![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 154 to 178 of 178. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tomatheus on June 22, 2006, at 22:50:18
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 20:51:55
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 22:53:12
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 21:55:41
"Hey Paul, just curious, what are MSIR tabs? Do you live in outside the states? I know valium, nembutal and alcohol quite well, but have not heard of this other thing. Maybe I know it by a different name. From my wild and crazy past. Not to say I am not crazy in the present, just not wild :-)))
donna"
MSIR=Morphine Sulphate immediate release. I live downunder,and believe that you US folk have it in 15@30mg doses. Wild and crazy past? was nembutal effective? have you been treated with Quaalude? stimulants?
Cheers
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:36:27
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 22:53:12
ok, this is the third post. I think I know what happened. I had the no message thing on somehow.
I self-dedicated, I mean medicated with all the drugs you mentioned and more. I do not know why I am not dead from an OD or car wreck. You could say they were effective in that otherwise I would have spent my life locked in the bathroom but I am sure they really screwed up my already precariously wired brain systems all the more. I was really smart once.
I did what we called blue morphine. All this was a long time ago, when I was a teenager and in my 20's. I am now 52. Somehow I am 52..donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:41:39
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by Emme on June 22, 2006, at 22:05:07
> > The other parts are never talked about or just brushed by here.
>
> 1) That's because this is a meds board. There is a psychology board.
>
> 2) Please do not assume that because they are not discussed on this board that people are not simultaneously pursuing other forms of therapy.
>
> > I'm sure you probably will not want to face some of those issues, probably just easier to take drugs.................
>
> 1) Please don't make assumptions about what other people will or will not face.
>
> 2) I may get slammed for this, but I personally believe that there are some people (not all) who do not have issues and for whom their illness is purely biological. Or for whom life issues are the result of their illness.
Thanks so much Emme for replying so civily to this remark regarding not wanting to face issues.
I don't know if I would have checked myself. I personally can't even count the years I have spent working hard on the areas that don't work due to "issues". I could not have done a second of it without antidepressants. When I first started therapy a million years ago we couldn't do any work because I could do nothing but sit there and cry.donna
Posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:09:03
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Paulbwell, posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 5:36:27
It was nice to read that. Before the dangerous stuff started I asked my brother how long he thought I'd last and he astonished me by saying that he had bad news and that I'd make it to 27 (he knew how to cheer me up). And then things got much much worse, and then better, and here I am alive at 53. Locked in the bathroom, hey? Know all about it (I think).
Declan
Posted by pulse on June 23, 2006, at 14:15:26
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
1) not a thing wrong with complaining. people would do better to do more of it. this goes hand in hand with the very cruelest cut of all: that pull-self-up-by-bootstraps 'philosphy' which emerges from alcoholic or other dysfunctional families of origin. decades ago, claudia black coined: don' TALK, don't TRUST, don't FEEL. fyi: DON'T can be shouted or beaten in, or it can be subtly & confusingly instilled in any child, as it was in my case.
2) i admit to being an over-analyzer, even though i ALWAYS score in the 98-99 percentile of all right-brain tests. analyzing is decidedly left-brained. i use an intuitive method, combined with both much book knowledge, and (my naivete replaced, i now believe for my best) with learned-the-hard-way street smarts. i don't stop with looking only at myself, either. so much for the self-absorbtion with which you are battering us.
i help those who are capable of internalizing it, and then capable of doing their own work.
i'm not a big fan of 'facts' & science, because, exclusive of my not having a bent for science, one can clearly see from this board, that science doesn't come close to solving all.
3) there is NO such thing as being over-sensitive. PERIOD. that myth comes from the same 'place' as the above.
re: a following post of yours -
i'm sure you'd be amazed at how many here on the meds board, DO also go to therapy, often once a week, if they can afford. that's still recommended for the best possible results, for those with major depressive disorder, more than any other dx. that can be simple talk therapy, or cbt for the anxiety and ocd that so very often come with this dx.
it was indeed thought, until fairly recently, that folks with bipolar disorder didn't need therapy; that it could, instead, be harmful to them. that trend seems to be changing.
why all this pot-stirring from you? i can see no other real reason for you repetitive, and unable to entertain anything close to some semblance of a belief that people can and do have FAR different outcomes than you and your's, posts. please, dispense with this yanking of peoples' chains.
pulse
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:28:21
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Donna Louise, posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:09:03
> It was nice to read that. Before the dangerous stuff started I asked my brother how long he thought I'd last and he astonished me by saying that he had bad news and that I'd make it to 27 (he knew how to cheer me up). And then things got much much worse, and then better, and here I am alive at 53. Locked in the bathroom, hey? Know all about it (I think).
> Declan
Hey, I bet if we had lived in the same country, we may have bumped into each other, if not in crazy drug land, but maybe the bathroom...donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:35:49
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by pulse on June 23, 2006, at 14:15:26
> 1) not a thing wrong with complaining. people would do better to do more of it. this goes hand in hand with the very cruelest cut of all: that pull-self-up-by-bootstraps 'philosphy' which emerges from alcoholic or other dysfunctional families of origin. decades ago, claudia black coined: don' TALK, don't TRUST, don't FEEL. fyi: DON'T can be shouted or beaten in, or it can be subtly & confusingly instilled in any child, as it was in my case.
>
> 2) i admit to being an over-analyzer, even though i ALWAYS score in the 98-99 percentile of all right-brain tests. analyzing is decidedly left-brained. i use an intuitive method, combined with both much book knowledge, and (my naivete replaced, i now believe for my best) with learned-the-hard-way street smarts. i don't stop with looking only at myself, either. so much for the self-absorbtion with which you are battering us.
>
> i help those who are capable of internalizing it, and then capable of doing their own work.
>
> i'm not a big fan of 'facts' & science, because, exclusive of my not having a bent for science, one can clearly see from this board, that science doesn't come close to solving all.
>
> 3) there is NO such thing as being over-sensitive. PERIOD. that myth comes from the same 'place' as the above.
>
> re: a following post of yours -
>
> i'm sure you'd be amazed at how many here on the meds board, DO also go to therapy, often once a week, if they can afford. that's still recommended for the best possible results, for those with major depressive disorder, more than any other dx. that can be simple talk therapy, or cbt for the anxiety and ocd that so very often come with this dx.
>
> it was indeed thought, until fairly recently, that folks with bipolar disorder didn't need therapy; that it could, instead, be harmful to them. that trend seems to be changing.
>
> why all this pot-stirring from you? i can see no other real reason for you repetitive, and unable to entertain anything close to some semblance of a belief that people can and do have FAR different outcomes than you and your's, posts. please, dispense with this yanking of peoples' chains.
>
> pulse
Thanks pulse, I appreciate your statements. It sounds like I could have bumped into you out there too.. I bet there are alot us with the same experiences. And that have done alot of "family of origin" work. Absolutely necessary for this ACOA, the meds by themselves would definately not be enough. But I have had to have them to do the work. For me, it has been both, therapy and meds, that have me as marginally functional as I am :-)donna
Posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:48:17
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Declan, posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:28:21
I did it. The maths is
14 X 5 X 50...lets say 3,000 hours, maybe a little less.
I ended up talking about Hitler and Stalin all the time.
Declan
Posted by pulse on June 23, 2006, at 14:53:24
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » pulse, posted by Donna Louise on June 23, 2006, at 14:35:49
thanks much, donna.
yes, you, i, and declan most definitely may as well have run in the same circles, both during our wild days and now.
i just read that our ages line up... 1, 2, 3.
i'm the oldest, so you both MUST listen to me at all times. LOL.
pulse
Posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2006, at 2:40:05
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by linkadge on June 20, 2006, at 17:18:24
> >Just because they are hard to get off of does >not mean they are not effective, constructive >drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly >destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and >need to be handled with more care then most >people think. But for most people, they give >them their lives back!
>
> For a little while I suppose. I have yet to meet "anybody" who will contend that their fixed dose of SSRI antidepressant is as effective as it was when it first worked. I have probably asked that question to >=50 people I have met over the years.
>
> The conscensious I repeatedly get from friends and family is that, sure it worked at first, but now I don't notice much at all. I basically just feel like a zombie.
>
> The number of people who have associated the word SSRI with zombie is quite large.
>
> Many polls rate effexor and paxil as harder to get off than prescription opiates used for pain.
>
>
>
> LinkadgeHey Link!
So who's saying that opiates are "destructive?" HA! I'm proof they are no such thing. I've been on hydrocodone FOR DEPRESSION along with Lexapro and Adderall for over 2 years now and it's been the best combination for me. I've said many times before that opiates are no cure - but they CERTAINLY should have their place in treating TRD. I've not had any tolerance nor have I had any need to increase the dose of the hydrocodone. And yes - it's prescribe by my psychiatrist. I was put on it while seeing doctors at the University of Minnesota and am continuing it now - back in IL - going to school for my doctorate in pharmacy!
SSRIs produce unbearbale withdrawl as bad as if not equal to that of hard-core opiate use. I'm not saying that opiates like hydrocodone don't cause withdrawl - because they do - but just because SSRIs aren't "addictive substances" doesn't mean they are innocent of creating havoc in your brain.
No one should be discounting meds like opiates as destructive or ueless treatments for mood disorders. Many people tend to base their generalizations on media hype, bad medical care, uninformed doctors and severe unusual cases instead of FACT. We live in a world of sensationalism. It's because of these factors that meds like opiates and other compounds are shelved - and not given a chance to be tested, etc.
(Link - don't think that this was aimed at you - I just decided to attach my post to your reply - hope you're doing well my friend!)
Jerry
Posted by Paulbwell on June 24, 2006, at 4:10:26
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad., posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2006, at 2:40:05
"SSRIs produce unbearbale withdrawl as bad as if not equal to that of hard-core opiate use. I'm not saying that opiates like hydrocodone don't cause withdrawl - because they do - but just because SSRIs aren't "addictive substances" doesn't mean they are innocent of creating havoc in your brain."
^Yep^
Amoung one of many SSRI's AD's. Celexa pulunged me into sever Depression-HAHA, from, an anti-depressant!!. ANTI-pro-depressant.Cheers
Posted by Donna Louise on June 24, 2006, at 5:06:01
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad., posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2006, at 2:40:05
> > >Just because they are hard to get off of does >not mean they are not effective, constructive >drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly >destructive. SSRI med are very powerfull, and >need to be handled with more care then most >people think. But for most people, they give >them their lives back!
> >
> > For a little while I suppose. I have yet to meet "anybody" who will contend that their fixed dose of SSRI antidepressant is as effective as it was when it first worked. I have probably asked that question to >=50 people I have met over the years.
> >
> > The conscensious I repeatedly get from friends and family is that, sure it worked at first, but now I don't notice much at all. I basically just feel like a zombie.
> >
> > The number of people who have associated the word SSRI with zombie is quite large.
> >
> > Many polls rate effexor and paxil as harder to get off than prescription opiates used for pain.
> >
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Hey Link!
>
> So who's saying that opiates are "destructive?" HA! I'm proof they are no such thing. I've been on hydrocodone FOR DEPRESSION along with Lexapro and Adderall for over 2 years now and it's been the best combination for me. I've said many times before that opiates are no cure - but they CERTAINLY should have their place in treating TRD. I've not had any tolerance nor have I had any need to increase the dose of the hydrocodone. And yes - it's prescribe by my psychiatrist. I was put on it while seeing doctors at the University of Minnesota and am continuing it now - back in IL - going to school for my doctorate in pharmacy!
>
> SSRIs produce unbearbale withdrawl as bad as if not equal to that of hard-core opiate use. I'm not saying that opiates like hydrocodone don't cause withdrawl - because they do - but just because SSRIs aren't "addictive substances" doesn't mean they are innocent of creating havoc in your brain.
>
> No one should be discounting meds like opiates as destructive or ueless treatments for mood disorders. Many people tend to base their generalizations on media hype, bad medical care, uninformed doctors and severe unusual cases instead of FACT. We live in a world of sensationalism. It's because of these factors that meds like opiates and other compounds are shelved - and not given a chance to be tested, etc.
>
> (Link - don't think that this was aimed at you - I just decided to attach my post to your reply - hope you're doing well my friend!)
>
> JerryI have detoxed from alot of different drugs and by far and away the worst (next to caffeine) is a toss up between effexor and paxil.
donna
Posted by Paulbwell on June 24, 2006, at 5:13:50
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad. » jerrympls, posted by Donna Louise on June 24, 2006, at 5:06:01
"I have detoxed from alot of different drugs and by far and away the worst (next to caffeine) is a toss up between effexor and paxil."
According to the WHO list of meds hardest to discontinue, these 2 are at the front, Diazepam is #11, Lorazepam #13-weird ha?
cheers
Posted by Declan on June 24, 2006, at 15:18:54
In reply to Re: buprenorphine and constipation » pseudoname, posted by pulse on June 8, 2006, at 21:54:16
I chanced upon your post of June 8 just now that I hadn't previously read (boyfriend), although it would be nice to think of a bloke here talking about his boyfriend like that (kinda cute). I just assumed you were a bloke for no good reason that I can think of.
Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2006, at 18:31:17
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad., posted by jerrympls on June 24, 2006, at 2:40:05
Actually, in all of this thread I have been defending the use of opiates.
The line with "distructive" in it was not mine, that was an excerpt from a previous post. My response was the lower portion of that thread.
Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on June 24, 2006, at 20:54:08
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad. » jerrympls, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2006, at 18:31:17
> Actually, in all of this thread I have been defending the use of opiates.
NO DOUBT-considering you are scripted one q.i.d-lucky.-you report no constipation right?-Codeine is a killer there.
I read Links post on the folks who have been treated with Oxycodone, Oxymorphone-(good luck, with that one) and the success in their treatment. Psych 'issues' are not always, Dopaine, Noradrenaline, Serotonin, related?
Cheers
Posted by linkadge on June 24, 2006, at 23:29:13
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad. » linkadge, posted by Paulbwell on June 24, 2006, at 20:54:08
Another thing to consider is that there is significant interaction between the monoamines and the opiate system. So you are likely affecting serotonin etc by taking an opiate.
I have been taking codine lately, its not too hard to extract it from OTC preparations.
Doctor wouldn't likely approve, and I am *not* recomending this route for anyone, but doctors don't care much.
If I feel the compulsion to increase the dose, I'll have to throw in the towel. I am just seeing how long a fixed dose will provide relief.
Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on June 25, 2006, at 0:20:13
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad., posted by linkadge on June 24, 2006, at 23:29:13
"If I feel the compulsion to increase the dose, I'll have to throw in the towel. I am just seeing how long a fixed dose will provide relief."
Codeine has an (unlike other Opi's) ceiling dose of 400mgs-taking more is useless, i used to be addicted to it:(.
Thankyou splitable Nurofen Plus!-they don't split anymore-so my addictions have changed.
Give me a Dopamine agonist-which i'v got, MSIR tabs and Alcohol:).
Cheers
Posted by reese7194 on June 25, 2006, at 1:10:38
In reply to Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 13:45:19
thank you. i can't tell you how f*cking sadly i agree. i have watched hope, dreams, love, desire, slowly dissipate like dripping paint over the past fifteen years. all i have to show for is a walking pile of bones who is technically still alive but at the same time very much dead. i use the latter word with much respect and care. this is just simple fact.
thank you again. i hope you have a chance to see this.
> Im about to make a strong comment,and i know it will rattle people,but honestly i just wanna share my view.
>
> I have spent many years reading books,aritcles,websites,newsgroups etc.....
>
> I have stumped a p doc or two,my pharmcist has told me plain out they are not familiar with pharmcology as much as i ask.This was various pharms as well.
>
>
> The only thing i can come back saying after this time is this.......
>
>
> We have little knowledge on the brain and how these meds interact or help,this is not a secret,the drugs flat out tell u there method for working are "believed".
>
> We dont know how different each persons chemistry is,we dont know long term effects,we dont know rebound effects,we know simply very little,and thats just the way it is.
>
>
> I never touched a single drug my in my life,or at least an illicit one,and never had the urge too.Id stay clear of friends when they were lighting a joint,and a sip of beer made me sick.
>
>
> Situational depression brought me to a p doc 10 years ago,where i was introduced to what i believed then was "medication" effexor.
>
>
> Well ten years later im a shell of the person i was,a broken version of memories.
>
> Can i contribute this to the drugs,i cant say for sure of course not,however i do personaly believe i did not arrive here on my own,i am now and i thought of this term the other day as my jaw dropped when my paharmccy was OUT OF STOCK on my drug.
>
>
> I AM NOW a pharmcitcuical junkie,what makes me think im any better than a street junkie,cause i have a prescription?
>
> I cant stop parnate,not cause of my depression,because im pyhsicaly dependant on it,stopping klonopin or a benzo is highly unadvisable,not because of the fear of symptoms retruning,but rather the pyhsical danger of abrupt withdrawal,including seizures.
>
>
> So as i scan this group in search of a new drug to take,am i letting the fact i get it from a doc blind me to what i still am doing,looking for a drug?
>
>
> Is that not the actions of a junkie?
>
>
> What makes me better than a junkie?
>
>
> Also im personaly fed up with this whole dont do nothing without ur p doc,or see ur p doc.
>
>
> Ok lets use logic here,they are seeing patients non stop through the day,then they seee u for if ur lucky the whole 20 minute.
>
>
> IT IS NOT possable in my opinion to address medication that affects one brain in 20 min,it is simply irrational to believe so,especialy when there is not a single scieantific instrument in the office,the doc will attempt to help u off guess work,off of what he or she BLEIEVES is best,not off of a shred,a tiny shred of scieance,ur not tested and ur chemicals evaluted to see what kind of issues u might be having etc,so why are we so stuck on the value in this 20 min appt,because they deal with patients on drugs all day and are familiar with it,this is why we are supposed to value there input?Id much rather value there input on the same way i do a Gp and thats sitting in the room alone waiting for some form of scan or blood work,not because the majority of his patients that week had a complaint similair to mine.
>
>
>
> That is just not medicine,it is just not scieance,its reptition,and im not comfortable with that.
>
>
> I dont have an answer on how to resolve this,or where we go from here,but i know deep down inside ive always known this past decade ive become more and more of a pharmcutical junkie,beliving the key to any form of well being reliead on a drug.
>
>
> Im a certified network adminstrator,and in school and right after i was a walking network machine,knew it all.
>
>
> It did not take long for that knowledge to become old.
>
> If i needed to,id have to revert back to books for information,i simply know what i knew cause i was in training everyday,testing etc.
>
>
> I believe thats how the p dcos are,in school they are tested and learning complex stuff,but they are SIMPLY not using this in every day practice.
>
>
> I know prob everyone here disagrees with me,but im using myself as an example,im there,and my trust in this whole industry is gone,id never advise a friend to seek this form of help in depression,as far as drugs.
>
>
> I also want to get myself into the habbit of never calling them medications again,until a doc uses some form of scieance,or anything at all on there basis for giving me one of these drugs,then ill will refuse to believe its a medication and not a drug,and will not try to make myself feel better about taking them by doing such.
>
>
> My brother drinks a few beers every night,and by this countrys standard im the one doing right,hes the one being reckless.........yet he lives a much much much fuller life than i do,and hes never ended up in ER cause he was out of beer,so whos fooling who here?
>
>
>
>
Posted by Squiggles on June 25, 2006, at 5:08:09
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad. » linkadge, posted by Paulbwell on June 24, 2006, at 20:54:08
Now that it's summer, physical activity
and work has gone into frenzy mode - all
over the city too it seems. We have a long
oppressive winter here where a lot of people avoid
going out for 6 months, unless they are
winter sports enthusiasts.So, i found myself doing all sorts of things
i could not over the winter and ended up
overheating, dehydrating, eating less,
sleeping less, etc. As a result I could
feel the lithium becoming toxic yesterday. I managed to bring it down again by drinking a lot
of salted water, and eating some avocado and
chips, as well as drinking a glass of Muslix (whatever it's called). It is fiber and it brings the lithium level down, as does
coffee and carbonated drinks.There was a time not long ago in our community
when hospitals were open in various neighbourhoods; if i went and reported toxic
symptoms, there was a chubby Scottish doctor who
ran the ER dept. and ordered a lithium blood
test right away-- i didn't even have to explain. But things are changing. Now, if I go to the nearby 24-hr clinic, they won't
touch a lithium patient, and at the ER it takes at least 24 hours to get a blood test. It may just
be bad in my particular neighbourhood. But I
don't expect the hospital situation to improve after the closure of so many community hospitals.Anyway, as I have posted on my lithium site,
do take care not to dehydrate or overexercise
in the summer if you are taking lithium.
Lithium toxicity can damage the brain.
Dr. Schou left an excellent booklet to help
lithium takers (among his many works), which
can be found on Amazon.Squiggles
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 26, 2006, at 1:01:26
In reply to Therapy, posted by Declan on June 23, 2006, at 14:48:17
> I did it. The maths is
> 14 X 5 X 50...lets say 3,000 hours, maybe a little less...Sorry I've been a slacker, but I'd now like to redirect follow-ups regarding therapy to Psycho-Babble Psychology. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20060623/msgs/661472.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by trueblue1 on July 3, 2006, at 3:49:39
In reply to Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 13:45:19
I'm 37, have been on Klonopin AND Ativan since age 25 1mg each bid. These meds saved my life. I am not any more of a "junkie" than an insulin dependent diabetic. I'm very sorry you see yourself this way. If you are not abusing your meds and they are beneficial I really don't see your comparison of yourself to a "junkie".
Posted by jerrympls on July 4, 2006, at 1:22:55
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad. » jerrympls, posted by linkadge on June 24, 2006, at 18:31:17
> Actually, in all of this thread I have been defending the use of opiates.
>
> The line with "distructive" in it was not mine, that was an excerpt from a previous post. My response was the lower portion of that thread.
>
> LinkadgeLink-
I know that - that's what I meant to say in my post. I knew you hadn't said they were "destructive." Sorry for the confusion.Jerry
Posted by Chairman_MAO on July 4, 2006, at 12:06:58
In reply to Re: Opiates are NOT bad. » linkadge, posted by jerrympls on July 4, 2006, at 1:22:55
Buprenorphine has other actions apart from those at the mu-opioid receptor that help depression. It is antimanic, antipanic, antidepressant, and anxiolytic. For some individuals, it may have antipsychotic properties as well, I suspect.
Except for use in crisis pain, buprenorphine is IMHO more useful for psychiatric problems than as an analgesic. It is without a doubt easier to discontinue than SSRI medications--forget about MAOIs!
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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