market, seriously the blackmarket is the most biggest money intrest to get gain and it becomes a problem that will alter both financial and chemcial balance in an individuel. Of course if you need something bad enough, that's the benefit of it being there. Anyways it's vary hard to comply with everyday things without having an everday mind...I have to force myself to do things I hate...anyways thanks.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 22:23:00
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by linkadge on April 30, 2012, at 18:14:50
And that's vary sad you have that view of me, get over it...this is a widespread thing alot of people do, and have the same substance in their systems when either they are studying for a final, or needing it to get them going.. The only diffrence is how the person is obtaining it, either through a doctor or joe blow's house of pleasure. The doctor has their own views on their use of medication, and that is how they will use their intellict, usally you have to get on the same state of view as they are to work with them. I'm not trying to be insultive but it really pisses me off when I have been humilated for my beliefs because of circumstances that no one will understand, until its too late...
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 22:39:02
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by linkadge on April 30, 2012, at 20:54:00
> The amphetamines reverse the transport of serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine - effectively causing both reuptake inhibition and release.
>
> They can cause serotonin syndrome in combination with MAOIs.I know that methamphetamine is a potent serotonin releaser, but what about d-amphetamine?
I have been on Parnate 120 mg and added 40 mg of Dexedrine. I was also taking desipramine at the time. I have also added Dexedrine to Nardil 90 mg while also taking nortriptyline. Maybe I just got lucky, but these combinations have been considered safe for many years.
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 23:09:42
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by Phillipa on April 30, 2012, at 18:17:15
yes, I have stopped, I'm listening to vary dark music to ease some feelings, I don't like to hear sunshine music when I feel this state of mind...I just wished that God or Lucifer would just take over my body and let them do all the dirty work and of course that will never happen unless I expand more into the spirit relm, people have told me to leave and I really loathe not having the aggressive social ettiqutte to reenter and socialize normally with people without having to take a substance.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 23:12:26
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 19:03:01
that is one combination that I could never understand...really, I mean its great combination seriously...but I don't ever seeing any kind of doctor doing this for me...usally the ones that are more advanced maybe...yea..
Posted by creepy on May 1, 2012, at 7:23:41
In reply to How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 12:40:49
meth bought on the street is not a pure drug. Makes for a great way to fry your brain. Even prescription desoxyn is probably bad over the long haul. But its a lot safer than street drugs for sure.
Question is.. could you take a prescription stim at a given dose and remain at that dose even when tolerance set in?
Posted by Shes_Initforthemoney on May 1, 2012, at 9:27:22
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine » linkadge, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 22:39:02
> > The amphetamines reverse the transport of serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine - effectively causing both reuptake inhibition and release.
> >
> > They can cause serotonin syndrome in combination with MAOIs.
>
> I know that methamphetamine is a potent serotonin releaser, but what about d-amphetamine?
>
> I have been on Parnate 120 mg and added 40 mg of Dexedrine. I was also taking desipramine at the time. I have also added Dexedrine to Nardil 90 mg while also taking nortriptyline. Maybe I just got lucky, but these combinations have been considered safe for many years.
>
>
> - ScottDoesn't Parnate partially convert to amphetamine as a metabolite?
Jay
Posted by SLS on May 1, 2012, at 9:56:48
In reply to Re: methamphetamine + Parnate » SLS, posted by Shes_Initforthemoney on May 1, 2012, at 9:27:22
> > > The amphetamines reverse the transport of serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine - effectively causing both reuptake inhibition and release.
> > >
> > > They can cause serotonin syndrome in combination with MAOIs.
> >
> > I know that methamphetamine is a potent serotonin releaser, but what about d-amphetamine?
> >
> > I have been on Parnate 120 mg and added 40 mg of Dexedrine. I was also taking desipramine at the time. I have also added Dexedrine to Nardil 90 mg while also taking nortriptyline. Maybe I just got lucky, but these combinations have been considered safe for many years.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Doesn't Parnate partially convert to amphetamine as a metabolite?
>
> Jay
This has been the subject of debate for over 40 years. Most believe that there are no amphetamine metabolites of Parnate. However, one study of a person who overdosed on Parnate showed amphetamine in their blood stream.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=tranylcypromine%20amphetamine%20overdose
- Scott
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 1, 2012, at 13:18:20
In reply to Re: How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by creepy on May 1, 2012, at 7:23:41
could you take a prescription stim at a given dose and remain at that dose even when tolerance set in?
Well, yea...of course, that's what Im doing with my currenlt meds right now like Prozac and Nuvigil they don't have any effect on me. Of course If was taking a real stimulant at given dose...I just have a tendency to find the most optimium effect it will give me. And I can't put it to any other words...many people maybe have this same thinking but I have been labeled a substance abuser and a drug addict too. You have to move and get away from all those bad labels.
Posted by linkadge on May 1, 2012, at 16:58:35
In reply to Re: link, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 22:23:00
>this is a widespread thing alot of people do, >and have the same substance in their systems >when either they are studying for a final, or >needing it to get them going.
Oh sorry, I didn't realize a lot of people were doing it. I guess its ok then.
My appoligies,
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on May 1, 2012, at 17:02:57
In reply to Re: creepy, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 1, 2012, at 13:18:20
I do believe d-amphetamine has effects on serotonin like meth. Not sure why it has been combined with parnate.
MAOIs have been combined safely with even SSRIs in some cases. I wonder if treatment resistance produces resistance to serotonin syndrome?
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 2, 2012, at 0:55:02
In reply to Re: creepy, posted by linkadge on May 1, 2012, at 17:02:57
People do it all the time...I have deal with my consequences and exposing it to the truth, I have posted basically my life here on dr-bob. Give or leave it...I am not trying to be offensive but I have had to deal with alot of skeptism from people and im trying to convey a point that this is a act to achieve a balance that I do not have..im still in the process of working with a vary difficult doctor. If methamphetamine was used daily, and at high amounts yes, it would be nuerotoxic and it would begin to deterate the brain because its like stepping on the gas on car and running it down until the engine fades and eventually does not work anymore.
Posted by SLS on May 2, 2012, at 5:59:16
In reply to Re: creepy, posted by linkadge on May 1, 2012, at 17:02:57
> MAOIs have been combined safely with even SSRIs in some cases.
I have seen this reported for the reversible moclobemide - Joffe; Bakish - but not for the irreversibles Parnate and Nardil. MAOIs are weird. They are unpredictable with respect to drug and food interactions. Therefore, I wouldn't dismiss any reports of such a combination.
> I wonder if treatment resistance produces resistance to serotonin syndrome?
That's an interesting idea. For me, however, this is not the case.
One day, in great desperation, I took a very small (approximately 6.25 mg) test dose of Effexor while in the midst of Parnate treatment at 80 mg. I wanted to test for serotonin syndrome. I chose Effexor because of its relatively short half life. Within an hour of dosing, I developed the classic symptoms of SS, including muscle rigidity and an incoherent altered state. My parents said that I was saying things that were unintelligible. As I was just beginning to come out of it, I asked that they take my temperature. It was elevated by 1.5°F. That is not very much, but certainly unusual for me. I can only imagine what would have happened had I taken the whole 75 mg tablet of Effexor.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 2, 2012, at 6:04:27
In reply to Re: creepy, posted by linkadge on May 1, 2012, at 17:02:57
Hi Linkadge.
> I do believe d-amphetamine has effects on serotonin like meth. Not sure why it has been combined with parnate.
I am still baffled as to why I never heard of d-amphetamine being serotonergic. I can't find anything on Medline Pubmed indicating this. In any event, I never reacted badly to adding Dexedrine to either Parnate or Nardil in dosages of at least 20 mg. More recently, I added Adderal to Nardil without sequalae.
This is an important issue. Some doctors have been combining MAOIs and d-amphetamine for years. If you can find something definitive on this point, I would be grateful. I found paraphrasing on Google, but no references to scientific literature.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 2, 2012, at 7:05:49
In reply to Re: creepy, posted by linkadge on May 1, 2012, at 17:02:57
Hi Linkadge.
All in all, most of the literature I found states that amphetamine releases serotonin. You were right (as usual).
I found some referenced literature on Wiki indicating serotonin release is a property of d-amphetamine. Unfortunately, the conclusions reached in these investigations rely upon inferences based on indirect in vivo observations using pharmacological probes rather than direct in vitro measurements using synaptosomes.
The following study is interesting:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21615721
It reported actual measurements of serotonin concentrations in response to different drugs. Amphetamine was the weakest at increasing extracellular serotonin. This is not an insignificant finding. However, again, it is an in vivo measurement. It is possible that this measurement represents an indirect increase of serotonin activity resulting from negative feedback loops that are wired to attenuate hyperlocomotion
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15545015
Obviously, I am cherry-picking.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on May 2, 2012, at 7:17:03
In reply to How my mind works and methamphetamine, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on April 30, 2012, at 12:40:49
I agree with Linkadge.
It is an established fact that methamphetamine is highly neurotoxic and irreversibly damages dopaminergic AND serotonergic brain cells. This leads to both neurological and psychiatric abnormalities.
I am sad.
- Scott
Posted by herpills on May 2, 2012, at 14:47:33
In reply to Re: link, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 2, 2012, at 0:55:02
> im still in the process of working with a vary difficult doctor.
You've mentioned this before that you don't have a good doctor or good relationship with your doctor. In my opinion you really aren't going to make progress if this is the kind of situation you have with your doctor. What are your options for finding a new doc? Is this pdoc private practice? Is there a community mental health clinic you could go to? herpills
Posted by linkadge on May 2, 2012, at 16:17:23
In reply to Re: link » rjlockhart04-08, posted by herpills on May 2, 2012, at 14:47:33
If somebody has a problem with meth, I am very sympathetic. However, I'm not as sympathetic when somebody refuses to see it as a problem.
A lot of people with drug problems try and justify it by saying that "everybody does it".
If everybody jumped off a cliff that wouldn't make it a good idea.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 2, 2012, at 18:00:38
In reply to Re: link, posted by linkadge on May 2, 2012, at 16:17:23
Well I do ... have a problem but its not .. a serious everyday thing, its only used once and while to get me back to functioning normally, and being able to have a deeper intellict for a temporary period of time. I have been accussed many times of things that where not exactly the case, yet I do admit that I am an addict from all the desperation of times that I have had abuse of substances. I do it either to find relief from current situation or to enhance my mental motivation to study, and do things I would not normally do like clean, talk much faster and better, and feel content with myself. You know? My usage in the past and present are usally stimulants and then having to have something to calm down after they where off, I've already tried Cannabis, it makes me derealized and I have to lock myself up away from people because I am not with reality and I freak out. In the past I was precribed various benzos for both anxiety and for sleep that would use for treatment of the insomnia..
So...its vary hard working with a doctor that constantly thinks about the abuse potential of any med, I admit I do have big tendency to take more and take pills through out the day, and I admit that is my problem...im not content of who I am so that's why I mask the problems with subsitutes and crutches and right now I have no crutches...so I have deal with this misery 24/7, and that's why I have gotten envolved in getting spiritual help.Anyways, thanks link. It's hard to not be irritated when I see other people do this kinda buisness like its part of thier lives go to parties and their pills being passed around like its beer and they get away with it. Anyways...see ya around
Matt
Posted by SLS on May 2, 2012, at 19:54:24
In reply to Re: link, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 2, 2012, at 18:00:38
> its only used once and while to get me back to functioning normally, and being able to have a deeper intellict for a temporary period of time.
It is entirely understandable that you should be trapped into using methamphetamine in order to feel better. I am more angry at your illness than I am with you. It is not your fault. It must be an irresistible temptation to take anything that will bring you out of depression - even for a few hours. However, that makes it no less damaging to your brain to take methamphetamine. Taking methamphetamine now might make you less apt to respond to treatment in the future. I have no evidence of this to present you with, though.
I have no suggestions.
Well, maybe one. Have you tried Abilify yet?
- Scott
Posted by Shes_Initforthemoney on May 2, 2012, at 20:30:00
In reply to Re: link, posted by linkadge on May 2, 2012, at 16:17:23
> If somebody has a problem with meth, I am very sympathetic. However, I'm not as sympathetic when somebody refuses to see it as a problem.
>
> A lot of people with drug problems try and justify it by saying that "everybody does it".
>
> If everybody jumped off a cliff that wouldn't make it a good idea.
>
> LinkadgeNow C'mon. Denial is a part of addiction. I've worked Detox and heard so much of this. I need a stim every day..dexedrine...have for years and will likely continue until my expiry (lol). Some forms of amphetamines are prescribed...some are illegal. There is a grey area..and I believe in Harm Reduction more than anything. If there is a safer alternative...do it...even if it has some risks. I see small..controled doses of Dexedrine as "methadone" is to heroin. Maybe even better risk wise. IF RJ wants help...what his addiction is treating has to be replaced..and again..if he can find a good addiction specialist..I have seen doctors prescribe a dose of dexedrine (usually spansules) that the client has to take in his/her office every day. Now that Vyvanse is around..it is much safer to dispense this med.
I am NOT saying your concerns are invalid...but anger has done nothing than but propel stigma and intollerance.
Jay
Posted by psychobot5000 on May 4, 2012, at 19:11:49
In reply to Re: link, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on May 2, 2012, at 18:00:38
Hi Matt,
I'm very sympathetic to your situation. Being depressed like that is hard, and I, like others, grasp at almost anything to try to get out of it. You shouldn't feel bad.
That said, I don't know your case well, but there's good evidence that large doses of methamphetamine are very, very bad for your brain--to the point of putting large holes in it, as has been previously mentioned. And that's not even getting to its hyperthermic (i.e. feverish) effects on the rest of your body, even with occasional use. Or the poisonous substances that tend to occur with it in its street form. Simply put, crystal is horrible for you, and in 'recreational' doses (as you're quite clearly taking it), even more so. It's not worth it. Not under any circumstances I can think of. It damages the dopamine nerve terminals in your brain, which will, in the medium and long term, make you even worse.
Best of luck,
Psychbot
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