![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 89. Go back in thread:
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:47:53
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by SLS on November 3, 2009, at 17:19:38
>My current belief is that the efficacy of SJW is >often exaggerated.
It just depends who you talk to. The efficacy of SSRI's could be seen as exaggerated too. In terms of mild-moderate depression, I think there is enough evidence to say that SJW can be effective.
For severe depression, I think that:
a) there is a lack of data
b) there is a hesitancy to recomend anything that is OTC as severely depressed individuals should be under a doctors care.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on November 3, 2009, at 18:52:05
In reply to You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 2, 2009, at 18:55:47
> DO NOT ever take St. John's Wort IT IS DANGEROUSANY substance that impacts the nervous system carries risk and danger. If you read the fine print of the potential horrible side effects (I call them direct effects) of SSRIs, SNRIs, anticonvulsants, and antipsychotics, I think you'll see any risk of SJW is miniscule in comparison.
What happened with you is undeniable. But was it really the SJW, or something else?
Cherrypicking one or several studies to form an opinion on anything is worthless. One needs to study every possible one they can find, and then visit the forums that discuss those things, and google a ton of searches. One must have a very well rounded picture to know the whole scoop. If you had done that with SJW, you would have seen at sjwinfo.org that maybe 1 in 100 in the archives did have some kind of bizarre side neurological side effect. It doesn't mean SJW is dangerous. It does mean it has power. You would have also seen that with people like us a pbabble, SJW has been a miracle for people who have been on dozens of psych meds. You would have seen everything you see here...it worked fast, it worked slow, it worked sort-of, it worked great, it didn't work, it pooped out, it had side effects...all of it.
Germany is a world leader is herbal medicine and they have an organization similar to our FDA who's expertise and focus is herbs. SJW happens to be a prescription medication and is prescribed far more often than Prozac. That would not be happening if it was dangerous or if it didn't work. Simple as that.
Back to you. What happened? Two things came to mind, both of which most people are not aware of.
SJW is a potent antimicrobial against many bacteria, viruses, and fungi. When we kill a bunch of those things too fast, we experience a flood of their dying toxins and debris that basically poisons our nerves. It is called a Herxheimer reaction. A serious Herx can do nervous system damage. It isn't the anitmicrobial's fault, it is the fault of going too far too fast. Too high of a starting dose. Incorrect diagnosis.
If you have hidden infectious agents (gee, hmmm ever consider maybe, just maybe, that might be where the psych symptoms are coming from?), SJW can induce a serious die-off effect.
With any med or herb, I feel it is wise to start at ridiculously low doses...75mg SJW, 2.5mg Lexapro, 12.5mg Zoloft, etc. These meds and herbs are indeed powerful, and there is much we don't know about them, despite we liking to think we are experts on them, we aren't. We are all living experiments at the hands of the pharm companies.
Another thing SJW tends to do is lower the cortisol response. If you have hypoadrenalism, or low cortisol, SJW is probably going to worsen that, at least in the short term. If your psych symptoms are due to low cortisol (do not underestimate the power of cortisol on your neurotransmitters), SJW can potentially make you feel a lot worse real fast.
SJW was my first AD many years ago and was a miracle. Actually, nothing ever worked as good. I've been on every drug, none were as good or as fast. It's only side effect for me was light sleep.
Now is different. It makes me really depressed really fast. Like I said, things are different. Now I have documented low cortisol, and now I have documented infectious pathogens. No wonder SJW is rough on me. It would probably be good for me in the long run, but would require probably a year to titrate up on it, begining with perhaps a drop tincture 3 times per day, working up to full dose over a year, controlling the Herx along the way and allowing adrenals to gently heal.
If you are going to say SJW is dangerous, then you have to also say that every prescription medicine and every other herb is also dangerous. Because they are. They are all quite potent.
How about someone with Celiac disease who doesn't know they have it. Guess what is really dangerous to them? Pizza. Tuna sandwich. Big Mac. Pretzels.
I am very sorry you had a bad reaction. I am just saying there is probably more going on here than you are seeing, and that SJW is not the one to point the finger at.
>
Posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 4:30:32
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bleauberry on November 3, 2009, at 18:52:05
Youre right,actualy any substance capable of passing the blood brain barrier can be dangerous.
On the flip side,i hear you keep mentioning that it was a prescription medication in germany,i dont believe that holds much value,lets look at what is or was also prescription,
MDMA,ecstasy
L-dopa a mere amino acid
samE now otc and avaiable to everyone
kava kava as the trade name KAVAINTryptohan
i can go on and on,im glad st johnns wort is helping u,but for the most part,using personal experiance,and tons and tons of readgings of message groups,st johns wort is not considered a very effective treatment for depression,in fact 5 htp is touted much more effective and im not saying that is highly mentioned either.
Im disappointed to see your recent strong view on what seems to be natural over medication,i did the natural route,learned every herb/nutrient/amino acid there is for depression,and all i got was a lot of money wasted.
When u take a natural supplement at mega doses it no longer is natural.When u mess with balance of amino acids,that is not a safe practice either.
Herbs cross the blood brain barrier,making them no different the drugs,and that includes the risks also.
It saddens me cause i used to love and respect your views when reading ur posts.
Posted by Netch on November 4, 2009, at 8:09:31
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 4:30:32
I've given up on SJW. It pooped out.
When I retry it, it just causes agitation, irritability and skin rash./Netch
Posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 9:13:04
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by Netch on November 4, 2009, at 8:09:31
It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
Posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 12:54:31
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 9:13:04
> It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
>
> What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
>
> In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
>
>I did not say the herb had no promise. I just believe this is basically a pharm med sitting on our shelves. I see so many different strengths and formulations that I am appalled. We need to remove this herb from the supplement shelves and have pharma companies conduct research on this herb. Find out what works and see if the part of the herb that works can be separated from the other parts that may be responsible from the most serious sides. Perhaps we will end up with a pharm med that is superior to just the herb and without the parts that cause cataracts and serious burns. So we will have a med that has gone thru research,testing a precise formualtion. Doctors will dispense it when appropraiate that it is compatible with your meds. Also warning about cataracts when necessary. SJW may give us a the ingrediants to build a very good ad!
Posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 13:32:12
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 12:54:31
> > It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
> >
> > What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
> >
> > In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
> >
> >
>
> I did not say the herb had no promise. I just believe this is basically a pharm med sitting on our shelves. I see so many different strengths and formulations that I am appalled. We need to remove this herb from the supplement shelves and have pharma companies conduct research on this herb. Find out what works and see if the part of the herb that works can be separated from the other parts that may be responsible from the most serious sides. Perhaps we will end up with a pharm med that is superior to just the herb and without the parts that cause cataracts and serious burns. So we will have a med that has gone thru research,testing a precise formualtion. Doctors will dispense it when appropraiate that it is compatible with your meds. Also warning about cataracts when necessary. SJW may give us a the ingrediants to build a very good ad!
The problem is that the our patent system is set up and the hurdles that must be jumped to get FDA approval would prevent a pharm company from ever trying to get FDA approval on SJW. As long as you cannot patent a naturally occurring compound there is no incentive to spend 10's of millions of dollars to get approval. Until that system changes it either is allowed to remain over the counter where it can help those who are helped by it, or, it is removed from the market altogether.Interestingly enough, pharmaceutical companies are working on synthetic derivatives to hyperforin, one of the principle ingredients in SJW. How funny, here we have an effective substance at our disposal, cheap and over the counter, but it would be better if a synthetic derivative were created and sold for a much higher price all in the name of regulation and profit. That strikes me as so backwards. It amazes me how some people would rather be taken care of than learn to take care of themselves. Feed yourself.
If you had done any research whatsoever you would know that there are currently hyperforin only brands on the market which do not contain or contain very little hypericin.
Finally, St. John's Wort, in the therapeutic doses taken by humans, does not cause cataracts or severe burns. I asked you kindly yesterday to provide actual evidence, not anecdote, to your continued assertion that is does. but you did not. Yet, you still make the claim. I wonder why that is?
Posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 14:33:04
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 13:32:12
> > > It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
> > >
> > > What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
> > >
> > > In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I did not say the herb had no promise. I just believe this is basically a pharm med sitting on our shelves. I see so many different strengths and formulations that I am appalled. We need to remove this herb from the supplement shelves and have pharma companies conduct research on this herb. Find out what works and see if the part of the herb that works can be separated from the other parts that may be responsible from the most serious sides. Perhaps we will end up with a pharm med that is superior to just the herb and without the parts that cause cataracts and serious burns. So we will have a med that has gone thru research,testing a precise formualtion. Doctors will dispense it when appropraiate that it is compatible with your meds. Also warning about cataracts when necessary. SJW may give us a the ingrediants to build a very good ad!
>
>
> The problem is that the our patent system is set up and the hurdles that must be jumped to get FDA approval would prevent a pharm company from ever trying to get FDA approval on SJW. As long as you cannot patent a naturally occurring compound there is no incentive to spend 10's of millions of dollars to get approval. Until that system changes it either is allowed to remain over the counter where it can help those who are helped by it, or, it is removed from the market altogether.
>
> Interestingly enough, pharmaceutical companies are working on synthetic derivatives to hyperforin, one of the principle ingredients in SJW. How funny, here we have an effective substance at our disposal, cheap and over the counter, but it would be better if a synthetic derivative were created and sold for a much higher price all in the name of regulation and profit. That strikes me as so backwards. It amazes me how some people would rather be taken care of than learn to take care of themselves. Feed yourself.
>
> If you had done any research whatsoever you would know that there are currently hyperforin only brands on the market which do not contain or contain very little hypericin.
>
> Finally, St. John's Wort, in the therapeutic doses taken by humans, does not cause cataracts or severe burns. I asked you kindly yesterday to provide actual evidence, not anecdote, to your continued assertion that is does. but you did not. Yet, you still make the claim. I wonder why that is?
>
>Can the hyperforin be be extracted (totally free of other ingrediants) and marketed by a pharm company? Hyperforin appears to be the active ingrediant. That way I know exactly what I'm taking. I thought other pharm meds were extracts.
The reality is that at times we don't even know what is in that capsules that says its sjw. Very unregulated system.
As for the cataracts and burns. I've been reading about sjw for about 15 years. It is not easy to locate old online articles.
The cattle were browsing in a field where sjw was growing. There were some severe sides. This was not a study. This was something noted by whomever owned the cattle.
Actually would love to try one of the newer high hyperforin products. There's sc27 by new chapter.But!
1. I now have cataracts
2. I take thyroid (synthroid) blood pressure meds and othersI know you're not convinced these sides are valid.But any reasonable person with cataracts that takes pharm meds would be prudent and pass on the sjw.
Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:00:20
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by Netch on November 4, 2009, at 8:09:31
>I've given up on SJW. It pooped out.
>When I retry it, it just causes agitation, >irritability and skin rash.I could say the same thing for a dozen or so AD's. Minus the skin rash thing.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:04:20
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 14:33:04
>The cattle were browsing in a field where sjw >was growing.
I heard that story only the reverse conclusion. I read an article which stated that no adverse effects had been observed in the cattle that graze about and feed on the SJW plant daily for years.
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on November 4, 2009, at 17:28:53
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 12:54:31
I liked William Burroughs's idea that psych texts should be pulped and psychiatrists turned into veterinarians, but hey, that's just me.
Posted by Sigismund on November 4, 2009, at 17:36:06
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:04:20
In places where the light is stronger there is a photosensitivity reaction to it.
I also found this in a book on poisonous plants>New Zealand workers have noticed that affected sheep whilst in an active stage of photosensitization due to the plant, react violently to contact with cold water. As soon as their forefeet enter the water, they rear on their hind legs and make convulsive movements. A light knock on the head or ear will trigger off similar convulsive movements.
Posted by bleauberry on November 4, 2009, at 17:48:16
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 4:30:32
> Youre right,actualy any substance capable of passing the blood brain barrier can be dangerous.
>
> On the flip side,i hear you keep mentioning that it was a prescription medication in germany,i dont believe that holds much value,lets look at what is or was also prescription,
>
>
> MDMA,ecstasy
> L-dopa a mere amino acid
> samE now otc and avaiable to everyone
> kava kava as the trade name KAVAIN
>
> Tryptohan
>They are prescription because they are studied, controlled, and each pill/batch is exactly the same as the next...unlike in USA where you never know what you are going to get from one brand to another, one bottle to another.
You mentioned "a mere amino acid". Even that is flawed. I can show you posts of people who tried ABC brand of tyrosine, DEF brand of tyrosine, both felt aweful, and then tried XYZ brand which felt great. On retrials of the original ones, just to test, they were indeed crap the second and third time around, and XYZ consistently was great each time. Even with mere amino acids, you don't know for sure what you are getting...kind of like a cousin situation to the brand vs generic thing. Not only are many generics found to have different feel and efficacy compared to brand, but the generics amongst themselves can be distinctly different. We see that here all the time. Same with OTC products.
Germany has more of an exact science in their plant pharmacology, with lots of research and study, which requires exact formulas, which requires prescription. My point however was that, given a choice between SJW or SSRI, they choose SJW 6 times more freqently. That would not be happening if it wasn't providing results.
> i can go on and on,im glad st johnns wort is helping u,but for the most part,using personal experiance,and tons and tons of readgings of message groups,st johns wort is not considered a very effective treatment for depression,in fact 5 htp is touted much more effective and im not saying that is highly mentioned either.
>
> Im disappointed to see your recent strong view on what seems to be natural over medication,i did the natural route,learned every herb/nutrient/amino acid there is for depression,and all i got was a lot of money wasted.That just tells me your depression is not due to low serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. Something else. I am very sorry your efforts were fruitless. I think that can happen because people are not well schooled on which agents to choose, why to choose them, how to combine them, why to combine them, and how critical the brand choices and dosing strategies are. It's not as simple as just popping a few supplement pills for a few days to see what happens and then move on to a different one.
>
>
> When u take a natural supplement at mega doses it no longer is natural.That is true. The thing is, of the people I have talked to who experience remission on natural agents, none of them take anything close to mega doses. One guy for example...130mg tyrosine divided up into 5 little doses throughout the day. I do not believe in megadoses of anything.
>
> When u mess with balance of amino acids,that is not a safe practice either.But messing with all the unknowns of powerful artificial chemicals is? You do realize, for every bit of information that we know about a drug, there is 10X that much we don't know. Back to your original statement however, messing with amino acids I believe carries a far lower risk than anything else. You can even do that with food choices...heavy protein vs heavy carbs, etc.
>
> Herbs cross the blood brain barrier,making them no different the drugs,and that includes the risks also.True. I think I already said that. Anything that impacts the nervous system carries risk.
>
> It saddens me cause i used to love and respect your views when reading ur posts.It saddens me you feel that way. What I see too often is what I also see in this post...someone who is struggling for an answer, a new avenue, an idea...and yet if it is anything outside of the psychiatric toolbox, forget it. Why someone would limit their potentials for life enhancement is beyond me. But that's ok, we all have our own lives to be responsible for. I personally prefer a large toolbox with lots of tricks in it, only some of which are from the psychiatric menu.
I have been 100% pro meds at times. That's when people at pbabble like my posts the most...because it fit the mindframe they were in...meds, meds, meds, and nothing but meds.
I have also been 100% natural at times. But over time I have concluded that neither approach is perfect, both have flaws, both are purely experimental, and the best results are witnessed by combining strategies of both med and natural. (the word natural includes herbs, supplements, tailored exercise, tailored food choices, anti-microbial strategies, and anti-toxin strategies). We're not simply talking tryptophan or SJW. A sick mind/sick body needs a whole lot more than any single pharm drug or herb is going to provide. They are sick for a reason, and it probably aint as simple as a chemical imbalance. Several bases need to be covered simultaneously in concert and compliment with each other.
For example, someone on a psych med with a specific diet and a specific exercise routine and a few specialty supplements and anti-microbial anti-toxin strategies is going to be in a whole lot better condition than someone on cocktail list of psych meds and nothing else.
So when you see me talking natural stuff or defending natural stuff, please don't misunderstand me. I am pro-med and pro-natural and pro-healthy, all at the same time. Neither one of those by themselves is going to get anyone very far for very long, except a very few who happen to hit a jackpot for whatever unknown reason. That does happen, but very infrequently, yet most of us think we are in line to hit the next lucky jackpot. We aren't. We keep trying one drug after another as if we are sure the next one is the jackpot. Ten years goes by. Twenty years.
It takes work to bring a sick mind/sick body back to health. I do not believe natural alone will do that. I do not believe pharm alone will do that.
But overall I did want to defend SJW, and reiterate I think the profound reaction to SJW highlighted a serious hidden problem that SJW did not cause, but rather uncovered and exposed.
That can be taken as a powerful glaring hint, or it can be outright ignored. We all have our own choices and prices.
Posted by SLS on November 4, 2009, at 18:04:42
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bleauberry on November 4, 2009, at 17:48:16
> My point however was that, given a choice between SJW or SSRI, they choose SJW 6 times more freqently.
The statistical comparison I read about was between SJW and Prozac (fluoxetine) usage. It did not compare SJW to SSRIs in general. It is possible that the other antidepressants are used more often.
Also:
- Scott
Posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 18:08:41
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:04:20
> >The cattle were browsing in a field where sjw >was growing.
>
> I heard that story only the reverse conclusion. I read an article which stated that no adverse effects had been observed in the cattle that graze about and feed on the SJW plant daily for years.
>
> Linkadge
Grazing: St. Johnswort presents difficult problems for grazing, given its chemical constituents. It depresses the central nervous system and increases the animals' sensitivity to temperature change and handling. St. Johnswort also affects the liver, causing temporary sensitivity to sunlight. Livestock usually avoid it unless food is scarce. Excess consumption leads to blistering and itching on light-haired or unpigmented skin areas including the mouth, nose and ears. Dark skin is not affected. The animals may lose weight, become difficult to manage, and they may die of dehydration or starvation if there is swelling or soreness in the mouth. Cattle need to ingest only 1% of their body weight to be affected, whereas sheep can consume up to 4% of their weight. The wool and meat of affected animals is often of poor quality. Horses, rabbits and pigs are also affected by the herb, but I have not found any information reporting whether or not goats are affected. The dried plant as found in hay is much less potent than fresh, but may still cause problems.
Posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 18:20:40
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » linkadge, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 18:08:41
> > >The cattle were browsing in a field where sjw >was growing.
> >
> > I heard that story only the reverse conclusion. I read an article which stated that no adverse effects had been observed in the cattle that graze about and feed on the SJW plant daily for years.
> >
> > Linkadge
>
>
> Grazing: St. Johnswort presents difficult problems for grazing, given its chemical constituents. It depresses the central nervous system and increases the animals' sensitivity to temperature change and handling. St. Johnswort also affects the liver, causing temporary sensitivity to sunlight. Livestock usually avoid it unless food is scarce. Excess consumption leads to blistering and itching on light-haired or unpigmented skin areas including the mouth, nose and ears. Dark skin is not affected. The animals may lose weight, become difficult to manage, and they may die of dehydration or starvation if there is swelling or soreness in the mouth. Cattle need to ingest only 1% of their body weight to be affected, whereas sheep can consume up to 4% of their weight. The wool and meat of affected animals is often of poor quality. Horses, rabbits and pigs are also affected by the herb, but I have not found any information reporting whether or not goats are affected. The dried plant as found in hay is much less potent than fresh, but may still cause problems.
>
>
>Also read the link in Scott's post. I posted for what I thought a genuine health risk. If you feel free to google this topic on cattle and sjw this apparently is quite common. I for one will not use the product but feel free to ingest large quantities of sjw since herbal means safe. I guess you're entitled to do what you wish with your eyes. I won't waste my time any more as this is becoming quite childish.
Posted by Phillipa on November 4, 2009, at 18:46:25
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 18:20:40
Sounds to me that wearing sunglasses protects the eyes while on SJW. I too have cataracts as never wore sunglasses and lived in the sun all summer from the time I was a child. Also I'm blue eyed so more risk. Love Phillipa
Posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 19:21:23
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by SLS on November 4, 2009, at 18:04:42
So according to that study, I should not apply an unspecified amount of hypericin directly to my lenses and then proceed to irradiate them with an unspecified amount of UVB light, for an unspecified amount of time. Is that about right?
Posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 19:32:28
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 18:20:40
> > Grazing: St. Johnswort presents difficult problems for grazing, given its chemical constituents. It depresses the central nervous system and increases the animals' sensitivity to temperature change and handling. St. Johnswort also affects the liver, causing temporary sensitivity to sunlight. Livestock usually avoid it unless food is scarce. Excess consumption leads to blistering and itching on light-haired or unpigmented skin areas including the mouth, nose and ears. Dark skin is not affected. The animals may lose weight, become difficult to manage, and they may die of dehydration or starvation if there is swelling or soreness in the mouth. Cattle need to ingest only 1% of their body weight to be affected, whereas sheep can consume up to 4% of their weight. The wool and meat of affected animals is often of poor quality. Horses, rabbits and pigs are also affected by the herb, but I have not found any information reporting whether or not goats are affected. The dried plant as found in hay is much less potent than fresh, but may still cause problems.Sorry, I wasn't aware there were any cattle on this board taking SJW for mood disorders? What exactly is the point of this? If it makes you feel better I promise not let my cow or goat graze on SJW. Can we now drop this sillyness?
> Also read the link in Scott's post. I posted for what I thought a genuine health risk. If you feel free to google this topic on cattle and sjw this apparently is quite common. I for one will not use the product but feel free to ingest large quantities of sjw since herbal means safe. I guess you're entitled to do what you wish with your eyes. I won't waste my time any more as this is becoming quite childish.
Again with the cattle.
Childish? What is childish, taking 1 or two potential side effects and blowing them way out of proportion to what the literature indicates and then using it as justification for hysteria.Furthermore, not one person in this thread has made any statement to the extant that SJW is completely safe and requires no caution or education before ingestion. Anything that you put into your body is potentially going to cause an adverse reaction. Heck, people even die from too much water! True story. Acetaminophen causes many deaths every year. If you eat too many calories you can develop metabolic syndrome and die. Etc. Etc. Etc.......
Posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 21:35:19
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bleauberry on November 4, 2009, at 17:48:16
> > Youre right,actualy any substance capable of passing the blood brain barrier can be dangerous.
> >
> > On the flip side,i hear you keep mentioning that it was a prescription medication in germany,i dont believe that holds much value,lets look at what is or was also prescription,
> >
> >
> > MDMA,ecstasy
> > L-dopa a mere amino acid
> > samE now otc and avaiable to everyone
> > kava kava as the trade name KAVAIN
> >
> > Tryptohan
> >
>
> They are prescription because they are studied, controlled, and each pill/batch is exactly the same as the next...unlike in USA where you never know what you are going to get from one brand to another, one bottle to another.WOW that is so untrue,are you not familiar with GMP,its a official qouality control assurance measure,google it and you can see.Brands that carry the stamp gmp have been through this process of quality meaaure,so you are not just getting x amount of whatever,you can be assured youre getting what the bottle states.GMP has been around for ages and is considered and extremly realiable assurance of quality.
>
> You mentioned "a mere amino acid". >Yess and your response oan only mean you misinterperted me.What my point was in the mention of that statement was even natural substances are prescription such as l dopa,and that the fact something is prescription doesent make it something grand.You took only part of my statement and then responded with a whole different scenerio.
> Germany has more of an exact science in their plant pharmacology, with lots of research and study, which requires exact formulas, which requires prescription. My point however was that, given a choice between SJW or SSRI, they choose SJW 6 times more freqently. That would not be happening if it wasn't providing results.Well it isnt as if st johns wort is unobtianable here,i was only using my personal expericance,and even more so my ten years of deep research on tons of groups,and with this st johns wort is and never was considered a first line effective choice,in fact on a group i belonged to on google "smart drugs and nutrients" a popular natural treatment for depression was a amino acid stack of dl-phenlayine,tyorsine.
>
> > i can go on and on,im glad st johnns wort is helping u,but for the most part,using personal experiance,and tons and tons of readgings of message groups,st johns wort is not considered a very effective treatment for depression,in fact 5 htp is touted much more effective and im not saying that is highly mentioned either.
> >
> > Im disappointed to see your recent strong view on what seems to be natural over medication,i did the natural route,learned every herb/nutrient/amino acid there is for depression,and all i got was a lot of money wasted.
>
> That just tells me your depression is not due to low serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. Something else. I am very sorry your efforts were fruitless. I think that can happen because people are not well schooled on which agents to choose, why to choose them, how to combine them, why to combine them, and how critical the brand choices and dosing strategies are. It's not as simple as just popping a few supplement pills for a few days to see what happens and then move on to a different one.That is quite a statement to claim the reason most people found natural remedies ineffective vs meds were due to not knowing enough.Perhaps it was merly due to the fact they simply dident work?
>
> >
> >
> > When u take a natural supplement at mega doses it no longer is natural.
>
> That is true. The thing is, of the people I have talked to who experience remission on natural agents, none of them take anything close to mega doses. One guy for example...130mg tyrosine divided up into 5 little doses throughout the day. I do not believe in megadoses of anything.
>
> >
> > When u mess with balance of amino acids,that is not a safe practice either.
>
> But messing with all the unknowns of powerful artificial chemicals is? You do realize, for every bit of information that we know about a drug, there is 10X that much we don't know. Back to your original statement however, messing with amino acids I believe carries a far lower risk than anything else. You can even do that with food choices...heavy protein vs heavy carbs, etc.I never stated meds did not,however the imbalance of messing with supplemnting amino acids is real and can drive people up a wall.L phenlyaline can raise blood pressure and give you a heart attack,thats why even a pack of gum MUST state it contains it.My point is people should not think if they go natural that they have no serious risks.Self treatment of depression with say amino acids can worsen depression siginificantly which itself is a danger.
>
> >
> > Herbs cross the blood brain barrier,making them no different the drugs,and that includes the risks also.
>
> True. I think I already said that. Anything that impacts the nervous system carries risk.
>
> >
> > It saddens me cause i used to love and respect your views when reading ur posts.
>
> It saddens me you feel that way. What I see too often is what I also see in this post...someone who is struggling for an answer, a new avenue, an idea...and yet if it is anything outside of the psychiatric toolbox, forget it. Why someone would limit their potentials for life enhancement is beyond me. But that's ok, we all have our own lives to be responsible for. I personally prefer a large toolbox with lots of tricks in it, only some of which are from the psychiatric menu.Whoa again an assumption,as i said i visited a group and bought the book series SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS,this groups premise is based on the combination of the use of both medication,nutrients,and herbs to treat depression.
All are valued,studied and discussed along the group.I learned about everything from deprenyl,...to less known nutrients like picamilion which is a potent gaba nutrient,to l theanine which is also a common use natural nutrient.
So sorry but i have and do think outside the box,and i respect the use of natural methos,and medication methods,and both.My point was it seems you are starting to dabble close to the line of anti med period.This is just my observation only.
>
> I have been 100% pro meds at times. That's when people at pbabble like my posts the most...because it fit the mindframe they were in...meds, meds, meds, and nothing but meds.
>
> I have also been 100% natural at times. But over time I have concluded that neither approach is perfect, both have flaws, both are purely experimental, and the best results are witnessed by combining strategies of both med and natural. (the word natural includes herbs, supplements, tailored exercise, tailored food choices, anti-microbial strategies, and anti-toxin strategies). We're not simply talking tryptophan or SJW. A sick mind/sick body needs a whole lot more than any single pharm drug or herb is going to provide. They are sick for a reason, and it probably aint as simple as a chemical imbalance. Several bases need to be covered simultaneously in concert and compliment with each other.
>
> For example, someone on a psych med with a specific diet and a specific exercise routine and a few specialty supplements and anti-microbial anti-toxin strategies is going to be in a whole lot better condition than someone on cocktail list of psych meds and nothing else.
>
> So when you see me talking natural stuff or defending natural stuff, please don't misunderstand me. I am pro-med and pro-natural and pro-healthy, all at the same time. Neither one of those by themselves is going to get anyone very far for very long, except a very few who happen to hit a jackpot for whatever unknown reason. That does happen, but very infrequently, yet most of us think we are in line to hit the next lucky jackpot. We aren't. We keep trying one drug after another as if we are sure the next one is the jackpot. Ten years goes by. Twenty years.
>
> It takes work to bring a sick mind/sick body back to health. I do not believe natural alone will do that. I do not believe pharm alone will do that.
>
> But overall I did want to defend SJW, and reiterate I think the profound reaction to SJW highlighted a serious hidden problem that SJW did not cause, but rather uncovered and exposed.Dont get me wrong,i speak from the heart when i say i could not be happier you have success on sjw,espcecialy after the horrid experiance of ect.
>
> That can be taken as a powerful glaring hint, or it can be outright ignored. We all have our own choices and prices.
>
>My concern,or i guess point is reading ur post of late is seems as i stated you are dabbling near being anti med,i know you say you arent,but im getting that impression from your posts,and i am a strong opposer to people who are anti natural and anti med.
Downplaying one or the other to someone sick is to me a serious thing,a sick person new and unknowledgeable to meds or anything does not need anyone with a personal vandetta swaying them to one side,they need their treatment to be carefully selected,and if medication is what sounds best for them,contary to what you said,i believe opening the psychiatric door at that time is crucial opposed to spending time trying various over the counter supplements.
Posted by Sigismund on November 4, 2009, at 21:58:25
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » linkadge, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 18:08:41
>I have not found any information reporting whether or not goats are affected.
Goats seem to be more resistant.
Posted by SLS on November 4, 2009, at 23:49:36
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 19:21:23
>
> >
> > Also:
> >
> > http://depression.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=depression&cdn=health&tm=25&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p619.12.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi%3Fdb%3Dpubmed%26cmd%3DRetrieve%26dopt%3DAbstractPlus%26list_uids%3D12929754%26query_hl%3D1%26itool%3Dpubmed_docsum
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
> So according to that study, I should not apply an unspecified amount of hypericin directly to my lenses and then proceed to irradiate them with an unspecified amount of UVB light, for an unspecified amount of time. Is that about right?
Since there are multiple scientific investigations that come to the same conclusions (hypericin damages ocular lens proteins via its interaction with alpha-Crystallin and singlet oxygen), it might be prudent to investigate the potential for SJW to facilitate the development of cataracts seriously.
- Scott
Posted by bulldog2 on November 5, 2009, at 7:52:05
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 19:32:28
>
> > > Grazing: St. Johnswort presents difficult problems for grazing, given its chemical constituents. It depresses the central nervous system and increases the animals' sensitivity to temperature change and handling. St. Johnswort also affects the liver, causing temporary sensitivity to sunlight. Livestock usually avoid it unless food is scarce. Excess consumption leads to blistering and itching on light-haired or unpigmented skin areas including the mouth, nose and ears. Dark skin is not affected. The animals may lose weight, become difficult to manage, and they may die of dehydration or starvation if there is swelling or soreness in the mouth. Cattle need to ingest only 1% of their body weight to be affected, whereas sheep can consume up to 4% of their weight. The wool and meat of affected animals is often of poor quality. Horses, rabbits and pigs are also affected by the herb, but I have not found any information reporting whether or not goats are affected. The dried plant as found in hay is much less potent than fresh, but may still cause problems.
>
> Sorry, I wasn't aware there were any cattle on this board taking SJW for mood disorders? What exactly is the point of this? If it makes you feel better I promise not let my cow or goat graze on SJW. Can we now drop this sillyness?
>
> > Also read the link in Scott's post. I posted for what I thought a genuine health risk. If you feel free to google this topic on cattle and sjw this apparently is quite common. I for one will not use the product but feel free to ingest large quantities of sjw since herbal means safe. I guess you're entitled to do what you wish with your eyes. I won't waste my time any more as this is becoming quite childish.
>
> Again with the cattle.
> Childish? What is childish, taking 1 or two potential side effects and blowing them way out of proportion to what the literature indicates and then using it as justification for hysteria.
>
> Furthermore, not one person in this thread has made any statement to the extant that SJW is completely safe and requires no caution or education before ingestion. Anything that you put into your body is potentially going to cause an adverse reaction. Heck, people even die from too much water! True story. Acetaminophen causes many deaths every year. If you eat too many calories you can develop metabolic syndrome and die. Etc. Etc. Etc.......
>
>There seem to be two sets of rules around here. The alt med people frequently use rat and other animal studies to further their views. I guess that doesn't apply to negative sides.
Posted by bulldog2 on November 5, 2009, at 7:54:01
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by SLS on November 4, 2009, at 23:49:36
> >
> > >
> > > Also:
> > >
> > > http://depression.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=depression&cdn=health&tm=25&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p619.12.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi%3Fdb%3Dpubmed%26cmd%3DRetrieve%26dopt%3DAbstractPlus%26list_uids%3D12929754%26query_hl%3D1%26itool%3Dpubmed_docsum
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> >
> > So according to that study, I should not apply an unspecified amount of hypericin directly to my lenses and then proceed to irradiate them with an unspecified amount of UVB light, for an unspecified amount of time. Is that about right?
>
>
> Since there are multiple scientific investigations that come to the same conclusions (hypericin damages ocular lens proteins via its interaction with alpha-Crystallin and singlet oxygen), it might be prudent to investigate the potential for SJW to facilitate the development of cataracts seriously.
>
>
> - ScottThese people are in a state of denial.
Posted by TenMan on November 5, 2009, at 8:00:36
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by SLS on November 4, 2009, at 23:49:36
> >
> > >
> > > Also:
> > >
> > > http://depression.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=depression&cdn=health&tm=25&f=00&su=p284.9.336.ip_p619.12.336.ip_&tt=2&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi%3Fdb%3Dpubmed%26cmd%3DRetrieve%26dopt%3DAbstractPlus%26list_uids%3D12929754%26query_hl%3D1%26itool%3Dpubmed_docsum
> > >
> > >
> > > - Scott
> >
> >
> > So according to that study, I should not apply an unspecified amount of hypericin directly to my lenses and then proceed to irradiate them with an unspecified amount of UVB light, for an unspecified amount of time. Is that about right?
>
>
> Since there are multiple scientific investigations that come to the same conclusions (hypericin damages ocular lens proteins via its interaction with alpha-Crystallin and singlet oxygen), it might be prudent to investigate the potential for SJW to facilitate the development of cataracts seriously.
>
>
> - ScottI have been taking SJW for years. I am well aware of the published studies, good and bad, along with much of the anecdote, about the herb. Personally, I am especially concerned about the cataracts issue because my father had it in both eyes in his late 50's and I share his blue eyes, a trait which predisposes one to cataract formation to begin with. However, to this point, I have seen nothing that warrants major concern to the effect that taking the standard doses used for mood disorders orally will hasten the formation of cataracts, as for now it is all theoretical. Personally, I'm far more concerned with the potential unknown consequences of a lifetime of SSRI or Atypcial AP use than SJW. There is no question in my mind what the riskier option is.
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