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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Jakeman on June 13, 2006, at 0:42:01
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35, posted by cecilia on June 13, 2006, at 0:25:30
> Well, I'm still experimenting-yesterday I cut off half the patch at bedtime and then put on a whole new patch when I got up. The Emsam folks would have a cow if they knew how many of us are experimenting with cutting patches when their drug insert says not to. (Of course I'm sure the main reason they wrote that was because they definitely don't want people saving money by cutting 40 mg patches in half to get a 2 month supply for the price of one.) All the Emsam reps reading this-we're depressed, not dumb!Emsam definitely makes me irritable, but how do you determine if that's an effect of the drug itself or the lack of sleep it causes? Cecilia
I don't know. Lack of sleep does not cause me irritiblity so much. I feel dumbed down, in slow motion. I suspect the irritabilty effect may relate to increased dopamine. I feel stuff like: Go ahead, get with it, Your're wasting my time. Plus increased libido.
~Jake
Posted by Donna Louise on June 13, 2006, at 12:02:46
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 34 » Donna Louise, posted by Jakeman on June 12, 2006, at 23:34:03
.> Donna,
>
> I saw my dr. today and she mentioned the possibility of adding lamictal. But we decided to hold off until I see my sleep doctor who has me a a low dose of Lyrica...and get his opinion about maybe raising it. She also mentioned that Seroquel might be an option for sleep if it insomnia is a major problem..
depression. I tend to have an agitated depression...some of the side effects are troubling but more of just a nuisance at this point. I'm just so glad to have to some energy. Maybe I do need to get mad at times. My therapist seems to think that I much less respressed. It has not blunted my sex drive or emotions. I'm just riding the wave for now. I'm going with it for now, but I may change for whatever helps me. A work in progress? I appreciate your posts
>
> good luck, Jake
>
>
> > That is my chief complaint to, the hyper, jumpy easily agitated irritability. The thing is, I have this without medicine so I can't blame the patch, I think since it doesn't numb me out like the other drugs do, I still have my emotions. I just don't like this one at all. I have lost track how long I have been on. I think 4 weeks at 6mg and 2 weeks at 9mg. I forget about food restrictions so I haven't followed any diet although I don't eat much of anything on the bad food list anyway. I felt like I was still depressed on 6mg and I feel better on 9. I don't feel as wonderful as I did the first couple of weeks but I always feel wonderful when I first go off a drug and I had just gotten off effexor. Overall though, I love having some energy, and it is helping with both the depression and anxiety, I like it better than other all the others. I also continue to take klonopin and provigil as I think they help too. But sometimes I feel afraid and desperate because I expected to feel 100% and I don't. I see the pdoc Wed. I wonder if she is thinking lamictal like I am.
> >
> > Donna
> >
> >
>
>Damn, I just wrote this long post and lost it somehow. What did I say... oh, awhile back my pdoc suggested a microscopic dose of seroquil at bedtime for anxiety. I said no at the time, I was afraid of a neuroleptic. She thought if I took it at night the anti anxiety effects would last throughout the day. I think I would be a zombie throughout the day but maybe I should try it and I can always stop if I don't like it. I haven't had trouble sleeping but I am an oversleeper (like something from Seinfeld) but I have started taking .25mg klonopin at night since starting the patch and that may be helping, I used to just take the k during the day.
I definately agree that the dopamine is exagerating my irritability even though I have it anyway. I had expected it to help with my non existent libido but it hasn't and that is a huge disappointment.
I really appreciate your posts too, it is such a comfort to have folks in the same boat with me, not feeling alone.donna
Posted by SFY on June 13, 2006, at 17:53:43
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35, posted by cecilia on June 13, 2006, at 0:25:30
> Well, I'm still experimenting-yesterday I cut off half the patch at bedtime and then put on a whole new patch when I got up. The Emsam folks would have a cow if they knew how many of us are experimenting with cutting patches when their drug insert says not to. (Of course I'm sure the main reason they wrote that was because they definitely don't want people saving money by cutting 40 mg patches in half to get a 2 month supply for the price of one.) All the Emsam reps reading this-we're depressed, not dumb!Emsam definitely makes me irritable, but how do you determine if that's an effect of the drug itself or the lack of sleep it causes? Cecilia
According to my pdoc, the drug rep who brought him Emsam specifically told him that it was all right to cut the patches in half.
Posted by Donna Louise on June 13, 2006, at 18:04:13
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35 » cecilia, posted by Jakeman on June 13, 2006, at 0:42:01
> > Well, I'm still experimenting-yesterday I cut off half the patch at bedtime and then put on a whole new patch when I got up. The Emsam folks would have a cow if they knew how many of us are experimenting with cutting patches when their drug insert says not to. (Of course I'm sure the main reason they wrote that was because they definitely don't want people saving money by cutting 40 mg patches in half to get a 2 month supply for the price of one.) All the Emsam reps reading this-we're depressed, not dumb!Emsam definitely makes me irritable, but how do you determine if that's an effect of the drug itself or the lack of sleep it causes? Cecilia
>
> I don't know. Lack of sleep does not cause me irritiblity so much. I feel dumbed down, in slow motion. I suspect the irritabilty effect may relate to increased dopamine. I feel stuff like: Go ahead, get with it, Your're wasting my time. Plus increased libido.
>
> ~Jake
>That is exactly how I feel. I actually walked away from a friend that was asking me stupid questions in the hot sun the other day. I felt terrible about it. But I felt like if I didn't, I would either scream or slap her. Are you like this only on the patch? I am worse on the patch. something must be done. I just read a little about seroquil. I can't do anything that is going to make me sleepy all the time and crave carbs more than I already do. It is looking more like lamictal. But I am going to ask about bupe first.
donna
Posted by Jakeman on June 13, 2006, at 21:53:02
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35 » Jakeman, posted by Donna Louise on June 13, 2006, at 18:04:13
Donna,
I feel the irritablity but it has not gotten me into trouble. I think it has always been there under the surface. I'm sleeping half-way decently but I may investigate seroquel. At this point I'm relieved to be out of depression (most of the time) and trying to use the increased agressive feelings to my benefit. An example is my job. I have moved from a defeated feeling to more like.. this situation is pissing me off and I'm going to do something about it. I recently signed up for a career counseling program. My social life has sucked and I'm getting out a bit more. I'm thinking, if anger comes up is that a bad thing?
(someone called it the dignity emotion) For me anger comes up when I feel violated.I'm trying to meditate more too and trying to stay in touch with my gut feelings. I'm interested in your reports about lamactil or bupe. Good luck.
warm regards, Jake
>
> That is exactly how I feel. I actually walked away from a friend that was asking me stupid questions in the hot sun the other day. I felt terrible about it. But I felt like if I didn't, I would either scream or slap her. Are you like this only on the patch? I am worse on the patch. something must be done. I just read a little about seroquil. I can't do anything that is going to make me sleepy all the time and crave carbs more than I already do. It is looking more like lamictal. But I am going to ask about bupe first.
>
> donna
>
>
Posted by Donna Louise on June 14, 2006, at 6:58:56
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35 » Donna Louise, posted by Jakeman on June 13, 2006, at 21:53:02
My normal anger is good too, it is protective. I like that term, the dignity emotion. That is good. Mine lately is serving no good purpose. It is not the normal reaction to an injustice, ect. It is an overreaction to an irritation that feels so pathological.
I am glad that yours is appropriate and that you can use it to improve your quality of life. That is what it is for and it is cool that you are getting this opportunity. The meditation is a great idea, I use to do that and got good results. Now I fall asleep as soon as I sit in a chair and start to relax. Maybe I should do it standing on my head. No, then I would probably get a stupid migraine.
I can't wait to see the pdoc today. I will let you know the upshot of the visit.donna
> Donna,
>
> I feel the irritablity but it has not gotten me into trouble. I think it has always been there under the surface. I'm sleeping half-way decently but I may investigate seroquel. At this point I'm relieved to be out of depression (most of the time) and trying to use the increased agressive feelings to my benefit. An example is my job. I have moved from a defeated feeling to more like.. this situation is pissing me off and I'm going to do something about it. I recently signed up for a career counseling program. My social life has sucked and I'm getting out a bit more. I'm thinking, if anger comes up is that a bad thing?
> (someone called it the dignity emotion) For me anger comes up when I feel violated.
>
> I'm trying to meditate more too and trying to stay in touch with my gut feelings. I'm interested in your reports about lamactil or bupe. Good luck.
>
> warm regards, Jake
>
>
> >
> > That is exactly how I feel. I actually walked away from a friend that was asking me stupid questions in the hot sun the other day. I felt terrible about it. But I felt like if I didn't, I would either scream or slap her. Are you like this only on the patch? I am worse on the patch. something must be done. I just read a little about seroquil. I can't do anything that is going to make me sleepy all the time and crave carbs more than I already do. It is looking more like lamictal. But I am going to ask about bupe first.
> >
> > donna
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by cecilia on June 14, 2006, at 7:26:28
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35 » Donna Louise, posted by Jakeman on June 13, 2006, at 21:53:02
Well, the taking the patch off at bedtime and taking it off 8 hours before bedtime definitely don't work, once this stuff is in your system it's IN. I HATE Emsam (and every other med I've taken, all the money I've spent for horrible side effects and no benefits.)!!!!!!!!!! I don't understand why pdocs are allowed to stay in business. "Real" meds work. You take a BP med and your blood pressure goes down. You take an antibiotic and your infection goes away. But I've taken every AD there is and never gotten ANYTHING but unpleasant side effects. Cecilia
Posted by ZeitGuest on June 14, 2006, at 12:36:50
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36, posted by cecilia on June 14, 2006, at 7:26:28
My irritability levels are way up above normal. Little frustrations set me off to a degree that's out of proportion to the inciting annoyance. Also, I'm having trouble emotionally rebounding from these reactive states. For example, after hearing some bad news about a criminal investigation of Washington politicos yeserday, I went into a depressive funk that lasted much longer than I think it normally would have.
I've recently increased my dose of Emsam from 6mg to 9mg. I'll let you all know how that works.
P.S. I'm going to start appending my posts with my current "Emsam Stats." In reading other people's posts on this board, I find it hard to keep track of how long posters have been on the patch, at what level, and which augmentation drugs they are taking. I encourage others to post their own current stats at the bottom of each post so that we can match the "symptoms" described to the dose history. Just a suggestion....
*My Emsam Stats*
Day 41: 39 days w/ 6mg patch, 2 days w/ 6mg + 3mg (1/2 patch)
Other Meds: None
Posted by Declan on June 14, 2006, at 14:24:19
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 35 » Jakeman, posted by Donna Louise on June 14, 2006, at 6:58:56
For me anger has been the cure for fear. No idea why, of course.
Posted by Declan on June 14, 2006, at 14:27:30
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36, posted by cecilia on June 14, 2006, at 7:26:28
Is it that real meds treat real diseases and depression is a symptom cluster, caused by God knows what?
Posted by Donna Louise on June 14, 2006, at 20:06:57
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36, posted by ZeitGuest on June 14, 2006, at 12:36:50
> My irritability levels are way up above normal. Little frustrations set me off to a degree that's out of proportion to the inciting annoyance. Also, I'm having trouble emotionally rebounding from these reactive states. For example, after hearing some bad news about a criminal investigation of Washington politicos yeserday, I went into a depressive funk that lasted much longer than I think it normally would have.
>
> I've recently increased my dose of Emsam from 6mg to 9mg. I'll let you all know how that works.
>
> P.S. I'm going to start appending my posts with my current "Emsam Stats." In reading other people's posts on this board, I find it hard to keep track of how long posters have been on the patch, at what level, and which augmentation drugs they are taking. I encourage others to post their own current stats at the bottom of each post so that we can match the "symptoms" described to the dose history. Just a suggestion....
>
> *My Emsam Stats*
> Day 41: 39 days w/ 6mg patch, 2 days w/ 6mg + 3mg (1/2 patch)
> Other Meds: None
>
>This is a great idea.
After pdoc appt today:starting lamictal 25mg day one
klonopin .25mg 2-3x's a day
provigil 200-400 daily, depending. usually 300mg
EMSAM 4 weeks 6mg, 2 1/2 weeks 9mgTo Declan, I wonder how one would treat a symptom cluster as that is a good bet that is what we have hear. There are plenty of symptoms clustering about.
donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 14, 2006, at 20:08:56
In reply to On the Anger Front, posted by Declan on June 14, 2006, at 14:24:19
> For me anger has been the cure for fear. No idea why, of course.
I am afraid of my anger....Sounds like what Jakeman is saying though.
donna
Posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 20:09:20
In reply to On the Anger Front, posted by Declan on June 14, 2006, at 14:24:19
> For me anger has been the cure for fear. No idea why, of course.
Interesting point. I'm trying to unlearn my belief that negative emotions are the enemy.
Posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 20:58:28
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » ZeitGuest, posted by Donna Louise on June 14, 2006, at 20:06:57
> >
> >
>
> This is a great idea.
> After pdoc appt today:
>
> starting lamictal 25mg day one
> klonopin .25mg 2-3x's a day
> provigil 200-400 daily, depending. usually 300mg
> EMSAM 4 weeks 6mg, 2 1/2 weeks 9mg
>
> To Declan, I wonder how one would treat a symptom cluster as that is a good bet that is what we have hear. There are plenty of symptoms clustering about.
>
> donnaDonna, That may be a good combination and I hope it works for you. Has sleep been a problem on Emsam? Maybe not if you fall asleep meditating.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by Declan on June 14, 2006, at 23:20:35
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » Donna Louise, posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 20:58:28
I am afraid of my anger too, but I stop being frightened of someone when I am openly angry with them. It's when I am covertly angry but unable to express it that I get frightened, maybe. (Perfect fear driveth out love, of course, just thought I'd throw that in.)
Declan
Posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 23:54:25
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36, posted by Declan on June 14, 2006, at 23:20:35
> I am afraid of my anger too, but I stop being frightened of someone when I am openly angry with them. It's when I am covertly angry but unable to express it that I get frightened, maybe. (Perfect fear driveth out love, of course, just thought I'd throw that in.)
> DeclanI went to see the Dalai Lama when he was in town a few months ago. He told a story about being very irritated when he was trying to sleep in his hotel room and they was music blaring from a dance club across the street.
~Jake
Posted by pulse on June 15, 2006, at 3:19:18
In reply to Re: On the Anger Front » Declan, posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 20:09:20
> Interesting point. I'm trying to unlearn my belief that negative emotions are the enemy.
boy, do i ever hear you on this one. i'm working on this now, but have known it's been something i've needed to unlearn for far too long. i've made some progress, finally, but, those old tapes still have a way of coming back too often.
you're lucky to be younger, with many more years to work on this. i trust you'll keep at it. it may well be our most important issue.best,
pulse
Posted by pulse on June 15, 2006, at 3:21:23
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » Declan, posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 23:54:25
> I went to see the Dalai Lama when he was in town a few months ago. He told a story about being very irritated when he was trying to sleep in his hotel room and they was music blaring from a dance club across the street.
LOL. this gives me GREAT hope!
Posted by Donna Louise on June 15, 2006, at 7:18:42
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » Donna Louise, posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 20:58:28
> > >
> > >
> >
> > This is a great idea.
> > After pdoc appt today:
> >
> > starting lamictal 25mg day one
> > klonopin .25mg 2-3x's a day
> > provigil 200-400 daily, depending. usually 300mg
> > EMSAM 4 weeks 6mg, 2 1/2 weeks 9mg
> >
> > To Declan, I wonder how one would treat a symptom cluster as that is a good bet that is what we have hear. There are plenty of symptoms clustering about.
> >
> > donna
>
> Donna, That may be a good combination and I hope it works for you. Has sleep been a problem on Emsam? Maybe not if you fall asleep meditating.
>
> warm regards, JakeNo problems sleeping. Only massive amounts of desoxyn back in the day kept me awake all night...However, I am taking .25mg klonopin before bed. Maybe that is why, but I can take naps midday too if I want. It is just that with the EMSAM the nap is a choice. I have always been a good sleeper. So the pdoc thinks I can't be bipolar because of that and all this irritablity and anxiety and obsessivenes and rumination is just my anxiety disorder. Just..hah.
Donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 15, 2006, at 7:27:06
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » Declan, posted by Jakeman on June 14, 2006, at 23:54:25
> > I am afraid of my anger too, but I stop being frightened of someone when I am openly angry with them. It's when I am covertly angry but unable to express it that I get frightened, maybe. (Perfect fear driveth out love, of course, just thought I'd throw that in.)
> > Declan
>
> I went to see the Dalai Lama when he was in town a few months ago. He told a story about being very irritated when he was trying to sleep in his hotel room and they was music blaring from a dance club across the street.
>
> ~JakeWell, that is one to remember. If it is ok for him, it is ok for me...
I know and am comfortable with the so called negative emotions. I have been doing recovery work for over 20 years, and still have a ton of it to do. It is the excessive, pathological, inappropriate emotions that are a problem for me.
The anger, the appropriate, protective anger can still scare me, it is a lifelong thing, but I know it is my friend. And one of the big problems with sri's is that it robbed me of my feelings. I have spent too much time making friends with them and learning to appreciate them to walk around numbed out. There is ecstasy, if only for a moment, on the flip side.Donna
Posted by Jakeman on June 15, 2006, at 19:10:27
In reply to Re: On the Anger Front » Jakeman, posted by pulse on June 15, 2006, at 3:19:18
> > Interesting point. I'm trying to unlearn my belief that negative emotions are the enemy.
>
> boy, do i ever hear you on this one. i'm working on this now, but have known it's been something i've needed to unlearn for far too long. i've made some progress, finally, but, those old tapes still have a way of coming back too often.
>
> you're lucky to be younger, with many more years to work on this. i trust you'll keep at it. it may well be our most important issue.
>
> best,
> pulse
>I'm not so young. Late forties. In fact, some of my present anxiety seems to stem from my thinking that I am running out of time. I need to make peace with that somehow. Or maybe my anxiety (really just a type of energy) is telling me that I need to do something differently.
warm regards, Jake
Posted by Jakeman on June 15, 2006, at 19:16:26
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » Jakeman, posted by Donna Louise on June 15, 2006, at 7:18:42
>>
> No problems sleeping. Only massive amounts of desoxyn back in the day kept me awake all night...However, I am taking .25mg klonopin before bed. Maybe that is why, but I can take naps midday too if I want. It is just that with the EMSAM the nap is a choice. I have always been a good sleeper. So the pdoc thinks I can't be bipolar because of that and all this irritablity and anxiety and obsessivenes and rumination is just my anxiety disorder. Just..hah.
>
> Donna
>I'm glad to hear that there is someone that is able to sleep ok on Emsam! .25 of klonipin is a very small dose.
Jake
Posted by Jakeman on June 15, 2006, at 19:21:11
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » Jakeman, posted by Donna Louise on June 15, 2006, at 7:27:06
> > > I am afraid of my anger too, but I stop being frightened of someone when I am openly angry with them. It's when I am covertly angry but unable to express it that I get frightened, maybe. (Perfect fear driveth out love, of course, just thought I'd throw that in.)
> > > Declan
> >
> > I went to see the Dalai Lama when he was in town a few months ago. He told a story about being very irritated when he was trying to sleep in his hotel room and they was music blaring from a dance club across the street.
> >
> > ~Jake
>
> Well, that is one to remember. If it is ok for him, it is ok for me...
> I know and am comfortable with the so called negative emotions. I have been doing recovery work for over 20 years, and still have a ton of it to do. It is the excessive, pathological, inappropriate emotions that are a problem for me.
> The anger, the appropriate, protective anger can still scare me, it is a lifelong thing, but I know it is my friend. And one of the big problems with sri's is that it robbed me of my feelings. I have spent too much time making friends with them and learning to appreciate them to walk around numbed out. There is ecstasy, if only for a moment, on the flip side.
>
> Donna
>I had the same problem with ssri's. I liked my feelings taken away... for a while. But eventually it seemed that I lost some of my humanness. If that makes sense.
Jake
Posted by cecilia on June 15, 2006, at 21:20:30
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 36 » ZeitGuest, posted by Donna Louise on June 14, 2006, at 20:06:57
Well, I took off my quarter patch yesterday and finally decided, ok this is it, I just can't put another one on. I can deal with the insomnia, I've had insomnia since I was in elementary school. But the eye pain just kept kept worse and worse. This stuff is poison, unlike some meds where side effects improve with time, all the MAO's for me seem to get worse and worse side effects with time-they just build up in your system. The 1st 2 weeks on Emsam there were really no side effects at all, insomnia and anxiety of course, but I always have that, I couldn't really tell if it was significantly worse, then gradually it was obvious it was significantly worse, then the dry eyes started , my eye doctor told me to use artificial tears eye drops and that seemed to help at 1st, but soon it wasn't just dry eyes, it was PAIN, and who knows what would be coming next. So another failure, and there's nothing else left to try. Well, I know what my pdoc will say, what he always does, there's always ECT. Yeah, doc, it's not you that'll lose your memory. I HATE DOCTORS!!!!!!!!!!! Cecilia
Posted by Declan on June 16, 2006, at 0:43:06
In reply to Re: Emsan-Day 37-gave up, posted by cecilia on June 15, 2006, at 21:20:30
Hey Cecilia
ADs haven't worked for you.
Opiates are almost impossible to get.
Tolerance with them is pretty well total, addiction etc, but even so........they will work, IMO.
Better than ADs.
What do you think?
Declan
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