Posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 21:35:19
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bleauberry on November 4, 2009, at 17:48:16
> > Youre right,actualy any substance capable of passing the blood brain barrier can be dangerous.
> >
> > On the flip side,i hear you keep mentioning that it was a prescription medication in germany,i dont believe that holds much value,lets look at what is or was also prescription,
> >
> >
> > MDMA,ecstasy
> > L-dopa a mere amino acid
> > samE now otc and avaiable to everyone
> > kava kava as the trade name KAVAIN
> >
> > Tryptohan
> >
>
> They are prescription because they are studied, controlled, and each pill/batch is exactly the same as the next...unlike in USA where you never know what you are going to get from one brand to another, one bottle to another.WOW that is so untrue,are you not familiar with GMP,its a official qouality control assurance measure,google it and you can see.Brands that carry the stamp gmp have been through this process of quality meaaure,so you are not just getting x amount of whatever,you can be assured youre getting what the bottle states.GMP has been around for ages and is considered and extremly realiable assurance of quality.
>
> You mentioned "a mere amino acid". >Yess and your response oan only mean you misinterperted me.What my point was in the mention of that statement was even natural substances are prescription such as l dopa,and that the fact something is prescription doesent make it something grand.You took only part of my statement and then responded with a whole different scenerio.
> Germany has more of an exact science in their plant pharmacology, with lots of research and study, which requires exact formulas, which requires prescription. My point however was that, given a choice between SJW or SSRI, they choose SJW 6 times more freqently. That would not be happening if it wasn't providing results.Well it isnt as if st johns wort is unobtianable here,i was only using my personal expericance,and even more so my ten years of deep research on tons of groups,and with this st johns wort is and never was considered a first line effective choice,in fact on a group i belonged to on google "smart drugs and nutrients" a popular natural treatment for depression was a amino acid stack of dl-phenlayine,tyorsine.
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> > i can go on and on,im glad st johnns wort is helping u,but for the most part,using personal experiance,and tons and tons of readgings of message groups,st johns wort is not considered a very effective treatment for depression,in fact 5 htp is touted much more effective and im not saying that is highly mentioned either.
> >
> > Im disappointed to see your recent strong view on what seems to be natural over medication,i did the natural route,learned every herb/nutrient/amino acid there is for depression,and all i got was a lot of money wasted.
>
> That just tells me your depression is not due to low serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. Something else. I am very sorry your efforts were fruitless. I think that can happen because people are not well schooled on which agents to choose, why to choose them, how to combine them, why to combine them, and how critical the brand choices and dosing strategies are. It's not as simple as just popping a few supplement pills for a few days to see what happens and then move on to a different one.That is quite a statement to claim the reason most people found natural remedies ineffective vs meds were due to not knowing enough.Perhaps it was merly due to the fact they simply dident work?
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> >
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> > When u take a natural supplement at mega doses it no longer is natural.
>
> That is true. The thing is, of the people I have talked to who experience remission on natural agents, none of them take anything close to mega doses. One guy for example...130mg tyrosine divided up into 5 little doses throughout the day. I do not believe in megadoses of anything.
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> >
> > When u mess with balance of amino acids,that is not a safe practice either.
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> But messing with all the unknowns of powerful artificial chemicals is? You do realize, for every bit of information that we know about a drug, there is 10X that much we don't know. Back to your original statement however, messing with amino acids I believe carries a far lower risk than anything else. You can even do that with food choices...heavy protein vs heavy carbs, etc.I never stated meds did not,however the imbalance of messing with supplemnting amino acids is real and can drive people up a wall.L phenlyaline can raise blood pressure and give you a heart attack,thats why even a pack of gum MUST state it contains it.My point is people should not think if they go natural that they have no serious risks.Self treatment of depression with say amino acids can worsen depression siginificantly which itself is a danger.
>
> >
> > Herbs cross the blood brain barrier,making them no different the drugs,and that includes the risks also.
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> True. I think I already said that. Anything that impacts the nervous system carries risk.
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> >
> > It saddens me cause i used to love and respect your views when reading ur posts.
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> It saddens me you feel that way. What I see too often is what I also see in this post...someone who is struggling for an answer, a new avenue, an idea...and yet if it is anything outside of the psychiatric toolbox, forget it. Why someone would limit their potentials for life enhancement is beyond me. But that's ok, we all have our own lives to be responsible for. I personally prefer a large toolbox with lots of tricks in it, only some of which are from the psychiatric menu.Whoa again an assumption,as i said i visited a group and bought the book series SMART DRUGS AND NUTRIENTS,this groups premise is based on the combination of the use of both medication,nutrients,and herbs to treat depression.
All are valued,studied and discussed along the group.I learned about everything from deprenyl,...to less known nutrients like picamilion which is a potent gaba nutrient,to l theanine which is also a common use natural nutrient.
So sorry but i have and do think outside the box,and i respect the use of natural methos,and medication methods,and both.My point was it seems you are starting to dabble close to the line of anti med period.This is just my observation only.
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> I have been 100% pro meds at times. That's when people at pbabble like my posts the most...because it fit the mindframe they were in...meds, meds, meds, and nothing but meds.
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> I have also been 100% natural at times. But over time I have concluded that neither approach is perfect, both have flaws, both are purely experimental, and the best results are witnessed by combining strategies of both med and natural. (the word natural includes herbs, supplements, tailored exercise, tailored food choices, anti-microbial strategies, and anti-toxin strategies). We're not simply talking tryptophan or SJW. A sick mind/sick body needs a whole lot more than any single pharm drug or herb is going to provide. They are sick for a reason, and it probably aint as simple as a chemical imbalance. Several bases need to be covered simultaneously in concert and compliment with each other.
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> For example, someone on a psych med with a specific diet and a specific exercise routine and a few specialty supplements and anti-microbial anti-toxin strategies is going to be in a whole lot better condition than someone on cocktail list of psych meds and nothing else.
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> So when you see me talking natural stuff or defending natural stuff, please don't misunderstand me. I am pro-med and pro-natural and pro-healthy, all at the same time. Neither one of those by themselves is going to get anyone very far for very long, except a very few who happen to hit a jackpot for whatever unknown reason. That does happen, but very infrequently, yet most of us think we are in line to hit the next lucky jackpot. We aren't. We keep trying one drug after another as if we are sure the next one is the jackpot. Ten years goes by. Twenty years.
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> It takes work to bring a sick mind/sick body back to health. I do not believe natural alone will do that. I do not believe pharm alone will do that.
>
> But overall I did want to defend SJW, and reiterate I think the profound reaction to SJW highlighted a serious hidden problem that SJW did not cause, but rather uncovered and exposed.Dont get me wrong,i speak from the heart when i say i could not be happier you have success on sjw,espcecialy after the horrid experiance of ect.
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> That can be taken as a powerful glaring hint, or it can be outright ignored. We all have our own choices and prices.
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>My concern,or i guess point is reading ur post of late is seems as i stated you are dabbling near being anti med,i know you say you arent,but im getting that impression from your posts,and i am a strong opposer to people who are anti natural and anti med.
Downplaying one or the other to someone sick is to me a serious thing,a sick person new and unknowledgeable to meds or anything does not need anyone with a personal vandetta swaying them to one side,they need their treatment to be carefully selected,and if medication is what sounds best for them,contary to what you said,i believe opening the psychiatric door at that time is crucial opposed to spending time trying various over the counter supplements.
poster:willyeee
thread:924178
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20091029/msgs/924514.html