Posted by Larry Hoover on August 27, 2003, at 13:41:07
In reply to Larry Hoover: re how much non-fish-oil Omega 3 , posted by Kacy on August 26, 2003, at 22:43:37
> Hi, Larry. I read all your posts and keep many as notes. I have been trying the suggestions.
>
> So far, I tried fish oil three times. The second time I took it religiously for a month. I could only tolerate two black capsules without noticing my heart pound. I don't have heart problems. I got acne so badly that month I couldn't believe it.I don't quite know what to suggest about these problems, but I'll see what I can find out. I suspect that your response may indicate that you also need to take other fatty acids at the same time (I'm thinking about GLA, gamma-linolenic acid), but there may be something else involved. One of the big issues for me, with regards to nutritional interactions, is that there really isn't a good body of proper scientific information to draw on, other than in regards to treating overt deficiency, or genetic defects.
> It's a problem, anyway. I took zinc and e with it and ate the fish oil with yogurt. The third time, I tried it just to see if it caused the acne. This time I broke out on day two. By four days, I regretted continuing. Two other people on this board posting about fish oil causing acne recently.
I'll keep looking. What about fish itself? Do you react to it?
> I tried flax seed oil and seemed to get acne, too. I am getting ready to try it again. I didn't keep taking it for long and something else may have broken me out.
>
> In the meantime, I'm looking for alternatives. So far, I started having a handful of plain almonds a day. I found the following information on the net. I not sure if these sources are as good as cod liver oil or fish oil. There always seems to be a catch.There is no plant source that is equivalent to fish oil, except for an algae-based source of DHA (which may well be the ultimate source for all fish....little critters eat the algae, little fish eat the little critters, and so on). But this plant product has no EPA (though some will probably be converted by your body).
Plant-source omega-3's are generally in the form of alpha-linolenic acid. That's an eighteen carbon chain, with three unsaturated positions. To make EPA from ALA, the chain must be elongated once, and desaturated twice. Three enzymatic reactions. To get to DHA, there are two elongations, and three desaturations. All this must take place amongst competition from other fatty acids, particularly the omega-6s that we all get far too much of. That's one of the reasons that the omega-6:omega-3 ratio is so important. It's a measure of the competition, as much as it is of supply.
There is recent evidence that males do not convert alpha-linolenic acid to EPA and DHA to any appreciable extent (less than 1% conversion). Females do better (probably genetically able to convert better, to feed the fetus and newborn), but still manage, at best, 12% conversion. The take-home message is, there is no substitute for fish oil, except for an algae-based DHA oil (no EPA), called Neuromins.
> Walnuts: "New studies show that walnuts contain omega-3 fatty acids. Fish are the more familiar source of these beneficial fats, but walnuts contain an omega-3 called alpha linolenic acid (ALA). A high intake of ALA is protective against heart attack. Studies suggest that 2 grams of ALA--the amount in an ounce of walnuts--a day is sufficient to produce these benefits."
>
> "English walnuts are a supersource of omega-3 fatty acid, which is considered the main lifesaving agent in fish. Walnuts have five times more omega-3 than any other nut. Very few plant foods have any at all. Walnuts also are high in antioxidant anti-cancer ellagic acid. "
>
> "The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid:… 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves)."
>
> [Larry: is an ounce of walnuts, then, a good supply compared to the amounts people talk about taking on this board?]That's a decent amount, but the conversion issue still remains unresolved.
> Almonds: "Almonds have the most nutrients per calorie; they are packed with calcium, vitamin E, magnesium, potassium, folic acid, riboflavin and the most fiber of any nut - 3 grams per ounce. Almonds are exceptionally high in vitamin E, which helps thwart artery clogging, boosts immunity and may help prevent cancer. " [Larry - I thought these had Omega 3 but can't find the note, now. I think I've been eating the wrong nuts. Should have been eating walnuts.]
As far as I'm concerned, eating nuts is a good thing all around (so long as they are fresh). Almonds don't have quite the amount of ALA, but they've got more of other essential stuff.
> Brazil nuts: "The large crescent-shaped kernels contain alpha-linolenic acid, which converts to omega-3 fatty acids in the body; it is the omega-3 fatty acids which scientists feel may reduce the risk of heart disease."
>
> "Brazil nuts, a holiday favorite, are the food richest in selenium, a potent antioxidant linked to low rates of cancer and heart disease. If you ate only one Brazil nut a day, you would never be deficient in selenium, says Donald J. Lisk, at Cornell University. Gobbling more than a half-dozen Brazil nuts every day could add up to nausea-causing selenium toxicity, he cautions. "I'm glad you brought up the Brazil nut/selenium link.
> I found this information, below, too. Are the items they mention as good as fish oil or are there better ways?
>
> "Only a few foods are rich in alpha-linolenic acid. In the Lyon study, participants ate a specially prepared canola-oil margarine high in this omega-3. (In the traditional Mediterranean diet, such foods as walnuts and a dark leafy green called purslane supply alpha-linolenic acid.) You can easily match the amount of alpha-linolenic acid the study participants consumed: 1% of total calories, or 2 grams a day, by adding canola oil, soybean oil, flaxseed, or walnuts to your diet. The following servings all supply about 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid: 2 tbsp. canola or soybean oil; 1 tbsp. flaxseed; or 1 ounce walnuts (about 14 walnut halves). But don't go overboard: Some studies suggest that taking in very high amounts of alpha-linolenic acid leads to an increased risk of prostate cancer.The cancer link is probably due to oxidative stress. All polyunsaturates increase oxidative stress, which is why I so frequently mention antioxidant supps.
> "The Supplement Alternative You can also get alpha-linolenic acid by taking flaxseed oil supplements, but it's an expensive way to do so. Four 1,000 mg capsules are needed to get 2 grams of alpha-linolenic acid. A better source may be bottled flaxseed oil (sold in health-food stores--keep it refrigerated), which can be used in place of other vegetable oils in salad dressings or to flavor foods. Many people enjoy the nutty taste of flaxseed oil. One tablespoon has 7.5 grams of alpha-linolenic acid. You can bake with flaxseed oil, but don't use it to fry or saute: It breaks down under very high heat."
>
> Larry: Is a tablespoon of flax oil enough? Can I get the same results making waffles, etc. with any 'ol grocery store canola oil instead of the expensive flax oil?Note that heat destroys omega-3s. You shouldn't consider oils used for cooking as a source for polyunsaturates. There may only be partial destruction, but there will be some. The black stuff that builds up on baking pans is cross-linked (oxidized) unsaturated fatty acids. If you've ever spilled vegetable oil near a hot burner, and not noticed it until later, you'll have found it doesn't wipe up easily (like saturated fat from meat probably would), because it turns readily to varnish.
Flax oil (for human consumption) is the same stuff as linseed oil (used in varnish). DO NOT EAT LINSEED OIL! IT HAS BEEN MADE POISONOUS BY THE PROCESSING THAT MAKES IT A GOOD VARNISH! It's the high PUFA content that turns it into varnish. Oxygen from the air reacts with all the unsaturated fatty acids, forming crosslinks. The fatty acids form a network that hardens. The same thing would happen inside your body, without all the antioxidant defenses in place.
Flax oil is a good source of ALA, but once agian, conversion to EPA and DHA is anything but assured.
> That's not only cheaper, but this is a lot of fat grams to add to my diet when fat makes me gain weight and I could be using it for the oil in my food.Alternating sugar and carbs causes weight gain. Fat is a neutral dietary component. Look at the obesity epidemic, and that's occurring despite all the low-fat foods. Read about Atkins, if you want to understand more about how this all works.
> Also: I started taking these softgel Bluebonnet Tonalin CLA 1000 Safflower Oil 1000 mg. 72% - 82 % Conjugated Linoleic Acid supplements. Other ingredients: Gelatin, glycerin, water, conjugated linoleic acid (Tonalin), fatty acids. Is this the same thing as the stuff above and did I pay a ridiculous price for nothing but safflower oil in gelatin?
Conjugated linoleic acids are natural byproducts of the digestion of ruminant animals (e.g. cows and goats), and we normally obtain them from whole milk and butter. Manmade products (like you bought) are actually more potent than natural versions. They do promote weight loss, and other good things, but don't take a high dose (I think the price will help with that decision).
> Would the same amount of any 'ol safflower oil from the store be the same?
No. Not even close. You're paying a high price because the raw material was highly processed.
> I would appreciate your help on these questions.
>My pleasure.
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:252684
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030823/msgs/254733.html