![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 58. Go back in thread:
Posted by alucard on May 1, 2008, at 2:11:12
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on April 30, 2008, at 17:16:36
I agree with you guys that Cyprenil and Selepryl could quite easily be selegiline HCl, especially given the "flexibility" of Mexican pharmaceutical purity and labeling standards. However, as a chemist I know that it just isn't that difficult to make the citrate form if you've already got a lab equipped to make the hydrochloride form. So why lie about it? There's always the possibility that two separate companies ARE just making the hydrochloride salt and lying about it, but I fail to see the motive when it's so easy to make the real thing and stay honest...
Another related point: the main pharmaceutical chemist who testified FOR Discovery in their lawsuits wrote an affidavit stating that his professional opinion was that the superiority of Discovery's product lay in their purification procedures, NOT in the specific ion (citrate vs. hydrochloride) that they stabilized the selegiline with. So who knows? I think at this point it's pretty much subjective opinion about efficacy, regardless of whether it's citrate or hydrochloride...
Which still doesn't answer the most curious question of all: if Discovery REALLY discovered all these great cures and they're completely prevented from making a profit off of them by the FDA, why the hell don't they just distribute the manufacturing instructions as widely as possible? Sketchy stuff...
Posted by undopaminergic on May 2, 2008, at 12:26:23
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by alucard on May 1, 2008, at 2:11:12
> I agree with you guys that Cyprenil and Selepryl could quite easily be selegiline HCl, especially given the "flexibility" of Mexican pharmaceutical purity and labeling standards. However, as a chemist I know that it just isn't that difficult to make the citrate form if you've already got a lab equipped to make the hydrochloride form. So why lie about it?
>Perhaps they don't have a lab equipped to synthesise selegiline, or perhaps they don't have the skills? Perhaps they just buy it from bulk chemical suppliers? In that case they will find the hydrochloride to be the most readily available, whereas the freebase is quire rare, and the citrate absolutely unheard of.
Also, since the properties of the citrate salt of selegiline are unknown, we don't know whether it's water soluble or otherwise suitable for bottling and distribution.
Since you're a chemist, have you considered trying to make your own selegiline - citrate or otherwise? Aren't you at least tempted to evaporate the water from some of your Cyprenil and determine the melting point of the residue? And perhaps hydrolyse it with a base and see whether you get the oily free base of selegiline? Maybe you even have some contacts within the industry who could help you with HPLC, GCMS, or other advanced methods of analysis?
Posted by bulldog2 on May 2, 2008, at 14:32:42
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on May 2, 2008, at 12:26:23
Dedi also made some remark about selepryl and cyprenyl not crossing the blood brain barrier. Not sure how they came to that conclusion.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 2, 2008, at 17:49:56
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on May 2, 2008, at 14:32:42
> Dedi also made some remark about selepryl and cyprenyl not crossing the blood brain barrier. Not sure how they came to that conclusion.
>Some of their writings are just ridiculous and nonsensical. There is overwhelming proof that selegiline - whether in its free base or hydrochloride form - is centrally active.
Posted by Amigan on May 3, 2008, at 0:07:03
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by alucard on May 1, 2008, at 2:11:12
Why do you care so much if it's citrate or HCL? Does it even matter?
Posted by Alucard on May 3, 2008, at 2:56:34
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Amigan on May 3, 2008, at 0:07:03
>Why do you care so much if it's citrate or HCL? Does it even matter?
It might, and it might not. It all depends on what form was used in the animal experiments that have yielded such positive results. The original creators of the citrate form (DEDI) have been rather intense about citrate being the only truly effective form, but quite a few claims they make are pretty seriously sketchy (e.g. nobody else in the WHOLE WORLD knows how to manufacture the citrate form), so I take them with 20 or 30 grains of salt.
>Perhaps they (Cyto-Pharma) don't have a lab equipped to synthesise selegiline, or perhaps they don't have the skills?
Selegiline freebase is extremely easy to make with cheap, readily available chemicals. If you were really determined to do it you could make it at home with chemicals acquired at a reasonable cost from your local hardware store and Wal-Mart, or dirt cheap from the internet. So any laboratory of any size, ESPECIALLY a pharmaceutical lab, would definitely be equipped and skilled enough to make it. Making it at home is a BAD IDEA, however, because your product would be nowhere near 99.99% pure and those little impurities can have a HUGELY negative effect. Pharmaceutical labs in particular are very careful to purify their products extensively for this very reason (one fatal mistake and chances are you're going out of business from the bad publicity and ensuing lawsuits, and possibly facing prison time).
>Since you're a chemist, have you considered trying to make your own selegiline - citrate or otherwise? Aren't you at least tempted to evaporate the water from some of your Cyprenil and determine the melting point of the residue? And perhaps hydrolyse it with a base and see whether you get the oily free base of selegiline? Maybe you even have some contacts within the industry who could help you with HPLC, GCMS, or other advanced methods of analysis?
VERY tempted, and not just selegiline but a whole host of other interesting compounds I've come across throughout the years. BUT I'm kinda wandering around the world with nothing more than I can carry in a backpack at the moment, and will be for the indefinite future. This year I'm in Hawai'i, hence my ability to check this forum every few days, but it'll be awhile before I settle down enough (if I ever do) to put a functional lab together and play around with the molecular world first-hand again. As for analysis of the Cyprenil, I'm honestly very surprised that nobody has published anything along those lines on the internet yet (at least that I've been able to find), especially given all the hullaballoo about citrate vs. hydrochloride. Of course DEDI claims that Cyprenil and Selepryl are both fake, but where is the proof? An independent analysis or two is easy enough to get done as a favor if you're a pharmaceutical distributor (even an EX-pharmaceutical distributor), which they are, and the report would be easy enough to upload if you've got your own website, which they do. Yet as with many of their space cadet claims, they don't bother with irrelevant fluff like...proof. That, to me, is strong evidence that they're full of sh*t.
As for me personally, I'm enjoying the effects of the selegiline I've got, whatever form it may be (I feel like I'm getting my A-game back more and more every day, and it hasn't even been 2 weeks). I ordered some capsules of Mucuna pruriens bean extract to synergize with it and cost-effectively augment its effects (since the bean extract is much cheaper than the selegiline). I've heard good things about the combo, the Mucuna pruriens has a hefty amount of dopamine precursors in it, quite a few neuroprotective compounds, etc. so it sounds like selegiline's perfect other half to me.
Mahalo kids =)
Posted by undopaminergic on May 3, 2008, at 11:20:59
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on May 3, 2008, at 2:56:34
>
> As for me personally, I'm enjoying the effects of the selegiline I've got, whatever form it may be (I feel like I'm getting my A-game back more and more every day, and it hasn't even been 2 weeks).
>Cool. I noticed the strongest effect on the first day, but no improvement over time.
> I ordered some capsules of Mucuna pruriens bean extract to synergize with it and cost-effectively augment its effects (since the bean extract is much cheaper than the selegiline). I've heard good things about the combo, the Mucuna pruriens has a hefty amount of dopamine precursors in it, quite a few neuroprotective compounds, etc. so it sounds like selegiline's perfect other half to me.
>I tried that combination too, but it worked very poorly, so I tried L-dopa+benserazide instead of the herb, but that wasn't really any better.
Posted by bulldog2 on May 3, 2008, at 18:08:12
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on May 3, 2008, at 11:20:59
I think it's the elevation of pea that gives selegiline an AD response..So maybe low dose pea or l-phenyalanine which converts to pea or partly to pea..there are various forms of phenylalaine and there are various claims of which converts to pea. the d and dl forms have various claims.
Posted by bulldog2 on May 3, 2008, at 18:23:04
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on May 3, 2008, at 18:08:12
Wonder how much sublingual you need to inhibit mao-a? Also at that dose would you need to follow the diet since the absorption is bypassing the stomach.
Posted by Ezekiel on May 4, 2008, at 4:22:48
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by bulldog2 on May 3, 2008, at 18:23:04
Great commentary on the perennial Cytrate vs. HCL debate everybody! Also, thanks alucard for elucidating chemical principles for the rest of us non-specialists, I took one pharmacology & inorganic chem class in college, so I know just enough to be dangerous! I've been fixated on this debate for 2 weeks ever since I decided to try deprenyl & began researching it earnestly, as a result of reading over this thread I feel like I understand the issues a little more objectively now. Ok now back to the point of my post.
Hopefully my question for you all isn't to much of a digression: i.e., is there a big difference in AD/motivational efficacy if one ingests deprenyl tabs (I just ordered some generic tabs) vs. subligual liquid under the tongue? Does the liquid possess a greater AD effect (or just greater any effect!) via the liquid route due to directly entering circulation w/o undergoing any first pass breakdown in the liver?
If someone has experience with both modes of deprenyl delivery and would be willing to enlighten me, well then that would just be faaaaaantastic :=]
Posted by Alucard on May 4, 2008, at 15:16:10
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Ezekiel on May 4, 2008, at 4:22:48
Ezekiel - I don't have experience with both forms, or even much personal experience with the form I'm taking, but I did research other people's opinions pretty heavily and the gist of what I got about liquid vs. pill was that it pretty much depends on the individual. Some people strongly preferred the liquid, but a few said the pill form was definitely more effective for them. Since you've got the pills, just make sure to always take them with a meal that's got a decent amount of fat in it because that increases bioavailability by a factor of 3 - 4 times, a huge difference for getting your money's worth. For motivational/antidepressant purposes (the same reason I'm taking the stuff) you might want to take some phenylalanine or tyrosine (NOT tyramine) with it, or maybe a Mucuna pruriens extract. That's just educated speculation on my part, however, and a big thing to keep in mind on this forum seems to be: "Your mileage may vary".
Something to keep an eye out for: the first week or so that I was taking the liquid, I felt a pretty strong urge to do some serious napping around 1pm-2pm daily. I indulged (I'm in the tropics where a lot of people do that anyway) and it felt incredibly refreshing and by the second week I had "recharged the batteries" enough that I didn't feel like napping any more. Maybe the deprenyl allowed my body to demand the rest it needed? Or maybe it wasn't related to the deprenyl at all, but if the same thing happens to you, give it a week or two before deciding that it's the exact opposite of motivational.
Good luck buddy! I'll post here when I start the Mucuna pruriens extract and have a better personal feel of how well it works for amotivational depression. You be sure to let us know how the pill form works out for you, yea?
Related questions: Anybody have personal experience with L-phenylalanine vs. the racemic DL form (DLPA)? I've read the opinions of many people who swear that only the L form by itself works, but just as many who swear that DLPA is far more effective for our purposes. And what about skipping the phenylalanine and going straight to the L-tyrosine? Or both? Thoughts anyone?
Posted by bulldog2 on May 4, 2008, at 16:45:35
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on May 4, 2008, at 15:16:10
> Ezekiel - I don't have experience with both forms, or even much personal experience with the form I'm taking, but I did research other people's opinions pretty heavily and the gist of what I got about liquid vs. pill was that it pretty much depends on the individual. Some people strongly preferred the liquid, but a few said the pill form was definitely more effective for them. Since you've got the pills, just make sure to always take them with a meal that's got a decent amount of fat in it because that increases bioavailability by a factor of 3 - 4 times, a huge difference for getting your money's worth. For motivational/antidepressant purposes (the same reason I'm taking the stuff) you might want to take some phenylalanine or tyrosine (NOT tyramine) with it, or maybe a Mucuna pruriens extract. That's just educated speculation on my part, however, and a big thing to keep in mind on this forum seems to be: "Your mileage may vary".
>
> Something to keep an eye out for: the first week or so that I was taking the liquid, I felt a pretty strong urge to do some serious napping around 1pm-2pm daily. I indulged (I'm in the tropics where a lot of people do that anyway) and it felt incredibly refreshing and by the second week I had "recharged the batteries" enough that I didn't feel like napping any more. Maybe the deprenyl allowed my body to demand the rest it needed? Or maybe it wasn't related to the deprenyl at all, but if the same thing happens to you, give it a week or two before deciding that it's the exact opposite of motivational.
>
> Good luck buddy! I'll post here when I start the Mucuna pruriens extract and have a better personal feel of how well it works for amotivational depression. You be sure to let us know how the pill form works out for you, yea?
>
> Related questions: Anybody have personal experience with L-phenylalanine vs. the racemic DL form (DLPA)? I've read the opinions of many people who swear that only the L form by itself works, but just as many who swear that DLPA is far more effective for our purposes. And what about skipping the phenylalanine and going straight to the L-tyrosine? Or both? Thoughts anyone?what dose of the liquid were you doing? I would think with the sublingual it would be easier to get mao-a inhibtion than with the pills..Maybe like emsam without dietary restrictions at low doses. I wouldn't use tyrosine as it basically becomes ne and da. The phenylalanine gives you pea also which is good for depression. Some have used pea straight at low doses with selegiline. But you have to make sure you don't get into high doses and get blood pressure spikes.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 4, 2008, at 21:36:34
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Alucard on May 4, 2008, at 15:16:10
> just make sure to always take them with a meal that's got a decent amount of fat in it because that increases bioavailability by a factor of 3 - 4 times, a huge difference for getting your money's worth.
>That does increase the bioavailability of selegiline itself, but it has the opposite effect as far as the metabolites are concerned. The reason why some people find ingestion to be more effective than sublingual absorption may be the metabolism of selegiline to L-methamphetamine and L-amphetamine in the liver. With regard to neuroprotection, the formation of desmethylselegiline is also of relevance.
I would be very interested in learning about comparative experiences with selegiline and the other selective MAO-B inhibitor, rasagiline, which does not give rise to amphetamine metabolites - this would help clarify the relative roles of the different chemical entities.
> For motivational/antidepressant purposes (the same reason I'm taking the stuff) you might want to take some phenylalanine or tyrosine (NOT tyramine) with it, or maybe a Mucuna pruriens extract. That's just educated speculation on my part, however, and a big thing to keep in mind on this forum seems to be: "Your mileage may vary".
>
> Related questions: Anybody have personal experience with L-phenylalanine vs. the racemic DL form (DLPA)? I've read the opinions of many people who swear that only the L form by itself works, but just as many who swear that DLPA is far more effective for our purposes. And what about skipping the phenylalanine and going straight to the L-tyrosine? Or both? Thoughts anyone?
>The reason for using L- or D,L-phenylalanine rather than tyrosine or L-dopa (including Mucuna pruriens) is that it serves as a precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA is the preferred substrate of MAO-B, which selegiline inhibits, and is similar to amphetamine in its pharmacological actions: it releases dopamine (DA) and noradrenaline (NA) from storage vesicles into the cytoplasm, and reverses the direction of the DA and NA transporters, resulting in the massive efflux of the neurotransmitters into the synaptic cleft. Unless one has advanced Parkinson's disease, the effect of PEA on synaptic DA concentrations is far more substantial than that of L-dopa or other DA precursors. D-phenylalanine is more effective as a PEA precursor than the L-isomer as it is not subject to hydroxylation (to tyrosine), but personally, I found both inadequate, and had to resort to using PEA directly.
Eventually, I found the use of PEA and selegiline not to be very productive. Alternatives that I've since taken up in preference include methylphenidate, modafinil, memantine and some amisulpride or sulpiride.
Posted by Amigan on May 5, 2008, at 1:45:03
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on May 4, 2008, at 21:36:34
> > just make sure to always take them with a meal that's got a decent amount of fat in it because that increases bioavailability by a factor of 3 - 4 times, a huge difference for getting your money's worth.
> >
>
> That does increase the bioavailability of selegiline itself, but it has the opposite effect as far as the metabolites are concerned. The reason why some people find ingestion to be more effective than sublingual absorption may be the metabolism of selegiline to L-methamphetamine and L-amphetamine in the liver. With regard to neuroprotection, the formation of desmethylselegiline is also of relevance.So, you get more metabolites in your system if you ingest selegiline on an empty stomach? Interesting! I used to think that both the bio-availability of selegiline AND its metabolites increases with food. Thanks for the information!
I'm one of the few people who finds the oral route to be more effective. I'll try to ingest it without food and see what happens.
Posted by undopaminergic on May 5, 2008, at 9:31:23
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by Amigan on May 5, 2008, at 1:45:03
> > > just make sure to always take them with a meal that's got a decent amount of fat in it because that increases bioavailability by a factor of 3 - 4 times, a huge difference for getting your money's worth.
> > >
> >
> > That does increase the bioavailability of selegiline itself, but it has the opposite effect as far as the metabolites are concerned. The reason why some people find ingestion to be more effective than sublingual absorption may be the metabolism of selegiline to L-methamphetamine and L-amphetamine in the liver. With regard to neuroprotection, the formation of desmethylselegiline is also of relevance.
>
> So, you get more metabolites in your system if you ingest selegiline on an empty stomach? Interesting! I used to think that both the bio-availability of selegiline AND its metabolites increases with food. Thanks for the information!
> I'm one of the few people who finds the oral route to be more effective. I'll try to ingest it without food and see what happens.
>I just tried to verify that my recollection of selegiline pharmacokinetics was correct, but I can't find any references confirming increased bioavailability of the metabolites when selegiline is taken without food; one study suggests that the metabolites are unaffected by coadministration with food, whereas the bioavailability of selegiline is increased. Anyway, it still seems plausible that the increased metabolism of selegiline when taken on an empty stomach would increase production of the metabolites.
Posted by alucard on May 6, 2008, at 17:22:37
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by undopaminergic on May 5, 2008, at 9:31:23
>the increased metabolism of selegiline when taken on an empty stomach would increase production of the metabolites.
That makes more sense to me too. Bioavailability = absorption of the primary molecule (selegiline in this case), and since breakdown metabolism happens after absorption it only makes sense that starting with more would lead to more, not less, of the end products. Perhaps the article you read stated that the RATIO of selegiline to its metabolites was lower when taken on an empty stomach? So there would be less selegiline RELATIVE to its metabolites when taken with food, but more of both selegiline and the metabolites overall.
Incidentally, with the liquid sublingual form I haven't noticed a difference with vs. without food, so I just take it with as clean a mouth as possible (i.e. I brush my teeth, rinse with water a few times, then wait 5 minutes and put the drops in), same concept as cleaning the skin on an area where you're going to use a dermal patch.
Posted by Alucard on July 3, 2008, at 17:49:10
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by alucard on May 6, 2008, at 17:22:37
Selepryl has definitely turned out to be more effective, and refrigeration seems to make it work better as well (but maybe that's only true for extremely hot/humid climates like where I live, since refrigerators dry things out in addition to cooling them down)
That's my personal opinion, and so far as effectiveness for depression goes?
3 drops Selepryl in the morning with 1 or 2 Mucuna Pruriens extract pills (~60mg of L-dopa in each) at least an hour before any food and then late in the afternoon, at least 2 hours after a meal and 1 hour before the next meal I take 1 or 2 500mg L-Tryptophan pills. Works wonders for my motivation, sleep, patience, energy, and overall happiness and enjoyment of life.
Aloha, enjoy yourselves kids!
Posted by GarbageMan on December 18, 2008, at 4:04:28
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by alucard on May 6, 2008, at 17:22:37
I can tell you from first hand experience that I prefer liquid selegiline citrate over any of the alternative forms. Over a period of four years I've taken HCL, EMSAM and Zelepar(sublingual tabs that dissolve under your mouth). EMSAM is far too potent for me and actually makes me feel rather tired. Zelepar is very nice but given that LSC exists, it's neither worth the expense nor the hassle to achieve the product from a doctor. HCL works great as well but is mild in terms of positive effects by comparison.
I'm currently taking Cyprenil and I love this tonic so if you're tossed between which tonic to go with, Cyprenil is 'good enough'. Within thirty minutes(often much quicker)of placing LSC under my tongue, I feel rather invigorated. There is a very pleasing and mild euphoria that takes over. My thoughts become much clearer and calculating. I feel energized to take on intellectual tasks: reading and writing in particular. This is somewhat hilarious given that I deliver garbage for a living.
I'll often sit at my kitchen table and write short stories about my past life for hours on end after work. Why? For who? I'm not sure really. I don't plan on publishing them. It simply relaxes me to put words onto paper now. Who would want to read about a garbage man anyways?
It's all rather amusing b/c my wife will stand there looking at me from afar, frustrated, wondering why I'm not watching the usual sitcoms with her like I used to.
Frankly I'm not in the least bit bothered by the fact that she's upset with me b/c I'm completely absorbed in my own thoughts. Verbal fluidity is markedly pronounced as words seem to flow from my mouth like a knife slicing through butter. (I laugh at my usage of these phrases such as markedly pronounced and verbal fluidity and even my lame attempt at a simile haahahha)
If you knew me, you would be laughing with me. Like I said, I'm a garbage man and I'm certainly not the type of person that says 'markedly pronounced' or that says 'certainly' for that matter or 'for that matter'.
I'm not an intellectual at all. I've read very little in my life. If weren't first selegiline, I probably wouldn't even know who the current President of the United States is. I never even bothered to make it through college. Although I had always told myself that I should read and study but I never quite seemed to gather the mental energy required to do so.
Writer??? HAH!! The notion of me writing at the kitchen table in my garbage covered overalls is seemingly ridiculous. Yet upon taking a single drop of LSC, I feel compelled to express my thoughts for hours at a time. I've written over forty short stories since taking selegiline which I've been on and off of for four years now. I suppose I've always wanted to write but, akin to reading, the mental energy to do so was never quite there.
Perhaps you're wondering how a lowly garbage man such as myself even came across an exotic drug like selegiline. That's a fairly long story but about four years ago, I was having sexually related issues and finally gathered the nerve to see a doctor about them. After a few sessions he prescribed selegiline HCL 2.5mg bid.
Which brings me to perhaps the most significant aspect of selegiline. After approx an hour or so a taking LSC, I notice a pronounced increase in my libido. Everything in the sexual arena seemed to be intensify; even my ability to fantasize.
At present, when I bother to break myself away from my intellectual pursuits and tend to my wife's sexual needs, my wife has never been more pleased. Our sex life has never been better. I actually feel like a man again. Not a garbage man.
But there is yet one more seemingly miraculous result that I've received from this tonic. It seems to build muscle. Which make me wonder, is this stuff going to increase the size of my endowment as well??
I'm nothing close to a body builder(5'11 and 175 lbs as of six months ago). I've recently started to experiment with lifting weights. Not sure why? I just felt the need to workout similar to how I felt the need to write.
I've noticed rapid increases in strength. Normally I would only be able to bench press 160 lbs at maximum exertion--and that was ten years ago. However, after a few days of taking LSC, I was able to bench 215 lbs with ease. I can now bench 345 lbs after six months of regular working out. I can't believe it? Even my wife has been commenting on my physique and has been wondering where the hell my abdominals are coming from? She keeps remarking, "Are you sure you're not taking steroids?". I'm actually starting to look like I might be.
I've also been measuring my body fat for about six months as a means of documenting physical proof of what I'm experiencing. My body fat has gone from from 15% to 8%. After a month it was down to 13%. After two months down to 10%. After six months, 8% and it seems to have stabilized there.
Perhaps you're thinking this is simply from not eating as much--which is true, there is a degree of appetite suppression from LSC--however I'm fifteen pounds heavier. As of this morning, I way 190 lbs with 8% body fat. That's more than 15 lbs of muscle in six months. How is that possible when most of my exercise is composed of cardio while I only spend about 20 minutes, 3 times a week, lifting weights. I definitely don't have good genetics either. I mean I've never 'really' lifted anything but garbage cans before. Now I'm in the gym every day.
So i ask this question as a lowly garbage man who knows nothing about biochemistry except what he can scrape up from the Internet, "Is there some sort of direct correlation between dopamine and testosterone?" B/c I honestly feel like I'm sixteen again after four years of taking this stuff.
Much of the effect which I've been describing is the only reason I've ever even stopped. I seem to become a completely different person both physically and mentally. For example, I'm not the type of person that would ever share his thoughts communally like this in an open forum for others to read. Yet for some reason I feel very little inhibition. Almost none in fact. Fear seems to have subsided from my life. Is that good or bad? It hasn't gotten me into any trouble so I don't see it as a particularly negative thing. But how is that possible? I mean how is it that more people don't know about selegiline or am I just a freak case? If it really does what I'm claiming, you would think it would be fairly widespread. Right? Well that's my story. A bit long winded but you can't go wrong with the liquid stuff.
Posted by desolationrower on December 18, 2008, at 11:51:45
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s » alucard, posted by GarbageMan on December 18, 2008, at 4:04:28
Deprenyl didn't work as an antidepressant for me, but i did find it to be a positive overall experience. Sounds like it is really working for you. Its really quite a good tonic, I think its the kind of thing that just about everyone should consider taking to not only protect brain function against aging but also for the immediate benefits on libido and energy. Its great to hear someone who has gotten more out of life because of something like this.
-d/r
Posted by karl on December 18, 2008, at 21:24:42
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s » alucard, posted by GarbageMan on December 18, 2008, at 4:04:28
does dr. bob delete obvious advertisements like this?
Posted by karl on December 18, 2008, at 22:16:45
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s » alucard, posted by GarbageMan on December 18, 2008, at 4:04:28
and if he's going to allow obvious advertisements, people going for the 'mao-b inhibition' in selegiline should know that:
after four days, "inhibition of platelet MAO-B activity is approximately 95% after a daily dose of 2.5 mg selegiline [ORAL, HYDROCHLORIDE], whereas it takes only 48 hours (two doses) for doses of 5 mg and 7.5 mg to achieve this degree of inhibition." [parentheses mine]
any selegiline that reaches the bloodstream is metabolized by the liver into methamphetamine. much more selegiline is ABSORBED into the bloodstream sublingually [under the tongue] than orally [in the stomach, small intestine]. the reason selegiline [any form] is more invigorating under the tongue, therefore, is that MORE of it is metabolized into methamphetamine, and more quickly.
Posted by desolationrower on December 19, 2008, at 2:12:26
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by karl on December 18, 2008, at 22:16:45
> and if he's going to allow obvious advertisements, people going for the 'mao-b inhibition' in selegiline should know that:
>
> after four days, "inhibition of platelet MAO-B activity is approximately 95% after a daily dose of 2.5 mg selegiline [ORAL, HYDROCHLORIDE], whereas it takes only 48 hours (two doses) for doses of 5 mg and 7.5 mg to achieve this degree of inhibition." [parentheses mine]
>
> source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9853994?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
> any selegiline that reaches the bloodstream is metabolized by the liver into methamphetamine. much more selegiline is ABSORBED into the bloodstream sublingually [under the tongue] than orally [in the stomach, small intestine]. the reason selegiline [any form] is more invigorating under the tongue, therefore, is that MORE of it is metabolized into methamphetamine, and more quickly.When nutrients are absorbed from the intesting, they go directly to the liver via the portal vein. This is 'first pass metabolism.' Drugs entering otherwise may circulate w/o reaching the liver for a period of time. This is why oral drugs are more extensively metabolised before reaching the brain than otherwise administered drugs.
-d/r
Posted by karl on December 19, 2008, at 11:12:48
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by desolationrower on December 19, 2008, at 2:12:26
my mistake. too bad i can't delete MY post.
but people interested in the mao-b inhibition from selegiline should still know that it only takes a little bit to get near-full inhibition, and you can take it orally. at least according to the study i cited.
i'm curious: how many of you interested in the subject got the idea that mao-b inhibition would be helpful from david pearce's "Good Drug Guide"? he's real hot on selegiline even though he doesn't appear to be selling it [like he is knock-off amineptine].
anyone thinking of plunking down $1500 for 6 months of that stuff would probably be better served begging a generic ritalin prescription from their psych. $20 a month in my area.
Posted by desolationrower on December 19, 2008, at 13:39:59
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by karl on December 19, 2008, at 11:12:48
> my mistake. too bad i can't delete MY post.
>
> but people interested in the mao-b inhibition from selegiline should still know that it only takes a little bit to get near-full inhibition, and you can take it orally. at least according to the study i cited.
>
> i'm curious: how many of you interested in the subject got the idea that mao-b inhibition would be helpful from david pearce's "Good Drug Guide"? he's real hot on selegiline even though he doesn't appear to be selling it [like he is knock-off amineptine].
>
> anyone thinking of plunking down $1500 for 6 months of that stuff would probably be better served begging a generic ritalin prescription from their psych. $20 a month in my area.hm, that was way more than i paid, but i bought overseas at the time, so it might be different. I think selegiline and classic stims each have some + & - that the other doesn't, so they aren't totally interchangable.
Did you find it unhelpful when you took it?
-d/r
Posted by karl on December 19, 2008, at 15:15:07
In reply to Re: A few Cyprenil (liquid selegiline citrate) ?s, posted by desolationrower on December 19, 2008, at 13:39:59
i haven't taken amineptine. servier doesn't make it anymore and the only place i've seen it is on www.biopsychiatry.com where this pearce guy is pushing it pretty hard, at a premium markup since it's only made in small batches by a private laboratory.
from the way amineptine is described, it sounds like it feels like it's somewhere between wellbutrin and ritalin/cocaine on the "upper" spectrum. how did you find it?
i think selegiline confuses people because they don't understand which sensations are caused by which of its two actions. since it is both metabolized into meth AND inhibits mao-b, people have a hard time figuring out which of the two is doing what to them and at what times. i certainly have difficulty discerning and understanding the various feelings.
but if people are interested in seeing what pure mao-b inhibition feels like with a minimum of side effects, they should know that, like i said before, 2.5mg oral selegiline hydrochloride once per day is enough to inhibit 95% of the enzyme. again, that's according to this study.
and d/r, i want to take back taking back what i said earlier about selegeline's metabolism.
selegiline under the tongue [citrate or hydrochloride are the same thing, people ought not be fooled; the base doesn't matter.] is more invigorating because more selegiline is absorbed into the bloodstream than orally [wikipedia says 4.4% of the selegiline one swallows is absorbed into the bloodstream, i have no data on how much is absorbed sublingually, though it's certainly more], therefore more is converted into meth.
you're right in saying that sublingual selegiline doesn't undergo first-pass metabolism, but it is still readily metabolized by the liver whenever it gets there. and sublingually, it gets there quickly.
you're right, not through the portal vein, but through the "hepatic artery, a branch of a main heart artery called the aorta, which brings oxygenated blood from the heart to the liver. Sometimes up to a quarter of all the blood in the body is circulating through the liver."
source: http://www.cpmc.org/advanced/liver/patients/topics/liver-function.html
it seems like there's a lot of confusion out there about selegiline's action because of 1) its numerous properties [meth metabolites, mao-b inhibition, antioxidant] and 2) modes of delivery [tablet, liquid, patch] that entities of varying moral caliber have cooked up and it would be nice to have someone who really knows what they're talking about [unlike myself] clear up the matter on this board so that people who search for information on the once-simple selegiline molecule have something reliable to go on as they try to make themselves feel better so they don't have to listen to the [aptly named] GarbageMan. or me.
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