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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 33. Go back in thread:
Posted by JadeKelly on January 14, 2009, at 15:01:40
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know? » Garnet71, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 13:56:58
Just to lighten things up a bit, my brother and I have what we call "million dollar days". If one of us is having a million dollar day, even being handed a million dollars would not lighten our mood.
I don't "know" that the A/D that I am taking will last longer than sex, or money, or whatever. But I can make a choice to continue with it based on the duration and the results I've seen in others.
~Jade
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on January 14, 2009, at 17:15:28
In reply to How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 10:44:23
Nobody...I mean NOBODY, can tell you, or I, how WE feel inside. That is what I hate about many pdocs and such, saying, "you take X, so you should feel like Y". It's quite simple...forget all of the b*llsh*t...if it feels "better" than our baseline (as opposed to "good"...an elevated, artificial high...which is only temporary) just go with it. We DON'T need to know the WHY of everything!
Jay
Posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 17:33:20
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know? » SLS, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on January 14, 2009, at 17:15:28
> Nobody...I mean NOBODY, can tell you, or I, how WE feel inside.
Are you sure? In my experience, a good psychotherapist can. This is a good thing.
I bet you're feeling anxious and angry inside right now. (How am I doing)?
> That is what I hate about many pdocs and such, saying, "you take X, so you should feel like Y". It's quite simple...forget all of the b*llsh*t...if it feels "better" than our baseline (as opposed to "good"...an elevated, artificial high...which is only temporary) just go with it. We DON'T need to know the WHY of everything!
Sure we do. That's how we can reproduce and improve results while doing the least harm.
As a patient, you certainly don't have to know a damned thing as long as your treatment works and is doing you no harm.
Sometimes, a lot of education goes a short way.
- Scott
Posted by seldomseen on January 14, 2009, at 18:13:19
In reply to How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 10:44:23
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think what you are getting at is the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
Neuroscientists know a lot, we know a lot, the internet has a lot of information. I'm not sure, as patients, we should be seeking more knowledge.
I think we should be seeking wisdom.
I think what certain neuroscientists/physicians/experienced patients have is the ability to synthesize tons of information and sort out what has merit and what does not.
Personally, I'm not an anecdotal person, but a well-documented case history or report can have merit. So can a case series. But there is the unavoidable fact of regression to the mean.
I will reveal here that I am a scientist, though not in the field of psychiatry. I can say with absolute certainty that the most highly educated, impeccably trained scientists will freely admit that they don't know much, only as much as their next study.
Seldom.
Posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 18:44:37
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know? » SLS, posted by seldomseen on January 14, 2009, at 18:13:19
> I can say with absolute certainty that the most highly educated, impeccably trained scientists will freely admit that they don't know much, only as much as their next study.
I know. I wasn't commenting on scientists other than trying to express my respect for them and their methods.
Talk about needing an objective approach and an open mind, my uncle, an electrochemist, was delegated the task of investigating cold fusion for the US government. Skeptical or not, he did his job.
- Scott
Posted by ricker on January 14, 2009, at 18:54:27
In reply to How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 10:44:23
> How much do we really know to say that we know?
No more than a cancer patient needs...or wants to know about their treatment.
>
> I know enough to know that I don't know what causes depression.Welcome to the club.
>
> I know enough to know that I don't know how antidepressants work.Again, why do you need to know how they work?
>
> I feel fortunate that I know enough to know how much it is that I don't know.OK
>
> Are we really smarter than the neuroscientists? They claim not to know what many of us claim we do know.I would begin to worry if I thought, for one minute, I was smarter than the people that make my pills!
>
> Are we smart enough to recognize that which is merely conjecture on our part, and not fact?Depends on how stable we are...at the moment.
>
> How do I know?
>
> I don't.
>Again, why the need to know? The majority of all other illness's are treated.... some with much success, without the patient ever asking what their red, orange or yellow pill is doing.
They are content with the fact they're in remission. The mere fact that some people with mental disorders ruminate so much only confirms they're illness.... no matter how educated they are.
It's not out of ignorance that I can't recite every psychiatric med and it's pharmacology. Only when I'm not stable, obsessing about my mental state, is when I neurotically scour the Internet, looking for the magic pill.
I'm not suggesting it's unhealthy to educate one self with their meds, but, I believe there is a difference between that and living in front of a computer with the intent of making that miraculous discovery that thousands of well paid and educated scientists have attempted.
The more I know about psychiatric medicine, the sicker I am, or am becoming. Sad, but true, for me anyway.
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 19:34:38
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by ricker on January 14, 2009, at 18:54:27
Ricker how I relate to your last statement. Love Phillipa
Posted by uncouth on January 14, 2009, at 19:53:58
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by ricker on January 14, 2009, at 18:54:27
I know that right now, I feel like things are hopeless, and that my life is a failure, and that I'll never find anyone to love me, and that I've squandered every opportunity that i've ever gotten, and that i'm spending too much time thinking about myself, and that i'm self-absorbed in my own depression by even writing these words, and I feel like i'd rather die than live a life that's going to feel like this most of the time, and I know that the constant thoughts: of my own funeral, of killing myself with a rope on my bed, of writing a suicide note that goes on and on, and writing the content in my head during the day, I know that all of this, all of this, can be responsive to medicine, the right medicine, but that it takes time for medicine to work, and that i must endure this level of suffering, and the suffering over the suffering itself, and the pain of ruminating over the pain, and of the special shame of knowing that ruminating over the depression feels better than sometimes picking yourself up and doing something positive. I know I must endure all of this because someday, somehow, I will find the right combination that will give me my life back.
What sort of life it will give me back, i'm not sure, and it scares me when I think about my old life, and my potentially new life, and how they may be very different.
And that's why I don't go through with what my mind obsesses about all the time when things get very bad (as they are right now).
So that's what I know, and that's all I know. Everything else (tianeptine's a miracle! parnate's the key! ssri's are the devil's work!) i'm deciding to be less judgemental about, trust my doctor more, and stop using myself as a guinea pig.
-Uncouth, trying to hold on tightly in the face of immense pain, sadness, regret, sorrows, fears, and heartbreak. (Somehow all of this can exist at the same time). Please pray for me, the next week is going to be difficult (in the middle of my 14 day washout from Parnate before I try pristiq).
Posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 20:32:22
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know, posted by uncouth on January 14, 2009, at 19:53:58
I'd say to talk is better than not to talk.
That this board is to share not only personal experiences, but ideas and gleanings from the web.
That no one is claiming to be a neuroscientist.
That bad or false ideas will be swatted down.
That posters should post responsibly.
And that, as Dr. Bob says at the top of the page: "Don't necessarily believe everything you hear. Your mileage may vary. The only posts I take responsibility for are my own. In a crisis, please also get help in person. It's good to give as well as to receive. What you say may conceivably be used against you."
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 21:12:02
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know, posted by uncouth on January 14, 2009, at 19:53:58
Uncouth hang on so you're switching from parnate to pristig? Are you will family or someone? Please call for help is find yourself unable to cope. I care. Love Phillipa
Posted by uncouth on January 14, 2009, at 22:24:29
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know » uncouth, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 21:12:02
thanks. yes with family. yes, it is hard. trying to cope, trying to push all those regrets, bad memories, sadness, feelings of failure back in the bottle as best i can.
at all parts of the spectrum, and at all ratings on the 1 - 10 mood scale, this is a horrible illness.
when i've been "better" i'm never really "well". does anyone actually ever get "well"? or is "better" the best I can ever hope for in my life.
Posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 7:21:21
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know, posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 20:32:22
> I'd say to talk is better than not to talk.
Important point. That shines a special light on the subject for me. Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 9:17:32
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know, posted by uncouth on January 14, 2009, at 19:53:58
> I know that right now, I feel like things are hopeless, and that my life is a failure, and that I'll never find anyone to love me, and that I've squandered every opportunity that i've ever gotten,
It is crucial that you maintain the insight that this is "right now" and that you "feel" like things are hopeless. Right now, I feel the same way. During my switch from one drug to another, I have had my depression gradually return.
What you did here is courageous and healthy:
> and that i'm spending too much time thinking about myself, and that i'm self-absorbed in my own depression by even writing these words, and I feel like i'd rather die than live a life that's going to feel like this most of the time, and I know that the constant thoughts: of my own funeral, of killing myself with a rope on my bed, of writing a suicide note that goes on and on, and writing the content in my head during the day, I know that all of this, all of this, can be responsive to medicine, the right medicine, but that it takes time for medicine to work, and that i must endure this level of suffering, and the suffering over the suffering itself, and the pain of ruminating over the pain, and of the special shame of knowing that ruminating over the depression feels better than sometimes picking yourself up and doing something positive. I know I must endure all of this
God bless your positive resolve:
> because someday, somehow, I will find the right combination that will give me my life back.
> What sort of life it will give me back, i'm not sure, and it scares me when I think about my old life, and my potentially new life, and how they may be very different.
The uncertainty can be scary and exciting at the same time. The real unknown is, "Who is Me? Who am I and what am I like without the depression that I am so familiar with? How will it feel? How will I behave? What decisions will I make? Will I really have the power to build a happy life?"
> So that's what I know, and that's all I know. Everything else (tianeptine's a miracle! parnate's the key! ssri's are the devil's work!) i'm deciding to be less judgemental about, trust my doctor more, and stop using myself as a guinea pig.
Gosh. What huge insights!
> -Uncouth, trying to hold on tightly in the face of immense pain, sadness, regret, sorrows, fears, and heartbreak. (Somehow all of this can exist at the same time). Please pray for me, the next week is going to be difficult (in the middle of my 14 day washout from Parnate before I try pristiq).
I will indeed pray for you.
- Scott
Posted by uncouth on January 15, 2009, at 9:41:29
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know » uncouth, posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 9:17:32
thank you, scott. your msg was a good way to start my morning.
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2009, at 19:44:55
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know, posted by uncouth on January 15, 2009, at 9:41:29
Feeling more positive? I hope so. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2009, at 19:46:24
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know » uncouth, posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 9:17:32
Scott truly sorry. What will you do go back to previous meds? Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 19:52:56
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know » SLS, posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2009, at 19:46:24
I am on exactly the right drugs. I just need a dosage adjustment. I need to be patient, though. I doubt my doctor will simply take my word for it that I need a 100% increase. So I will be relegated to suffer from a cautious and logical set of decisions made by a great doctor.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2009, at 21:18:31
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know » Phillipa, posted by SLS on January 15, 2009, at 19:52:56
Scott that makes me feel better. Love Phillipa
Posted by Elanor Roosevelt on January 15, 2009, at 22:03:09
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know? » seldomseen, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 18:44:37
scientists "do" science
this is not the same as studying what other people have done
the world of psychology struggled to be recognized as a science
but 4 year old kids are better scientists because they are exploring the world and constructing their own knowledge
knowing what you don't know is so very important
and a good motivator
and professionals feel like that would be a sign of weakness
Posted by Neal on January 16, 2009, at 13:48:52
In reply to How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 10:44:23
>
> I feel fortunate that I know enough to know how much it is that I don't know.
>Scott- This is wisdom. It took me a long time to get there, to pass through the stage of, "I know a lot".
So much more to understand, to read, to experience.
Thanks for your contributions.
Posted by SLS on January 16, 2009, at 14:21:39
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know? » SLS, posted by Neal on January 16, 2009, at 13:48:52
>
> >
> > I feel fortunate that I know enough to know how much it is that I don't know.
> >
>
> Scott- This is wisdom. It took me a long time to get there, to pass through the stage of, "I know a lot".
>
> So much more to understand, to read, to experience.
>
> Thanks for your contributions.
Thanks for your kind words.I spent some time in the waiting room of my doctor's office today, perusing a copy of _The_British_Journal_Of_Psychiatry_. I was BLOWN AWAY by the level of knowledge and sophistication of understanding of the authors who wrote the various papers. That stuff was WAY beyond me. It was disconcerting to realize that I knew even less than I thought I had, but, at the same time, it was reassuring to me that the pace of progress in neuroscience and psychiatry is greater than I could possibly keep up with. This was not true 20-25 years ago. I could keep up with just about everything then.
- Scott
Posted by Vincent_QC on January 16, 2009, at 14:32:17
In reply to How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 10:44:23
> How much do we really know to say that we know?
>
> I know enough to know that I don't know what causes depression.
>
> I know enough to know that I don't know how antidepressants work.
>
> I feel fortunate that I know enough to know how much it is that I don't know.
>
> Are we really smarter than the neuroscientists? They claim not to know what many of us claim we do know.
>
> Are we smart enough to recognize that which is merely conjecture on our part, and not fact?
>
> How do I know?
>
> I don't.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>My god Scott...that's so...so logical...;-)
Posted by Elanor Roosevelt on January 16, 2009, at 22:27:00
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by Vincent_QC on January 16, 2009, at 14:32:17
jane wagner claims "reality is just a collective hunch?"
Posted by Neal on January 19, 2009, at 20:05:44
In reply to Re: How much do we really know to say that we know, posted by Elanor Roosevelt on January 16, 2009, at 22:27:00
I read somewhere some psychiatrist said:
"Most people are insane some of the day".
"Some people are insane most of the day".
____________________________
Not endorsing just passing it along.
Posted by sissy35 on January 20, 2009, at 21:35:33
In reply to How much do we really know to say that we know?, posted by SLS on January 14, 2009, at 10:44:23
My personal belief is that we were put on this earth to learn. If I ever lost the interest to continue to learn and grow than my time would be up.
Sissy
This is the end of the thread.
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