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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Hermit on June 19, 2006, at 17:30:19
In reply to Re: Opiates » Hermit, posted by Declan on June 19, 2006, at 16:53:02
Ok, now I get what you were referring to. :o)
> The awful stuff probably differs from drug to drug. With methadone it would be some toxicity, reduction of sex drive, sweating, low grade depression, and difficulty giving up(!). With benzos it's a temperature thing again, sex drive reduction, a generally destabilising effect. Alcohol (in middle age) can lead to sloppy conversations. I just mean the drug effects that are additional to the therapeutic effect.
Yup, all nasty stuff. Alcohol w/d is the only one that can kill you, though. Interesting that it's legal, eh? :-P
> I have mixed feelings about drugs. Like the school counseller on Southpark I think drugs are bad. OTOH people have very real problems and very real suffering.
I know what you mean. I've gone from being really PRO drug in my younger years (who isn't?) to being completely ANTI drug once I got clean. As I got older and tried to live without antidepressants, I finally accepted that, until I found something better, I was better off taking them. The key, I think, is to make sure there's no other way to deal with the problem.
> The modern world of media etc is not helping us cope with normal human unhappiness (which is bad enough), and some people are sick. I hope these opinions of mine make some kind of sense.
You make perfect sense to me. :-)
Ideally, we'd all have perfect brain chemisty and wonderful childhoods and not have to deal with depression, anxiety disorders, compulsions, etc. That's just not the case. While I don't consider myself "pro-drug" at all, I do believe that those who find some relief from debilitating conditions by using certain chemicals should be allowed to.
Hermit
Posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 19:51:26
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by Hermit on June 19, 2006, at 17:30:19
I must mention, I know all about positive antidepressant effect of opiates! Where in my posts does it say I did not feel "Good" on them? All I meant was that, just like all addictive cns depressant drugs, you are chasing something you will never catch. I felt great for awhile, then it got beyond depression, even though i really never upped my dosage. SSRI meds do not work this way! You can lie to yourselves or your doctors all you want, but you know the truth! I know all about the tricks opiates and other addictive drugs can play on you! SSRI med might be dull, but for most, they even people out, not make them "HIGH"! Been down those roads before!
Posted by Declan on June 19, 2006, at 19:57:06
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 19:51:26
I've never taken SSRIs but one thing you can say about them is that people get off them in a way that they do not usually get off methadone.
I think my current dose of that is (around) 50 micrograms.
Declan
Posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
In reply to Re: Opiates » flmm, posted by Declan on June 19, 2006, at 19:57:06
Just because they are hard to get off of does not mean they are not effective, constructive drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and need to be handled with more care then most people think. But for most people, they give them their lives back!
Posted by Phillipa on June 19, 2006, at 21:06:46
In reply to Re: Opiates » flmm, posted by Declan on June 19, 2006, at 19:57:06
SSRI's don't work for me but the funny thing was when I broke my elbow they gave me percocet and the night my husband said I was laughing haven't done that in a long while. Must have been the percocet. Love Phillipa Think I become an addict.
Posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
> SSRI med are very powerfull, and need to be handled with more care then most people think. But for most people, they give them their lives back!
Most people?? Where's your evidence to support this? Or are you just going by the propaganda that the pharmaceutical companies are so fond of spouting?
I can't speak for others, but when I took Paxil, it didn't "give me my life back." It was ineffective for my depressive symptoms at lower doses and caused me to cycle between hypomania and severe depression at 60 mg/day. That led to me being diagnosed with bipolar disorder and being prescribed lithium (among other awful meds), which left me with a tremor that still hasn't gone away after having been off the med for a year. The only medication that ever did any good for me was Nardil -- but only the Australian Nardil (when they were still putting silica gel inside the bottles), and only when I prepared it a certain way.
The fact of the matter is that most of these so-called "soft" forms of bipolar disorder never existed before the SSRIs were introduced. And unlike the SSRIs, the TCAs and the MAOIs (and I mean the *real* Nardil and the *real* Parnate, before their respective formulations were changed) were never shown to have a stronger association with suicidal ideation than placebo.
So come on, if you're willing to say that SSRIs give most people their lives back, show me the evidence!
Or how about this: if anybody out there reading this has been "given their life back" (or even benefited in a significant way) from taking an SSRI, why don't you tell us about it? Likewise, let's also hear from those whose lives have been made worse -- or not any better -- from taking SSRIs. Such a survey obviously wouldn't be scientific, but unless you're able to supply us with some scientific evidence to support your claim, the responses posted here would be the best that we have to go by, as far as this thread is concerned.
Tomatheus
Posted by Squiggles on June 19, 2006, at 21:16:20
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by Phillipa on June 19, 2006, at 21:06:46
Frankly, i don't have the adequate
knowledge in pharmacology to judge
whether opiates would not indeed be
better drugs for depression. They
certainly affect dopamine. That they
are quickly addicting with a very fast
tolerance leap, is something that should
be compared. Maybe, a therapeutic dose
can remain stable for many yrs. before
increasing it.I wrote in another message that seems to
have disappeared, that opiates were used
throughout history for depression, and
lithium too, in the form of lithium bromide
salts were used way before Cade's time.The truth must be out there somewhere.
Squiggles
Posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 0:58:10
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
Are opiates destructive? It's not clear to me that they are especially so. The temper of the times may require some such opinion. I knew what I was doing, didn't lie to myself (not about opiates)....I was acting illegally, so I assumed the guilt of that, meaning I guess that I didn't feel any. Why should I care? What are the humane ways of dealing with depersonalisation? I'd given up on me and the world, and felt like I was under water half the time. Why do opiates in particular generate such strong opinion? Because they work? Because they don't? Feels like subconcious processes to me.
Declan
Posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 2:53:11
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 0:58:10
Adopting the mandarin style as a cover for ex post facto rationalisation and this forum as an opportunity for creative writing....what do I know? I wouldn't wish addiction on anyone. (Every statement I make is almost false.) When my mother had agitated depression I thought of the kindly country doctor on his horse and carriage, with his dose of laudanum, sitting with her, and holding her hand, telling her that he would stay with her till she slept, and contrasted it to the pathetic treatment she received. Some people are between a rock and a hard place.
Declan
Posted by fuchsia on June 20, 2006, at 5:57:55
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
> Or how about this: if anybody out there reading this has been "given their life back" (or even benefited in a significant way) from taking an SSRI, why don't you tell us about it? Likewise, let's also hear from those whose lives have been made worse -- or not any better -- from taking SSRIs. Such a survey obviously wouldn't be scientific, but unless you're able to supply us with some scientific evidence to support your claim, the responses posted here would be the best that we have to go by, as far as this thread is concerned.
>
> TomatheusSSRIs gave me bipolar II (I think, anyway).
But like a lot of people on this board I am struggling to find an effective treatment. I doubt the people here are representative of the general populace.
fuchsia
Posted by Hermit on June 20, 2006, at 10:02:21
In reply to Re: SSRIs » Tomatheus, posted by fuchsia on June 20, 2006, at 5:57:55
>> SSRIs gave me bipolar II (I think, anyway).
Many years ago, Prozac did the same thing to me. My moods were all over the place! Since then, I've been on every antidepressant known, the last being Lexapro which worked the best.
Hermit
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:00:16
In reply to Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 2:53:11
my dearest declan.
i don't think you're a narcissist for the simple reason that even a 'depressed and depleted' (btw, i loved that!) one would NEVER post on any pych or psych meds forum. they are FAR too sure - even when 'depressed and depleted ' - that they're always right, it's everyone else who is an idiot and/ or wrong. they would NEVER ask for help or other's opinions, much less entertain feedback. they'd not EVER show the humility that you have in your above post:
< Adopting the mandarin style as a cover for ex post facto rationalisation and this forum as an opportunity for creative writing....what do I know? >
(snip)
< (Every statement I make is almost false.) >
i emailed another of your humorous comments to my therapist yesterday. you'd given me the best laugh i'd had in years. i can't thank you for that enough.
now, please don't let this 'turn you into' a narcissist. of course, i know that's not even possible.
my enduring regards,
pulse
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:44:23
In reply to Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 2:53:11
p.s. - my dad - age 86 - IS both a depressed and depleted AND a cerebral and asexual narcissist. he just keeps getting moreso.
you still couldn't get him in here, even by putting a luger to his head.
pulse.
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:48:40
In reply to Re: Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:44:23
and ALL,
sorry for 3 extra copies of my last post. sheesh...
~ pulse
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 14:26:18
In reply to Server Probs Again or Time of Day? » pulse, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:48:40
My computer is running slow on babble. Love Phillipa
Posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 14:33:34
In reply to Re: Narcissist Repents » Declan, posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 13:00:16
Thankyou thankyou thankyou, Pulse, you're too kind. I have actually read the Narcissist section of the DSMIV....I assume it's the first thing everyone looks for, to see if there's anyone they know.....and, uhhm I *think* psychoanalysis says we all were, or something....Thankyou again, you never know here who you are speaking to.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:13:25
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 19:51:26
Nobody here is suggesting that the euphoric feeling that opiates give at first is the antidepressant response.
Some people actually feel euphoric on an antidepressant for the first little while, yet they can still continue to gain a theraputic effect once the euphoria has worn off.
Take Nardil for instance. Many people notice that during the first month's usage, they feel euphoric. Though, even after this wares off many people continue to gain a theraputic effect against depression.
Sure, there are going to be those who will continue to chase after that euphoric feeling (not mentioning any names).
Some doctors are actually uncomfortable with the fact that MAOI's can often produce this initial effect, and won't prescribe them based on this.
What we are trying to do here, is to find out if a person can take an opiate (beyond the timeframe to end euphoria) and still gain a theraputic effect at a constant dose.
It seems that a growing number of patients claim this is the case. Are these patients junkies? If so, why would they remain satisfied at a fixed dose ?
Sure the opiate receptors will adjust to the increased opiate agonism and downregulate, but so too will serotonin receptors in the presence of SSRI's.
Who was it who posted a study not too long ago that said that morphine was equal to imipramine for treating melancholic depression at fixed doses, and relapse occured upon withdrawl of either agent.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:18:24
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
>Just because they are hard to get off of does >not mean they are not effective, constructive >drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly >destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and >need to be handled with more care then most >people think. But for most people, they give >them their lives back!
For a little while I suppose. I have yet to meet "anybody" who will contend that their fixed dose of SSRI antidepressant is as effective as it was when it first worked. I have probably asked that question to >=50 people I have met over the years.
The conscensious I repeatedly get from friends and family is that, sure it worked at first, but now I don't notice much at all. I basically just feel like a zombie.
The number of people who have associated the word SSRI with zombie is quite large.
Many polls rate effexor and paxil as harder to get off than prescription opiates used for pain.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:19:29
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
People don't get better on SSRI's, they get better in spite of SSRI's.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:30:46
In reply to Re: SSRIs » Tomatheus, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:19:29
There have actually been some theories as to some of the possible targets for opiates in mood disorders.
Opiates may kill pain in one area of the brain, create euporia in another, and perhaps regulate certain substances in the emotional regulating parts of the brain.
You've got the TCA's which have effects on opiates in certain limbic regions. Thats why they can be used in certain pain syndromes. Perhaps more selective opiate targets would provide an antidepressant effect without activating the pleasure centres of the brain directly.
With substance P inhibitors (NK-1?) antagonists, I suppose researchers are trying to tease appart some of these effects. Perhaps limbic regulation of substance P is a target. Perhaps interaction with other neuropeptides (ie neuropeptidy Y which has marked antidepressant effect) could be responsible.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:31:19
In reply to Re: SSRIs » Tomatheus, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:19:29
There have actually been some theories as to some of the possible targets for opiates in mood disorders.
Opiates may kill pain in one area of the brain, create euporia in another, and perhaps regulate certain substances in the emotional regulating parts of the brain.
You've got the TCA's which have effects on opiates in certain limbic regions. Thats why they can be used in certain pain syndromes. Perhaps more selective opiate targets would provide an antidepressant effect without activating the pleasure centres of the brain directly.
With substance P inhibitors (NK-1?) antagonists, I suppose researchers are trying to tease appart some of these effects. Perhaps limbic regulation of substance P is a target. Perhaps interaction with other neuropeptides (ie neuropeptidy Y which has marked antidepressant effect) could be responsible.
Linkadge
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 17:48:14
In reply to Re: Narcissist Repents » pulse, posted by Declan on June 20, 2006, at 14:33:34
Declan, you're most welcome.
< you never know here who you are speaking to >
yep, i've surely found that one out. i just ignore them, once i'm onto them. btw, that CAN be learned, then fairly quickly and easily done.
they always let slip or otherwise give their true agenda/s away. it can even be in the guise of kindness, when it's really ALL about control.
we're only narcissicts when what we're putting forth about ourselves is a self-aggrandizing exaggeration, if not an outright lie.
if what we say about ourselves is, instead, true, then we're just comfortable (enough) in or own skin, even if slightly neurotic!, with a decent amount of self-esteem and healthy self-interest - in contrast to the npd's extreme selfishness and complete self-absorbtion.
pulse
Posted by pulse on June 20, 2006, at 17:57:23
In reply to Re: Server Probs Again or Time of Day? » pulse, posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2006, at 14:26:18
i read dr. bob said he better pay his server bill. ha!
so, you think it's just our own computers and only on babble? seems to me it happens last few days at my time noon and 5-6 pm - 'lunch' and 'dinner.' so, maybe alot of folks on here then. (?)
i'm in ohio. did i read that you're now in north carolina, or am i thinking of someone else? if so, i believe we're in the same time- zone.
best,
pulse
Posted by Donna Louise on June 20, 2006, at 18:18:59
In reply to Re: Opiates » flmm, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:13:25
> Nobody here is suggesting that the euphoric feeling that opiates give at first is the antidepressant response.
>
> Some people actually feel euphoric on an antidepressant for the first little while, yet they can still continue to gain a theraputic effect once the euphoria has worn off.
>
> Take Nardil for instance. Many people notice that during the first month's usage, they feel euphoric. Though, even after this wares off many people continue to gain a theraputic effect against depression.
>
> Sure, there are going to be those who will continue to chase after that euphoric feeling (not mentioning any names).
>
> Some doctors are actually uncomfortable with the fact that MAOI's can often produce this initial effect, and won't prescribe them based on this.
>
> What we are trying to do here, is to find out if a person can take an opiate (beyond the timeframe to end euphoria) and still gain a theraputic effect at a constant dose.
>
> It seems that a growing number of patients claim this is the case. Are these patients junkies? If so, why would they remain satisfied at a fixed dose ?
>
> Sure the opiate receptors will adjust to the increased opiate agonism and downregulate, but so too will serotonin receptors in the presence of SSRI's.
>
> Who was it who posted a study not too long ago that said that morphine was equal to imipramine for treating melancholic depression at fixed doses, and relapse occured upon withdrawl of either agent.
>
>
> LinkadgeYes, you are right about the euphoria being possible with an ssri. The first tiime I took Paxil, I felt like I had taken a valium, which feels really good to me. The next time, I just felt really good. Both times my husband said I was acting like I was high although I didn't feel high the second time. These good feelings wore off of course. And I don't think it was med induced hypomania, it has not happened on any other drug.
donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 20, 2006, at 18:21:11
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:18:24
> >Just because they are hard to get off of does >not mean they are not effective, constructive >drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly >destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and >need to be handled with more care then most >people think. But for most people, they give >them their lives back!
>
> For a little while I suppose. I have yet to meet "anybody" who will contend that their fixed dose of SSRI antidepressant is as effective as it was when it first worked. I have probably asked that question to >=50 people I have met over the years.
>
> The conscensious I repeatedly get from friends and family is that, sure it worked at first, but now I don't notice much at all. I basically just feel like a zombie.
>
> The number of people who have associated the word SSRI with zombie is quite large.
>
> Many polls rate effexor and paxil as harder to get off than prescription opiates used for pain.
>
>
>
> Linkadge
Everything you have said here has been the absolute truth of my experience with sri's.donna
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