![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 11:35:37
In reply to Re: Benzo-induced memory impairment » laima, posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2007, at 11:02:53
> Laima can we give Ashton a break please? Love Phillipa
I was actually citing her as a knowledgeable authority- I actually believe and respect a lot of what she says! Much has proven to ring true to my own experiences, at least. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.
Posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 12:24:16
In reply to Re: Benzo-induced memory impairment » laima, posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2007, at 11:02:53
Specifically, I found some of her descriptions of long term benzo use to ring true to what I experienced, such as sensory dulling, and I believe her when she talks about the possibility of daily mini-withdrawals after serious tolerance developes. I also found her descriptions of withdrawal to be pretty dead-on- though mine didn't last nearly as long as what she suggested. Probably depends on how much, what kind benzo used, for how long.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2007, at 12:30:32
In reply to Re: Benzo-induced memory impairment, posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 10:25:18
> I've been off for about 3 months, but while on it, I had eventualy developed a real tolerance to it, for I used it a number of years- doctor agreed I likely had built up quite a tolerance. I was also, by the end of my using it, a much more anxious and jittery person, prone to shortness of breath, stomache aches, panic attacks, etc- than I ever was before I started the benzos, or since coming off. I speculate- could I have been going through daily withdrawals? Dr. wrinkled up his face with skepticism when I suggested the possibility, but I think Heather Ashton mentions somewhere on her site that it's a possibility.
I just went through the same thing with oxycodone. I thought I was losing my mind, experiencing loss of pain control at the same time as having withdrawal symptoms, while on a stable dose of continual release medication. I found some references to this phenomenon in published literature, with the syndrome being called Downhill Spiral Syndrome. Being stuck between pain and withdrawal, with the only resort being full withdrawal of an opiate, was horrendous.
I hypothesize massive upregulation of receptors, the body's efforts to regain control over some important aspect of our physiology. Something that can only come from long-term use, I'd imagine. I can only wonder at what unknown variable triggers this response, as it appears to be fairly rare? Or simply poorly documented? It's bloody easy to blame the victim for this experience, methinks.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2007, at 12:40:35
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » laima, posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2007, at 12:30:32
Lar is this why the benzos only let me sleep and don't relieve anxiety during the day? Love Jan
Posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 12:55:03
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2007, at 12:40:35
Yep, benzos in high enough doses do cause short term memory encoding problems (this is why booze + benzos cause blackouts so quickly).
Nothing you can do but lower your dose.
Posted by temoigneur on February 6, 2007, at 22:20:02
In reply to Re: Benzo-induced memory impairment » temoigneur, posted by Netch on February 6, 2007, at 7:32:31
> Have got a correct diagnosis?
>
> If you are bipolar you may consider an anticonvulsive drug. Some anticonvulsants are anxiolytic, they inhibit the metabolism of GABA or increase its release.
> Another option could be lithium.Thanks for the feedback.... My Diagnosis is OCD MDD, severe anxiety.... I can't seem to function on low levels of clonazepam unless I just take a stimulant.... which is great for two days... then I go completely psychotic.. I've tried every mood stabilizer except lithium - (tried it on my own with a 'walk in ' doctor) perhaps lamictal would be worth another shot.. I just remember it making me really tired.
Depakote put me in a great mood and decreased anxiety, but I was in lala land, and looked the g. yr blimp. lithium made me tired... but as I say the dose wasn't regulated by a specialist... I'm at the low end of the thyroid scale... maybe I should consider lithium + thyroid treatment if I could convince my doctor. how about tyrosine and mag. as an anxiolytic to replace /augment clonazepam.... the clonazepam turns me into a space cadet... but I'm so anxious, with guilty obsessions and compulsions when i try to come off without another augmenting mood stabilizer.
Can the lethargy from lamictal go away after a few weeks? Maybe I didn't give it long enough a shot... Also does anyone recommend what the best form of lithium might be - I know I'm all over the place... thanks for all your input
Posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 23:40:48
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » laima, posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2007, at 12:30:32
Hmm, well maybe there is something to this- makes sense- one developes a tolerance to a supposedly very strong substance, it becomes never enough...body overcomes it? My Dr. did mention something about how generally speaking, a typical withdrawal after tolerance can bring on an exaggerated version of what the drug was originally supposed to correct- ie, benzos: excuciating anxiety, stimulants, lethargy and appetite...sleeping pills: sleepless nights. I know I'm repeating an overly simplified version of a dumbed-down technical explanation, but the part about benzos and stims has rung true to my own experiences. And pot, when I used it, used to give me severe, desolate feeling depression-hangovers a day or two after smoking. I shudder to think about possible consequences of my antidepressant use.In any case, I really do feel amazingly less anxiety sans benzo- I'm genuinely stunned. For the first time in several years- no panic attacks, no daily vomitting before going to work, no hyperventilation, no emergency room visits- since no benzos. It's been about 3 months. And I sleep much better. They were a godsend at first. And I do still miss the glorious relief of sinking into the totally anxiety-free zone which I used to experience at one time. Now, definately not anxiety-free, but nothing like what I just described.
Did I read somewhere that long-term benzo use does something to shut or slow down certain receptors in the brain? And so when benzo suddenly goes away, these receptors go nuts, overwhelmed by all stimuli?
Oh yea- as in my own case, easy to blame the victim indeed- as desperate victim ups dosages that doctor won't raise, in vain attempt to ease excruciating and escalating symptoms, just as an effort to still be able to function or get by, or to simply not crack-up.
Very sorry to hear of your experience, Larry. I'm glad you pulled through. It could not have been easy.
> > I've been off for about 3 months, but while on it, I had eventualy developed a real tolerance to it, for I used it a number of years- doctor agreed I likely had built up quite a tolerance. I was also, by the end of my using it, a much more anxious and jittery person, prone to shortness of breath, stomache aches, panic attacks, etc- than I ever was before I started the benzos, or since coming off. I speculate- could I have been going through daily withdrawals? Dr. wrinkled up his face with skepticism when I suggested the possibility, but I think Heather Ashton mentions somewhere on her site that it's a possibility.
>
> I just went through the same thing with oxycodone. I thought I was losing my mind, experiencing loss of pain control at the same time as having withdrawal symptoms, while on a stable dose of continual release medication. I found some references to this phenomenon in published literature, with the syndrome being called Downhill Spiral Syndrome. Being stuck between pain and withdrawal, with the only resort being full withdrawal of an opiate, was horrendous.
>
> I hypothesize massive upregulation of receptors, the body's efforts to regain control over some important aspect of our physiology. Something that can only come from long-term use, I'd imagine. I can only wonder at what unknown variable triggers this response, as it appears to be fairly rare? Or simply poorly documented? It's bloody easy to blame the victim for this experience, methinks.
>
> Lar
Posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 23:44:09
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima!, posted by dbc on February 6, 2007, at 12:55:03
..you would think. But that didn't work in my case so well. "Nothing" worked much better, as if it stopped a cycle of chronic withdrawal. Bummer. Big bummer.
>
> Nothing you can do but lower your dose.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 7:33:49
In reply to Larry, Link Benzo-induced memory impairment, posted by temoigneur on February 6, 2007, at 1:48:25
According to my research, the best drug for this is galantamine (Reminyl, Nivalin). It has been shown in animal studies to counteract the benzodiazepine-induced decrease of ACh release (I forget the specific region of the brain, but it was relevant to memory). They have used it for decades in Eastern Europe to treat benzodiazepine-induced memory imapairment. To treat schizophrenia/psychosis there, at times they would place the patient on up to 20mg/day of clonazepam. The galantamine would help the cognitive symptoms of the schizophrenia while counteracting the clonazepam-induced sedation, memory impairment, and myorelaxation. IMHO, this is far more humane than using e.g. haloperidol!
Try it, it works.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 7:46:30
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » laima, posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2007, at 12:30:32
I am not negating your experience, but AFAIK the idea that you can never get back to "normal" after using opioids is a myth (my doctor said this as well). At the worst time in my life, I was using 20+ bags a day of [good] heroin IV. Granted, I did have buprenorphine treatment, but I am off of that now and feel no hyperalgesia, cravings, etc. Of course, I am on psychiatric medication, but self-medication is why I was using that to begin with.
People often discount the fact that after having experienced real anxiety relief, coming back to their "default" state can appear more stressful. What is going on is probably psychological. Of course, there is a neural substrate for everything, but in my experience, talking about this without any empirical data (like an fMRI) when trying to improve one's own condition is just another neurosis, i.e. an attempt to control what one feels is out of control by controlling something else. Unfortunately, this whole world of neurotransmitters, etc. is ultimately irrelevant--the clinical presentation is what is important.
I think that if someone feels better on benzodiazepines, they should be on benzodiazepines. Personally, I think opioids are a better choice; nobody ever dies from opioid withdrawal. With benzodiazepines, there is a small chance due to excitotoxicity upon withdrawal of GABAnergic impairment. However, I stress that this is all theory and that I have been through withdrawal from 80mg/day of diazepam to 0 over a THREE DAY taper (I wish I sued that hospital), and I don't feel as if there was any lasting damage.
Best of luck.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 7, 2007, at 12:53:56
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima!, posted by laima on February 6, 2007, at 23:40:48
>
> Hmm, well maybe there is something to this- makes sense- one developes a tolerance to a supposedly very strong substance, it becomes never enough...body overcomes it?But certainly, what we're talking about is not the most common experience. I think the phenomenon we had is not typical. For a variety of reasons, I suspect it is under-reported, nonetheless.
> I shudder to think about possible consequences of my antidepressant use.
I hear you, but what might the consequence of never having used one be?
> In any case, I really do feel amazingly less anxiety sans benzo- I'm genuinely stunned. For the first time in several years- no panic attacks, no daily vomitting before going to work, no hyperventilation, no emergency room visits- since no benzos.
Once I got through the withdrawals completely (definitely not during withdrawals), the pain was actually more tolerable. It had lost it's sharpness, despite being of similar intensity. I struggle to describe it accurately. The pain was worse on the opiates, than off. But that is only true for this latter period of dysregulation.
> It's been about 3 months. And I sleep much better. They were a godsend at first. And I do still miss the glorious relief of sinking into the totally anxiety-free zone which I used to experience at one time. Now, definately not anxiety-free, but nothing like what I just described.
I am sorely tempted to resume using my painkillers, having just resumed physiotherapy. So far, it's just meditation and me.
> Did I read somewhere that long-term benzo use does something to shut or slow down certain receptors in the brain? And so when benzo suddenly goes away, these receptors go nuts, overwhelmed by all stimuli?
That seems reasonable, but what happened to us? How is it that continued use of stable doses met with such dramatic loss of drug effects? This was more than tolerance, methinks.
> Oh yea- as in my own case, easy to blame the victim indeed- as desperate victim ups dosages that doctor won't raise, in vain attempt to ease excruciating and escalating symptoms, just as an effort to still be able to function or get by, or to simply not crack-up.There is a potent stigma to also surmount. Yes.
> Very sorry to hear of your experience, Larry.Thank you.
> I'm glad you pulled through. It could not have been easy.
Not easy, but necessary. And I think it was that realization that made enough difference to carry me through. The staff at the pain clinic have made numerous comments about how amazed they are that I pulled it off, on my own. You gotta do what you gotta do, is all.
Thanks for the validation. It's very important to me.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 7, 2007, at 13:06:44
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Larry Hoover, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 7:46:30
> I am not negating your experience, but AFAIK the idea that you can never get back to "normal" after using opioids is a myth (my doctor said this as well).
I'm sorry, I'm confused. Where did you get this concept from anything I said? I think my body has gotten back to a more normal state of constant pain, given the nine weeks since last use.
> At the worst time in my life, I was using 20+ bags a day of [good] heroin IV. Granted, I did have buprenorphine treatment, but I am off of that now and feel no hyperalgesia, cravings, etc.
Unfortunately, hyperalgesia (and allodynia, as well as spontaneous firings) are the nature of my disorder, preceding opiate use. They remain with me today. I never craved my opiates. I frankly detest them, but for the analgesia. Anyway, just giving you my experience.
> Of course, I am on psychiatric medication, but self-medication is why I was using that to begin with.
I don't deny that self-medication could have been a motivator for my using that substance, but I don't think I'd choose to use opiates for any reason. I've tossed large quantities over the years.
> People often discount the fact that after having experienced real anxiety relief, coming back to their "default" state can appear more stressful. What is going on is probably psychological.
It may be a factor, but there are clearly measurable differences in excitability of regions of the brain. I'm not up to looking for references just now, though.
> Of course, there is a neural substrate for everything, but in my experience, talking about this without any empirical data (like an fMRI) when trying to improve one's own condition is just another neurosis, i.e. an attempt to control what one feels is out of control by controlling something else. Unfortunately, this whole world of neurotransmitters, etc. is ultimately irrelevant--the clinical presentation is what is important.
In the end, I agree with your conclusion. Assigning symptoms of drug withdrawal to neurosis is not something I agree with, at all.
> I think that if someone feels better on benzodiazepines, they should be on benzodiazepines.
Agreed.
> Personally, I think opioids are a better choice; nobody ever dies from opioid withdrawal.
Not literally, but the depressed mood of opiate withdrawal can lead to self harm.
> With benzodiazepines, there is a small chance due to excitotoxicity upon withdrawal of GABAnergic impairment. However, I stress that this is all theory and that I have been through withdrawal from 80mg/day of diazepam to 0 over a THREE DAY taper (I wish I sued that hospital), and I don't feel as if there was any lasting damage.
In time, things find a more normal homeostasis. I'm sorry you went through that benzo experience. Three days? Geez.
> Best of luck.
Thanks.
Lar
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 14:00:08
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Chairman_MAO, posted by Larry Hoover on February 7, 2007, at 13:06:44
I misread what you wrote, sorry. If you are in constant pain, why has it been nine weeks since you last used opioids? Well, of course I know the usual answer to that question, but I hate to hear it.
I wasn't assigning symptoms of drug withdrawal to neurosis; I was referring to the desire to control what one views as out of control through the use of drugs based upon a neurophysiological justification--sans any empirical evidence--a neurosis. I have no problem with people taking drugs; the problem I have is the biopsychiatric rationale for medico-statist controls.
Yes, three days. The doctor simply said "I want you clean" and gave me a three-day Librium taper. It was a [cruel] joke; I was hallucinating and couldn't defacate for over a week without an enema due to the muscle tension. I easily could've had a seizure and died. At times I'd have multiple panic attacks in a row. I told my current doctor about this ordeal and he almost fell out of his chair; he said that to him, three MONTHS is bordering on rapid. I don't know if I'd ever have the gall to consent to "hospitalization" again. I went into the hospital once after that because I had nowhere to live and was suicidal, and all they did for me was take me off of the Nardil because I "couldn't be trusted" with it. I had to sign myself out AMA while in severe depression with agoraphobia and get back on the medication. They wanted to keep me for six weeks longer and put me on mood stabilizers despite the fact I've had bipolar disorder ruled out in the past. The only way I was able to get out was by filing a complaint and talking to the head doctor there, who happened to know me. She told me that she couldn't override what they were doing but that since I had never consented to this treatment when I signed in, I had a right to leave at any time. Fun. Abusive.
What you say about opioids and finding them unpleasant is actually--despite the widely held belief to the contrary--the norm. Most people given an intravenous injection of morphine find the experience extremely unpleasant and, needless to say, do not care to repeat it. Only those in pain find opioids desirable.
It is worthy of mention that Aristotle held that physical and emotional pain were the same thing.
Too bad we're not that "advanced" these days.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:49:20
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Larry Hoover, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 7:46:30
Posted by temoigneur on February 7, 2007, at 17:46:28
In reply to Re: Larry, Link Benzo-induced memory impairment » temoigneur, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 7:33:49
> According to my research, the best drug for this is galantamine (Reminyl, Nivalin). It has been shown in animal studies to counteract the benzodiazepine-induced decrease of ACh release (I forget the specific region of the brain, but it was relevant to memory). They have used it for decades in Eastern Europe to treat benzodiazepine-induced memory imapairment. To treat schizophrenia/psychosis there, at times they would place the patient on up to 20mg/day of clonazepam. The galantamine would help the cognitive symptoms of the schizophrenia while counteracting the clonazepam-induced sedation, memory impairment, and myorelaxation. IMHO, this is far more humane than using e.g. haloperidol!
>
> Try it, it works.Thank you Chairman Mao... this gives me such hope... I will talk to my doctor asap... is it available in Canada or the u.S., (I have access to meds on both sides) Thanks so much
Ben
Posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 18:42:43
In reply to Re: Larry, Link Benzo-induced memory impairment, posted by temoigneur on February 7, 2007, at 17:46:28
How come after 30some odd years of benzo use no memory impairment? I've gone off them several times no meds at all it was only when My thyroid went that ad's were added and the problems began. So I do not like ad's at all. I will stick with benzos any day. And I take the same or rather less than I did to start. Go figure. Love Phillipa
Posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 19:49:01
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » laima, posted by Larry Hoover on February 7, 2007, at 12:53:56
Hi Larry,The phenomena is currently fascinating to me- I do wonder how common it is or isn't- if no one believes in it, or knows to look for it, they perhaps don't simply recognize it? It makes logical sense to me, that people could build up tolerance to so-called addictive substances, and enter chronic mini-withdrawal states. But I really of course don't know, and lack any bio/chem training to use in trying to figure it out technically.
>but what happened to us? How is it that continued use of stable doses met with such dramatic loss of drug effects? This was more than tolerance, methinks.
I would LOVE to know.
> > I shudder to think about possible consequences of my antidepressant use.
>
> I hear you, but what might the consequence of never having used one be?Yes, I hear you too- but I originally started them as result of rather mundane adolescent crisis, which might better have been addressed by counseling. Regardless, I worry if they've changed my brain, if my brain is impaired from using them? Ie, why did prozac once work on it's own like magic, yet 20 years later, not only does IT not work, neither do most antidepressents I've tried since. Is my brain not the same? Well, not sure how to explain my unease, it's vague but gnawing. Mostly, I worry if I am more prone to depression, and less pharmaceutically receptive, than I would have been had I not started prozac so casually, so long ago- or if that notion just doesn't bear any validity. (?) Maybe not much point for me to worry about this particular question now though.
Whether you choose to resume your painkillers or not- like you say, a person has to do what they have to do. I do wonder if they might not be newly effective again after the break- but then you face the possibility later of a repeat of what already happened. So complicated, I don't envy your decision.
Warmest wishes,
Laima
Posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 21:20:47
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Larry Hoover, posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 19:49:01
Laima I think deserves it's own thread. If you take any med at all for any purpose will the day come when nothing works at all? Love Phillipa
Posted by temoigneur on February 8, 2007, at 2:37:34
In reply to Re: Larry, Link Benzo-induced memory impairment » temoigneur, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 7:33:49
> According to my research, the best drug for this is galantamine (Reminyl, Nivalin). It has been shown in animal studies to counteract the benzodiazepine-induced decrease of ACh release (I forget the specific region of the brain, but it was relevant to memory). They have used it for decades in Eastern Europe to treat benzodiazepine-induced memory imapairment. To treat schizophrenia/psychosis there, at times they would place the patient on up to 20mg/day of clonazepam. The galantamine would help the cognitive symptoms of the schizophrenia while counteracting the clonazepam-induced sedation, memory impairment, and myorelaxation. IMHO, this is far more humane than using e.g. haloperidol!
>
> Try it, it works.Hi Again Ch. MAO, could this be the attenuation of decades of suffering... I had to drop out of university because the benzo's affected my memory so adversely, and I was a neurotic mess without them. It seems like I've tried every conceivable combination of psychiatric drugs... I did show promise when I was younger, winning provincial medals in piano (bow) but I've deteriorated into a reclusive introvert, with no academic and limited social, prospects.
Anyway, are there any academic papers citing the use of a Cholinesterase inhibitors like galantamine for benzo-induced amnesia. I scoured Ovid with my limited search skills, and only came up with numerous articles citing it's use in Alzheimers.... with modest success. I'm very keen to try galantamine, but would need weighty medical literature to convince my pdoc or family physician. Any leads to any studies/reports on galatamine's treatment of med induced amnesia would be so much appreciated.
Thanks so much,
Ben
Posted by temoigneur on February 8, 2007, at 2:47:44
In reply to Re: Larry, Link Benzo-induced memory impairment » temoigneur, posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 18:42:43
> How come after 30some odd years of benzo use no memory impairment? I've gone off them several times no meds at all it was only when My thyroid went that ad's were added and the problems began. So I do not like ad's at all. I will stick with benzos any day. And I take the same or rather less than I did to start. Go figure. Love Phillipa
Phillipa this is interesting... I went to Biofeedback therapist who claims I have a thyroid problem. I had my TSH and T3 levels measured, and was just a bit below the 'average' range. The biofeedback therapist, however, using her allegedly sophisticated computer, insists that my thyroid is dysfunctional... and recommends I start supplementation with bovine thyroid.
So you're saying that when you're thyroid was working properly, you had no/little problem with benzo induced amnesia..... can i ask what benzo and dosage you were on? I currently take 3-6mg of clonazepam... and it just obliterates my memory... but on lower doses I'm neurotic and obsessive... I've literally tried everything. Do you think there could be a connection between thyroid problems and benzo induced amnesia.. Thanks so much for your input..
Ben
Posted by laima on February 8, 2007, at 8:31:04
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » laima, posted by Phillipa on February 7, 2007, at 21:20:47
> Laima I think deserves it's own thread. If you take any med at all for any purpose will the day come when nothing works at all? Love Phillipa
I sure hope not, I'm scared to even think about such a possibility!
But isn't it scary how many meds poop out? The board here is full of stories of antidepressents pooping out-some to never regain efficacy, benzos poop out- but you CAN regain efficacy, some stims can poop out- but again, you can regain considerable efficacy. (Why can some become re-effective, and others can't?) We've heard also heard stories now of sleep meds pooping out, zyprexa pooping out, painkillers pooping out. So what's up with the pooping out? Brain overcomes effects of what it considers to be the foreign substance? (?) I thought some antidepressents, for example, actually caused new neurons to grow? All of these meds mentioned operate by different mechanisms. This must be quite complicated. What on earth is going on? And would non-drug efforts, like those magnet treatments, the vagus nerve device, be any less to poop out? (?)
Meanwhile, I've been thinking to do my best to bolster my "brain power", to put myself into the best shape possible, if you forgive lack of better term right this moment. Making sure to sleep right, rest, good nutrition, avoid junk food and as many toxins as possible, fish oil galore, excercise. Adding some dlpa has really helped my Emsam. I believe all this is actually making a big difference in my mood these days. I've been speculatively wondering if maybe the use of drugs could contribute to the using up of brain nutrients, antioxidants- could this be a factor in drugs losing efficacy? I mean, for example, I've read that use of alcohol depletes a brain antioxidant with a long name that begins with "g"-is it far fetched to wonder if other psychoactive substances might also use up antioxidants or vitamins? I noticed some meds carry fine print warnings about not using if liver is strained- so the body is dealing with them as if they are toxic? (?) So I am trying to bolster myself. Would be nice if someone would do some research, and if appropriate, give advice, like, "If you use X, you need to take some extra vitamin z".
Just my totally amateur speculation-and could be groundless, or maybe a mere footnote. I guess I'll have a better answer if my nutrition/lifestyle efforts do the trick in preserving my med's efficacy in another 30-40 years. :) But meanwhile, I'm feeling MUCH better about how well my meds are working than I was about a month ago, before I got serious with my self-improvement program.
Posted by Phillipa on February 8, 2007, at 18:24:45
In reply to Thyroid dysfunc. related to benzo memory impairmt? » Phillipa, posted by temoigneur on February 8, 2007, at 2:47:44
Ben don't know where you live but you should see an endocrinologist who will run tests I've never even heard of on your thyroid . I have some wierd auto antigen. And bovine I don't think is used here. Mostly sythroid, cytomel, levothyroxin. Plus I've never had memory impairment from benzos. When on the highest doses was working and winning all types of awards and got nationally certified in psych and also drinking beer at night. And guess what I can still breath. No problem with that. Quit drinking when started chloral hydrate. Love Phillipa
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 10, 2007, at 14:15:25
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Larry Hoover, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 7, 2007, at 14:00:08
> I misread what you wrote, sorry. If you are in constant pain, why has it been nine weeks since you last used opioids? Well, of course I know the usual answer to that question, but I hate to hear it.
No, it's not the usual answer. I have grams of oxycodone, in various formulations. My body simply learned to reject it, or something like that. It's called Downhill Spiral Syndrome, at least by one doctor who believes in it. To go into withdrawals while on a substantial but stable dose of continual release drug, while simultaneously finding the pain escaping from underneath....I simply had to stop taking the drug, to end the horror.
> I wasn't assigning symptoms of drug withdrawal to neurosis; I was referring to the desire to control what one views as out of control through the use of drugs based upon a neurophysiological justification--sans any empirical evidence--a neurosis. I have no problem with people taking drugs; the problem I have is the biopsychiatric rationale for medico-statist controls.
I'm less inclined to that perspective, methinks.
> Yes, three days. The doctor simply said "I want you clean" and gave me a three-day Librium taper. It was a [cruel] joke; I was hallucinating and couldn't defacate for over a week without an enema due to the muscle tension. I easily could've had a seizure and died. At times I'd have multiple panic attacks in a row. I told my current doctor about this ordeal and he almost fell out of his chair; he said that to him, three MONTHS is bordering on rapid. I don't know if I'd ever have the gall to consent to "hospitalization" again. I went into the hospital once after that because I had nowhere to live and was suicidal, and all they did for me was take me off of the Nardil because I "couldn't be trusted" with it. I had to sign myself out AMA while in severe depression with agoraphobia and get back on the medication. They wanted to keep me for six weeks longer and put me on mood stabilizers despite the fact I've had bipolar disorder ruled out in the past. The only way I was able to get out was by filing a complaint and talking to the head doctor there, who happened to know me. She told me that she couldn't override what they were doing but that since I had never consented to this treatment when I signed in, I had a right to leave at any time. Fun. Abusive.And it's a wonder that this can happen to someone with your significant cognitive abilities and communication skills, non?
> What you say about opioids and finding them unpleasant is actually--despite the widely held belief to the contrary--the norm. Most people given an intravenous injection of morphine find the experience extremely unpleasant and, needless to say, do not care to repeat it. Only those in pain find opioids desirable.But, if and only if they control the pain. For over eighteen months, oxycodone worked beautifully. I cannot grasp what changed that, other than to speculate on a massive up-regulation of my opioid receptors.
> It is worthy of mention that Aristotle held that physical and emotional pain were the same thing.I'm afraid I disagree with that, too. Pain and suffering are quite distinct, IMHO.
> Too bad we're not that "advanced" these days.
Only by the greatest of simplifications can I link the two. Simply my opinion.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 10, 2007, at 14:28:27
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » Larry Hoover, posted by laima on February 7, 2007, at 19:49:01
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> The phenomena is currently fascinating to me- I do wonder how common it is or isn't- if no one believes in it, or knows to look for it, they perhaps don't simply recognize it?I suspect it is more common than most doctors will admit. Their treatments just don't do things like that, ya know? Far easier to blame some neurosis or latent expression of somatiform disorder, or some such.
> It makes logical sense to me, that people could build up tolerance to so-called addictive substances, and enter chronic mini-withdrawal states. But I really of course don't know, and lack any bio/chem training to use in trying to figure it out technically.
As we were on quite different classes of drugs, but with a similar progression, it might be an epi-phenomenon, i.e. one not restricted to any one receptor class. I'm certain that under the influence of an exogenous chemical which disturbs any receptor homeostasis, the body will exert potentially increasing efforts to regain control thereof. So little do we know about the complex interplay and feedback among and within receptor-mediated biochemical complexes, we are very vulnerable to hubris. We think we know so very much.....ha!
> >but what happened to us? How is it that continued use of stable doses met with such dramatic loss of drug effects? This was more than tolerance, methinks.
>
> I would LOVE to know.I would love more to know how to prevent it.
> > > I shudder to think about possible consequences of my antidepressant use.
> >
> > I hear you, but what might the consequence of never having used one be?
>
> Yes, I hear you too- but I originally started them as result of rather mundane adolescent crisis, which might better have been addressed by counseling. Regardless, I worry if they've changed my brain, if my brain is impaired from using them? <snip> Maybe not much point for me to worry about this particular question now though.Pragmatically, not much point. However it is that you got to this point, today, it is without dispute that here you are, today. Gotta look forward, eh?
> Whether you choose to resume your painkillers or not- like you say, a person has to do what they have to do. I do wonder if they might not be newly effective again after the break- but then you face the possibility later of a repeat of what already happened. So complicated, I don't envy your decision.
I appreciate very much the understanding and validation you offer me. I'm scared, truthfully. I just started back at a very painful physiotherapy program, and doing it without those meds is, uhhh, challenging. I am exhausted, and we've only just scratched the surface. One day at a time......
> Warmest wishes,
> Laima
>
>Thanks. And back atcha.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on February 10, 2007, at 19:46:12
In reply to Re: holy mackeral laima! » laima, posted by Larry Hoover on February 10, 2007, at 14:28:27
Lar maybe you can become famous and find a cure for this illness of regulations of all med types. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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