![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by KellyD on August 24, 2003, at 8:26:14
In reply to Re: for gut health » KellyD, posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 21:04:50
I seem to always be saying thanks, but I really mean it. I appreciate all the help I receive. And Larry, you're my hero (hope you blushed again)
Posted by KellyD on August 24, 2003, at 9:59:14
In reply to I welcome any info----, posted by KellyD on August 24, 2003, at 8:26:14
Kind of excited... stomach fine still. Starting out slow at 1 per day (200mg) for now. Will keep hoping this tolerance continues.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 10:19:45
In reply to I welcome any info----, posted by KellyD on August 24, 2003, at 8:26:14
> I seem to always be saying thanks, but I really mean it. I appreciate all the help I receive.
You're very welcome. And, I want to thank you for stimulating me with your questions. It may seem bizarre, but I'm more likely to immediately and thoroughly investigate a topic in response to e.g. a posted question, than I am to one that arises in my own mind. (This sort of thing is a frequent topic in therapy..... :-/) That's one of the reasons I love questions being tossed my way. Another reason is that I'm a total geek, majorly fascinated by the world around me.
>And Larry, you're my hero (hope you blushed again)
Yaa... major blushage. ;-)
There is a huge amount of new material in Pubmed about glutamine and gut permeability (I've place a few abstracts, below, for those who want to read that sort of thing). What I found was:
Glutamine is a key regulator of the healing process in damaged intestinal membranes. It doesn't matter if the glutamine is supplied from the gut side (i.e. from food/supps), or from the blood side (from body stores), glutamine is required for proteins synthesis, and the restoration of the permeability barrier.
It also doesn't much matter what caused the injury to the intestinal wall. It could be infection, starvation, loss of perfusion (blood flow), celiac sprue, AIDS, other medical stressors (major skin burns, for example)....all of them respond to glutamine.
With respect to celiac, as an example, my impression is that the effect of gluten exposure is in two stages. First, exposure causes injury (one effect is to damage a key glutamine-dependent enzyme), and causes increased permeability (to all sorts of stuff that shouldn't get into the blood so readily). Then, if gluten exposure occurs before healing can take place, you get some real major damage (and the majority of celiac symptoms arise at this point). Cells die.
To support intestinal cell healing, you need not only glutamine, but also omega-3 fatty acids (where have I seen that stuff mentioned before?), gamma-linolenic acid (GLA, from evening primrose or borage), antioxidants, and short-chain fatty acids (coconut oil is a good source). The whole B-vitamin thing (especially B-12), minerals (zinc and selenium, esp.), and all that, too. I guess that's why megadose vitamin therapy may be so important to some people (like me). If your intestines are chronically injured, you need to get the nutrients by passive absorption, rather than by the normal active transport processes.
About the antioxidants. All cell injury increases oxidative stress. Oxidation is the key to our survival (oxidation of carbs or fat in our cells is the identical process you see in fire), but it is very tightly controlled. Injured cells lose control of oxidation, so antioxidants like vitamin C, vitamin E, selenium, alphalipoic acid, glutathione (indirectly dependent on good supplies of methionine....that whole homocysteine thing) become even more important.
Back to glutamine. Glutamine and glutamate are not the same thing. In the gut, they may well be virually interchangeable, but they are not the same thing to your nervous system.
Glutamine is cheap. A very quick check showed you can get a half-pound of pharmaceutical grade glutamine for $20 US.
I'm definitely going to get me some of that.
Lar
Here are the abstracts. BTW, the last one is a review of the subject, written by a major skeptic (His arguments are weak, IMHO. Far too many "may"s, and similar.) Just for balance.
J Nutr Biochem. 2003 Jul;14(7):401-8.
Glutamine supports recovery from loss of transepithelial resistance and increase of permeability induced by media change in Caco-2 cells(1).Li N, DeMarco VG, West CM, Neu J.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Florida, College of Medicine, 32610, Gainesville, Florida, USA
Recent evidence suggests that the conditionally essential amino acid glutamine is important for intestinal barrier function. However, the mechanism remains undefined. To determine the effects of glutamine on permeability of intestinal epithelial cell monolayers, Caco-2 cells were grown on membrane filters and exposed to 4 mmol/L sodium butyrate in order to rapidly achieve high levels of alkaline phosphatase and high transepithelial resistance as seen in functionally mature enterocytes. A standard method of medium exchange consisting of removal and replacement resulted in a catastrophic loss of transepithelial resistance and increase of mannitol and dextran fluxes that required 2-4 hrs and protein synthesis to recover. The effect was attributed to exposure of the upper monolayer surface to atmosphere and could be avoided by refeeding by incremental perfusion. Spontaneously-differentiated Caco-2 monolayers were resistant to this stress. This novel stress test was employed as a sensitive assay for the requirement of glutamine for monolayer transepithelial resistance and mannitol permeability. Pre-stress glutamine availability was more important than Gln-availability during the recovery phase. Thus the transepithelial resistance and permeability of butyrate-induced monolayers is dynamically-regulated in response to atmospheric exposure, by a mechanism that depends on threshold levels of glutamine availability.
J Nutr. 2003 Jul;133(7):2176-9.
Glutamine and barrier function in cultured Caco-2 epithelial cell monolayers.DeMarco VG, Li N, Thomas J, West CM, Neu J.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Florida College of Medicine, Gainesville, FL 32610, USA.
Dietary glutamine (Gln) has been shown to be important for maintenance of the intestinal barrier. To investigate the role of the epithelium in this Gln dependence, Caco-2 cells were raised on semipermeable membranes under conditions that model different regions of the crypt and villus. Gln availability was controlled by addition to the medium and treatment with methionine sulfoximine to inhibit Gln synthetase (GS). Barrier function was assayed by measuring transepithelial electrical resistance and fluxes of [(14)C]mannitol and fluorescein isothiocyanate-dextran. The barrier function of these monolayers was found to require the Gln provided either in the medium at the apical or basal surface or via GS. However, the barrier was no more sensitive to Gln deprivation than it was to accumulation or maintenance of total protein. These results suggest that the in vivo dependence of the gut mucosal barrier on Gln likely involves roles separate from maintenance of the epithelial barrier per se.
Am J Physiol Gastrointest Liver Physiol. 2003 Jul;285(1):G128-36.
Glutamine preserves protein synthesis and paracellular permeability in Caco-2 cells submitted to "luminal fasting".Le Bacquer O, Laboisse C, Darmaun D.
INSERM U.539, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine Groupe Metabolisme, Hotel-Dieu, 3eme etage aile nord, 44093 Nantes cedex 1, France.
This study used polarized cell line Caco-2 as a model of human enterocytes to determine: 1) whether deprivation of nutrients on the apical (luminal) side of the epithelium (fasting) alters protein synthesis in enterocytes; 2) if so, whether glutamine can attenuate the effects of fasting; and 3) whether the effects of glutamine depend on its route (i.e., apical vs. basolateral) of supply. Caco-2 cells were submitted to nutrient deprivation on the apical side to mimic the effects of fasting, whereas the basolateral side of the epithelium remained exposed to regular medium. Cells were then incubated with [2H3]leucine with or without glutamine, and the fractional synthesis rate (FSR) of total cell protein was determined from [2H3]leucine enrichments in protein-bound and intracellular free leucine measured by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry. A 24-h apical nutrient deprivation (luminal fasting) was associated with a decline in intracellular glutamine, glutamate, and glutathione concentrations (-38, -40, and -40%, respectively), protein FSR (-20%), and a rise in passage of dextran, an index of transepithelial permeability. In fasted cells, basolateral or luminal glutamine supplementation did not alter the glutathione pool, but it restored protein FSR and improved permeability. The effects of glutamine were abolished by 6-diazo-oxo-l-norleucine, an inhibitor of glutaminase, and was mimicked by glutamate. We conclude that in Caco-2 cells, protein synthesis depends on nutrient supply on the apical side, and glutamine regardless of the route of supply corrects some of the deleterious effects of fasting in a model of human enterocytes through its deamidation into glutamate.
Am J Physiol Gastrointest Liver Physiol. 2001 Dec;281(6):G1340-7.
Effects of glutamine deprivation on protein synthesis in a model of human enterocytes in culture.Le Bacquer O, Nazih H, Blottiere H, Meynial-Denis D, Laboisse C, Darmaun D.
INSERM U.539, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine, 44093 Nantes, France.
To assess the effect of glutamine availability on rates of protein synthesis in human enterocytes, Caco-2 cells were grown until differentiation and then submitted to glutamine deprivation produced by exposure to glutamine-free medium or methionine sulfoximine [L-S-[3-amino-3-carboxypropyl]-S-methylsulfoximine (MSO)], a glutamine synthetase inhibitor. Cells were then incubated with (2)H(3)-labeled leucine with or without glutamine, and the fractional synthesis rate (FSR) of total cell protein was determined from (2)H(3)-labeled enrichments in protein-bound and intracellular free leucine measured by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. Both protein FSR (28 +/- 1.5%/day) and intracellular glutamine concentration (6.1 +/- 0.6 micromol/g protein) remained unaltered when cells were grown in glutamine-free medium. In contrast, MSO treatment resulted in a dramatic reduction in protein synthesis (4.6 +/- 0.6 vs. 20.2 +/- 0.8%/day, P < 0.01). Supplementation with 0.5-2 mM glutamine for 4 h after MSO incubation, but not with glycine nor glutamate, restored protein FSR to control values (24 +/- 1%/day). These results demonstrate that in Caco-2 cells, 1) de novo glutamine synthesis is highly active, since it can maintain intracellular glutamine pool during glutamine deprivation, 2) inhibition of glutamine synthesis is associated with reduced protein synthesis, and 3) when glutamine synthesis is depressed, exogenous glutamine restores normal intestinal FSR. Due to the limitations intrinsic to the use of a cell line as an experimental model, the physiological relevance of these findings for the human intestine in vivo remains to be determined.
Clin Sci (Lond). 1995 Sep;89(3):311-9.Protein synthesis in isolated enterocytes from septic or endotoxaemic rats: regulation by glutamine.
Higashiguchi T, Noguchi Y, Meyer T, Fischer JE, Hasselgren PO.
Department of Surgery, University of Cincinnati Medical Center, Ohio, USA.
1. We studied the effect of sepsis and the regulation by glutamine of protein synthesis in enterocytes isolated from the small intestine of rats. 2. Sepsis was induced by caecal ligation and puncture; control rats were sham operated. Enterocytes were isolated from the jejunum and incubated in a medium containing [3H]phenylalanine. 3. Sixteen hours after caecal ligation and puncture, protein synthesis, measured as incorporation of radioactivity into protein, was increased by 65%, 89% and 137% respectively in enterocytes from the tips and mid-portions of the villi and from the crypts. 4. Addition of glutamine to incubated enterocytes stimulated protein synthesis in a dose-dependent manner, and this effect was most pronounced in crypt cells from septic rats. The effect of glutamine on protein synthesis was duplicated by equimolar concentrations of acetoacetate or 3-hydroxybutyrate, both of which may serve as fuel for enterocytes, and was blocked by the glutaminase inhibitor 6-diazo-5-oxo-L-norleucine. 5. The results suggest that sepsis stimulates protein synthesis in enterocytes and that glutamine regulates protein synthesis in the same cells, probably by energy provision.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Jul;74(1):25-32.
Glutamine: commercially essential or conditionally essential? A critical appraisal of the human data.Buchman AL.
Division of Gastroenterology and Hepatology, Northwestern University, Chicago, IL 60611, USA. a-buchman@nwu.edu
Glutamine is a nonessential amino acid that can be synthesized from glutamate and glutamic acid by glutamate-ammonia ligase. Glutamine is an important fuel source for the small intestine. It was proposed that glutamine is necessary for the maintenance of normal intestinal morphology and function in the absence of luminal nutrients. However, intestinal morphologic and functional changes related to enteral fasting and parenteral nutrition are less significant in humans than in animal models and may not be clinically significant. Therefore, it is unclear whether glutamine is necessary for the preservation of normal intestinal morphology and function in humans during parenteral nutrition. It was suggested that both glutamine-supplemented parenteral nutrition and enteral diets may pre-vent bacterial translocation via the preservation and augmentation of small bowel villus morphology, intestinal permeability, and intestinal immune function. However, it is unclear whether clinically relevant bacterial translocation even occurs in humans, much less whether there is any value in the prevention of such occurrences. Results of the therapeutic use of glutamine in humans at nonphysiologic doses indicate limited efficacy. Although glutamine is generally recognized to be safe on the basis of relatively small studies, side effects in patients receiving home parenteral nutrition and in those with liver-function abnormalities have been described. Therefore, on the basis of currently available clinical data, it is inappropriate to recommend glutamine for therapeutic use in any condition.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 10:41:49
In reply to Re: for gut health » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 24, 2003, at 5:43:53
>
> >
> > Hey, Kelly, I've been looking at the "heal the gut" concept a little more, and it seems that fish oil, and another fatty acid, GLA (that's gamma-linolenic acid, found in evening primrose, borage, and black currant oils) are recommended. Also, the amino acid glutamine. I'm going to come back at you with more particulars, after I study that a bit more.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> Lar, I was going to mention the glutamine for your "gut" too "Gut instinct" said it may help for you. Glad you found it. You mentioned "mild coeliac" somewhere......Thank you. I appreciate the support. BTW, gut instinct is really a wonderful thing. There's a substantial enteric nervous system, kind of a mini-brain down there, and it uses the same neurotransmitters as the big one up top. I've seen some references claiming there's more serotonin in the gut than in the head (which explains gastrointestinal side-effects of SSRIs, IMHO).
> Some have found glutamine helps fix the "leaky gut", and then they no longer had any "mild" problems with coeliac,etc or IBS...and then they could digest foods ..and health problems cleared up..(of course they did do other stuff at the same time...)
It may well be one of my "missing puzzle pieces", indeed. Well worth the experiment.
> My self, I have it on the "To be tried" list. I've taken it a couple of times, but never given it a fair trial. I'm going for fish oil first..then some of your other suggestions.I really, really hope you get some positive results. <fingers crossed> <eyes, arms, legs, and toes crossed, too, if it'll help any>
> One ex-doc (Larrian, was a urologist then she too became symptomatic so now writes diet books etc.) was always going on in replies to posters about the "gag layer" and "leaky gut" and suggested glutamine among other things to "fix" the gag layer I think?Gag layer? That's a new term to me. I'll do a search on that. <Ah, the glycoaminoglycan layer. More on that, after another pause to research and reflect.> You're a fountain of ideas. vbg
Leaky gut is a symptom, in my opinion. Not a syndrome in itself. Like joint pain.
> Here's the posts if you are interested
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=47884.9
> and the two following posts 10, 11I like the link to fibro that message 11 raises. As Schultz used to say "Verrry interesting!".
> I think getting the omega 3-6's right would help here too ..in making the lining stronger (instinct here only)..although I have seen remarkable improvements in my skin(and others) with applying mix of oils(EPO, almond, jojoba, coconut), aloe vera, shea butter etc...this is where I broke open the fish oil cap..and found it was rancid..lol..so it didn't get added to the skin cream mix!The skin is permeable in the same way as is the gut (consider transdermal nicotine patches). It doesn't much matter how the essential fatty acids get to the skin. Now, by extension, you might see that all your similar tissues, like the gut lining, might be starving for those fatty acids, as well.
Rancid fats are always unsaturated fats. The unsaturated bits readily oxidize. There's no point in ingesting rancid fats. They'll just put further stress on your body. Freshness is key. The gelcaps that many fatty acid supps are packaged in block oxygen exposure. Keeping them cool and dark is also a good idea.
> The cream actually seem to help the skin get thicker, stronger and more subtle.Definitely less dry and less prone to cracking etc......so perhaps something similar could happen to internal linings too with fish oils etc....gut instinct only
You really do understand this all much better than I think you give yourself credit....
> I (and all my kids)went on elimation diets many years ago, and only found suspected sensitivites or allergies possibly to some amines... red wine, mature cheese, and sodium metabisulphate and some preservative .. the sulphites?..like 282, and some artificial colours like 102, 110.Overt sensitivities, I'd like to emphasize.
The numbered additives concept is not used in North America. It's wonderful. Simple, and clear.
> Actually we were thrown out of the study as I wouldn't say we had reactions to salicylate(so I never really got to blind trial the additives)..and the study was supposed to show salicylate sensitivity for ADD...she actually got her PHD from that study!
Salicylates.....I'm not convinced that salicylates are the guilty party, but may be associated with another trigger substance. Perhaps its worth another look....
> Sidetracked....what I meant was I also show possible mild coeliac symptoms..but I really don't think I have it, but I suspect when I fix my digestion/absorption with bromelaine, fish oil etc, and perhaps glutamine, then all will be clear.
Better, anyway.
> Not sure if this helps as I really have no idea, just you are not alone in the direction of your thoughts and it has seemed to work before..
> JanI really appreciate your contributions, Jan.
Lar
Posted by KellyD on August 25, 2003, at 7:47:38
In reply to Re: I welcome any info---- » KellyD, posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 10:19:45
Day 3 of the Mag Gly and still going well. Another, somewhat embarrassing, question. I started the Fish Oils yesterday. Going slow, as prudence is best for me. No burp issues, but "air" was involved. Putting it as delicately as possible - flatus (interesting word). Anyway, not the painful variety, except for those who you have to share company with. Does this improve? I could possible blame it on something else in yesterday's diet. Just checking to see if this has been a "learning curve" found by others.
Again, thanks for your interest in me and the subject matter. You are so helpful.
Kelly
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 8:08:12
In reply to Another Query, Mr. Hoover------, posted by KellyD on August 25, 2003, at 7:47:38
> Day 3 of the Mag Gly and still going well. Another, somewhat embarrassing, question. I started the Fish Oils yesterday. Going slow, as prudence is best for me. No burp issues, but "air" was involved. Putting it as delicately as possible - flatus (interesting word). Anyway, not the painful variety, except for those who you have to share company with. Does this improve? I could possible blame it on something else in yesterday's diet. Just checking to see if this has been a "learning curve" found by others.
> Again, thanks for your interest in me and the subject matter. You are so helpful.
> KellyI've never associated fish oil with flatus. A single day's experience is rather a brief time to develop any conclusions, in any case. I hope your social interactions are, uhhh, more subdued, today.
Lar
Posted by KellyD on August 25, 2003, at 8:56:02
In reply to Re: Another Query, Mr. Hoover------ » KellyD, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 8:08:12
I'm glad to hear that. No, I'm certainly not going to give up at this early stage. I was just wondering. As I said, could have been other factors in the dietary mix. I am pleased to say that socially I will be limited today and who knows whos it is in the Walmart - (sly smile)
Kelly
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 25, 2003, at 12:24:55
In reply to Re: for gut health » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 24, 2003, at 10:41:49
Breaking on in here. I've found good results with Carlson's Lemon Flavored Cod Liver Oil. It's high grade purified non-rancid good tasting oil with the correct ratio of EPA to DHA's for mood disorders. For brain health you need at least 9grams and taking it via liquid (approx 1 T morning and eve) is a whole lot easier than a fistfull of capsules that may not be fresh. You need to keep the liquid in the fridge, or even the freezer. I get mine at www.iherb.com cause it's really cheap. Thanks for the 'take it with fat' advice, Lar. Didn't know that.
For the gut thing, it's a huge issue (no pun intended). I also have gut permeability and am on a long road back to healing it. I've cut down on gluten foods. Even though I don't have celiac, the word is that gluten can irritate and damage the intestinal cilia anyway. I take a product called 'Primal Defense' which has some mongo intestinal flora growth attributes. As my hormonal levels get stabilized (my recent hormonal panel from my naturopath was very unbalanced and scary), all will begin to coalesce. You might also give coral calcium a try. It has all minerals in an absorbable whole food form, along with good levels of magnesium.
Posted by KellyD on August 25, 2003, at 12:43:31
In reply to Re: for gut health » Larry Hoover, posted by BarbaraCat on August 25, 2003, at 12:24:55
For the info. So far, so good with this, at an early stage, but I'm excited.
I appreciate the info on an alternative if this doesn't work well for me.
Kelly
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 15:16:51
In reply to Re: for gut health » Larry Hoover, posted by BarbaraCat on August 25, 2003, at 12:24:55
> Breaking on in here. I've found good results with Carlson's Lemon Flavored Cod Liver Oil. It's high grade purified non-rancid good tasting oil with the correct ratio of EPA to DHA's for mood disorders. For brain health you need at least 9grams and taking it via liquid (approx 1 T morning and eve) is a whole lot easier than a fistfull of capsules that may not be fresh. You need to keep the liquid in the fridge, or even the freezer. I get mine at www.iherb.com cause it's really cheap. Thanks for the 'take it with fat' advice, Lar. Didn't know that.
I have a concern about the quantity of liver oil you're using. You could be getting way more than the tolerable limit of vitamins A and D, which will accumulate in your body and hurt your liver. What does the label say about dose, or about vitamin concentration?
> For the gut thing, it's a huge issue (no pun intended). I also have gut permeability and am on a long road back to healing it. I've cut down on gluten foods. Even though I don't have celiac, the word is that gluten can irritate and damage the intestinal cilia anyway.
From what I've read, I'd have to agree with you. Different people are more resistant to the damage, but we don't say they're celiac-negative. Frequency of exposure is a major variable, as is quantity of exposure. When my kids go back to school next week, I'm going to start a true exclusion diet, and see what comes of that.
> I take a product called 'Primal Defense' which has some mongo intestinal flora growth attributes.
So, it's a probiotic?
> As my hormonal levels get stabilized (my recent hormonal panel from my naturopath was very unbalanced and scary), all will begin to coalesce.
Ya, I was just reading that whole thread. The big deal with me is that I first have to find someone I trust. I'm not going to let just anybody start messing around with my hormones. An old friend of mine just opened a practice. She got her M.D. at Brashear (I don't know how to spell it, but it's a holistic medical program).
> You might also give coral calcium a try. It has all minerals in an absorbable whole food form, along with good levels of magnesium.
Thanks for the tip.
Lar
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 11:42:13
In reply to Re: for gut health » BarbaraCat, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 15:16:51
Hi Larry,
>
> >I have a concern about the quantity of liver oil you're using. You could be getting way more than the tolerable limit of vitamins A and D, which will accumulate in your body and hurt your liver. What does the label say about dose, or about vitamin concentration?**I was concerned about that at first as well, being liver derived (a trivia fact: Polar Bears have a LETHAL level of Vitamin A in their livers! No liver and onions for me if I'm ever at the North Pole!). Carlson's has 2,500 IU per 2 teaspoons, so well within the daily required dose. It's also highly purified so without the mercury toxins other less expensive brands can't seem to claim. It's been recommended by a number of nutritionists I respect. Here's the link to it:
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/norwcodoil.html
You'll also see products on that page for molecularly distilled liquid fish oil that I'm going to look into. I would prefer to take something other than cod liver oil, even though it seems to be working just fine. Carlson's (a brand I respect) has come out with an Omega 3 liquid oil not liver derived that I'm going to check out. Here ya go:http://www.iherb.com/theveryfish.html
I've taken Dr. Barry Sears pharm grade fish oil in the past, but at $65 bucks a pop, it was getting too dear.
Iherb.com is really the best resource I've found on the web for most nutritionals. They have good prices, free shipping over $50 and you can take additional discounts based on different order levels at the time of ordering. There's also some links to good nutritional and mood disorder research info as well.
>
>> So, it's [Primal Defense] a probiotic?**Yes, but a very interesting one in that it touts a different method colonization of bacteria that are mainly derived from soil organisms. Rather than just introducing good intestinal flora, these critters are said to colonize and work at loosening impacted gunk from the intestinal walls. Kinda disgusting, but hey, whatever works. Another link:
http://store.yahoo.com/iherb/primaldefense1.html
>
> I'm not going to let just anybody start messing around with my hormones.
>
**Smart man. I wish I'd had testing done before trusting 'Doctor knows best' on my cookie cutter hormone regimen. Ended up with hemmoraging due to endometrial hyperplasia from excess estrogen.It seems to be overly difficult to find someone who understands hormonal interplay in general (most endos are, well, worthless sounds so harsh, but really - they're worthless), but especially someone who knows how they contribute to mood. It amazes me the number of medical practitioners who claim that 'the science isn't in yet' about the hormone/mood connection. I mean, can you spell P M S? Duh!
>
> Thanks for the tip.**You're always a source of great info for me. Glad to return the favor.
>BarbCat
Posted by McPac on August 26, 2003, at 22:35:39
In reply to Re: for gut health » BarbaraCat, posted by Larry Hoover on August 25, 2003, at 15:16:51
Lar, re: Primal Defense...that's the product w/ the homeostatic soil organisms that I was telling you about a couple of weeks ago....PD is supposed to be more than just the typical probiotic....the book, "Patient, Heal Thyself" explains it well (but it's written by the dude that owns the PD co)....I'd send you the book if I could!
Posted by Kacy on August 26, 2003, at 22:43:37
In reply to Re: for gut health » Larry Hoover, posted by BarbaraCat on August 26, 2003, at 11:42:13
Hi, Larry. I read all your posts and keep many as notes. I have been trying the suggestions.
So far, I tried fish oil three times. The second time I took it religiously for a month. I could only tolerate two black capsules without noticing my heart pound. I don't have heart problems. I got acne so badly that month I couldn't believe it. It's a problem, anyway. I took zinc and e with it and ate the fish oil with yogurt. The third time, I tried it just to see if it caused the acne. This time I broke out on day two. By four days, I regretted continuing. Two other people on this board posting about fish oil causing acne recently.
I tried flax seed oil and seemed to get acne, too. I am getting ready to try it again. I didn't keep taking it for long and something else may have broken me out.
In the meantime, I'm looking for alternatives. So far, I started having a handful of plain almonds a day. I found the following information on the net. I not sure if these sources are as good as cod liver oil or fish oil. There always seems to be a catch.
Walnuts: "New studies show that walnuts contain omega-3 fatty acids. Fish are the more familiar source of these beneficial fats, but walnuts contain an omega-3 called alpha linolenic acid (ALA). A high intake of ALA is protective against heart attack. Studies suggest that 2 grams of ALA--the amount in an ounce of walnuts--a day is sufficient to produce these benefits.""English walnuts are a supersource of omega-3 fatty acid, which is considered the main lifesaving agent in fish. Walnuts have five times more omega-3 than any other nut. Very few plant foods have any at all. Walnuts also are high in antioxidant anti-cancer ellagic acid. "
"The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid:… 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves)."
[Larry: is an ounce of walnuts, then, a good supply compared to the amounts people talk about taking on this board?]
Almonds: "Almonds have the most nutrients per calorie; they are packed with calcium, vitamin E, magnesium, potassium, folic acid, riboflavin and the most fiber of any nut - 3 grams per ounce. Almonds are exceptionally high in vitamin E, which helps thwart artery clogging, boosts immunity and may help prevent cancer. " [Larry - I thought these had Omega 3 but can't find the note, now. I think I've been eating the wrong nuts. Should have been eating walnuts.]
Brazil nuts: "The large crescent-shaped kernels contain alpha-linolenic acid, which converts to omega-3 fatty acids in the body; it is the omega-3 fatty acids which scientists feel may reduce the risk of heart disease."
"Brazil nuts, a holiday favorite, are the food richest in selenium, a potent antioxidant linked to low rates of cancer and heart disease. If you ate only one Brazil nut a day, you would never be deficient in selenium, says Donald J. Lisk, at Cornell University. Gobbling more than a half-dozen Brazil nuts every day could add up to nausea-causing selenium toxicity, he cautions. "
I found this information, below, too. Are the items they mention as good as fish oil or are there better ways?"Only a few foods are rich in alpha-linolenic acid. In the Lyon study, participants ate a specially prepared canola-oil margarine high in this omega-3. (In the traditional Mediterranean diet, such foods as walnuts and a dark leafy green called purslane supply alpha-linolenic acid.) You can easily match the amount of alpha-linolenic acid the study participants consumed: 1% of total calories, or 2 grams a day, by adding canola oil, soybean oil, flaxseed, or walnuts to your diet. The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid: 2 tbsp. canola or soybean oil; 1 tbsp. flaxseed; or 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves). But don't go overboard: Some studies suggest that taking in very high amounts of alpha-linolenic acid leads to an increased risk of prostate cancer.
"The Supplement Alternative You can also get alpha-linolenic acid by taking flaxseed oil supplements, but it's an expensive way to do so. Four 1,000 mg capsules are needed to get 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid. A better source may be bottled flaxseed oil (sold in health-food stores--keep it refrigerated), which can be used in place of other vegetable oils in salad dressings or to flavor foods. Many people enjoy the nutty taste of flaxseed oil. One tablespoon has 7.5 grams of alpha-linolenic acid. You can bake with flaxseed oil, but don't use it to fry or saute: It breaks down under very high heat."
Larry: Is a tablespoon of flax oil enough? Can I get the same results making waffles, etc. with any 'ol grocery store canola oil instead of the expensive flax oil? That's not only cheaper, but this is a lot of fat grams to add to my diet when fat makes me gain weight and I could be using it for the oil in my food.
Also: I started taking these softgel Bluebonnet Tonalin CLA 1000 Safflower Oil 1000 mg. 72% - 82 % Conjugated Linoleic Acid supplements. Other ingredients: Gelatin, glycerin, water, conjugated linoleic acid (Tonalin), fatty acids. Is this the same thing as the stuff above and did I pay a ridiculous price for nothing but safflower oil in gelatin? Would the same amount of any 'ol safflower oil from the store be the same?
I would appreciate your help on these questions.
Posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 0:12:53
In reply to Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 , posted by Kacy on August 26, 2003, at 22:43:37
Hi, I'm not Larry but I think I can add something to help here perhaps too with some things...
> So far, I tried fish oil three times. The second time I took it religiously for a month. I could only tolerate two black capsules without noticing my heart pound. I don't have heart problems.
OK, so you'd have to cut the amount you are taking..probably no more than one capsule, once or twice a week to start with for a few months.
Pounding heart usually signals increased T3 activity to me..may be other causes..anyway..it'sa possibility as fish oil supposedly can increase T3 receptor efficiency
http://www.udoerasmus.com/articles/reviews/item21.htm go down to thyroid hoormone receptors.
IF this is what is happening it means you really do need the fish oil..but will have to build it up very gradually..even over years. Fish oil may be different to flax seed or walnuts (both have omega3)...even just swallow drop of fish oil..or eat some sardines/ salmon 3 times a week is the better way to go?I got acne so badly that month I couldn't believe it. It's a problem, anyway. I took zinc and e with it and ate the fish oil with yogurt. The third time, I tried it just to see if it caused the acne. This time I broke out on day two. By four days, I regretted continuing. Two other people on this board posting about fish oil causing acne recently.
>
> I tried flax seed oil and seemed to get acne, too. I am getting ready to try it again. I didn't keep taking it for long and something else may have broken me out.
>No, I think you are onto something there. I think I break out in acne too..really big ones on the forehead side with big yellow ugly heads that leave scars, sigh. Never had anything like thi before either!
It probably can also be caused by other oils ..like I have heard of EPO doing this too..even if applied to skin instead of swallowed..at least that is what I think is happening to me.
One doc said that it means our bodies are taking the wrong pathway again ...dumb body!...and converting the EPO (GLA's) to androgenic hormones...which apparently can happen.Like our bodies decide to make testosterone out of GLA's I think. I wonder why some of us do this ? Anyone any ideas of what we have too much of or are missing?
Similarly it is found that some taking CLA's will convert down some wrong pathway to cause increaed insulin resoistance and make one prone to diabetesII....haven't tried that one and not going toSo what's this mean? Well, personally, I'm NOT trying CLA's. With the omega 6's and GLA's (like EPO)..I wouldn't overdo, but I'm still trying on my skin with the occasional EPO capsule to try to get my body "used " to them. Definitely no more than one every 2-3 days or so.
I do realise , like Lar said that we have to have a balance of omega3's to omega 6's.
http://www.longevinst.org/nlt/EFAs.pdf look at table 2 for decreasing order of omega3's....even butter is not too bad..and that doesn't cause any of these wierd side effects..nor did beef lard!I think these oils (omega 6's and 3's) cause flatuence too...and that's not even swallowing them..just appying to skin, I think!
It could be something else..I haven't really tried on and off enough to be certain..in the menatime, I try to keep the dog handy...
> In the meantime, I'm looking for alternatives. So far, I started having a handful of plain almonds a day. I found the following information on the net. I not sure if these sources are as good as cod liver oil or fish oil. There always seems to be a catch.well almonds don't contain n-3..still good choice for other things and healthy
>
>
> Walnuts: "New studies show that walnuts contain omega-3 fatty acids. Fish are the more familiar source of these beneficial fats, but walnuts contain an omega-3 called alpha linolenic acid (ALA). A high intake of ALA is protective against heart attack. Studies suggest that 2 grams of ALA--the amount in an ounce of walnuts--a day is sufficient to produce these benefits."
>
> "English walnuts are a supersource of omega-3 fatty acid, which is considered the main lifesaving agent in fish. Walnuts have five times more omega-3 than any other nut. Very few plant foods have any at all. Walnuts also are high in antioxidant anti-cancer ellagic acid. "
>
> "The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid:… 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves)."Do walnuts give you pimples or flatuence? Maybe walnuts are a good place to start? I've eaten almonds OK with no side effects. Now walnuts and almonds would give a nice balance
While on nuts, brazil nuts ..about 2 a day give you enough selenium ..and almonds (I think from memory) contain a bit of selenium and calcium and VitE..which is supposed to be taken in conjunction with fish oil I think??
So maybe half a dozen almonds, half a dozen walnuts, 2 brazil nuts every day and 1 fish oilcap (or sardines etc) ..about 2 times a week for starters??
How's that sound Lar?
Posted by Kacy on August 27, 2003, at 9:47:23
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » Kacy, posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 0:12:53
Tealady: thank you for the questions you answered. I am going to read those sites. I'm also going to have to re-read your letter to get it. In the meantime: what is T3 activity, EPO (evening primrose oil?) , GLA (gamma lin…something acid?)?
I don't know how I picked almonds. After I read a lot, I was getting too confused. Here's what they contain:
ALMONDS 1 ounce 167 Calories
15 Total fat (g) 1.4 Saturated fat (g) 9.6 Monounsaturated fat (g) 3.1 Polyunsaturated fat (g)
3.1 Dietary fiber (g) 6 Protein (g) 6 Carbohydrate (g) 0 Cholesterol (mg)
3 Sodium (mg) 6.8 Vitamin E (mg) .6 Manganese (mg) 84 Magnesium (mg) 147 Phosphorus (mg)BRAZIL NUTS 1 ounce 186 Calories 1 lb. in the shell = 1 1/2 cups of nutmeats
19 Total fat (g) 4.6 Saturated fat (g) 6.5 Monounsaturated fat (g) 6.8 Polyunsaturated fat (g)
1.5 Dietary fiber (g) 4 Protein (g) 4 Carbohydrate (g) 0 Cholesterol (mg) 1 Sodium (mg)
.3 Thiamin (mg) .5 Copper (mg) 64 Magnesium (mg) 170 Phosphorus (mg) 839 Selenium (mcg)WALNUTS 1 ounce 182 Calories
18 Total fat (g) 1.6 Saturated fat (g) 4 Monounsaturated fat (g) 11 Polyunsaturated fat (g)
1.4 Dietary fiber (g) 4 Protein (g) 5 Carbohydrate (g) 0 Cholesterol (mg)
3 Sodium (mg) .4 Copper (mg) 48 Magnesium (mg) 0.8 Manganese (mg)
On the flatulence: I haven't started walnuts, yet, so I don't know. I guess I'll be getting some today. I never had a problem with that until I took Effexor. (Joking with friends once, I said "I don't make body noises." It was true. All of a sudden I knew why others had trouble with beans. I'll now have to limit how much I eat of those.) I had a terrible problem until I put flatulence into Google and came up with a serotonin connection. I had been eating frozen pasta dinners (two for one sale at the store) and I read about white pasta and white flour in the intestines. I dropped those dinners and my problem went away. Black licorice made with molasses instead of corn syrup brought it back. I am now finding sensitivities I never had before, so I wonder if you need to consider that as you take something hormone related that you could now be reacting to foods you have always eaten. Maybe you need to examine the usual suspects.As to your theory that I could work up an ability to take fish oil: Why would I even need fish oil if I eat walnuts? Isn't it the same? Fighting my skin problems has been the bane of my existence forever. Fish oil = acne. Big time. I have never seen such a direct connection before, short of dropping some oily food on my chin or getting it around my mouth. Then I break out, sure…but fish oil and acne is the strongest connection I have ever seen.
As to the CLA, I started taking CLA because someone on this board said he lost weight with it. I don't remember how much he took, though. I am taking one of those tabs I described in my last post each morning. I haven't noticed a bad reaction in my skin. I started nine days ago with a new supplement selection. Something is doing good things to my skin, right now, so I'm pretty sure CLA is not a problem for that. Of course, it is just safflower oil—I think. That is one of the big questions I had for Larry. Is that tab just safflower oil in gelatin?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:04:09
In reply to Lar, Re: for gut health, posted by McPac on August 26, 2003, at 22:35:39
> Lar, re: Primal Defense...that's the product w/ the homeostatic soil organisms that I was telling you about a couple of weeks ago....PD is supposed to be more than just the typical probiotic....the book, "Patient, Heal Thyself" explains it well (but it's written by the dude that owns the PD co)....I'd send you the book if I could!
Oh, OK. I didn't recognize the product name. By no means am I in a position to criticize the efficacy of the product. I recall that I thought the rationale was bogus. Something works (or not) quite independently of your hypothesis as to why it might work.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:41:07
In reply to Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 , posted by Kacy on August 26, 2003, at 22:43:37
> Hi, Larry. I read all your posts and keep many as notes. I have been trying the suggestions.
>
> So far, I tried fish oil three times. The second time I took it religiously for a month. I could only tolerate two black capsules without noticing my heart pound. I don't have heart problems. I got acne so badly that month I couldn't believe it.I don't quite know what to suggest about these problems, but I'll see what I can find out. I suspect that your response may indicate that you also need to take other fatty acids at the same time (I'm thinking about GLA, gamma-linolenic acid), but there may be something else involved. One of the big issues for me, with regards to nutritional interactions, is that there really isn't a good body of proper scientific information to draw on, other than in regards to treating overt deficiency, or genetic defects.
> It's a problem, anyway. I took zinc and e with it and ate the fish oil with yogurt. The third time, I tried it just to see if it caused the acne. This time I broke out on day two. By four days, I regretted continuing. Two other people on this board posting about fish oil causing acne recently.
I'll keep looking. What about fish itself? Do you react to it?
> I tried flax seed oil and seemed to get acne, too. I am getting ready to try it again. I didn't keep taking it for long and something else may have broken me out.
>
> In the meantime, I'm looking for alternatives. So far, I started having a handful of plain almonds a day. I found the following information on the net. I not sure if these sources are as good as cod liver oil or fish oil. There always seems to be a catch.There is no plant source that is equivalent to fish oil, except for an algae-based source of DHA (which may well be the ultimate source for all fish....little critters eat the algae, little fish eat the little critters, and so on). But this plant product has no EPA (though some will probably be converted by your body).
Plant-source omega-3's are generally in the form of alpha-linolenic acid. That's an eighteen carbon chain, with three unsaturated positions. To make EPA from ALA, the chain must be elongated once, and desaturated twice. Three enzymatic reactions. To get to DHA, there are two elongations, and three desaturations. All this must take place amongst competition from other fatty acids, particularly the omega-6s that we all get far too much of. That's one of the reasons that the omega-6:omega-3 ratio is so important. It's a measure of the competition, as much as it is of supply.
There is recent evidence that males do not convert alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA to any appreciable extent (less than 1% conversion). Females do better (probably genetically able to convert better, to feed the fetus and newborn), but still manage, at best, 12% conversion. The take-home message is, there is no substitute for fish oil, except for an algae-based DHA oil (no EPA), called Neuromins.
> Walnuts: "New studies show that walnuts contain omega-3 fatty acids. Fish are the more familiar source of these beneficial fats, but walnuts contain an omega-3 called alpha linolenic acid (ALA). A high intake of ALA is protective against heart attack. Studies suggest that 2 grams of ALA--the amount in an ounce of walnuts--a day is sufficient to produce these benefits."
>
> "English walnuts are a supersource of omega-3 fatty acid, which is considered the main lifesaving agent in fish. Walnuts have five times more omega-3 than any other nut. Very few plant foods have any at all. Walnuts also are high in antioxidant anti-cancer ellagic acid. "
>
> "The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid:… 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves)."
>
> [Larry: is an ounce of walnuts, then, a good supply compared to the amounts people talk about taking on this board?]That's a decent amount, but the conversion issue still remains unresolved.
> Almonds: "Almonds have the most nutrients per calorie; they are packed with calcium, vitamin E, magnesium, potassium, folic acid, riboflavin and the most fiber of any nut - 3 grams per ounce. Almonds are exceptionally high in vitamin E, which helps thwart artery clogging, boosts immunity and may help prevent cancer. " [Larry - I thought these had Omega 3 but can't find the note, now. I think I've been eating the wrong nuts. Should have been eating walnuts.]
As far as I'm concerned, eating nuts is a good thing all around (so long as they are fresh). Almonds don't have quite the amount of ALA, but they've got more of other essential stuff.
> Brazil nuts: "The large crescent-shaped kernels contain alpha-linolenic acid, which converts to omega-3 fatty acids in the body; it is the omega-3 fatty acids which scientists feel may reduce the risk of heart disease."
>
> "Brazil nuts, a holiday favorite, are the food richest in selenium, a potent antioxidant linked to low rates of cancer and heart disease. If you ate only one Brazil nut a day, you would never be deficient in selenium, says Donald J. Lisk, at Cornell University. Gobbling more than a half-dozen Brazil nuts every day could add up to nausea-causing selenium toxicity, he cautions. "I'm glad you brought up the Brazil nut/selenium link.
> I found this information, below, too. Are the items they mention as good as fish oil or are there better ways?
>
> "Only a few foods are rich in alpha-linolenic acid. In the Lyon study, participants ate a specially prepared canola-oil margarine high in this omega-3. (In the traditional Mediterranean diet, such foods as walnuts and a dark leafy green called purslane supply alpha-linolenic acid.) You can easily match the amount of alpha-linolenic acid the study participants consumed: 1% of total calories, or 2 grams a day, by adding canola oil, soybean oil, flaxseed, or walnuts to your diet. The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid: 2 tbsp. canola or soybean oil; 1 tbsp. flaxseed; or 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves). But don't go overboard: Some studies suggest that taking in very high amounts of alpha-linolenic acid leads to an increased risk of prostate cancer.The cancer link is probably due to oxidative stress. All polyunsaturates increase oxidative stress, which is why I so frequently mention antioxidant supps.
> "The Supplement Alternative You can also get alpha-linolenic acid by taking flaxseed oil supplements, but it's an expensive way to do so. Four 1,000 mg capsules are needed to get 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid. A better source may be bottled flaxseed oil (sold in health-food stores--keep it refrigerated), which can be used in place of other vegetable oils in salad dressings or to flavor foods. Many people enjoy the nutty taste of flaxseed oil. One tablespoon has 7.5 grams of alpha-linolenic acid. You can bake with flaxseed oil, but don't use it to fry or saute: It breaks down under very high heat."
>
> Larry: Is a tablespoon of flax oil enough? Can I get the same results making waffles, etc. with any 'ol grocery store canola oil instead of the expensive flax oil?Note that heat destroys omega-3s. You shouldn't consider oils used for cooking as a source for polyunsaturates. There may only be partial destruction, but there will be some. The black stuff that builds up on baking pans is cross-linked (oxidized) unsaturated fatty acids. If you've ever spilled vegetable oil near a hot burner, and not noticed it until later, you'll have found it doesn't wipe up easily (like saturated fat from meat probably would), because it turns readily to varnish.
Flax oil (for human consumption) is the same stuff as linseed oil (used in varnish). DO NOT EAT LINSEED OIL! IT HAS BEEN MADE POISONOUS BY THE PROCESSING THAT MAKES IT A GOOD VARNISH! It's the high PUFA content that turns it into varnish. Oxygen from the air reacts with all the unsaturated fatty acids, forming crosslinks. The fatty acids form a network that hardens. The same thing would happen inside your body, without all the antioxidant defenses in place.
Flax oil is a good source of ALA, but once agian, conversion to EPA and DHA is anything but assured.
> That's not only cheaper, but this is a lot of fat grams to add to my diet when fat makes me gain weight and I could be using it for the oil in my food.Alternating sugar and carbs causes weight gain. Fat is a neutral dietary component. Look at the obesity epidemic, and that's occurring despite all the low-fat foods. Read about Atkins, if you want to understand more about how this all works.
> Also: I started taking these softgel Bluebonnet Tonalin CLA 1000 Safflower Oil 1000 mg. 72% - 82 % Conjugated Linoleic Acid supplements. Other ingredients: Gelatin, glycerin, water, conjugated linoleic acid (Tonalin), fatty acids. Is this the same thing as the stuff above and did I pay a ridiculous price for nothing but safflower oil in gelatin?
Conjugated linoleic acids are natural byproducts of the digestion of ruminant animals (e.g. cows and goats), and we normally obtain them from whole milk and butter. Manmade products (like you bought) are actually more potent than natural versions. They do promote weight loss, and other good things, but don't take a high dose (I think the price will help with that decision).
> Would the same amount of any 'ol safflower oil from the store be the same?
No. Not even close. You're paying a high price because the raw material was highly processed.
> I would appreciate your help on these questions.
>My pleasure.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:53:25
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » Kacy, posted by tealady on August 27, 2003, at 0:12:53
> Hi, I'm not Larry but I think I can add something to help here perhaps too with some things...
> > So far, I tried fish oil three times. The second time I took it religiously for a month. I could only tolerate two black capsules without noticing my heart pound. I don't have heart problems.
> OK, so you'd have to cut the amount you are taking..probably no more than one capsule, once or twice a week to start with for a few months.
> Pounding heart usually signals increased T3 activity to me..may be other causes..anyway..it'sa possibility as fish oil supposedly can increase T3 receptor efficiency
> http://www.udoerasmus.com/articles/reviews/item21.htm go down to thyroid hoormone receptors.
> IF this is what is happening it means you really do need the fish oil..but will have to build it up very gradually..even over years.That's quite a reasonable explanation. Thanks! Her body will have adapted to whatever her old enzyme efficiency was, and the increase in efficiency with supplemented omega-3s would be indistiguishable from hyperthyroid symptoms.
Indeed, a reduced dose, gradually raised over a lengthy time frame, is a darn good idea.
>Fish oil may be different to flax seed or walnuts (both have omega3)...even just swallow drop of fish oil..or eat some sardines/ salmon 3 times a week is the better way to go?
I definitely think the latter idea is also worth trying.
> > I tried flax seed oil and seemed to get acne, too. I am getting ready to try it again. I didn't keep taking it for long and something else may have broken me out.
> >
>
> No, I think you are onto something there. I think I break out in acne too..really big ones on the forehead side with big yellow ugly heads that leave scars, sigh. Never had anything like this before either!Have you tried the low and slow dose regime that you suggested, above?
> It probably can also be caused by other oils ..like I have heard of EPO doing this too..even if applied to skin instead of swallowed..at least that is what I think is happening to me.
Taking EPO and any omega-3 at the same time may block this adverse reaction.
> One doc said that it means our bodies are taking the wrong pathway again ...dumb body!...and converting the EPO (GLA's) to androgenic hormones...which apparently can happen.Like our bodies decide to make testosterone out of GLA's I think. I wonder why some of us do this ? Anyone any ideas of what we have too much of or are missing?
The omega-3 synergy may solve it. I don't know for sure....I haven't had the problem, so I haven't done the experiment.
> Similarly it is found that some taking CLA's will convert down some wrong pathway to cause increaed insulin resoistance and make one prone to diabetesII....haven't tried that one and not going to
It can happen, but I think chromium blocks that adverse result. I'll have to get back to you on that. (I'm not at home.....I'm at my ex's place for a few days.}
> So what's this mean? Well, personally, I'm NOT trying CLA's. With the omega 6's and GLA's (like EPO)..I wouldn't overdo, but I'm still trying on my skin with the occasional EPO capsule to try to get my body "used " to them. Definitely no more than one every 2-3 days or so.
> I do realise , like Lar said that we have to have a balance of omega3's to omega 6's.
> http://www.longevinst.org/nlt/EFAs.pdf look at table 2 for decreasing order of omega3's....even butter is not too bad..and that doesn't cause any of these wierd side effects..nor did beef lard!Thanks for the link! Butter has been given a real bad press, and it is way better for you than margarine. In fact, if you can get butter from pastured cattle (and beef from same), you may not even need omega-3 supps.
> I think these oils (omega 6's and 3's) cause flatuence too...and that's not even swallowing them..just appying to skin, I think!
Wow! Really?
> It could be something else..I haven't really tried on and off enough to be certain..in the menatime, I try to keep the dog handy...
LOL!
> So maybe half a dozen almonds, half a dozen walnuts, 2 brazil nuts every day and 1 fish oilcap (or sardines etc) ..about 2 times a week for starters??
> How's that sound Lar?Excellent.
Lar
Posted by Kacy on August 27, 2003, at 18:28:08
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » Kacy, posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:41:07
Larry, thanks for your response.
I've never eaten fish regularly enough to know and notice a connection. My skin is clearing now and I will try salmon three times a week. Do you know how much salmon I need to eat? Are the salmon steaks as good as the filets? It is expensive and I'd like to just get what I need. I'll try some sardines, too, and see if I like them. How many sardines do I need to eat?
I tried the Atkins diet. I lost four lbs and spent a lot for it. I don't care to live on it. Others lose 12-16 lbs in that time period. I didn't cheat on the diet. I was able to lose weight (albeit slowly) before I began Effexor. I'm so sorry I had 20 extra lbs on then. Now I can't get them off. Effexor has made a lot of things different.
When I dieted before, though, I just kept the fat grams down to 55-60 grams a day. It wasn't low fat. I don't worry about going over if it is olive oil, nuts, Ben and Jerry's frozen yogurt, avocados, peanut butter on whole wheat (which satisfies me better than any food) and other heathy foods. Even when I eat too many fat grams, if I have not been eating useless calories like fat-filled candy or desserts or fried foods or pizza or ribs or cheese or ice cream (the absolute killer) then I don't gain weight. I use to lose by avoiding bad food, not carbs. White flour is in the bad food category. Sugar was not, as long as it was just sugar candies without fat.
I think some of us are different and Atkins is not for everyone. I think we are obese because of the over-processed food, high calories and cheap fats in both packaged food and fast food. That's what put my weight on. I'm a very slow loser and can't seem to change that. My metabolism runs too low and doesn't change very fast. But, I have been a more successful dieter than anyone I know. When I take it off, I keep it off for years without an effort or any regard for what I eat. However, I've truly changed my tastes by the time I've finished. A piece of cheese tastes like a chunk of butter when my taste for fat is not up. I automatically eat better. Then, before I realize it, usually after a holiday period, I begin eating a lot more fast foods and pizza and ribs without realizing how much I've been eating and I'm stuck with a battle to try to keep more from coming on and to get it all off. Why is it so fast to change in that direction and slow to change in the other?
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 27, 2003, at 19:21:57
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:53:25
Hi y'all. I too get breakouts from fish oil, even at 52, and usually on my forehead. I thought it was the extra oil but your posts about the thyroid connection got me thinking. I also get the same kind of zits when my thyroid dose is too high, especially when I take the natural kind with T3. It's always been this way, even before I ever heard of Omega 3's.
Coincidence? I don't think so!
Do you know of any other studies or sites that go into this Omega 3/thyroid receptor theory in detail? This is really exciting stuff for us with challenged thyroids. - BarbaraBTW, those of you with oily skin and zits in your younger years, be grateful. If you can avoid scarring and just put up with the critters, you will be blessed in later life with smooth, healthy and firm skin (as long as you eat good fresh food). At 52, I have no wrinkles, skin is smooth and healthy, hair is shiny. I have a little neck sagging, but that's it and I'll probably get some kind of nip and tuck eventually because the rest of me is looking darn good (the skin, anyway. The pudge can get lost). The occasional zit is no biggie, although I hated them in my youth and thought I'd never get over those awful acne years.
Posted by tealady on August 28, 2003, at 8:54:02
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » tealady, posted by Kacy on August 27, 2003, at 9:47:23
> Tealady: thank you for the questions you answered. I am going to read those sites. I'm also going to have to re-read your letter to get it. In the meantime: what is T3 activity, EPO (evening primrose oil?) , GLA (gamma lin…something acid?)?
EPO=evening primrose oil= GLA =gamma linolinec acid
T3 = one of the thyroid hormones..a(the?) biologically active one...a neurotransmitter ?... probably the original antidepressant..needed for metabolism..important in heart function too.. heart problems develop with too little or too much T3, ...long story of everything t3 does..probably most of body and brain
T3 receptors may become less "blocked" by fish oil..so they begin to function better...if this is what is happening,that is good as depresssion may lessen, weight should be easier to lose, problems that may develop with heart, and many other things may not happen in the future.....
T3 is just ONE possibility, and perhaps I should not have suggested it. ..it was just that it seemed to fit so I suggested it as a possibility.
It could also be a possibility that any of the other receptors are becoming less blocked too...like adrenaline, noradrenaline, dopamine...whatever.
I would imagine that an increase in the adrenaline or noradrenaline? would also cause a faster heart rate...anyone know what happens with any of the other receptors??
I was just trying to read on Effexor it to see what it affected...maybe noradrenaline would be likely what you get too much of with fish oil? I really have no knowledge of this to even make a guess at it...perhaps some others might?It makes NO difference to the suggested treatment..ie. build up very gradually so your body gets used to it. Eat fish instead of the oil etc.
Has anyone else found a drug interaction between fish oil and Effexor?
>On the flatulence: I haven't started walnuts, yet, so I don't know. I guess I'll be getting some today. I never had a problem with that until I took Effexor. (Joking with friends once, I said "I don't make body noises." It was true.No, I remember I never used to either...
>All of a sudden I knew why others had trouble with beans. I'll now have to limit how much I eat of those.) I had a terrible problem until I put flatulence into Google and came up with a serotonin connection. I had been eating frozen pasta dinners (two for one sale at the store) and I read about white pasta and white flour in the intestines. I dropped those dinners and my problem went away.
Ok, so effexor lists "flatulence" as a side effect..so it may not be just the fish oil..it is also processed carbs etc..is this correct?
I'm not completely sure mine is the fish oil..not tested enough t be certain.
I just tried looking at google, but I haven;t found anything about serotonin and flatulence as yet.... what was the connection you found (sorry it's getting late at night and i'm tired)..Won't be on here tomorrow..amalgam removal....I hopeJan
Posted by Kacy on August 28, 2003, at 10:22:47
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3, posted by tealady on August 28, 2003, at 8:54:02
Tealady: I put "flatulence" into Google again to get you the link. All of a sudden, that link wasn't on the first Google page and the links looked a lot different. It was a medical site or medical encyclopedia-type site as I recall. I will keep looking for you. I think I can do that today. Thank you for your thinking and theories on all this.
It was white flour, etc. in the intestines that was the culprit.
I am going to eat the salmon/sardines; I just don't know how much I need to eat. Maybe if I do that for a long period of time, I can get the additional benefits of higher doses of concentrated fish oils later. I'll certainly try fish oil again…but not for months, at the very least.
Posted by Kacy on August 29, 2003, at 13:38:33
In reply to Re: how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 » tealady, posted by Kacy on August 28, 2003, at 10:22:47
Well, I found an answer on salmon and omega 3 per a three ounce serving. It also covers other fish, but not sardines. I'm still looking for that.
I'm not sure how much I was getting in two capsules or how many grams I should shoot for. How many grams a day do some of you take? I'm thinking I will take a weekly amount and divide by three to decide how much to eat three times a week.
The chart is here:
‹a href=http://www.namiscc.org/Recovery/2002/Omega3.htm›Omega 3 chart‹/a›If this didn't make a link, can someone tell me how to make one?
Tealady: I haven't found that link yet. I remember I put 'flatulence' into Google and it was on the first page. Strangely, it was the first link that was not about cats or rabbits. Go figure. When I went back a day or two later and put that into Google, the same page came up again. Now that I see the page of links that come up, I wonder how I could have gotten the page I did. I've been through many Google pages and can't find it. It was a large, health information-type site.
Posted by tealady on August 29, 2003, at 18:48:21
In reply to Re: Chart of omega 3 content in fish, posted by Kacy on August 29, 2003, at 13:38:33
I would assume that sardines would be similar to anchovy...not that I know what an anchovy is. They make fish oil out of anchovies, sardines, salmon ..the "oily type fish". Eating any oily fish will do..just small oily fish are likely to have less other toxins..like mercury. I eat sardines in olive oil. I err on the side of caution and steer clear of soy oil. A tin usually lasts me 3 meals..don't know if I'd want to eat more, sure feels like enough, lol. Just eat the amoun you are comfortable with.
Just checked..my tin says 105g..so that is 35g...and I have NO idesa of what that is in ozs., lol..so I have no idea if near enough....Here's an old link I'd saved
http://www.cfs.purdue.edu/extension/foodsafety/anglingindiana/NutritionalContentofFish/omega3.pdf
says canned sardines per 100g (almost a tin)..have 1.4g of omega3..or 1g DHA+EPA..so looks like every can gives just over 1g (DHA+EPA)...I really think this is probably enough for a week. The amount taken in the link you gave is, IMO, hugeAny side effects from just the fish? How are you going?
Jan
Posted by Kacy on August 31, 2003, at 15:19:22
In reply to Re: Chart of omega 3 content in fish » Kacy, posted by tealady on August 29, 2003, at 18:48:21
Tealady: Thanks for the information. I just started the fish yesterday with some sardines and then had salmon today. Sealed tightly in foil and placed in a steamer, they come out tender and moist. I have 15 six-oz salmon steaks cut up and in the freezer. At three times a week, I guess I'll find out if it causes a problem. I'm not anticipating it. The salmon and the omega 3 oil is supposed to help skin. I found this:
"The Department of Health, through its Committee on the Medical Aspects of Food Policy (COMA) recommendations, advises increasing oily fish consumption as does the British Nutrition Foundation. You may not notice the deficiency now (skin condition is a good indicator - are you sure your skin is as velvety, plump and blemish-free as it could be?), but as you age your body will feel the lack and you will be less able to fend off diseases associated with growing older."
Now I found this and have to check out my supply which I know is farmed fish:
"For those who do eat fish, shop carefully.
Farm-raised fish are less likely to be contaminated by mercury and other poisons than ocean-caught fish, but they may not be as high in omega-3 fatty acids, depending on what they were fed, Willett says. If the fish are fed other fish or algae, they will have a high content of omega-3 fatty acids, he says. But if they are fed wheat and corn, they won't contain as much.
"We need to be monitoring this," he says. "And it may well be that there needs to be a label that gives the omega-3 fatty acid content of farmed fish."
Although I can't find the piece now, when I was researching I read of a two-year study comparing people taking fish oil supplements daily to people eating fish three times a week. At the end of two years, the fish eaters had better whatever-they-measured. In other words, I don't know how they tested them and don't recall how the article described it. I can't believe I didn't copy that off. I'll keep looking.
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