![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 5, 2008, at 13:28:50
IT will be nice if someone here experienced insomnia on Nardil?
I taked Nardil 3 months in the begining of 2007, 90mg/day, but I never feel the NE or DA effects on it because I was on a high dose of Rivotril (Clonazepam)at that time , 8mg/day...I had to stop the nardil because of the hypotension problem and syncope...
Now I restart it 2 weeks ago. I'm now at only 30 mg/day and I feel a lot the NE and DA effect of it, and for someone who is anxious and do social phobia, that's not good at all.
One thing change for the 2007 try and the 2008 try, it's the fact that I take only 20mg/day of Valium (Diazepam), so nothing to slow down my anxiety level. That's my explanation about why I can feel the exciting side effects of Nardil now and not before...
Now i'm back in the Nardil boat but with more experiences and tools...I have an antidote(pills) just in case I do an hypersensitive crisis and I have also another pill that I Take everyday for the hypotension prevention, I ask it before my hypotension problem kick back in...since I already feel a little bit of hypotension, even if i'm only at 30 mg/day...
So that's my question, for peoples who take Nardil and had insomnia at first, what did you do?
I go see my doctor this week and he give to me the new Seroquel XR (quetiapine in extended release), 50mg that I have to take at 7pm at night...and he change also my valium (Diazepam) 20mg/day to Ativan (Lorazepam) 8mg/day...
I take this new combo with my nardil since 2 days, and of course I sleep more...I had before 2-3 hours in a row max of sleep by night...if I count the little nap in the afternoon...Now, I can sleep 7 hours in a row...BUT I feel really weird the day after...My head spin, normally I want to eat everything I see, now I have nausea just seing food...(good thing since I want to loose some weight)...But well...I hate that feeling...zombie feeling like I call it...
Someone know what is the best hour to take my Seroquel xr (50mg) pill a night, to avoid next morning 'hungover' feeling ??? I try to found the half-life of the new Seroquel XR and how many times he take before acheiving his more big peak in the blood...but I can't find the answer...
It's look like for now, yes I sleep more at night, but I continu to feel tired in the day, I have to drink coffee every 1 hour to stay awake...in my the fog in my head desepear only after the dinner...That's weird...
Anyway, any help will be appreciate!
Thanks!
Vincent
Posted by gardenergirl on December 5, 2008, at 13:51:46
In reply to Nardil + Insomnia (Seroquel-XR, 50mg), posted by Vincent_QC on December 5, 2008, at 13:28:50
I've always had trouble getting to sleep at night as well as maintaining an effective sleep/wake cycle. When I started Nardil, I began waking really early, usually by 4:00 a.m., and I could not get back to sleep. Ambien helps with that a great deal. I also take Provigil and do light therapy. Now, as long as I don't intentionally stay up too late, my sleep-wake cycle is pretty good.
gg
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 5, 2008, at 16:12:04
In reply to Nardil + Insomnia (Seroquel-XR, 50mg), posted by Vincent_QC on December 5, 2008, at 13:28:50
> IT will be nice if someone here experienced insomnia on Nardil?
>
> I taked Nardil 3 months in the begining of 2007, 90mg/day, but I never feel the NE or DA effects on it because I was on a high dose of Rivotril (Clonazepam)at that time , 8mg/day...I had to stop the nardil because of the hypotension problem and syncope...
>
> Now I restart it 2 weeks ago. I'm now at only 30 mg/day and I feel a lot the NE and DA effect of it, and for someone who is anxious and do social phobia, that's not good at all.
>
> One thing change for the 2007 try and the 2008 try, it's the fact that I take only 20mg/day of Valium (Diazepam), so nothing to slow down my anxiety level. That's my explanation about why I can feel the exciting side effects of Nardil now and not before...
>
> Now i'm back in the Nardil boat but with more experiences and tools...I have an antidote(pills) just in case I do an hypersensitive crisis and I have also another pill that I Take everyday for the hypotension prevention, I ask it before my hypotension problem kick back in...since I already feel a little bit of hypotension, even if i'm only at 30 mg/day...
>
> So that's my question, for peoples who take Nardil and had insomnia at first, what did you do?
>
> I go see my doctor this week and he give to me the new Seroquel XR (quetiapine in extended release), 50mg that I have to take at 7pm at night...and he change also my valium (Diazepam) 20mg/day to Ativan (Lorazepam) 8mg/day...
>
> I take this new combo with my nardil since 2 days, and of course I sleep more...I had before 2-3 hours in a row max of sleep by night...if I count the little nap in the afternoon...Now, I can sleep 7 hours in a row...BUT I feel really weird the day after...My head spin, normally I want to eat everything I see, now I have nausea just seing food...(good thing since I want to loose some weight)...But well...I hate that feeling...zombie feeling like I call it...
>
> Someone know what is the best hour to take my Seroquel xr (50mg) pill a night, to avoid next morning 'hungover' feeling ??? I try to found the half-life of the new Seroquel XR and how many times he take before acheiving his more big peak in the blood...but I can't find the answer...
>
> It's look like for now, yes I sleep more at night, but I continu to feel tired in the day, I have to drink coffee every 1 hour to stay awake...in my the fog in my head desepear only after the dinner...That's weird...
>
> Anyway, any help will be appreciate!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Vincent
I just posted such a similar topic whoops..
Hi Vincent, yes I took Nardil for 1 year and now im on Parnare because Nardil side effects.
Anyway, Seroquel XR in my opinion is a bad choice for a sleeping pill. Even the regular version leaves you like a drunken Zombie the next day. If your on XR, I bet you must feel like more of a tired zombie. If its as bad as you say, you'll need a stimulant to keep you awake and alert the next day, but thats to complicated just to be able to use seroquel xr for sleep.
I took seroquel many many times on different meds. I found the best time to take it is about 30 minutes before bed. AND only the regular release. Why would your doctor want you to be tired for 24 hours.. weird.
Seroquel adds alot of weight over time (for most people) aswell as nardil.
You;ll probably have to switch sleep meds every so often so u dont get addicted to one unique medication eg. Lunesta, halcion etc.My top choices for Nardil insomnia:
Trazodone - Its the #1 for MAOI insomnia. It is contraindicated but its still the most popular because you can take it for a long time. Lately Lunesta, Ambien, Sonata.. have been used alot just because they are new. Trazodone can make you tired the next day but it goes away after a couple weeks.
Zopiclone - its ok but leaves a horibble taste in your mouth which gets better with time.. It can be used for a bit longer then most other sleeping pills before your addicted to it. Ezopiclone(Lunesta) is the same but half the dose. Ive read its a bit more addictive cuz the potency..
I would (and do) go from the zz pills(Zolpidem, Zopiclone, Zaleplone) to the hypnotic benzo's giving each one its suggested time of use or more, I usually go more then switch. I dont think its a very good idea and im trying to find something else.. Im going to the docs today for Trazodone.
I have my post right below yours so we should get some good advise/experiences..
I remember Nardil insomnia, it sucked, I would just get up and eat all night and worry about being tired the next day. Now im on Parnate and the insomnia from this is even worse. I found the best way to sleep on nardil was STRUCTURE! Wake up, eat, bedtime, every day at the same time. with the help of a sleep aid occasionally, if i kept structured enough it was great. If only I could of stay like that...
bye4now
Posted by Phillipa on December 5, 2008, at 18:46:42
In reply to Nardil + Insomnia (Seroquel-XR, 50mg), posted by Vincent_QC on December 5, 2008, at 13:28:50
I see you've already answered questions asked on your below thread so don't have to repeat yourself. And again welcome!!!! Phillipa
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 5, 2008, at 22:53:08
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia (Seroquel-XR, 50mg) » Vincent_QC, posted by Phillipa on December 5, 2008, at 18:46:42
> I see you've already answered questions asked on your below thread so don't have to repeat yourself. And again welcome!!!! Phillipa
Hi, yes I know.. I didnt notice until I was done the post.. I do have some pretty lengthy experience with sleeping pills.. I guess I'm trying to get some real world testimonials hopefully from people on Parnate.. Thanks 4 the Welcome, I see you are a pretty big deal on this site, you should become a moderator ( I think they're called)
:)
Posted by desolationrower on December 6, 2008, at 2:26:13
In reply to Nardil + Insomnia (Seroquel-XR, 50mg), posted by Vincent_QC on December 5, 2008, at 13:28:50
In canada cyproheptadine is over the counter, and has a really short half life. You could see if that works for sleep aid.
i take trazadone but that can have hangover for some people...when i wasn't taking any sleep drug with the parnate, i'd wake up a few times during the night, go right back to sleep, but i'd wake up in the morning and get right out of bed... on the trazodone its *possible to oversleep, although i can get up easily too, but i am not wide awake as without i was. i woudl have prefered the cyproheptadine but my pdoc wanted to prescribe trazodone, and it didn't seem like a big deal to me, the trazodone works well
-d/r
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 6, 2008, at 8:16:39
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia (Seroquel-XR, 50mg) » Vincent_QC, posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 5, 2008, at 16:12:04
> I just posted such a similar topic whoops..
> Hi Vincent, yes I took Nardil for 1 year and now im on Parnare because Nardil side effects.
> Anyway, Seroquel XR in my opinion is a bad choice for a sleeping pill. Even the regular version leaves you like a drunken Zombie the next day. If your on XR, I bet you must feel like more of a tired zombie. If its as bad as you say, you'll need a stimulant to keep you awake and alert the next day, but thats to complicated just to be able to use seroquel xr for sleep.
> I took seroquel many many times on different meds. I found the best time to take it is about 30 minutes before bed. AND only the regular release. Why would your doctor want you to be tired for 24 hours.. weird.Thanks for the answer...
You're all right...I do my own test... I take one 50mg/xr pill and cut it in half and I crush it until it was all in podwer. I put it in a capsule and I take it 30 minutes before bedtime. I sleep 7 hours, wake up with no side effect from the Seroquel...my brains was a little bit in the fog for 10 minutes, that's normal, but nothing if I compare it to the 2 nights before where I take a 50 mg/pill of Seroquel XR at night...
I see my psychiatrist next tuesday and I will ask to have the normal formulation of 25 mg of Seroquel.
I wonder why my family doctor give me the XR version of it, since it's stay a long time in the blood stream....yes, maybe it's goor for someone who need to have stable medication in his blood to treat schizo or mood disorder...but just as a sleep aid??? That's not a good idea...
> Seroquel adds alot of weight over time (for most people) aswell as nardil.
> You;ll probably have to switch sleep meds every so often so u dont get addicted to one unique medication eg. Lunesta, halcion etc.
>
> My top choices for Nardil insomnia:
>
> Trazodone - Its the #1 for MAOI insomnia. It is contraindicated but its still the most popular because you can take it for a long time. Lately Lunesta, Ambien, Sonata.. have been used alot just because they are new. Trazodone can make you tired the next day but it goes away after a couple weeks.
>
> Zopiclone - its ok but leaves a horibble taste in your mouth which gets better with time.. It can be used for a bit longer then most other sleeping pills before your addicted to it. Ezopiclone(Lunesta) is the same but half the dose. Ive read its a bit more addictive cuz the potency..
>
> I would (and do) go from the zz pills(Zolpidem, Zopiclone, Zaleplone) to the hypnotic benzo's giving each one its suggested time of use or more, I usually go more then switch. I dont think its a very good idea and im trying to find something else.. Im going to the docs today for Trazodone.Well I post also something about the ZZZZZZ benzos drugs...it was about the fact that they are not very good for insomnia problems...In fact, drugs like Ambient, Zopiclone, Solpidem, name it...are just regular anxiolytic drugs, like Valium, Rivotril or Ativan...
For someone who never toutch a benzo drug to help him with anxiety or social phobia, that's can be a good point to start if you have some insomnia...but for someone like me, who take more than 8mg of Rivotril by day for a couple of years, and more than 12 mg/day of Xanax...I can assure you that the 15mg Zopiclone pills will not do anything to help you to sleep or stay asleep because my gaba brains are used to the hypnotic effect of these drugs...It's why my only options are in the "Antipsychotic drugs or Desyrel(Trazodone)...
My family doc and my psychiatrist don't want to prescribe to me the Trazodone as a sleep aid, because of a possible serotonin syndrome...it's why my family doc choose the seroquel option...but I still wondering why the XR formulation and not the regular one...
For the weight gain, we are all different...I always gain weight on drugs...The only one I uses a long time and where I never take any pound, was the Topamax (Topiramate )...but it cause more cognitive problems than anything else... But all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, anticonvulsives or mood stabilizer drugs give me a lot of weight gain...non wonder why, I feel always hungry...it seem that the only time when I don't feel anxious is when I eat...after it's another thing...I feel guilty because I eat and I gain weight...that'a a very bad never ending circle...I hate that...In one hand you feel more well with the pills (less anxious, less of social phobia and generalised anxiety...) but on others side more overstress about my physical apparence , loose of my self-esteem...that's bad...
> I remember Nardil insomnia, it sucked, I would just get up and eat all night and worry about being tired the next day. Now im on Parnate and the insomnia from this is even worse. I found the best way to sleep on nardil was STRUCTURE! Wake up, eat, bedtime, every day at the same time. with the help of a sleep aid occasionally, if i kept structured enough it was great. If only I could of stay like that...
> bye4now
>I never had a good sleep structure...As a kid and teenager, I was smooking "weeds" to be able to sleep...I do this from 13yo to 20 yo... If I was out of stock for 1 night , it was a nightmare and I was not able to sleep at all...When I stop smooking weeds, It take more than 1 year before I was able to fall asleep in less than 30 minutes...
I worked 10 years at night, so I was able to sleep just 2 or 3 hours an return to work after for another day...doing this 4 or 5 days in a row and after had a good nights of sleep (8hours)to recuperate...
For the Parnate, all I can say is that I can't tolerate it at all...I do only 4 days on 10-20mg day and it was horrible...I was feeling like on speed...but with a big lack of energy at the same time, like I wanted to sleep, but I was too over stress to being able to sleep...I was extemely nervous... I think we all have ours reactions on diverses drugs..I mean, for myself, I'm overstress, with general anxiety, social phobia , depression and a panic attack problems...I need a drug who will calm me , not something who will activiting me... In this regard, Nardil is just on the limit...probably because of his NE and DA action...forget about the GABA action cause i'm already addicted to benzodiazepines so it will not act on the gaba receptors...
But this is another subject...for now I just say thanks to you... ;-) Have a nice day!
Posted by desolationrower on December 6, 2008, at 15:37:07
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008', posted by Vincent_QC on December 6, 2008, at 8:16:39
Some of hte benefit of phenelzine & gaba transaminase might be with the gabab receptors, which aren't affected by benzos.
-d/r
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 6, 2008, at 16:48:41
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008', posted by Vincent_QC on December 6, 2008, at 8:16:39
> > I just posted such a similar topic whoops..
> > Hi Vincent, yes I took Nardil for 1 year and now im on Parnare because Nardil side effects.
> > Anyway, Seroquel XR in my opinion is a bad choice for a sleeping pill. Even the regular version leaves you like a drunken Zombie the next day. If your on XR, I bet you must feel like more of a tired zombie. If its as bad as you say, you'll need a stimulant to keep you awake and alert the next day, but thats to complicated just to be able to use seroquel xr for sleep.
> > I took seroquel many many times on different meds. I found the best time to take it is about 30 minutes before bed. AND only the regular release. Why would your doctor want you to be tired for 24 hours.. weird.
>
> Thanks for the answer...
>
> You're all right...I do my own test... I take one 50mg/xr pill and cut it in half and I crush it until it was all in podwer. I put it in a capsule and I take it 30 minutes before bedtime. I sleep 7 hours, wake up with no side effect from the Seroquel...my brains was a little bit in the fog for 10 minutes, that's normal, but nothing if I compare it to the 2 nights before where I take a 50 mg/pill of Seroquel XR at night...
>
> I see my psychiatrist next tuesday and I will ask to have the normal formulation of 25 mg of Seroquel.
>
> I wonder why my family doctor give me the XR version of it, since it's stay a long time in the blood stream....yes, maybe it's goor for someone who need to have stable medication in his blood to treat schizo or mood disorder...but just as a sleep aid??? That's not a good idea...
>
> > Seroquel adds alot of weight over time (for most people) aswell as nardil.
> > You;ll probably have to switch sleep meds every so often so u dont get addicted to one unique medication eg. Lunesta, halcion etc.
> >
> > My top choices for Nardil insomnia:
> >
> > Trazodone - Its the #1 for MAOI insomnia. It is contraindicated but its still the most popular because you can take it for a long time. Lately Lunesta, Ambien, Sonata.. have been used alot just because they are new. Trazodone can make you tired the next day but it goes away after a couple weeks.
> >
> > Zopiclone - its ok but leaves a horibble taste in your mouth which gets better with time.. It can be used for a bit longer then most other sleeping pills before your addicted to it. Ezopiclone(Lunesta) is the same but half the dose. Ive read its a bit more addictive cuz the potency..
> >
> > I would (and do) go from the zz pills(Zolpidem, Zopiclone, Zaleplone) to the hypnotic benzo's giving each one its suggested time of use or more, I usually go more then switch. I dont think its a very good idea and im trying to find something else.. Im going to the docs today for Trazodone.
>
> Well I post also something about the ZZZZZZ benzos drugs...it was about the fact that they are not very good for insomnia problems...In fact, drugs like Ambient, Zopiclone, Solpidem, name it...are just regular anxiolytic drugs, like Valium, Rivotril or Ativan...
>
> For someone who never toutch a benzo drug to help him with anxiety or social phobia, that's can be a good point to start if you have some insomnia...but for someone like me, who take more than 8mg of Rivotril by day for a couple of years, and more than 12 mg/day of Xanax...I can assure you that the 15mg Zopiclone pills will not do anything to help you to sleep or stay asleep because my gaba brains are used to the hypnotic effect of these drugs...It's why my only options are in the "Antipsychotic drugs or Desyrel(Trazodone)...
>
> My family doc and my psychiatrist don't want to prescribe to me the Trazodone as a sleep aid, because of a possible serotonin syndrome...it's why my family doc choose the seroquel option...but I still wondering why the XR formulation and not the regular one...
>
> For the weight gain, we are all different...I always gain weight on drugs...The only one I uses a long time and where I never take any pound, was the Topamax (Topiramate )...but it cause more cognitive problems than anything else... But all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, anticonvulsives or mood stabilizer drugs give me a lot of weight gain...non wonder why, I feel always hungry...it seem that the only time when I don't feel anxious is when I eat...after it's another thing...I feel guilty because I eat and I gain weight...that'a a very bad never ending circle...I hate that...In one hand you feel more well with the pills (less anxious, less of social phobia and generalised anxiety...) but on others side more overstress about my physical apparence , loose of my self-esteem...that's bad...
>
> > I remember Nardil insomnia, it sucked, I would just get up and eat all night and worry about being tired the next day. Now im on Parnate and the insomnia from this is even worse. I found the best way to sleep on nardil was STRUCTURE! Wake up, eat, bedtime, every day at the same time. with the help of a sleep aid occasionally, if i kept structured enough it was great. If only I could of stay like that...
> > bye4now
> >
>
> I never had a good sleep structure...As a kid and teenager, I was smooking "weeds" to be able to sleep...I do this from 13yo to 20 yo... If I was out of stock for 1 night , it was a nightmare and I was not able to sleep at all...When I stop smooking weeds, It take more than 1 year before I was able to fall asleep in less than 30 minutes...
>
> I worked 10 years at night, so I was able to sleep just 2 or 3 hours an return to work after for another day...doing this 4 or 5 days in a row and after had a good nights of sleep (8hours)to recuperate...
>
> For the Parnate, all I can say is that I can't tolerate it at all...I do only 4 days on 10-20mg day and it was horrible...I was feeling like on speed...but with a big lack of energy at the same time, like I wanted to sleep, but I was too over stress to being able to sleep...I was extemely nervous... I think we all have ours reactions on diverses drugs..I mean, for myself, I'm overstress, with general anxiety, social phobia , depression and a panic attack problems...I need a drug who will calm me , not something who will activiting me... In this regard, Nardil is just on the limit...probably because of his NE and DA action...forget about the GABA action cause i'm already addicted to benzodiazepines so it will not act on the gaba receptors...
>
> But this is another subject...for now I just say thanks to you... ;-) Have a nice day!
>
Hey, you know, between me and you I think we have very similar disorders. My Psych's (had a few) like to say Im Bipolar and it causes the anxiety when I get bad. I do have bipolar2 im not arguing with that but I also am damn sure Social Phobia fits me like a glove with panic attacks leading to agoraphobia and finally depression and alcohol. I wanted to let you know and anyone else who reads this that you are right about the ZZZ drugs and benzo hypnotics. Like you Ive been on Zanax, Ativan, Clonazepam etc So The hypnotic benzos dont work nor do the zzz's except as an anxiolytic. If I take a Very high dose of them I can sleep but whats the use in abusing them, probably will cause more bad then good. eg. Takes about 37.5mgs+ of zopiclone for me to sleep and about 150mg of Temazepam to make them hypnotic, not too sweet. I ve got a bit of a hypothesis on Parnate for anxiety. It seems that when taken in very high dosages 60-200mg/day it can work excellent for many people as an anxyolytic. Im not too sure why yet but im thinking because it hits hard on NE/Epineph/DA below 60mg and when you go higher It begins really working on Seratonin and other antianxiety neurons. Well its what Im trying as Nardil didnt work and im almost on my last resort..
Thanks for your post, made me think.
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 7, 2008, at 7:38:29
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008', posted by desolationrower on December 6, 2008, at 15:37:07
> Some of hte benefit of phenelzine & gaba transaminase might be with the gabab receptors, which aren't affected by benzos.
>
> -d/rBenzo work with the gaba receptors...no gaba receptors on the neurons, no calm effect!!!
I think you never take the time to read the Dr. Ashton book about the action of the benzos and how they work on the brains???
The Ashton doctor do a lot or research on the subject:
"The way in which GABA sends its inhibitory message is by a clever electronic device. Its reaction with special sites (GABA-receptors) on the outside of the receiving neuron opens a channel, allowing negatively charged particles (chloride ions) to pass to the inside of the neuron. These negative ions "supercharge" the neuron making it less responsive to other neurotransmitters which would normally excite it. Benzodiazepines also react at their own special sites (benzodiazepine receptors), situated actually on the GABA-receptor. Combination of a benzodiazepine at this site acts as a booster to the actions of GABA, allowing more chloride ions to enter the neuron, making it even more resistant to excitation. Various subtypes of benzodiazepine receptors have slightly different actions. One subtype (alpha 1) is responsible for sedative effects, another (alpha 2) for anti-anxiety effects, and both alpha 1 and alpha 2, as well as alpha 5, for anticonvulsant effects. All benzodiazepines combine, to a greater or lesser extent, with all these subtypes and all enhance GABA activity in the brain.
As a consequence of the enhancement of GABA's inhibitory activity caused by benzodiazepines, the brain's output of excitatory neurotransmitters, including norepinephrine (noradrenaline), serotonin, acetyl choline and dopamine, is reduced. Such excitatory neurotransmitters are necessary for normal alertness, memory, muscle tone and co-ordination, emotional responses, endocrine gland secretions, heart rate and blood pressure control and a host of other functions, all of which may be impaired by benzodiazepines. Other benzodiazepine receptors, not linked to GABA, are present in the kidney, colon, blood cells and adrenal cortex and these may also be affected by some benzodiazepines. These direct and indirect actions are responsible for the well-known adverse effects of dosage with benzodiazepines."
The processus with the Nardil gaba effect and the Benzo gaba effect is not very different but is less powerfull. Nardil elevates brain levels of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)...So more Gaba in the brain, mean more anxiolytic and calm effect of the person...but Nardil don't blok the ion channel like the Dr. Ashton explain...so it's why it's less potent and addictive...Nardil or others anticonvulsives drugs seem to not change the structure of the neurons, especially the gaba sites on the neurons...but the benzo drugs and all the ZZZ drugs to sleep do it and boost the normal processus of the gaba actions on the neurons and also the gaba site receptors on the neurons...this action seem to kill the gaba receptors, so you need more and more benzo drugs to reach good neurons with good gaba sites alive to absorb them...And it's a never ending circle...Some Doctors think that's impossible that the benzo drugs destroy the gaba receptors on a neurons...even is you abuse them, but others said that too much gaba in the brains make a change in the structure ot the neurons and the gaba recptors on the neurons just stop answering to the gaba message...
The same thing apply with the anticonvulsive drugs like Gabapentin, Lyrica, Neurontin...they all do the kind of effect that do the Nardil on the Gaba...it's probably why they are often prescribe with regular IRSS...to encheance the gaba effects on the neurons... But that processus don't work with everyone, and peoples who take benzo drugs for a long time seem to not response at all at this new kinds of anticonvulsives drugs.
Like I always say, too much is not necessary more good!!!... I'm not against the benzo drug, for now I take more than 8mg/ativa by day and also my valiums pills 20 mg...i'm not suppose but I feel really overstress...but I know that I Will have another month or more of bad side effects and cognitives problems when I will stop the Ativan pills...i'm like that...If I give too much benzo to my brains, the seems to lost their heads!!! hahaha
A good likn about the benzo :
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 8, 2008, at 17:30:43
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » Vincent_QC, posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 6, 2008, at 16:48:41
> >
> Hey, you know, between me and you I think we have very similar disorders. My Psych's (had a few) like to say Im Bipolar and it causes the anxiety when I get bad. I do have bipolar2 im not arguing with that but I also am damn sure Social Phobia fits me like a glove with panic attacks leading to agoraphobia and finally depression and alcohol. I wanted to let you know and anyone else who reads this that you are right about the ZZZ drugs and benzo hypnotics. Like you Ive been on Zanax, Ativan, Clonazepam etc So The hypnotic benzos dont work nor do the zzz's except as an anxiolytic. If I take a Very high dose of them I can sleep but whats the use in abusing them, probably will cause more bad then good. eg. Takes about 37.5mgs+ of zopiclone for me to sleep and about 150mg of Temazepam to make them hypnotic, not too sweet. I ve got a bit of a hypothesis on Parnate for anxiety. It seems that when taken in very high dosages 60-200mg/day it can work excellent for many people as an anxyolytic. Im not too sure why yet but im thinking because it hits hard on NE/Epineph/DA below 60mg and when you go higher It begins really working on Seratonin and other antianxiety neurons. Well its what Im trying as Nardil didnt work and im almost on my last resort..
> Thanks for your post, made me think.
>I find also that we have similar problems but I was never diagnosticed as a bipolar...Cause my mood don't change regulary and don't seem to have a cycle...I can be 3 years without anything, no depression, no social phobia, no panic attack, I admit that I always feel disconnected with the reallity...I never feel like I was like the others people aroud me. Some kind of detached feeling....that's weird...But when the depression and the social phobia hit me, like it does 2 years ago, it's seem that's it never will fade away...
To do a short story...my main problem is social phobia, general anxiety with a panick attack problem and agoraphobia....the depression seem to appear only after a couple of months because I can't cure all this problems...
Look at the new thread of today , you will see that I drop again the Nardil...because I was feeling just like sh*t on it, in fact, I only do 4 days on Parnate and I stop it because I had a lot of panic attacks...I was thinking that it was causing by the Parnate, but now I realise that it was not it...It was probably all the things around it, the fact that I want to be on a strict diet of proteine shake to loose all the weight I gain on the 2 months of Cipralex I had before, the diet seem to give me another source of problem, cause in my first try of Nardil, 3 months at 90mg/day, I had severe hypotension leaving me with syncope sometimes and a worse social intteraction than before I begin the Nardil...The only explaination the doctor give to me was that the Gaba effect of the Nardil was not working on me because I was addicted to benzos...so it's now just a antidepressant for me who hit the DA, NE and SE...nothing else...
My new psychiatrist put me again on Nardil 2 weeks ago, 15mg/day...and I was feeling like I was loosing my times...so I take 30 mg/day more faster than he wanted...and at 30 mg/day I already begin to feel the same bad sensation of hypotension I had before... + now BIG insomnia problem...I never sleep a long time since 2 years, maximum 4 hours in a row..but now it's maybe 2 hours max...So I ask my family doctor last week to give me something to sleep ...He said try the new Seroquel XR...50 mg at night and you will sleep like a baby...hummmm he forget to mention that I will feel like a zombie the day after, with nauseas, difficulty to speak and stay on my feets...very agressive and impulsive with no patience...I think I prefer to not sleep and feel tired all day long than being like this...and I was feeling detached from the reality...not in the real time...I don't know if you understand me...you know, when you do a panic attack, the derpersonalisation thing...you feel out of your bodie and you fear to loose the control of yourself...it's how I was feeling the day after the Seroquel...
I see my psychiatrist tomorrow...Do you think it will be a great idea to ask him to put me back on Parnate??? I never do more than 4 days on it...I should give it a try...
Since you're on it, did the panic attack and stimulating effect fade away with time or I will feel extremely anxious on it??? My new psychiatrist is slow on prescription and to up the dose...it seem that with him, I will be able only to reach the 30 mg/day...that's not enought...I think...
Did you think that having 3 years of well being, and 2 years of sh*tty life, on and on, can be a Bipolar problem? Maybe I have just a more slow cycle than a normal bipolar???
You can trust me, I try everything...except Lithium, Lamictal, Manerix (not avaible in the USA, it's a reversible MAOI but don't work on social phobia), and the newer antipsychotic Geodon...Zeldox in Canada...
I'm so confusing...I fear that the new psychiatrist will remove everything I take and leave me like this...That's hard to handle...I feel very confusing and lost...So lost that last evening I do a car accident...I take an exit of the highway and I loose the control of the car...I was unable to put the break or do anything..I was stuck like this... I had to pop up more than 8 mg of Ativan to calm me ...and 8 mg of Ativan is nothing for me...I take it with 40 mg of Valium at the same time... I was in schock...I just begin top feel that the Seroquel leave my blood stream slowly...my last 50 mg was SAturday night...
Now you understand my problem...I feel like i'm unstable...so maybe i'm bipolar also on the top of that??
Well thank's for your help ;-)
Bye!
Vince
Posted by desolationrower on December 8, 2008, at 23:59:05
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » desolationrower, posted by Vincent_QC on December 7, 2008, at 7:38:29
Sorry, maybe you missed what i was getting at: While both phenelzine and benzos affect the Gaba-A receptors, benzos do not affect the Gaba-B receptors. Phenelzine, by increasing gaba, does affect the gaba-b receptors, as do some other drugs, like baclofen, phenibut, that also affect anxiety levels.
-d/r
Posted by VIncent_QC on December 9, 2008, at 3:23:25
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » Vincent_QC, posted by desolationrower on December 8, 2008, at 23:59:05
Thanks for the answer...I was not aware of this... so is it possible to switch to Parnate and ask for an additionnal drug with gaba-b action like the ones you mention?
Posted by Phillipa on December 9, 2008, at 21:10:35
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » desolationrower, posted by VIncent_QC on December 9, 2008, at 3:23:25
Sounds like Parnate has Gaba B please correct me if wrong. Love Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on December 10, 2008, at 1:03:40
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » desolationrower, posted by VIncent_QC on December 9, 2008, at 3:23:25
> Thanks for the answer...I was not aware of this... so is it possible to switch to Parnate and ask for an additionnal drug with gaba-b action like the ones you mention?
use of drugs like that would be quite non-mainstream, so i think its unlikely to be prescribed...
> Sounds like Parnate has Gaba B please correct me if wrong. Love Phillipa
tcp, like some other antidepressants, upregulates the gaba-b receptor, but it doesn't directly activate it
-d/r
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 10, 2008, at 14:24:32
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » VIncent_QC, posted by Phillipa on December 9, 2008, at 21:10:35
> Sounds like Parnate has Gaba B please correct me if wrong. Love Phillipa
I really don't know....and to be honest, I think my gaba (A or B) are probably already f*ck up by all the benzos I take in my life...
I meet my pdoc again yesterday...and he put me again on Parnat insiste if the Nardil. He read in my old medical report from my family doctor that I already do 3 months on Nardil at 90 mg/day without any improve so he say that I should try the Parnate again, even if I do more panic attacks at the begining of the treatment. The target will be to reach the 60 mg/day...he said that more than this will do nothing...except add more stimulant effect and more anxiety...so the theory about taking more than 60 mg of Parnate drug and feel more anxiolytic effect are false, well that's what my pdoc said...He also refuse to give me some trazodone at the same time or augment my daily intake of valium at 30 mg like I wanted...so I stay at 20 mg, even if I feel terribly anxious and I feel the strange effect inside my head, you know, when you forget to take the benzo drug, it's like your brains begin to crave for the drug...it's a strange sensation, everytime I feel it I fear to have a seizure...and I almost do a panic attacks...That's freaking me out...i'm so tired to be addict to the valium...
He said that the next move after being stable on the 60 mg of Parnate will be to remove all the benzodiazepines I take (Valium). I don't understand why, but it's the first pdoc to tell me that benzo drugs are just sh*t and they will interfer with the effects of the Parnate or all the antidepressants drugs! He explain that the antidepressants are suppose to boost the SE, NE and DA...but at the same time, the benzos drugs just stop that effect, so it's why I probably never find a good antidepressants to help me...He said that the more fast I will withdrawl them , the more good I will feel again.
I ask him why my family doctor give me them back in 2005, if they are so bad...He said that now, the pdoc prescribe them less often, and they give it only on small period of time (4 weeks maximum)...
Anyway...I'm back on Parnate...I do more than ever insomnia, I feel really tired, so I will probably just buy some cheap sleep pills like Unisom...since I Can't find Unisom2 in Canada...One thing is sure, the Seroquel XR is so dangerous that I will never take that again...
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 11, 2008, at 17:25:53
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » ParnateStarted2008, posted by Vincent_QC on December 8, 2008, at 17:30:43
> I find also that we have similar problems but I was never diagnosticed as a bipolar...Cause my mood don't change regulary and don't seem to have a cycle...I can be 3 years without anything, no depression, no social phobia, no panic attack, I admit that I always feel disconnected with the reallity...I never feel like I was like the others people aroud me. Some kind of detached feeling....that's weird...But when the depression and the social phobia hit me, like it does 2 years ago, it's seem that's it never will fade away...
>
> To do a short story...my main problem is social phobia, general anxiety with a panick attack problem and agoraphobia....the depression seem to appear only after a couple of months because I can't cure all this problems...
>
> Look at the new thread of today , you will see that I drop again the Nardil...because I was feeling just like sh*t on it, in fact, I only do 4 days on Parnate and I stop it because I had a lot of panic attacks...I was thinking that it was causing by the Parnate, but now I realise that it was not it...It was probably all the things around it, the fact that I want to be on a strict diet of proteine shake to loose all the weight I gain on the 2 months of Cipralex I had before, the diet seem to give me another source of problem, cause in my first try of Nardil, 3 months at 90mg/day, I had severe hypotension leaving me with syncope sometimes and a worse social intteraction than before I begin the Nardil...The only explaination the doctor give to me was that the Gaba effect of the Nardil was not working on me because I was addicted to benzos...so it's now just a antidepressant for me who hit the DA, NE and SE...nothing else...
>
> My new psychiatrist put me again on Nardil 2 weeks ago, 15mg/day...and I was feeling like I was loosing my times...so I take 30 mg/day more faster than he wanted...and at 30 mg/day I already begin to feel the same bad sensation of hypotension I had before... + now BIG insomnia problem...I never sleep a long time since 2 years, maximum 4 hours in a row..but now it's maybe 2 hours max...So I ask my family doctor last week to give me something to sleep ...He said try the new Seroquel XR...50 mg at night and you will sleep like a baby...hummmm he forget to mention that I will feel like a zombie the day after, with nauseas, difficulty to speak and stay on my feets...very agressive and impulsive with no patience...I think I prefer to not sleep and feel tired all day long than being like this...and I was feeling detached from the reality...not in the real time...I don't know if you understand me...you know, when you do a panic attack, the derpersonalisation thing...you feel out of your bodie and you fear to loose the control of yourself...it's how I was feeling the day after the Seroquel...
>
> I see my psychiatrist tomorrow...Do you think it will be a great idea to ask him to put me back on Parnate??? I never do more than 4 days on it...I should give it a try...
>
> Since you're on it, did the panic attack and stimulating effect fade away with time or I will feel extremely anxious on it??? My new psychiatrist is slow on prescription and to up the dose...it seem that with him, I will be able only to reach the 30 mg/day...that's not enought...I think...
>
> Did you think that having 3 years of well being, and 2 years of sh*tty life, on and on, can be a Bipolar problem? Maybe I have just a more slow cycle than a normal bipolar???
>
> You can trust me, I try everything...except Lithium, Lamictal, Manerix (not avaible in the USA, it's a reversible MAOI but don't work on social phobia), and the newer antipsychotic Geodon...Zeldox in Canada...
>
> I'm so confusing...I fear that the new psychiatrist will remove everything I take and leave me like this...That's hard to handle...I feel very confusing and lost...So lost that last evening I do a car accident...I take an exit of the highway and I loose the control of the car...I was unable to put the break or do anything..I was stuck like this... I had to pop up more than 8 mg of Ativan to calm me ...and 8 mg of Ativan is nothing for me...I take it with 40 mg of Valium at the same time... I was in schock...I just begin top feel that the Seroquel leave my blood stream slowly...my last 50 mg was SAturday night...
>
> Now you understand my problem...I feel like i'm unstable...so maybe i'm bipolar also on the top of that??
>
> Well thank's for your help ;-)
>
> Bye!
>
> VinceHello, sorry I didnt respond earlier.
Must be a tough time for you right now.
It is really to bad that it takes time(lots maybe) to become Healthy/in remission again.There is a whole array of psychiatric drugs that can be tried off label. Personally I wouldn't go that far unless you have a VERY experienced Psychiatrist. If SSRI's, SSNRI's(effexor etc.) dont work and Nardil did not work, then yes I would try Parnate. It is 'sometimes' the only drug that works for people with anxiety disorders but usually does not work as well as the ssri's ssnri's, some TCA's, Nardil, reversible MAOI's blah blah blah on and on the list goes... As you probably know Parnate is Notorious for giving anxiety and insomnia. Your brain may be wired much differently then most other people and Parnate might be the one for you. It definitely increases many many amines. Serotonin can, and is the transimitter of choice these days to alleviate Anxiety/phobia's. Parnate increases Serotonin a lot, depending on the person. Maybe Parnate will increase Serotonin & other neurotransmitters linked to (your) anxiety in just the right way 4 you. Its All Trial And Error. If you have the STRENGTH[(it can cause horrible initial side effects like ALOT of anxiety, this can go away with time(depends on your genetc makup)] to titrate up and up in dosage each time giving it 2-4 weeks until it works, to a maximum of 60mgs/day, you will know if its right for you. If you dont feel it is helping at all, then dammit. If you dont feel better(you might feel worse) and you made it to 60mg's/day stay there for 2-4 weeks if you can tolerate the side effects, maybe you need a high dose before it works on Anxiety. Im at 70mg/day now because 60 was not quite enough(I see a councelor too). Parnate seems to work for anxiety at high doses, higher then 60mg's/day. For some it works below 60 but seldomly. Its one hell of a AD if you dont have Anxiety!
Ive taken so many meds now my brain seems to be so desensitized.. its like trying to break through a steel vault. 150mg's Seroquel doest do much anymore, but yes I sure have felt out of my body when I had a 3 hour anxiety attack driving with one of my friends.. that was my longest. pre medication and in college and stuff I would get Panic attacks all the time because of the social phobia and I was totally out of myself, probably looked like someone paralized standing up then I would get out of there and feel like such a retard.
Lots of people with Bipolar have very few depressive episodes, maybe only 1 or two in 20 years. Anxiety can be a big symptom of Bipolar and you dont have to have Mania or high's to have Bipolar. there's so many variation.. Im barely understanding my own. There's good info out there about the kinds and symptoms.
Lithium, Lamictal, Tegretal and other mood stabilizers can really boost your AD. Lithium+Lamictal/Tegretal can really keep your mood in check. I take 200mg,s of Lamictal/day and I havent had a bad episode since I started(Jully)(bad like psychotic manias).
General Practitioners(most) cant determine much of any mental illnesses, they just give you an ssri and send you on your way.. GRRR.Have you ever been hospitalized? I was once, and a 2nd time I went in on my own will. I found it hard at first but they really can help. you have nothing to loose there. Changing meds, anxiety, panic, agoraphobia, depression... You can let it all go, dont need to hold it in. nurses monitor you 24hrs a day, you meet good people with similar problems and best of all, if it works out, you will come out of there on a new med regime and feel a great accomplishment. Also you get to see your psychiatrist almost every day or every 3rd +/-
I dont like the sound of your doctor because he will only go to 30mg's parnate. I consider 60 low for me. Maybe you need to find a new psych...
I might have made things complicated in this post.. I hope it helps, just my lil bit of experience..
let me know how you are doing,
bye
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 11, 2008, at 19:28:12
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008', posted by Vincent_QC on December 10, 2008, at 14:24:32
I dont think your Pdoc is very well informed about the different techniques at tackeling Anxiety and Depression. He does have a sound technique tho. Your different like every one else. Many Many people (not most) only get the good effects of Parnate at doses above 60, sometimes WAY higher. Parnate is weird like that. FDA MAX is 60 but really... Parnate's milage varies alot. I just say this from all the post's ive read over the years, not just this site. AND 2 psychiatrists told me 60mg's isnt a very high dose! These drugs are from the 50's, we know alot more about them now. Their underutilization just keeps the standard FDA dose the same and says nothing else. Many doctors still abide exactly. Wouldn't it be great if all docs could get on the 2008 train and do a little research and see whats happening out there/here.
Tell your pdoc to read Ashton's Manual on Benzos. Your doctor is somewhat right that the faster your off benzos, the faster U wont have Benzo effects/withdrawl etc. This is not true in many cases. Slow is usually alot better. Benzos are the best first line treatment against anxiety. All these damn ssri/other AD companies are just maketing pro's trying to steal the market. I think a benzo is safer then a ssri/other AD when used properly. ssri's/ other AD's are personality changing drugs with way more side effects and withdrawl effects of their own. Personality withdrawl can be just as hard as benzo withdrawl. Im not against ssri's/AD's, they definitely have their place. But the stigma that benzos are old and rarely used because AD's are better and safer for anxiety is not right. doctors are smarter then that?
Maybe he is a great doctor, Maybe you and him arn't a good match.
I know i put alot of opinions here... just wanted to express what I thought about your post..:) Im at 70 mg's now.
Below 60 I felt OK AD effects but no anxiolytic, above 60 I do: I laugh, im happier and go lucky. Below 60 just task oriented and driven, Felt like Wellbutrin a bit.. Thats just me
keep us poster Vince
Later
Posted by Phillipa on December 11, 2008, at 20:16:51
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » Vincent_QC, posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 11, 2008, at 19:28:12
Glad you also feel the benzos are safe. I always have. Love Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 12, 2008, at 9:18:02
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » Vincent_QC, posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 11, 2008, at 19:28:12
> I dont think your Pdoc is very well informed about the different techniques at tackeling Anxiety and Depression. He does have a sound technique tho. Your different like every one else. Many Many people (not most) only get the good effects of Parnate at doses above 60, sometimes WAY higher. Parnate is weird like that. FDA MAX is 60 but really... Parnate's milage varies alot. I just say this from all the post's ive read over the years, not just this site. AND 2 psychiatrists told me 60mg's isnt a very high dose! These drugs are from the 50's, we know alot more about them now. Their underutilization just keeps the standard FDA dose the same and says nothing else. Many doctors still abide exactly. Wouldn't it be great if all docs could get on the 2008 train and do a little research and see whats happening out there/here.
>
> Tell your pdoc to read Ashton's Manual on Benzos. Your doctor is somewhat right that the faster your off benzos, the faster U wont have Benzo effects/withdrawl etc. This is not true in many cases. Slow is usually alot better. Benzos are the best first line treatment against anxiety. All these damn ssri/other AD companies are just maketing pro's trying to steal the market. I think a benzo is safer then a ssri/other AD when used properly. ssri's/ other AD's are personality changing drugs with way more side effects and withdrawl effects of their own. Personality withdrawl can be just as hard as benzo withdrawl. Im not against ssri's/AD's, they definitely have their place. But the stigma that benzos are old and rarely used because AD's are better and safer for anxiety is not right. doctors are smarter then that?
>
> Maybe he is a great doctor, Maybe you and him arn't a good match.
> I know i put alot of opinions here... just wanted to express what I thought about your post..:) Im at 70 mg's now.
> Below 60 I felt OK AD effects but no anxiolytic, above 60 I do: I laugh, im happier and go lucky. Below 60 just task oriented and driven, Felt like Wellbutrin a bit.. Thats just me
> keep us poster Vince
> Later
>Thanks for the answer mister ParnateStarted2008 ;-)
For your information, I live in the Canada, mean that the medical system here is Public, we don't pay for the Hospital or to see a Doctor. So we have no choice over the pdoc or family doctor we get, or even the medical care we get, everyone have the same quality of service and we have to WAIT and WAIT a long time before seeing a doctor or a pdoc.
So, yes, last summer I go by myself to the emergency of the regular hospital, since we can't go directly to the psychiatrist hospital, we have to go to the emergency and see a psychiatrist there and wait in a close room with others people, when they find a place to "dispatch" you, at the psychiatrist hospital, you move there...but sometimes it's a long process...and I was not interrested to wait 3 weeks in this close room... I was on more than 12mg/day of Xanax, I was unable to speak, I was totally lost, I was at the same time on 337.5 mg/day of Effexor-xr... I had to wait 3 days in that close room, with others people with worse conditions than mine... I had no right to go outside even just to smooke a cigarette, I had to put a nicotine patch, I had no right to have people visiting me...I had to wait my place at the psychiatrist hospital...After 3 days, In the middle of the night, I just sing a paper telling that I was refusing to receive my treatment and I return to my home...I see my family doctor the morning after, we do a withdrawl cedule of the Xanax, a slow reduction cedule, He give to me some "Mirtaprazine" (Remeron) to help me to sleep, and I do my withdrawl alone at home...and It was the worst period of my life... It take more than 2 months before I begin to feel more well...Cutting the Xanax pills in small pieces was just a loose of time...I ask my family doctor to put me again on Valium at the stade of 2 mg/day of Xanax. I withdrawl fast from the Xanax, a lot more faster than what my family doctor wanted, he said that it was dangerous to do it fast like this... I Remember that in one week I go from 12mg/day to 4 mg/day in one shoot. I had terrible withdrawl effects you can trust me on that. The psychiatrist I had at the time was on vacation for 1 month so I was not able to reach him!!!
Anyway, after that "adventure"...I meet again the pdoc I had at the time, he put me on Cipralex (Lexapro), told me that it was the most effective SSRI in the world, the most selective also for the SE, with the less side effects!!! lol Never believe a pdoc...it was the harder AD I try in my life, the one with the most side effects, I already do migraine 3 times a week, but with the Cipralex it was everyday...I gain a 40 pounds, and still gain weight and the headache never fade away also...My SE are probably a lot high cause the side effects from the cipralex don't fade away even if I stop it since 1 1/2 months now. I never felt any improve on the Cipralex (Lexapro). In fact, I lost all the interest I had in my life on it, at the end I was not able to stay 2 minutes in front of my laptop, I had no concentration at all, I had severe insomnia, more bad than usual, I was tired all day long, always lying in my bed, no motivation at all...The pdoc at the time told me to take 30mg/day of Cipralex insistead to the 20mg I was taking and I just say no!!! He add some "Ritalin" on the top of it to give me some energy but it was worst, I was just feeling more anxious, anyway coffee boost more the energy than Ritalin...he add also some Wellbutrin in the top of that...It was a crazy combo and I was so TIRED of everything that I stop cold turkey all the drugs at the end of October...
The pdoc leave his job and I was switched with the new one..So I see a new pdoc since than, at the same psychiatrist hospital, but the one I get now is one of the best I can get...he win a lot of prize every year for his work...His approach with me is normal and I feel very confident with him. I think they have all their goods and bads sides anyways...The new one seem to not like the benzo drugs, but he also read all my medical folder and he know that i'm addicted to them, so maybe it's why he want me to be free of them soon!!! I think he know more things about the benzo drugs than you and me...and BTW he know the Ashton book...He surf on the web often and it's in his favorite links...He often use it, sometimes for the charts comparaison, sometimes for the withdrawl effects...things like this...He just told me that in my case, benzo drugs can't help me anymore. More of them will just make me feel more depressive and make me feel like a zombie...and like he said, the goal to reach is not to make me feel like a zombie or being numb...
Well, I meet my pdoc last tuesday morning, I ask him about the fact that I was wondering if I was not Bipolar...I answer some questions, and he told me that I was not bipolar at all...BUT he told me that if I fail to answer to the Parnate, it will be a good things to try something like Lamictal (even if he don't like it at all, St-John syndrome or something like that...). He is not against benzo drugs, he just don't like the fact that they just act like a band-aid, without curing the main problem. It's also my decision, not just hers...And I don't want to take them all my life, cause they decrease my cognitives abilities. Since I take them (2005), I lost maybe 70% of my capacities, I mean intellectual capacities as well of my concentration level and my productivity... I don't want to be a Zombie all my life , and I prefer to have anxiety feelings sometimes than feeling just like a numb all day long. Anyway, anxiety is normal, everyone have some anxiety or stress...I just have to learn to control it...and it's what I do now on my CTB...
Like I write before, I try everything except Lithium, Lamictal and others mood stabilizers.
I always feel worse on all the SSRI's, SNRI's, a lot of the TCA's (they don't work for social phobia and anxiety...and their side effects are SO hard to support...I can't tolerate them at all...), I feel worse on all the drugs like Lyrica, Gabapentin (neurotin), Topomax, wellbutrin xr, ritalin, name them...I try everything, except the Parnate!!!So the Parnate seem to be the last ressort for now. The new Cymbalta (New in Canada, not in the USA), seem to be a less effective effexor-xr version...since I never improve on effexor-xr, in fact I always feel worse on it, remember my visit at the hospital last summer...So I think that's not worth the trial, and it cost more than 300$ by month here...I can't pay for it and I don't have insurance, so forget it...Anyway, my sister take it since it's on the market, she was on Celexa before and she don't improve at all, she have AD episodes with a lot of anxiety...it's in my familly tree. Genetic problem I think.
The main problem I have with the benzos drugs semm to be the addiction. Give me one pill of Clonazepam (Rivotril) and my brains will be craving for all the bootle at the same time, I totally lost the control on the intake of them. Since I had a street drugs and alcohol addiction in the past, I just can't control myself. You cannot blame me for this, benzo are powerfull drugs, some people don't have the addiction problem and can take them all their life, but in my case forget it. I know myself and I know I will always ask for more, even if they don't do anything now on my anxiety. I take my small amount of valium just to prevent withdrawl effects, I fear to have a seizure, and that's strange sentation in my head make me feel very anxious...
I always find it more hard to stop the more powerfull benzon like Rivotril or Xanax by reducing the dose by 10% each week than just cut more fast the dose. It's why I ask for the valium...that's more easy to stop since it stay in the blood for a long time, the smaller pill is 2mg, you can cut it in 2 parts or 4 parts...it's make it more easy to cut the dose in smallest parts. I plan to reduce my 20mg/day valium by 1 mg each weeks, but not before I get some positives answerd from the Parnate.
You see, everyone is different...you're right on this, but I read a lot about the AD drugs, and for anxiety and social phobia problems, when the AD is just a comorbidity, the MAOI's seem to be the drugs of choice. The nardil come first but the Parnate is the second choice, forget about the reversible MAOI like the Manerix (Moclobemide), that's not effective for social anxiety, no wonder why it's not approve by the FDA... My family doctor who is an expert on AD drugs tell me that it's not more effective than a regular SSRI for social and general anxiety.
The main problem with the Parnate seem to be the insomnia, not the anxiety, I know it's similar with stimulant by his structure and it's DA effect, but since i'm already anxious and I already do a lot of panic attacks, I don't see why I can feel worse on it cause the situation can't be worse than what I live now!!! For the insomnia, it's the same, I don't see why it can be a problem for me since i'm used to sleep only 2 or 3 hours by night and now I know that I can take a little bit of Unisom of Gravol or benadryl to help me to sleep, without having a SE syndrome...
Nardil was also very hard for the anxiety and the insomnia, even at 90mg/day, I was always anxious. I remember that I augment my intake of coffee and cigarettes on it also. The only good effect I get on the Nardil was the fact that I was able to reduce my intake of Clonazepam at the time, I was at 8mg/day and I go down at 4mg/day (It was in the begining of 2007, before I ask to be put on the Valium.
The Parnate seem to act the same on the anxiety side, at 10 mg at least. Finally, my pdoc will probably increase it until I reach the 60 mg...after he will see...it will depend on how I react. I will see how I will feel on 20mg...if it's worst, I will increase my dose more slowly. I have the same point of view than my pdoc now for the SLOW augmentation of the AD dosage. Before, I always wanted to go faster and I often take more pills than I was suppose, but I learn now that faster is not equal to succes...I learn my lesson.
If I well remember, Lexapro, Celexa, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and all the newer AD's are a lot more harder on the anxiety...for me at least. I don't like the fact that the FDA or Health Canada approve them and said that they are less dangerous than the oldest drugs. In fact, I find them more harder on side-effects.
Anyway , it's my point of view. Thanks for the advise...I hope I will react good on the Parnate. I continue to think that it will not be more hard for the anxiety than all the newer drugs. I think my brain don't react like others people, maybe a more stimulant drug will help more, maybe not, I just don't want to start me Parnate treatment with negatives thinks...
I will keep you inform of the situation.
Thanks again!
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 12, 2008, at 17:02:05
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » ParnateStarted2008, posted by Vincent_QC on December 12, 2008, at 9:18:02
> > I dont think your Pdoc is very well informed about the different techniques at tackeling Anxiety and Depression. He does have a sound technique tho. Your different like every one else. Many Many people (not most) only get the good effects of Parnate at doses above 60, sometimes WAY higher. Parnate is weird like that. FDA MAX is 60 but really... Parnate's milage varies alot. I just say this from all the post's ive read over the years, not just this site. AND 2 psychiatrists told me 60mg's isnt a very high dose! These drugs are from the 50's, we know alot more about them now. Their underutilization just keeps the standard FDA dose the same and says nothing else. Many doctors still abide exactly. Wouldn't it be great if all docs could get on the 2008 train and do a little research and see whats happening out there/here.
> >
> > Tell your pdoc to read Ashton's Manual on Benzos. Your doctor is somewhat right that the faster your off benzos, the faster U wont have Benzo effects/withdrawl etc. This is not true in many cases. Slow is usually alot better. Benzos are the best first line treatment against anxiety. All these damn ssri/other AD companies are just maketing pro's trying to steal the market. I think a benzo is safer then a ssri/other AD when used properly. ssri's/ other AD's are personality changing drugs with way more side effects and withdrawl effects of their own. Personality withdrawl can be just as hard as benzo withdrawl. Im not against ssri's/AD's, they definitely have their place. But the stigma that benzos are old and rarely used because AD's are better and safer for anxiety is not right. doctors are smarter then that?
> >
> > Maybe he is a great doctor, Maybe you and him arn't a good match.
> > I know i put alot of opinions here... just wanted to express what I thought about your post..:) Im at 70 mg's now.
> > Below 60 I felt OK AD effects but no anxiolytic, above 60 I do: I laugh, im happier and go lucky. Below 60 just task oriented and driven, Felt like Wellbutrin a bit.. Thats just me
> > keep us poster Vince
> > Later
> >
>
> Thanks for the answer mister ParnateStarted2008 ;-)Oh I have a question, maybe dumb but.. is a "pdoc" a regular family doctor or a Psychiatrist? Im guessing its a psychiatrist when people use that term.
Hi Vincent, fellow Parnate Starter. I am amazed by your story and struggles and accomplishments. Your story is extremely interesting to me. Here is a little bit about who I am:
-I live in Canada, British Columbia. I went to college in Alberta on and off over the last 6 years.
-I'm 23 years old, almost 24
-Ive had social phobia all my life
-By 17 I became agoraphobic and depressed and began my journey of medication and councelling.
-Between the age of 18-23 I have abused alcohol heavily and benzo's only a few times
-This summer I was diagnosed with Bipolar2
-I often get completely obsessed with psychotropics to 'fix/help my life' as do alot of people here I bet
Thats me in a NutShell
>
> For your information, I live in the Canada, mean that the medical system here is Public, we don't pay for the Hospital or to see a Doctor. So we have no choice over the pdoc or family doctor we get, or even the medical care we get, everyone have the same quality of service and we have to WAIT and WAIT a long time before seeing a doctor or a pdoc.
>What province are you from? I pick my doctors (family and psychiatrists) and usually give them an interview on what they treat, knowledge with my problems/medications, etc. That also alows me to see if I will get along with him/her. There are different clinics here and I can easily go to any one of them and ask which doctors are taking new patients (i've moved around here and Alberta and had many different doctors and Psychiatrists). If my doctor refers me to a Psychiatrist whom I do not like I will get refered to a different one or have CanadaMentalHaelth facilities find me one.
I'm sorry if this makes me sound spoiled, I really dont mean to do do that or to brag, but I feel the upmost sympathy for you and couldn't imagine being stuck with a doctor I dont like. Maybe its because of your province. This sounds very odd to me. I can always go to a walk in Clinic anytime and get a referral to a Psych or even ask if they are taking new patients when not doing their walk in clinic hours...>
> So, yes, last summer I go by myself to the emergency of the regular hospital, since we can't go directly to the psychiatrist hospital, we have to go to the emergency and see a psychiatrist there and wait in a close room with others people, when they find a place to "dispatch" you, at the psychiatrist hospital, you move there...but sometimes it's a long process...and I was not interrested to wait 3 weeks in this close room... I was on more than 12mg/day of Xanax, I was unable to speak, I was totally lost, I was at the same time on 337.5 mg/day of Effexor-xr... I had to wait 3 days in that close room, with others people with worse conditions than mine... I had no right to go outside even just to smooke a cigarette, I had to put a nicotine patch, I had no right to have people visiting me...I had to wait my place at the psychiatrist hospital...After 3 days, In the middle of the night, I just sing a paper telling that I was refusing to receive my treatment and I return to my home...
>Where are you.. that sounds horrible. Here I can walk straight in with a note from my psychiatrist if I need to. When I was sent without my own consent I was placed in a room by myself for 24 hours so they could monitor me, it sucked, but then im out in a new room, usually shared, and able to walk around the unit regularely untill im well enough to leave.
I feel really bad writing this because I make it sound so easy. My illness is not easy or is finding a good doctor. I've gone through hell and came back many times..I see my family doctor the morning after, we do a withdrawl cedule of the Xanax, a slow reduction cedule, He give to me some "Mirtaprazine" (Remeron) to help me to sleep, and I do my withdrawl alone at home...and It was the worst period of my life... It take more than 2 months before I begin to feel more well...Cutting the Xanax pills in small pieces was just a loose of time...I ask my family doctor to put me again on Valium at the stade of 2 mg/day of Xanax. I withdrawl fast from the Xanax, a lot more faster than what my family doctor wanted, he said that it was dangerous to do it fast like this... I Remember that in one week I go from 12mg/day to 4 mg/day in one shoot.>
>Thats crazy!
>
>I had terrible withdrawl effects you can trust me on that. The psychiatrist I had at the time was on vacation for 1 month so I was not able to reach him!!!
>
> Anyway, after that "adventure"...I meet again the pdoc I had at the time, he put me on Cipralex (Lexapro), told me that it was the most effective SSRI in the world, the most selective also for the SE, with the less side effects!!! lol Never believe a pdoc...it was the harder AD I try in my life, the one with the most side effects, I already do migraine 3 times a week, but with the Cipralex it was everyday...I gain a 40 pounds, and still gain weight and the headache never fade away also...My SE are probably a lot high cause the side effects from the cipralex don't fade away even if I stop it since 1 1/2 months now. I never felt any improve on the Cipralex (Lexapro). In fact, I lost all the interest I had in my life on it, at the end I was not able to stay 2 minutes in front of my laptop, I had no concentration at all, I had severe insomnia, more bad than usual, I was tired all day long, always lying in my bed, no motivation at all...The pdoc at the time told me to take 30mg/day of Cipralex insistead to the 20mg I was taking and I just say no!!! He add some "Ritalin" on the top of it to give me some energy but it was worst, I was just feeling more anxious, anyway coffee boost more the energy than Ritalin...he add also some Wellbutrin in the top of that...It was a crazy combo and I was so TIRED of everything that I stop cold turkey all the drugs at the end of October...
>I tried cipralex too. I was on it for about 1.5 months. I dont remember very much because it made me soo tired I just slept everywhere even on a hard floor for 24 hours. I tried up to 30mg's too. It did absolutely nothing.
>
> The pdoc leave his job and I was switched with the new one..So I see a new pdoc since than, at the same psychiatrist hospital, but the one I get now is one of the best I can get...he win a lot of prize every year for his work...His approach with me is normal and I feel very confident with him. I think they have all their goods and bads sides anyways...The new one seem to not like the benzo drugs, but he also read all my medical folder and he know that i'm addicted to them, so maybe it's why he want me to be free of them soon!!! I think he know more things about the benzo drugs than you and me...and BTW he know the Ashton book...He surf on the web often and it's in his favorite links...He often use it, sometimes for the charts comparaison, sometimes for the withdrawl effects...things like this...He just told me that in my case, benzo drugs can't help me anymore. More of them will just make me feel more depressive and make me feel like a zombie...and like he said, the goal to reach is not to make me feel like a zombie or being numb...
>Thats good news! He sound pretty darn good to me. And I totally understand now how much benzo usage you have done. Glad to hear he knows how to help you with that.
> Well, I meet my pdoc last tuesday morning, I ask him about the fact that I was wondering if I was not Bipolar...I answer some questions, and he told me that I was not bipolar at all...BUT he told me that if I fail to answer to the Parnate, it will be a good things to try something like Lamictal (even if he don't like it at all, St-John syndrome or something like that...)
>This is Extreamly rare 1/1000 and almost non-existant if you titrate slowly as recomended. Lamictal has the lowest side effect profile of any mood stabilizer. It also has an antidepressant effect. Its a good ad-on to any AD to make the AD more effective, just like lithium. Lithium might be better for some people but has more side effects then LAmictal but not many when we compare it to other mood stabilizers.
> He is not against benzo drugs, he just don't like the fact that they just act like a band-aid, without curing the main problem. It's also my decision, not just hers...And I don't want to take them all my life, cause they decrease my cognitives abilities. Since I take them (2005), I lost maybe 70% of my capacities, I mean intellectual capacities as well of my concentration level and my productivity... I don't want to be a Zombie all my life , and I prefer to have anxiety feelings sometimes than feeling just like a numb all day long. Anyway, anxiety is normal, everyone have some anxiety or stress...I just have to learn to control it...and it's what I do now on my CTB...
>
> Like I write before, I try everything except Lithium, Lamictal and others mood stabilizers.
> I always feel worse on all the SSRI's, SNRI's, a lot of the TCA's (they don't work for social phobia and anxiety...and their side effects are SO hard to support...I can't tolerate them at all...), I feel worse on all the drugs like Lyrica, Gabapentin (neurotin), Topomax, wellbutrin xr, ritalin, name them...I try everything, except the Parnate!!!
>
> So the Parnate seem to be the last ressort for now. The new Cymbalta (New in Canada, not in the USA), seem to be a less effective effexor-xr version...since I never improve on effexor-xr, in fact I always feel worse on it, remember my visit at the hospital last summer...So I think that's not worth the trial, and it cost more than 300$ by month here...I can't pay for it and I don't have insurance, so forget it...Anyway, my sister take it since it's on the market, she was on Celexa before and she don't improve at all, she have AD episodes with a lot of anxiety...it's in my familly tree. Genetic problem I think.
>
> The main problem I have with the benzos drugs semm to be the addiction. Give me one pill of Clonazepam (Rivotril) and my brains will be craving for all the bootle at the same time, I totally lost the control on the intake of them. Since I had a street drugs and alcohol addiction in the past, I just can't control myself. You cannot blame me for this, benzo are powerfull drugs, some people don't have the addiction problem and can take them all their life, but in my case forget it. I know myself and I know I will always ask for more, even if they don't do anything now on my anxiety. I take my small amount of valium just to prevent withdrawl effects, I fear to have a seizure, and that's strange sentation in my head make me feel very anxious...
>
> I always find it more hard to stop the more powerfull benzon like Rivotril or Xanax by reducing the dose by 10% each week than just cut more fast the dose. It's why I ask for the valium...that's more easy to stop since it stay in the blood for a long time, the smaller pill is 2mg, you can cut it in 2 parts or 4 parts...it's make it more easy to cut the dose in smallest parts. I plan to reduce my 20mg/day valium by 1 mg each weeks, but not before I get some positives answerd from the Parnate.
>
> You see, everyone is different...you're right on this, but I read a lot about the AD drugs, and for anxiety and social phobia problems, when the AD is just a comorbidity, the MAOI's seem to be the drugs of choice. The nardil come first but the Parnate is the second choice, forget about the reversible MAOI like the Manerix (Moclobemide), that's not effective for social anxiety, no wonder why it's not approve by the FDA... My family doctor who is an expert on AD drugs tell me that it's not more effective than a regular SSRI for social and general anxiety.
>
> The main problem with the Parnate seem to be the insomnia, not the anxiety, I know it's similar with stimulant by his structure and it's DA effect, but since i'm already anxious and I already do a lot of panic attacks, I don't see why I can feel worse on it cause the situation can't be worse than what I live now!!! For the insomnia, it's the same, I don't see why it can be a problem for me since i'm used to sleep only 2 or 3 hours by night and now I know that I can take a little bit of Unisom of Gravol or benadryl to help me to sleep, without having a SE syndrome...
>
> Nardil was also very hard for the anxiety and the insomnia, even at 90mg/day, I was always anxious. I remember that I augment my intake of coffee and cigarettes on it also. The only good effect I get on the Nardil was the fact that I was able to reduce my intake of Clonazepam at the time, I was at 8mg/day and I go down at 4mg/day (It was in the begining of 2007, before I ask to be put on the Valium.
>
> The Parnate seem to act the same on the anxiety side, at 10 mg at least. Finally, my pdoc will probably increase it until I reach the 60 mg...after he will see...it will depend on how I react. I will see how I will feel on 20mg...if it's worst, I will increase my dose more slowly. I have the same point of view than my pdoc now for the SLOW augmentation of the AD dosage. Before, I always wanted to go faster and I often take more pills than I was suppose, but I learn now that faster is not equal to succes...I learn my lesson.
>
> If I well remember, Lexapro, Celexa, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and all the newer AD's are a lot more harder on the anxiety...for me at least.
>Me too. I have the same amount of side effects on Parnate but they are different and I dont mind tolerating them as long as Parnate keeps working and gets better. Insomnia, over stimulated feelings, short bouts of anger are the main side effects im getting with Parnate. Its pro-libito for me.
> I don't like the fact that the FDA or Health Canada approve them and said that they are less dangerous than the oldest drugs. In fact, I find them more harder on side-effects.
>I agree completely. I feel human on Parnate and to a lesser extent Nardil. All the ssri's, snri's, sndri's and serotonin pumping type AD's ALL made me emotionless and I could never deal with their side effect profile.
> Anyway , it's my point of view. Thanks for the advise...I hope I will react good on the Parnate. I continue to think that it will not be more hard for the anxiety than all the newer drugs. I think my brain don't react like others people, maybe a more stimulant drug will help more, maybe not, I just don't want to start me Parnate treatment with negatives thinks...
>
> I will keep you inform of the situation.
>
> Thanks again!When I tried my first drug, Paxil, for SP I became very manic and happy. Life was the best thing in the world. I could do anything. Nothing could hold me back. I still couldn't give presentations but other then that I became the most talkative/popular/annoying person in any group, I was a King in my eyes. I loved it(this was a symptom of my Bipolar2 to some extent). I lowered the dosage once to try and regain my libito and BAM! Paxil never worked again nor did any other AD except Nardil a little bit. Parnate is the best so far.
Im at 70mg for 4days now. Its doing a OK job for SP. DEPRESSION(i dont think anyone could get depressed if on Parnate lol)well I feel like that anyway.
Ok, sounds like you have a plan in place, good luck.
Chow4Now.
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 12, 2008, at 17:03:08
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » ParnateStarted2008, posted by Vincent_QC on December 12, 2008, at 9:18:02
> > I dont think your Pdoc is very well informed about the different techniques at tackeling Anxiety and Depression. He does have a sound technique tho. Your different like every one else. Many Many people (not most) only get the good effects of Parnate at doses above 60, sometimes WAY higher. Parnate is weird like that. FDA MAX is 60 but really... Parnate's milage varies alot. I just say this from all the post's ive read over the years, not just this site. AND 2 psychiatrists told me 60mg's isnt a very high dose! These drugs are from the 50's, we know alot more about them now. Their underutilization just keeps the standard FDA dose the same and says nothing else. Many doctors still abide exactly. Wouldn't it be great if all docs could get on the 2008 train and do a little research and see whats happening out there/here.
> >
> > Tell your pdoc to read Ashton's Manual on Benzos. Your doctor is somewhat right that the faster your off benzos, the faster U wont have Benzo effects/withdrawl etc. This is not true in many cases. Slow is usually alot better. Benzos are the best first line treatment against anxiety. All these damn ssri/other AD companies are just maketing pro's trying to steal the market. I think a benzo is safer then a ssri/other AD when used properly. ssri's/ other AD's are personality changing drugs with way more side effects and withdrawl effects of their own. Personality withdrawl can be just as hard as benzo withdrawl. Im not against ssri's/AD's, they definitely have their place. But the stigma that benzos are old and rarely used because AD's are better and safer for anxiety is not right. doctors are smarter then that?
> >
> > Maybe he is a great doctor, Maybe you and him arn't a good match.
> > I know i put alot of opinions here... just wanted to express what I thought about your post..:) Im at 70 mg's now.
> > Below 60 I felt OK AD effects but no anxiolytic, above 60 I do: I laugh, im happier and go lucky. Below 60 just task oriented and driven, Felt like Wellbutrin a bit.. Thats just me
> > keep us poster Vince
> > Later
> >
>
> Thanks for the answer mister ParnateStarted2008 ;-)Oh I have a question, maybe dumb but.. is a "pdoc" a regular family doctor or a Psychiatrist? Im guessing its a psychiatrist when people use that term.
Hi Vincent, fellow Parnate Starter. I am amazed by your story and struggles and accomplishments. Your story is extremely interesting to me. Here is a little bit about who I am:
-I live in Canada, British Columbia. I went to college in Alberta on and off over the last 6 years.
-I'm 23 years old, almost 24
-Ive had social phobia all my life
-By 17 I became agoraphobic and depressed and began my journey of medication and councelling.
-Between the age of 18-23 I have abused alcohol heavily and benzo's only a few times
-This summer I was diagnosed with Bipolar2
-I often get completely obsessed with psychotropics to 'fix/help my life' as do alot of people here I bet
Thats me in a NutShell
>
> For your information, I live in the Canada, mean that the medical system here is Public, we don't pay for the Hospital or to see a Doctor. So we have no choice over the pdoc or family doctor we get, or even the medical care we get, everyone have the same quality of service and we have to WAIT and WAIT a long time before seeing a doctor or a pdoc.
>What province are you from? I pick my doctors (family and psychiatrists) and usually give them an interview on what they treat, knowledge with my problems/medications, etc. That also alows me to see if I will get along with him/her. There are different clinics here and I can easily go to any one of them and ask which doctors are taking new patients (i've moved around here and Alberta and had many different doctors and Psychiatrists). If my doctor refers me to a Psychiatrist whom I do not like I will get refered to a different one or have CanadaMentalHaelth facilities find me one.
I'm sorry if this makes me sound spoiled, I really dont mean to do do that or to brag, but I feel the upmost sympathy for you and couldn't imagine being stuck with a doctor I dont like. Maybe its because of your province. This sounds very odd to me. I can always go to a walk in Clinic anytime and get a referral to a Psych or even ask if they are taking new patients when not doing their walk in clinic hours...>
> So, yes, last summer I go by myself to the emergency of the regular hospital, since we can't go directly to the psychiatrist hospital, we have to go to the emergency and see a psychiatrist there and wait in a close room with others people, when they find a place to "dispatch" you, at the psychiatrist hospital, you move there...but sometimes it's a long process...and I was not interrested to wait 3 weeks in this close room... I was on more than 12mg/day of Xanax, I was unable to speak, I was totally lost, I was at the same time on 337.5 mg/day of Effexor-xr... I had to wait 3 days in that close room, with others people with worse conditions than mine... I had no right to go outside even just to smooke a cigarette, I had to put a nicotine patch, I had no right to have people visiting me...I had to wait my place at the psychiatrist hospital...After 3 days, In the middle of the night, I just sing a paper telling that I was refusing to receive my treatment and I return to my home...
>Where are you.. that sounds horrible. Here I can walk straight in with a note from my psychiatrist if I need to. When I was sent without my own consent I was placed in a room by myself for 24 hours so they could monitor me, it sucked, but then im out in a new room, usually shared, and able to walk around the unit regularely untill im well enough to leave.
I feel really bad writing this because I make it sound so easy. My illness is not easy or is finding a good doctor. I've gone through hell and came back many times..I see my family doctor the morning after, we do a withdrawl cedule of the Xanax, a slow reduction cedule, He give to me some "Mirtaprazine" (Remeron) to help me to sleep, and I do my withdrawl alone at home...and It was the worst period of my life... It take more than 2 months before I begin to feel more well...Cutting the Xanax pills in small pieces was just a loose of time...I ask my family doctor to put me again on Valium at the stade of 2 mg/day of Xanax. I withdrawl fast from the Xanax, a lot more faster than what my family doctor wanted, he said that it was dangerous to do it fast like this... I Remember that in one week I go from 12mg/day to 4 mg/day in one shoot.>
>Thats crazy!
>
>I had terrible withdrawl effects you can trust me on that. The psychiatrist I had at the time was on vacation for 1 month so I was not able to reach him!!!
>
> Anyway, after that "adventure"...I meet again the pdoc I had at the time, he put me on Cipralex (Lexapro), told me that it was the most effective SSRI in the world, the most selective also for the SE, with the less side effects!!! lol Never believe a pdoc...it was the harder AD I try in my life, the one with the most side effects, I already do migraine 3 times a week, but with the Cipralex it was everyday...I gain a 40 pounds, and still gain weight and the headache never fade away also...My SE are probably a lot high cause the side effects from the cipralex don't fade away even if I stop it since 1 1/2 months now. I never felt any improve on the Cipralex (Lexapro). In fact, I lost all the interest I had in my life on it, at the end I was not able to stay 2 minutes in front of my laptop, I had no concentration at all, I had severe insomnia, more bad than usual, I was tired all day long, always lying in my bed, no motivation at all...The pdoc at the time told me to take 30mg/day of Cipralex insistead to the 20mg I was taking and I just say no!!! He add some "Ritalin" on the top of it to give me some energy but it was worst, I was just feeling more anxious, anyway coffee boost more the energy than Ritalin...he add also some Wellbutrin in the top of that...It was a crazy combo and I was so TIRED of everything that I stop cold turkey all the drugs at the end of October...
>I tried cipralex too. I was on it for about 1.5 months. I dont remember very much because it made me soo tired I just slept everywhere even on a hard floor for 24 hours. I tried up to 30mg's too. It did absolutely nothing.
>
> The pdoc leave his job and I was switched with the new one..So I see a new pdoc since than, at the same psychiatrist hospital, but the one I get now is one of the best I can get...he win a lot of prize every year for his work...His approach with me is normal and I feel very confident with him. I think they have all their goods and bads sides anyways...The new one seem to not like the benzo drugs, but he also read all my medical folder and he know that i'm addicted to them, so maybe it's why he want me to be free of them soon!!! I think he know more things about the benzo drugs than you and me...and BTW he know the Ashton book...He surf on the web often and it's in his favorite links...He often use it, sometimes for the charts comparaison, sometimes for the withdrawl effects...things like this...He just told me that in my case, benzo drugs can't help me anymore. More of them will just make me feel more depressive and make me feel like a zombie...and like he said, the goal to reach is not to make me feel like a zombie or being numb...
>Thats good news! He sound pretty darn good to me. And I totally understand now how much benzo usage you have done. Glad to hear he knows how to help you with that.
> Well, I meet my pdoc last tuesday morning, I ask him about the fact that I was wondering if I was not Bipolar...I answer some questions, and he told me that I was not bipolar at all...BUT he told me that if I fail to answer to the Parnate, it will be a good things to try something like Lamictal (even if he don't like it at all, St-John syndrome or something like that...)
>This is Extreamly rare 1/1000 and almost non-existant if you titrate slowly as recomended. Lamictal has the lowest side effect profile of any mood stabilizer. It also has an antidepressant effect. Its a good ad-on to any AD to make the AD more effective, just like lithium. Lithium might be better for some people but has more side effects then LAmictal but not many when we compare it to other mood stabilizers.
> He is not against benzo drugs, he just don't like the fact that they just act like a band-aid, without curing the main problem. It's also my decision, not just hers...And I don't want to take them all my life, cause they decrease my cognitives abilities. Since I take them (2005), I lost maybe 70% of my capacities, I mean intellectual capacities as well of my concentration level and my productivity... I don't want to be a Zombie all my life , and I prefer to have anxiety feelings sometimes than feeling just like a numb all day long. Anyway, anxiety is normal, everyone have some anxiety or stress...I just have to learn to control it...and it's what I do now on my CTB...
>
> Like I write before, I try everything except Lithium, Lamictal and others mood stabilizers.
> I always feel worse on all the SSRI's, SNRI's, a lot of the TCA's (they don't work for social phobia and anxiety...and their side effects are SO hard to support...I can't tolerate them at all...), I feel worse on all the drugs like Lyrica, Gabapentin (neurotin), Topomax, wellbutrin xr, ritalin, name them...I try everything, except the Parnate!!!
>
> So the Parnate seem to be the last ressort for now. The new Cymbalta (New in Canada, not in the USA), seem to be a less effective effexor-xr version...since I never improve on effexor-xr, in fact I always feel worse on it, remember my visit at the hospital last summer...So I think that's not worth the trial, and it cost more than 300$ by month here...I can't pay for it and I don't have insurance, so forget it...Anyway, my sister take it since it's on the market, she was on Celexa before and she don't improve at all, she have AD episodes with a lot of anxiety...it's in my familly tree. Genetic problem I think.
>
> The main problem I have with the benzos drugs semm to be the addiction. Give me one pill of Clonazepam (Rivotril) and my brains will be craving for all the bootle at the same time, I totally lost the control on the intake of them. Since I had a street drugs and alcohol addiction in the past, I just can't control myself. You cannot blame me for this, benzo are powerfull drugs, some people don't have the addiction problem and can take them all their life, but in my case forget it. I know myself and I know I will always ask for more, even if they don't do anything now on my anxiety. I take my small amount of valium just to prevent withdrawl effects, I fear to have a seizure, and that's strange sentation in my head make me feel very anxious...
>
> I always find it more hard to stop the more powerfull benzon like Rivotril or Xanax by reducing the dose by 10% each week than just cut more fast the dose. It's why I ask for the valium...that's more easy to stop since it stay in the blood for a long time, the smaller pill is 2mg, you can cut it in 2 parts or 4 parts...it's make it more easy to cut the dose in smallest parts. I plan to reduce my 20mg/day valium by 1 mg each weeks, but not before I get some positives answerd from the Parnate.
>
> You see, everyone is different...you're right on this, but I read a lot about the AD drugs, and for anxiety and social phobia problems, when the AD is just a comorbidity, the MAOI's seem to be the drugs of choice. The nardil come first but the Parnate is the second choice, forget about the reversible MAOI like the Manerix (Moclobemide), that's not effective for social anxiety, no wonder why it's not approve by the FDA... My family doctor who is an expert on AD drugs tell me that it's not more effective than a regular SSRI for social and general anxiety.
>
> The main problem with the Parnate seem to be the insomnia, not the anxiety, I know it's similar with stimulant by his structure and it's DA effect, but since i'm already anxious and I already do a lot of panic attacks, I don't see why I can feel worse on it cause the situation can't be worse than what I live now!!! For the insomnia, it's the same, I don't see why it can be a problem for me since i'm used to sleep only 2 or 3 hours by night and now I know that I can take a little bit of Unisom of Gravol or benadryl to help me to sleep, without having a SE syndrome...
>
> Nardil was also very hard for the anxiety and the insomnia, even at 90mg/day, I was always anxious. I remember that I augment my intake of coffee and cigarettes on it also. The only good effect I get on the Nardil was the fact that I was able to reduce my intake of Clonazepam at the time, I was at 8mg/day and I go down at 4mg/day (It was in the begining of 2007, before I ask to be put on the Valium.
>
> The Parnate seem to act the same on the anxiety side, at 10 mg at least. Finally, my pdoc will probably increase it until I reach the 60 mg...after he will see...it will depend on how I react. I will see how I will feel on 20mg...if it's worst, I will increase my dose more slowly. I have the same point of view than my pdoc now for the SLOW augmentation of the AD dosage. Before, I always wanted to go faster and I often take more pills than I was suppose, but I learn now that faster is not equal to succes...I learn my lesson.
>
> If I well remember, Lexapro, Celexa, Zoloft, Wellbutrin, and all the newer AD's are a lot more harder on the anxiety...for me at least.
>Me too. I have the same amount of side effects on Parnate but they are different and I dont mind tolerating them as long as Parnate keeps working and gets better. Insomnia, over stimulated feelings, short bouts of anger are the main side effects im getting with Parnate. Its pro-libito for me.
> I don't like the fact that the FDA or Health Canada approve them and said that they are less dangerous than the oldest drugs. In fact, I find them more harder on side-effects.
>I agree completely. I feel human on Parnate and to a lesser extent Nardil. All the ssri's, snri's, sndri's and serotonin pumping type AD's ALL made me emotionless and I could never deal with their side effect profile.
> Anyway , it's my point of view. Thanks for the advise...I hope I will react good on the Parnate. I continue to think that it will not be more hard for the anxiety than all the newer drugs. I think my brain don't react like others people, maybe a more stimulant drug will help more, maybe not, I just don't want to start me Parnate treatment with negatives thinks...
>
> I will keep you inform of the situation.
>
> Thanks again!When I tried my first drug, Paxil, for SP I became very manic and happy. Life was the best thing in the world. I could do anything. Nothing could hold me back. I still couldn't give presentations but other then that I became the most talkative/popular/annoying person in any group, I was a King in my eyes. I loved it(this was a symptom of my Bipolar2 to some extent). I lowered the dosage once to try and regain my libito and BAM! Paxil never worked again nor did any other AD except Nardil a little bit. Parnate is the best so far.
Im at 70mg for 4days now. Its doing a OK job for SP. DEPRESSION(i dont think anyone could get depressed if on Parnate lol)well I feel like that anyway.
Ok, sounds like you have a plan in place, good luck.
Chow4Now.
Posted by Vincent_QC on December 13, 2008, at 7:21:07
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » Vincent_QC, posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 12, 2008, at 17:03:08
> Oh I have a question, maybe dumb but.. is a "pdoc" a regular family doctor or a Psychiatrist? Im guessing its a psychiatrist when people use that term.
>Hi mister Parnate!!! Lol
Omg...I always write long messages...lol So another time, thanks for your answer ;-)
Ok, I will try do explain myself more well, my English is not at his best, especially with the memory problems I have since a little while. I lived a couple of years with only English speaking people (my mother tongue is French), so yeah Im a "Québécois"...I hope Im not scarring you with that declaration...lol... I don't know why but I always have difficulty to improve my English level, maybe Im retarded! hahaha ;-)
So where to begin? I have a family doctor, who follows me since 1995. It's a specialist for anxious problems and depression. He also works in a hospital as a family doctor, but I always meet him at his private clinic, he is very busy and dont accept new patientsits the number one doctor in tue Quebec city for the psychological problems.
In March 2007, after the Nardil try, and 10 years of research of the miracle pill, he write a referral paper for a psych to me, since he was not able to continue his treatment with me, or to find something to cure me well. We try almost everything together since 1995, so he was probably tired of taking care of me...lol No, Im just kidding but he know at time that I will be able to have a more good follow up of my case at the psychiatric hospital than only with him. At the psychiatric hospital they have a special center with psychologists and its a place where the treat people with anxious problems with CTB, they call it in French Clinique des troubles anxieux. Thats one of the only places in the Quebec province where they have this kind of treatment offer. IF you go in the private system, you can get a very good psychologist who will do the same treatment, but you will have to pay more than 100$ for each meetings with him/herI dont work, so no money, so I have to wait in the public system and take what they give to me!!!
So I get the paper in march 2007, here in the Quebec province, the medical system is very SLOW and I cant pick up the psychiatrist I want, in fact we don't have a lot of psychiatrist over here. I know only 2 psychiatrist hospitals specialized with psychiatrics problems in the Quebec province, one in Quebec city, another one in Montreal city, and probably others in smaller cities but I dont know themand I donT own a car to drive thereYeah, I use the car of my mom (I know, im 32yo im shy to tell you this), but well I dont want to drive 5 hours just to see a psychiatrist We have a lot of OLD psychiatrists here, and they are a lot crazyI dont want to have an old psychiatrist who will treat me like sh*t and the new one I got 3 weeks ago is young, he is not afraid with the old drugs like MAOIs, he like the wok he did and he like to have a very strict follow of each of his patients.
You are lucky, having the chance to pick up the psychiatrist you want, thats my dream. I want to move into your province, thats seemed easier than here. So you're from British Colombia...I understand why you can choose you psychiatrist cause you have more medical services there, well I think...your province have probably more money allowed to the medical system, or you have more doctors...one thing is sure, in the Quebec province, they need more doctors, since the delay before getting an appointment with a doctor is VERY long. I think the ratio of doctors/patients is something like 1 doctor for 1000 patientsWell to continue with my little story, I Get my paper in march 2007 and in the Quebec province we have to follow this rules to have an access with a psychiatrist...IF you donT go to the emergency of the general hospital and meet a psychiatrist there and wait in the close room for an indeterminate time, you have to go to a "CLSC", that's a kind of small medical clinic, they put this in place to "apparently" reduce the number of people in the hospital emergencies...but anyway, I had to take an appointment with a "social worker" sorry, I don't know the real name of this kind of job in English...Anyway, I had to wait 2 months before meeting him, I see him at the end of may 2007, I fill some papers, he send my referral paper to the psychiatrist hospital in Quebec city, and I had to wait until the 22 October 2007 before I meet the first psychiatrist they give to me. The first I get was not very good, I had him for 1 year, I just get the new one 3 weeks ago and he is better. He do a very good job, dont hesitate to give 1 appointment by week, especially when you begin a new drugs, so yeah I feel in good hands with him.
BUT, I also continue to see my family doctor at the same time. I see him for others things, like the by-pass surgery I get to loose weight a couple of years ago, and others things like that. He continues to advise me, he is a LOT open minded. He dont hesitate to said the truth about a drug, when the new Cymbalta appear on the market, he said that it was another ***** drugs, a less effective effexor-xr versionHe never try TCAs on me cause he know they are not good for social phobia, so you see, he tell you the thruth, he is not push by the pharmacy industry or companies he dont promote the use of newer products over the old one who are now genericHe is also open minded and he know what he do, BUT Im a lost case, and he never succeed to cure mebut I continue to see him cause I know that if I need help, or for example, I want to increase the Parnate to more than 70mg/day and the psychiatrist I had dont want, I will told it to my family doctor and he will fill a prescription to me.Understand??? I HOPE they are not members of this forum!!!! Hahahaha Im not supposed to see 2 doctors at the same time. But well, I think with years, we learn to get what we want from the public medical systemwe have no choice (when you dont have money like me of course)
So you see, we can't pick up the psych doc here, you take the one they give to you and that's it! Sure, I can go to a general hospital, and ask to meet a psychiatrist there, but they are not good at all and they will send you to the psychiatrist hospital anyway, they are just there to dispatch peoples or in case of severe crisis, you know, people who attempt suicide or things like that...So they lock up them in a big room, and they treat them, normally they return home the day after cause the system is overload!!! No wonder why I was not an emergency case last summer when I walk myself to the general hospital to be treating for my AD and my benzo addiction...
> Hi Vincent, fellow Parnate Starter. I am amazed by your story and struggles and accomplishments. Your story is extremely interesting to me. Here is a little bit about who I am:
> -I live in Canada, British Columbia. I went to college in Alberta on and off over the last 6 years.
> -I'm 23 years old, almost 24
> -Ive had social phobia all my life
> -By 17 I became agoraphobic and depressed and began my journey of medication and councelling.
> -Between the age of 18-23 I have abused alcohol heavily and benzo's only a few times
> -This summer I was diagnosed with Bipolar2
> -I often get completely obsessed with psychotropics to 'fix/help my life' as do alot of people here I bet
> Thats me in a NutShell
>
Same here, I'm also obsessed with psychotropics!!! I think I read more books about drugs to cure AD or any others psychiatric problems than all the psychiatrists or doctors do.Buspar was the first drug I tryI was 19yo at the time and its was a new drug, fresh on the market since less than 2 weeksAt the time, social phobia was not really well know, it was at the beginning of the 90sit was a new medical termpanic attacks and anxiety was more commons terms used at the time, but social phobia was more a personality problem than other thing for the regular doctor.
I switch fast on the PAXILit was also a new drug at the time. I was treat with it from 19yo to 24 yoI gain more than 150 pounds on it, I never answer very well to it, I think the psychologue (I donT know the word in Englishbut they cant prescribe drugs, they just do CTB therapy)anyway the psychologist I had at the time help me more than the Paxil I was at 40mg/day at the time. I had no libido at all, apathy was my main personality trait at the time, I was not caring about anything, I had no emotion, I had no motivation at all, I was just eating like a pig, to do a short story it was not helping at all but it was just like a security pill for me. I learn to cope with my social anxiety at the time, I also learn how to AVOID social situations, AVOID the public places in general, especially the ones where I cant get out when I wantplane, bus, school class
> Thats crazy!
>The benzo drugs are CRAZY anywayI dont understand why they prescribe them in 2008, thats the more powerful drug in the world And I know my Ashton book by heart!!! Lol AND I can say benzo drugs are not good at all. I used to drink a lot of alcohol on them too Drinking a 26 oz bottle of vodka with more than 8mg of Rivotril was nothing extraordinary for meand I was always in a good shape the morning after!!! I had school the morning after, I had 3 or 4 BIG coffees and I was walking at school, listening to the teatcher for 3 hours long, taking note on my laptop, sometimes speaking with the people near me, I Was productivebut completely on DRUG I do this for more than 1 year, 4 nights a week, I was going at the university full time at the same time, it was crazy as hell. My family doctor always think that I was lucky to not have more problems than this with the benzo drugs cause I blend them often with alcoholAnyway, Im in life now, so I guess thats not so dangerous. I never pass out or have a problem by blending them with alcoholI always remember what I do the night beforeI just get MORE ADDICTED to benzo drugs by doing this. So its why I tell you that benzo drugs are not goodBefore I used them, I never had an alcohol problemYeah, I had a street drug problem back in my teenager yearsbut I was just an occasional drinker before 2005
> I tried cipralex too. I was on it for about 1.5 months. I dont remember very much because it made me soo tired I just slept everywhere even on a hard floor for 24 hours. I tried up to 30mg's too. It did absolutely nothing.
>
> >Same here, I was tired as hellbut not able to sleep at allexcept during the day I was doing LONG naps, all the afternoon And like I write yesterday, I stop it the 27 October 2008, and I still continue to feel some side effectsthe apathy never disappear, the fatigue also, the regular and strong headache is more strong than ever and its like this everyday and I continue to gain weight , even if I dont eat a lot. I was at 185 pounds before I begin the Cipralex, back at the end of August, Im now at 230 pounds. I had to buy new clothes again because of I cant fit on the ones I buy last augustSince my body image is the MAIN problem in my social anxiety, because I had morbid obesity before my gastric by-pass surgery, Im now more anxious about this weight gain and I Feel just like sh*t I have a bulimia problem also; I never mention it I thinkand the Cipralex activate this problem as wellThats a sh*tty drug for meNEVER again! I dont want to return to 445 pounds, like I was before my gastric by-pass back in 2001I suffer a lot from this surgery and I got a lot of problems alsoI do sever anaemia, I have no iron in my blood, I have to go to the hospital each month to receive intravenous iron, I have a hernia, all over my scar, its 20 cm long on my bellyI had a hernia curing surgery back in July 2004, and it was more painful than the gastric by-pass I had in 2001. The hernia is back, I need another hernia curing but I cant do it because its freaking me out I need to have a lot of extra skin remove with plastic surgery but I lack the 50 000$ to pay itso I hate my body, and no CTB or pills will make me accept the fact that my body is like this I cant watch me nude in a mirror, so you can imagine that I cant meet someone and do something sexual with himits a total discomfort situation among others
>
> This is Extreamly rare 1/1000 and almost non-existant if you titrate slowly as recomended. Lamictal has the lowest side effect profile of any mood stabilizer. It also has an antidepressant effect. Its a good ad-on to any AD to make the AD more effective, just like lithium. Lithium might be better for some people but has more side effects then LAmictal but not many when we compare it to other mood stabilizers.
>
I know this, and he know this alsobut he is just overstress with that because one of his patients almost pass out on itHe say that now he go slow on the dose at the beginningand just wait to see how react the person on itif no problem appear at week 1, he increase the dose faster> >
>
> Me too. I have the same amount of side effects on Parnate but they are different and I dont mind tolerating them as long as Parnate keeps working and gets better. Insomnia, over stimulated feelings, short bouts of anger are the main side effects im getting with Parnate. Its pro-libito for me.
>Pro-Libito??? Explain this to me!!! Lol Pro-LIBIDO ??? My god, the last thing I need for now is sexI never get a problem with sex on AD drugs, they never affect me, except for the Paxil and Nardilthe others one never affect ,y libido or my capacity to have sex.but anyway, Im not able to have sex with someone else because I hate my bodyNOW its more harder than before, since I gain this pretty 45 pounds !!!!
.
> >
>
> I agree completely. I feel human on Parnate and to a lesser extent Nardil. All the ssri's, snri's, sndri's and serotonin pumping type AD's ALL made me emotionless and I could never deal with their side effect profile.
>I never feel like everybody, I always feel apart from them. I was a fat kid but thats not a good excuse. I was not the only one to be more fat at school and the others fat kids was able to make friends and have regular social interactionsme I was always alone, I was a punching bad kid, I was unable to defence myself, but at the same time, I had a BIG problem with the authorities in generalI had a lot of anger against everyone, at school I was a child problem with teachers, I was arrogant, I was always on drugs, especially in my high school days So I never help me On the top of that Im GAYHo dont be scary about that, I will not jump on you!!! Lol But you see, thats not helpingat 3 years old I was already like that, I always look at the boysnot the girlsBUT my sexual orientation was never a problem for me since I was fat and I dont look gayI was never treat as a gaybecause others childs always see me as a fat kid at firstand an easy target to be mistreat on my FAT problem
I try to change myself, I try to change a lot of things in my life and my approach with the others but every time I was able to approach new people, it was always weird peoples, problems people, I was abuse by them, I was giving my money to everyone, I was giving all I had to be accepted by the othersand I never get something in return
I always feel like I was from another planet. Now its the sameI look around me, I look at the world, and I feel that Im like the othersI found the world to be too fast for me, I feel like everyone is happy except me, I feel always watched by the others, I feel always guilty, if I go somewhere (social event or place) I feel like Im not like the others, I feel exclude, and the list goes on!!! Ho and if I go shopping and I dont do a plan in my head before about where I have to go, where I will find what I need or things like that I begin to freak out. Im not able to just go to the shopping mail and just looking aroundI always feel watched, like the people think that I will stole something, I feel overstress, over watchedso you can imagine why Im always tiredI cant put the switch off in my head. I always think about 10000000 things at the same time Sometimes I just lying in my bed and I think about the past, about the future, about the fact that I have more that 20 000$ of student loans to refund, that I dont finish my last year of university, that I dont work, that I dont have money, that I will have to refund my student loans soon even if I didnt finish my schoolI wonder when I will be able to return to schoolif I will be able to study again, since I have a lot of memory problems, I wonder about what I will do at night, if I know that Im suppose to go out at the bar with a friend at night, I imagine in advance all the night, how I will feel, I wonder if I will see someone who dont like me, I wonder if someone will come and talk with me, since Im not very good in my self presentation, I tend to show my negatives sides first and I always said negatives thingsso no wonder why the people dont find me attractive or interesting. BUT I try to changebut thats not easy I just begin another CTB therapy 3 weeks ago, its my third therapy I think, and I hope I will be able to change the way I feel inside me, my mental thinks and speech, and I hope I will be able to work on my social presentation, I dont want to become a popular guy, I just want to feel normal, like someone who is a part of this society you know
> Im at 70mg for 4days now. Its doing a OK job for SP. DEPRESSION(i dont think anyone could get depressed if on Parnate lol)well I feel like that anyway.
> Ok, sounds like you have a plan in place, good luck.
> Chow4Now.
>Well for now, Im only at 10mgI dont feel a lot of thingsbefore I begin the Parnate, I was already in bad shape and overstress so I cant say if all I feel inside my head is from the Parnate of just from my imagination I also have a fixation on the DIET thingI was not like this on the Nardil back in 2007. I do panic attacks, especially after I eat something that Im not suppose, like process cheese on my breadthings like thatI listen too much to my body, I have a fixation on it in fact
Im also complex a lot. I do social phobia, but at the same time I like to speak loud, I like to feel like Im the central attraction. Im a crazy bitch with the others, I dont like a lot of people, I like to be look by the others and I like the fact that Im different from the othersbut at the same time I fear the judgment of the othersStrange no???
The same apply to my lifestyle. I always find that the Coffee, for example, help me with my social interactions. My family doctor wanted that I stop coffee because he say it was bad for my anxiety, but when I dont drink coffee, I find that Im less awake, I tend to have more strong migraines but at the same time, the coffee make my hands and my feets completely moist and I can feel the anxiety augmenting with my intake of coffeeIm also a lot concern about my health but at the same time I smoke like I never smoke before, more than 1 pack by day, I dont eat a lot but I dont eat well, I know that coffee dont help me with the insomnia but I continue to drink it, even if its 9 PM, I wonder if I will be able to do a strict protein diet on the Parnate, since the powder whey protein seem to be not very safe I need some motivation but the Cipralex leave me completely empty Last spring, after my second Zoloft try in my life, I do a strict diet and I succed to loose more than 40 pounds on a strict diet , I eat just powder protein, a lot of vitamins, and green saladand a lot of waterthats itI was so happy like thisI mean at 185 poundsnow I look at myself and I hate what I seebut at the same time, I cant stop doing bad things to my bodyI cant stop eating sugar and fat foods I TRY the most I Cant but thats so hardI dont have the energy to do it nowbut if I dont stop gaining weight I know I will feel worst and worstThats not helping me
Well, thats enough for todaySorry if I bother youYou are very nice to take the time to read all of this and dont judge me
Have a nice day and again thanks a lot ;-)
Take care of you ok ;-)
Posted by desolationrower on December 13, 2008, at 14:34:07
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » ParnateStarted2008, posted by Vincent_QC on December 13, 2008, at 7:21:07
haha, I can't understand how someone who loves to talk so much could have social anxiety, mine in large part comes from feeling i will not have any words to say
-d/r
Posted by ParnateStarted2008 on December 13, 2008, at 14:35:06
In reply to Re: Nardil + Insomnia - Re to 'ParnateStarted2008' » ParnateStarted2008, posted by Vincent_QC on December 13, 2008, at 7:21:07
Hi Vince, I too write long posts or I cant get out what I want to say..
My new tactic is using some small lines when needed eg.
- paeudoiuhefiue
-ca va vince
- iejuwoduiejd
-oidjue2uoi
Helps some whatI like reading long posts. I am here to get as much help and information as I can. You have ALOT of knowledge and a story that, to me, is important, full of information, Similar to my problem(somewhat) and I feel so much better to hear Im not the only one feeling these horrible thoughts that come with Social Phobia. Our "bad thoughts" are different but probably not less severe. I take you seriously because you are sincerely a companion struggling with Social Phobia(and all the other metal hell that goes along with it).
Im in a small dysphoric mania right now. Im Bipolar2 like I said but I still get break through symptoms even tho im treated, just not as bad. ive been in my room/tv room/ kitchen for 3 days now(no where else). I'm easily angered, I'm mean, I want to hurt peoples feelings, I cant be around another person or I will get soo anxious Ill have to Get very mad/mean/bully them to get them away from me(a habit when I get like this), it works, they leave but I feel bad for doing it. BUT I am sure this will be gone in a few days.
I must take a very big nap now because I just want to be asleep when I feel this way..
Thank god Im A SUPER DUPER rapid cycling bipolar. I could be back to normal any second.. I just need some opiots/pheno's/Barbitui/and a butt load of any benzo so I can sleep through the whole thing for a few days and come out better...
ill talk to you soon.
Later
Ill get right back to the convo as soon as im done this nap..
k later
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