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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 7:12:32
Hi,
I'm not sure if this is due to lithium or if it's due to the depression. And i don't remember when it started, but i've recently become more and more aware of it. I often catch my self thinking violent thoughts, i unconsciously building up scenarios in my head where i'm acting in self defense and hurting, disarm and fighting other people(the 'bad guys'). Is this due to loss of self-confidence or is it medical? Do you recognize this?
I surely not dare to drink alcohol now, last time i did, a week ago, i was banned from two local pubs. And i didn't even get through the door, i threatened the guards that i would beat them. I have no memory of this, a friends girlfriend told me. And i have never beaten another person in my entire life, never been charged or convicted for assault. It's like i'm living out my thoughts while drunk.
This scares me, i'm pretty large(188cm, 100kg), so i could potentially harm someone. Is it the lithium or what?
Thought, ideas and experiences greatly appreciated./Mattias
Posted by HappyGirl on January 23, 2005, at 8:30:51
In reply to Aggressive thoughts, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 7:12:32
Hi:
It sounds to me like you have 'temper/irritable' problem due to 'depression.'The Lithium does NOT cause 'violent' episodes. Rather, it has 'anti-depressant' efficacy NOT to become 'angry/irritable.' Then, you may need 'more' appropriate anti-depressant. Lithium is more likely for 'Bipolar' folks, ... not for depression. You need to talk to your pdoc. openly as to 'irritability'(severe form) before some 'serious' incidents.
H.G.
Posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 8:46:27
In reply to Aggressive thoughts, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 7:12:32
Hi Matt,
>I often catch my self thinking violent thoughts, i unconsciously building up scenarios in my head where i'm acting in self defense and hurting, disarm and fighting other people(the 'bad guys'). Is this due to loss of self-confidence or is it medical? Do you recognize this?
Yes, I clearly recognise this in myself. When I'm depressed I feel angry. Sometimes I feel overwhelming hatred of other people, especially the people who have the things that I don't eg. fitness, health, good job.
In general, lithium reduces aggression but occasionally people may have 'paradoxical' reactions, I suspect that this may be particularly common when lithium is combined with an SSRI. If the feelings get stronger it might (perhaps) be useful to try reducing your Zoloft dose to 25mg.
>I surely not dare to drink alcohol now...
:-)
>This scares me, i'm pretty large(188cm, 100kg), so i could potentially harm someone.
How much is that in feet/inches and stones/pounds?
Ed.
Posted by Ritch on January 23, 2005, at 10:33:52
In reply to Aggressive thoughts, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 7:12:32
> Hi,
>
> I'm not sure if this is due to lithium or if it's due to the depression. And i don't remember when it started, but i've recently become more and more aware of it. I often catch my self thinking violent thoughts, i unconsciously building up scenarios in my head where i'm acting in self defense and hurting, disarm and fighting other people(the 'bad guys'). Is this due to loss of self-confidence or is it medical? Do you recognize this?
> I surely not dare to drink alcohol now, last time i did, a week ago, i was banned from two local pubs. And i didn't even get through the door, i threatened the guards that i would beat them. I have no memory of this, a friends girlfriend told me. And i have never beaten another person in my entire life, never been charged or convicted for assault. It's like i'm living out my thoughts while drunk.
> This scares me, i'm pretty large(188cm, 100kg), so i could potentially harm someone. Is it the lithium or what?
> Thought, ideas and experiences greatly appreciated.
>
> /MattiasAre you still taking Remeron? I couldn't tolerate it because it made me so temperamental. Couldn't control hostile impulses at all. It is possible the lithium might be *interacting* with one of your other meds to help bring that to the surface. You also might simply be starting to *recover* from your depression. Sometimes people may go through an angry phase due to an increase in energy at first.
Posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 10:36:04
In reply to Re: Aggressive thoughts, posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 8:46:27
Hi Ed,
> Yes, I clearly recognise this in myself. When I'm depressed I feel angry. Sometimes I feel overwhelming hatred of other people, especially the people who have the things that I don't eg. fitness, health, good job.Exactly, like 'i'm gonna show them'
> In general, lithium reduces aggression but occasionally people may have 'paradoxical' reactions, I suspect that this may be particularly common when lithium is combined with an SSRI. If the feelings get stronger it might (perhaps) be useful to try reducing your Zoloft dose to 25mg.Yes i could be a good idea, however, i want to feel the full effect of lithium first. Maybe these thoughts disappear when i recover and are more pleased with myself. We'll see..
> How much is that in feet/inches and stones/pounds?
Accordingly to my calculations it would be 6 feet and 2 inches long and weigh 220 pounds.
/Mattias
Posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 10:40:33
In reply to Re: Aggressive thoughts » tensor, posted by Ritch on January 23, 2005, at 10:33:52
Hi Ritch!
> Are you still taking Remeron? I couldn't tolerate it because it made me so temperamental. Couldn't control hostile impulses at all.
Yes i do, 30mg. I have had no problems in the past.
>It is possible the lithium might be *interacting* with one of your other meds to help bring that to the surface.
Yes it might, but..
>You also might simply be starting to *recover* from your depression. Sometimes people may go through an angry phase due to an increase in energy at first.
..i think this sounds like a very plausible idea, this is an excellent point, thank you!
/Mattias
Posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 10:56:08
In reply to Re: Aggressive thoughts » ed_uk, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 10:36:04
Hi Matt!
>Yes i could be a good idea, however, i want to feel the full effect of lithium first.
I wasn't saying that you should reduce your Zoloft now- just that it might possibly be helpful to do so at some point in the future.
>Accordingly to my calculations it would be 6 feet and 2 inches long and weigh 220 pounds.
Big Matt!
I'm 5'10''
Best Regards,
Ed.PS. Did you get my list?
Posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 11:08:00
In reply to Re: Aggressive thoughts, posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 10:56:08
Hi Ed!
> PS. Did you get my list?
Yes, i just replied, what do you think of my 'idea'?
:-)/Mattias
Posted by ed_uk on January 23, 2005, at 12:45:04
In reply to Re: Aggressive thoughts » ed_uk, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 11:08:00
Hi Matt,
>Yes, i just replied, what do you think of my 'idea'? :-)
It's a good one! I'll reply shortly.
Ed.
Posted by Slinky on January 24, 2005, at 7:36:26
In reply to Aggressive thoughts, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 7:12:32
Hi Tensor..
I'm going through the same anger/irritability..maybe because of the 30 mg of paxil I'm taking. I wasn't this angry before the lithium.
My pdoc insists that lithium doesn't cause these feelings.
I don't know what to advise..I hope we both get this sorted.
Like Mitch said about initial depression lift..maybe were going through the storm before the calm.
Posted by Bob on January 24, 2005, at 13:15:30
In reply to Aggressive thoughts, posted by tensor on January 23, 2005, at 7:12:32
> Hi,
>
> I'm not sure if this is due to lithium or if it's due to the depression. And i don't remember when it started, but i've recently become more and more aware of it. I often catch my self thinking violent thoughts, i unconsciously building up scenarios in my head where i'm acting in self defense and hurting, disarm and fighting other people(the 'bad guys'). Is this due to loss of self-confidence or is it medical? Do you recognize this?
> I surely not dare to drink alcohol now, last time i did, a week ago, i was banned from two local pubs. And i didn't even get through the door, i threatened the guards that i would beat them. I have no memory of this, a friends girlfriend told me. And i have never beaten another person in my entire life, never been charged or convicted for assault. It's like i'm living out my thoughts while drunk.
> This scares me, i'm pretty large(188cm, 100kg), so i could potentially harm someone. Is it the lithium or what?
> Thought, ideas and experiences greatly appreciated.
>
> /MattiasI would have to say, with my unfortunate 15 years of experience with these meds, that anything is possible. My most recent med combo was lithium + welbutrin, and I had mega anger problems. I eventually tapered off the Welbutrin, for many reasons, and much to my chagrin, the anger was still there despite the fact that I was on lithium monotherapy for months thereafter. Sure, I guess I could have doubled the dose and bombed myself out until all I was doing was laying there sleeping 18 hours a day (which I've done on other meds), but I chose not too. So maybe you can increase the dose and it will calm it down, but then I would think tolerability would become an issue. It seems to me, the only people who do well on robust doses of lithium are ones who have an underlying tendency to mania - they had an extreme excess of energy to begin with. If your baseline is a lack of energy, lithium alone doesn't seem to be a solution. Again, I can only speak for me - YMMV.
I would like to second the comment someone made above concerning Remeron: that was a very, very activating drug. It fed my obsessions and my anger. There is not a day that goes by, where I don't marvel at how little we know (or, put another way, how much we still have to learn) concerning these disorders.
Posted by shoebox on January 25, 2005, at 8:11:34
In reply to Re: Aggressive thoughts » tensor, posted by Bob on January 24, 2005, at 13:15:30
My two cents:
Rather than increasing the lithium, augmenting it with a mood stabilizer (Lamictal) worked wonders for my husband, who has not had an "aggressive" thought in many a moon. He is also on a small amount of Prozac, as the lithium and Lamictal are not effective for his depression.
Lamictal supposedly has "antidepressant effects", though I personally haven't found that to be the case. (I am BPII, on Lamictal and Prozac.) From what I have observed of friends and family struggling with these thoughts, the addition of Lamictal has made all the difference. The fact that Lamictal does not affect the liver the way lithium does, makes it a strong contender. In some circles Lamictal is now being considered as a first-line treatment against BPII. I am not sure if it is "strong" enough for BPI--seems lithium is always the magic bullet there--but the combination seems to work really well. A pinch of a carefully chosen AD seems necessary to keep the depression at bay.
This is the end of the thread.
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