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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by musky on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
here is a very interesting article for all to read and think about. Please take the time to read it.. it is a little lengthy but well worth the read..
Then decide if you truly want to stay off meds and successfully get through the withdrawl part..it can be done
go to:http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/11/ma_565_01.html
musky
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to withdrawl from antidepressants successfully, posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 0:22:15
> here is a very interesting article for all to read and think about. Please take the time to read it.. it is a little lengthy but well worth the read..
> Then decide if you truly want to stay off meds and successfully get through the withdrawl part..
>
> it can be done
>
> go to:http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/11/ma_565_01.htmlMusky,
Where in that article does it provide any information that will aid others in discontinuing psychiatric medications?
The relative contributions of Irving Kirsch to modern psychiatry have been discussed at length on the main Psycho-Babble board, and his thesis challenged there. Placebo rates have been discussed at length there as well. I've written many posts discussing both topics, and you can find them in the archives if you would like.
Musky, you have attempted to begin a thread that challenges the use of psychiatric medications in the treatment of mental illnesses on the Withdrawal board using a subject line that is inconsistent with the content of the post. If you feel the need to continue the thread in this manner, I will ask that it be redirected to the main Psycho-Babble board, where it is more appropriate. People reading this board will be able to follow it there.
Start this thread here, and you will attract discussion, I'm sure:
- Scott
Posted by Jost on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: Challenging modern psychiatry » musky, posted by SLS on October 5, 2006, at 5:35:52
As Scott points out, there's been a lot of debate on the main Psychobabble board not only about placebos vs. ADs, but also Greenberg et al.
Meanwhile, I note that the following sentence from the article is definitely not true:
"While some of this debate breaks down along familiar lines -- psychologists resisting the tendency to reduce all mental suffering to biology versus psychiatrists more comfortable with matter than spirit -- no one disputes that the statistics about antidepressant efficacy are dismal, and that they do little to clarify the question of whether people who get better on antidepressants do so because they are taking Prozac or Zoloft or because they are taking a pill -- any pill."
Cleaerly there are lots of people who dispute that the statistics are dismal etc-- not as good as one would like/wish is not the same as dismal.
This overstatement does nothing to enhance my confidence in the arguments of the article.
I also tend to be concerned that if the person in the case history reported were, in fact, told-- "You did this"-- and had gone off the drug, she would have relapsed sooner or later, perhaps sooner. I may be wrong in my suspicion, but it's my fear that it would have turned out that way.
Jost
Posted by musky on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: Challenging modern psychiatry » musky, posted by SLS on October 5, 2006, at 5:35:52
> > here is a very interesting article for all to read and think about. Please take the time to read it.. it is a little lengthy but well worth the read..
> > Then decide if you truly want to stay off meds and successfully get through the withdrawl part..
> >
> > it can be done
> >
> > go to:http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/11/ma_565_01.html
>
>
>
> Musky,
>
> Where in that article does it provide any information that will aid others in discontinuing psychiatric medications?Scott..
Did I say that??? No I mereley suggested people to read the article and then to DECIDE themselves if they wish to continue with the med or not.. This article and this is one of many , many that state studies of effectiveness of a/d are showing that they are pretty much the same as a placebo.. and that if a person believes they are getting a pill ,then they will psychologically believe they are getting better.. Until such time that they can show at least a better improvment rate than 40% it isnt enough to warrant taking a drug or drugs that we dont know anything about.. and your reports are only showing improvment of symptoms not patients saying that they feel real good or are truly happy.
>
> The relative contributions of Irving Kirsch to modern psychiatry have been discussed at length on the main Psycho-Babble board, and his thesis challenged there. Placebo rates have been discussed at length there as well. I've written many posts discussing both topics, and you can find them in the archives if you would like.No need to search archives for just placebo rates.. im sure you will find enough info in current articles about this topic..
>
> Musky, you have attempted to begin a thread that challenges the use of psychiatric medications in the treatment of mental illnesses on the Withdrawal board using a subject line that is inconsistent with the content of the post. If you feel the need to continue the thread in this manner, I will ask that it be redirected to the main Psycho-Babble board, where it is more appropriate. People reading this board will be able to follow it there.
### No I havent attempted anything.. I Have started a new thread.. and it isnt about challenging the use of psychiatric medications its about CHOICES and this one article is shedding some light on the topic so that people can make a choice after seeing both sides.. This then , if they decide to withdrawl from medication they can do so on this board.. I feel this is just an appendum to the withdrawl board,, after all it is deciding if one wants to withdrawl from the med or not.. and the more background we have on meds, the better informed the patient is , I say.>
> Start this thread here, and you will attract discussion, I'm sure:#Good!!! I hope so... Why are people reluctant to know ALL the sides of the story,,.. just one article and right away its dismissed,,, not fair..
like I say freedom of information.. Im not telling people to quit meds.. Im tellling people to educate themselves then CHOOSE for themselves.. I merely give my opinion on this thread, thats all..Musky
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by musky on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: Challenging modern psychiatry » SLS, posted by Jost on October 5, 2006, at 18:50:34
>Yes Im sure there is alot of debate,, whatever the case,, the point remains the same .. withdrawl only happens when you discontinue a drug... and the article i referred to just simply states some of the information that is out there to help people make an educated decision about there medications ..
How do you know that the sentence from the article is not true? were you at the study?
These are real people with real effects from the drugs just telling thier experiences..
and no I dont think that lady would have relapsed sooner..
Im told the chance of relapse increases if you stay on the drug.. so again another opinion from a trained professional , I might add.
I guess we can debate forever... bottom line.. the PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING WHEN IT COMES TO HOW A PERSON FEELS ON A MED.. AND IF THEY TRULY ARE HAPPY AND WELL.
No doctor, family member, counsellor, etc, etc, can honestly say how a person feels inside. questionares that patients take are a guideline , not the "actual" feelings that they may have.
Now we need to get back to the task at hand, and that is helping people to cope with withdrawls.. and get through them ,
MuskyAs Scott points out, there's been a lot of debate on the main Psychobabble board not only about placebos vs. ADs, but also Greenberg et al.
>
> Meanwhile, I note that the following sentence from the article is definitely not true:
>
> "While some of this debate breaks down along familiar lines -- psychologists resisting the tendency to reduce all mental suffering to biology versus psychiatrists more comfortable with matter than spirit -- no one disputes that the statistics about antidepressant efficacy are dismal, and that they do little to clarify the question of whether people who get better on antidepressants do so because they are taking Prozac or Zoloft or because they are taking a pill -- any pill."
>
> Cleaerly there are lots of people who dispute that the statistics are dismal etc-- not as good as one would like/wish is not the same as dismal.
>
> This overstatement does nothing to enhance my confidence in the arguments of the article.
>
> I also tend to be concerned that if the person in the case history reported were, in fact, told-- "You did this"-- and had gone off the drug, she would have relapsed sooner or later, perhaps sooner. I may be wrong in my suspicion, but it's my fear that it would have turned out that way.
>
> Jost
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: Challenging modern psychiatry, posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 22:31:54
> Now we need to get back to the task at hand, and that is helping people to cope with withdrawls.. and get through them
We should never have left that task. Starting this thread the way you did was inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board. You can promote your anti-drug agenda on the other boards.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re:, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 5:01:34
> You can promote your anti-drug agenda on the other boards.
I guess I could have put that more nicely. I apologize.
I would suggest to you that the arena for your arguments against the use of psychiatic medications lies on the main Psycho-Babble board. It is too distracting here. Besides being off-topic, it is too volitile and produces too much debate. It is too large a discussion and I think it is distracting. Debates will take up too much board space.
Anyway. The moderators have been invisible on this board. There really hasn't been the need for redirections up until now. However, I will ask for them if these threads can't stay on-topic. This is not an anti-drug board, and lengthy debates regarding the merits of modern psychiatry have no place here.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: Challenging modern psychiatry, posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 22:31:54
Posted by musky on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re:, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 5:01:34
>I dont agree.. I just simply added to the withdrawl agenda.. after all how can one withdrawl if they are still on the drug?? therefore one has to come off the drug to go through withdrawl... so I am just giving more info in aiding that .
musky
> Now we need to get back to the task at hand, and that is helping people to cope with withdrawls.. and get through them
>
> We should never have left that task. Starting this thread the way you did was inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board. You can promote your anti-drug agenda on the other boards.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by musky on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:24
In reply to Re: » SLS, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 5:24:44
> >Im not promoting anything.. im here to help with advice on withdrawl , just as anyone.. and again if one continues to support the use of meds ,as I seem to find here in some posts then perhaps you should be the one that goes to a different part of the board and promotes the use of drugs , because I thought this was about withdrawl, not staying on a med.. or keep trying meds ..
I think we all want to help people and I think you have misinterpreted my intentions for including a article about rx drugs for treating mental illness. I think that we have to promote getting off the drug first since that has to happen before you can withdrawl.. otherwise why withdrawl if you are still taking the drug.. then I think there should be a message board on this topic..
musky
You can promote your anti-drug agenda on the other boards.
>
> I guess I could have put that more nicely. I apologize.
>
> I would suggest to you that the arena for your arguments against the use of psychiatic medications lies on the main Psycho-Babble board. It is too distracting here. Besides being off-topic, it is too volitile and produces too much debate. It is too large a discussion and I think it is distracting. Debates will take up too much board space.
>
> Anyway. The moderators have been invisible on this board. There really hasn't been the need for redirections up until now. However, I will ask for them if these threads can't stay on-topic. This is not an anti-drug board, and lengthy debates regarding the merits of modern psychiatry have no place here.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by musky on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:24
In reply to Re:, posted by musky on October 7, 2006, at 0:26:19
> Hmmm who is in charge of this babble site, Dr. Bob or Scott.. I thought it was Dr. Bob..
Musky>I dont agree.. I just simply added to the withdrawl agenda.. after all how can one withdrawl if they are still on the drug?? therefore one has to come off the drug to go through withdrawl... so I am just giving more info in aiding that .
>
> musky
>
> > Now we need to get back to the task at hand, and that is helping people to cope with withdrawls.. and get through them
> >
> > We should never have left that task. Starting this thread the way you did was inconsistent with the theme of the Withdrawal board. You can promote your anti-drug agenda on the other boards.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
Posted by SLS on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:24
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by musky on October 7, 2006, at 0:35:23
> > Hmmm who is in charge of this babble site, Dr. Bob or Scott.. I thought it was Dr. Bob..
Hmm. Glass houses...
As I indicated, I would simply ask the moderators that threads that drift off-topic be redirected. It is no big deal. Posts that attempt to challenge the use of psychiatric medications in mental illness in the manner you did here qualify in my opinion. So, since my opinion is not the one that ultimately decides these things, I'll let someone else decide.
- Scott
Posted by joslynn on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:45
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected » musky, posted by SLS on October 7, 2006, at 2:51:49
Musky, I think the objection is that the subject line made it sound like it was a how-to-withdraw article, instead of an article about the placebo effect.
By the way, for those of us who have been severely depressed, I wouldn't take the placebo results to mean ADs don't work, because the article says that severely depressed people aren't necessarily studied. I was one of those people who did come into treatment "via the ER," so this part of the article makes me not take any of the placebo results too seriously:
"You also might not make any progress if you waited around for severely depressed people to test drugs on. 'The problem with antidepressant studies,' according to Klein, 'is that anything that can be confused with ordinary unhappiness gets in' -- which means that subjects in clinical trials are insufficiently depressed, too close to normal to show dramatic improvement. Price, who has conducted clinical trials of antidepressants for 25 years, points out that recruitment techniques like the one that attracted Janis Schonfeld to UCLA can lead to a skewed sample. 'If you go out and advertise in the newspaper for depressed people,' says Price, 'you are going to get less ill people than if you are taking people who are brought in via the emergency room.'"
(end quote)
When I was depressed, I didn't even read the newspaper. I was too tired from not sleeping, too faint from not eating, and too busy trying just to survive and not kill myself. It's hard to read the newspaper when you are always a.)crying or b.)fighting like crazy not to jump out the window.
I would like to be off meds one day and applaud people who can go off them. I also applaud people who go off them, realize they need them, and go back on them. With three severe depressions in my background, it's a decision I need to make carefully. Right now, I feel the risk is too great to take.
I think the only reason I would go off meds was if I decided to get pregant. Then there is another life to consider.
If you were just put on meds for a little stress or sleep problems or whatever (I don't know your background) then you may not need them and that is great, then you shouldn't be on them.
But some people here were severely depressed, so it's a more difficult decision for us.
Posted by jeninco on October 22, 2006, at 16:53:45
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by joslynn on October 20, 2006, at 15:49:30
There are ADs that are considered safe enough for pregnant and breastfeeding mothers. I think zoloft is the drug of choice. Yes, being med-free is the optional choice, but if you are struggling with depression during a pregnancy and are unable to take care of yourself sufficently, med-free is NOT the best answer for you and your baby. Same as post-partum. Tons of women suffer from post-partum depression after the baby comes along and do nothing about it for the good of the baby. (I was one of those) Luckily for me things didn't escalate to something horrible, but I shouldn't have waited so long to get help. I spent a lot of time being unhappy and not being the best mother.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 22, 2006, at 16:57:12
In reply to Re: » SLS, posted by SLS on October 6, 2006, at 5:24:44
Posted by madeline on October 22, 2006, at 17:28:02
In reply to Re: Challenging modern psychiatry, posted by musky on October 5, 2006, at 22:19:35
>>>Until such time that they can show at least a better improvment rate than 40% it isnt enough to warrant taking a drug or drugs that we dont know anything about.. and your reports are only showing improvment of symptoms not patients saying that they feel real good or are truly happy.<<<<
Did you know that most high blood pressure meds do not show an improvement rate of 40%. In fact, it's closer to 12% and that's considered "good" by the medical profession.
Cancer drugs? try around 1% improvement rate.
Would you EVER tell someone not to take a blood pressure medication, or chemotherapy?
You see the key here is RATE. Improvement over the course of patient years (months, weeks whatever) as measured by the studies. Which is often confused with absolute improvement or prevalence of "happy" that is independent of time.
Most of the ADs have been documented by independent studies again and again as efficacious as measured by prevalence.
But you are right, it is up to the patient.
m
Posted by willyee on October 22, 2006, at 18:53:05
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected » musky, posted by SLS on October 7, 2006, at 2:51:49
> > > Hmmm who is in charge of this babble site, Dr. Bob or Scott.. I thought it was Dr. Bob..
>
> Hmm. Glass houses...
>
> As I indicated, I would simply ask the moderators that threads that drift off-topic be redirected. It is no big deal. Posts that attempt to challenge the use of psychiatric medications in mental illness in the manner you did here qualify in my opinion. So, since my opinion is not the one that ultimately decides these things, I'll let someone else decide.
>
>
>
>
> - Scott
>Nope youre right on the money,the title of the article indicates the topic of the post,or normaly would be expected to.
muskys topic is just that,and while he seems like were rejecting his anit drug claim,what he is not seeing is that we are rejecting how it is being presented,in a "this is law" about way.
Im always open to listen to how these drugs might have had a negative impact,i dont know,but i am aganist strong pros and cons on either side,mainly because we dont know,and just as fast as one person can post a url about the negative aspect,another can about the postive,like i have said,you can find almost anything on the internet,articles no longer do much for me as ive seen so much contradiction.
I think its funny when someone stumbles onto a article thats been around for ages and spins as if they just found a hidden pieace of gold when most have seen it already.
We dont have the answers we want,we just simply dont have them.
Posted by linkadge on October 22, 2006, at 19:14:18
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by willyee on October 22, 2006, at 18:53:05
I agree with you musky. I think it is always necessary to call into question the safety and efficacy of these medications.
The brain is not something you want to unnessicarily mess up.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2006, at 20:15:11
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by linkadge on October 22, 2006, at 19:14:18
As I've stated before benzos are the only meds I trust. Ad's have done nothing for me except confuse me, maked me feel guilty that they don't work. And yes I have stayed on them for over 4-6 weeks. That was before I joined babble. I think I'm getting smarter now. Looking more into why my thyroid started the problems and now theraphy to help. Not saying some don't need meds. But there are no magic pills. It was here I had a thread entitiled that and you all told me that. Love Phillipa. I'm seriously happy for those ad's help. I'm just not one of them.
Posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2006, at 20:27:06
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2006, at 20:15:11
Example. My Daughter is going through a divorce final this week. Thought she was depressed. So she saw a pdoc who gladly gave her zoloft. Walking out the door she said you know I think I'm paranoid. Out came the pen and a script for seroquel was written. Her reason for thinking she was paranoid was that at work sometimes the girls went behing closed doors to talk and she thought it was about her. One month later she goes back for a med check-up. She said you know there is a reason sometimes they go behind closed doors they fired a girl and didn't want anyone to here. Immediately the pdoc took her off seroquel and cut the zoloft in half. I will probably see this guy too. He's written a book. I think his name is Sagar Sethi. I'm going to google it and see if he has a book on the net. Love Phillipa I learned a lesson from my Daughter and that was to check out the physical things first, go to theraphy and then if necessary a pdoc and meds.Love Phillipa
Posted by joslynn on October 23, 2006, at 15:49:18
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by Phillipa on October 22, 2006, at 20:27:06
To me, that's not depression. Feeling bad during a divorce is normal! And let's face it, at work some people do talk about others behind closed doors. It's called management.
By the way, the first time I went thru a severe episode of depression, I refused to take meds. I was completely against them. I was 25, otherwise healthy, and wanted to tough it out. It did get better on its own BUT I had recently lost one of my two part-time jobs (nothing to do with the depression) so I only had a 20-hr work week or less. I took a lot of time off and couldn't have managed a 40-hr job during that time. I guess a moderate depression started around May, then it was severe from around July-Sept (barely eating or sleeping, suicidal, sometimes unable to get out of bed, also anxiety mixed in) then I felt a gradual lifting around October-November, still depressed, and finally felt normal again by December-January. In March, I got a full-time job, which I was able to maintain.
So all-in-all, I lost many months to the depression. I lived off savings, limped through with the part-time job (which I could barely do and often left in tears) and gradually, the depression did lift. I thought, well, that probably won't ever come back again.
HA HA HA HA HA!
It didn't come back for several years, but then it did, WHAM, worse than the first episode. It was only fear of causing grief in others that kept me from suicide, but I did end up in the ER a complete wreck.
I knew that this time, I had a full-time job, more expenses and responsibilities than when I was 25, and I just couldn't be barely functioning for half a year again. So, I decided to try meds. It was a hard, hard decision, but honestly, I knew it couldn't get worse.
Before that though, I used to say "I could never take meds like those other people."
Then I became one of "those other people." I sometimes think that God likes to make us become one of the people we once judged.
It's a bitter pill, no pun intended. And even on meds, I had an episode of depression, but it was nothing like the other two.
So I'm staying on the meds for now, but I can see both sides.
Posted by corafree on October 24, 2006, at 14:40:57
In reply to Re:withdrawl comments redirected, posted by joslynn on October 23, 2006, at 15:49:18
Hi. I 'dunno' if this is the withdrawl (withdrawal) thread I was following, but I lost my way. Maybe there R2. ;)
stillcrazythankgoodness, cf
This is the end of the thread.
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