![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Caleb462 on June 1, 2003, at 0:11:26
Hey Larry. Okay, well tonight I went out and bought some selenium and zinc. I also had my heart set on some niacinamide, but couldn't find it - I'll look some more tommorow.
The zinc is zinc gluconate, and the selenium is selenium yeast. Are these adequate forms of the minerals? I don't want to be taking the zince and selenium equivalents to magnesium oxide, if you know what I mean.
Now, what about dosages? The zinc tabs are 50 mg, the selenium ones are 200 mcg. How much zinc and how much selenium are needed for a benefit in mental/emotional well-being? I already get 15 mg zinc in a daily multi-vitamin, plus 200 mcg selenium, I believe. Will it be safe to add these supplements?
Also, what exactly are the roles of zinc and selenium in the body, and how do they contribute to mental health?
Finally... about vitamin C. I get around 90 mg in my daily multivitamin (can't remember the exact number), 500 mg in my daily B-complex + C, and now, I'll be getting an extra 100 mg that is included in the selenium tabs. Not to mention that I drink a lot of orange juice, and probably get another 50-200 mg of Vit. C from that, depending on the day. Is this too much C? Can it do any harm?
Thanks a bunch, Larry. You are a treasure to this board.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 9:17:28
In reply to Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions, posted by Caleb462 on June 1, 2003, at 0:11:26
> Hey Larry.
Hey.
>Okay, well tonight I went out and bought some selenium and zinc. I also had my heart set on some niacinamide, but couldn't find it - I'll look some more tommorow.
I've occasionally seen it marketed as no-flush niacin, rather than being labelled as niacinamide. No-flush niacin might also be inositol nicotinate, so you have to check the ingredients.
> The zinc is zinc gluconate, and the selenium is selenium yeast. Are these adequate forms of the minerals?
Yes, they're what I use.
>I don't want to be taking the zince and selenium equivalents to magnesium oxide, if you know what I mean.
Absolutely. I hear ya.
> Now, what about dosages? The zinc tabs are 50 mg, the selenium ones are 200 mcg. How much zinc and how much selenium are needed for a benefit in mental/emotional well-being? I already get 15 mg zinc in a daily multi-vitamin, plus 200 mcg selenium, I believe. Will it be safe to add these supplements?You would exceed the tolerable upper limit on zinc if you took one tablet a day, in addition to your multi, but a more cautious dosing would be one additional tablet every other day. I often take 80 mg, but I don't take it every day. You want to look at the "running average" of your intake, over time. Kind of like, how much did I get altogether in the last two weeks, and divide that by 14 to get the average intake. The National Academy of Sciences puts a TDI (tolerable daily intake) at 40 mg/day, but if you really get into the statistics and assumptions (I've spent some major time on this), you'll find that the conclusions are massively biased by an attitude something like, "We have to set the level so low that nobody could ever get hurt by this". The zinc tablets you bought should be illegal or something, if the TDI was valid, wouldn't you think? Every day on the news, you'd be hearing about more "sporadic cases of zinc poisoning", or some such, wouldn't you think? Like I said, the TDI is set at a level that ensures that virtually no one could get hurt, rather than at levels which ensure optimal intake for treatment of special populations. Moreover, intake does not mean the same thing as uptake. If you don't absorb or retain minerals well (I am certain I don't), then intake is the only way to compensate. That's ***my*** reality. You've got to learn how to responsibly assess yourself.
Check the label on your multi. Does it say selenium as selenate or selenite? If so, the selenium in the multi is less useful to you, meaning the effective amount of selenium is much less than the total amount they're claiming.
Selenium is toxic at levels of much greater than 1 gram per day over very long periods of time, leading to a disorder called selenosis. It happens in places in Asia where the water supply is naturally full of selenium, for example. In studies of those people, already overloaded with selenium, their symptoms abated if they could get the selenium intake down below something like 870 micrograms (0.87 grams) per day. So, that's where the tolerable upper intake of selenium of about 400 micrograms/day comes from. I think a one-month trial at 600 micrograms would be safe. You'll be coming at the 870 microgram level from the "other side", ya know?
If you want to read the Academy of Sciences reference books, they're available online at:
http://search.nap.edu/nap-cgi/napsearch.cgi?term=Tolerable+Daily+Intake
Just scroll down the page until you find the nutrient you want to study, and click on it (or the book in which it's listed, which will let you click on the index).
> Also, what exactly are the roles of zinc and selenium in the body, and how do they contribute to mental health?Zinc is primarily a structural component of specialized proteins, like enzymes. Selenium does that as well, but it also has a major function in antioxidant protection (especially in the brain). Zinc has a minor, but not inconsequential, role in the latter context.
Without zinc, no neurotransmitters. Without selenium, no functioning neurons. Gross simplification, but that's the idea.
> Finally... about vitamin C. I get around 90 mg in my daily multivitamin (can't remember the exact number), 500 mg in my daily B-complex + C, and now, I'll be getting an extra 100 mg that is included in the selenium tabs. Not to mention that I drink a lot of orange juice, and probably get another 50-200 mg of Vit. C from that, depending on the day. Is this too much C? Can it do any harm?
No, not too much. Probably still too little. Here, there is no concern about upper intake levels. Vitamin C has no identified toxic effects, except for diarrhea if you take too much all at one time (without letting your body adapt). If you have been taking large amounts for a period of time, sudden reduction of that dose can lead to symptoms of scurvy, because you become dependent on it. There is a balancing act, here.
I'd say a minimum target ought to be 2 grams per day, for all psychiatric populations. Mental illness is stressful, and stress whacks vitamin C, hard. Vitamin C helps protect against stress, so you get a vicious circle if you get behind on your C. I think you get the best effect if you shoot for 2 grams a day, and have brief periods of higher intake. Your body won't become dependent on the higher dose, yet you still get the enhancements.
Just to put vitamin C doses in a perhaps novel context, I was just reading an article yesterday that was suggesting vitamin C as a possible therapy against SARS. There is no therapy, at present. And SARS is a wicked virus, with major long-term systemic effects. Anyway, the suggested therapy involves daily intravenous infusion of 120-180 grams of vitamin C. Some doctors are claiming that they are able to block the development of mononucleosis (Epstein-Barr virus) with timely vitamin C supplementation at 10-20 grams/day.
> Thanks a bunch, Larry. You are a treasure to this board.
Thanks for helping me feel like a treasure.
Lar
Posted by johnj on June 1, 2003, at 11:05:42
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » Caleb462, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 9:17:28
HI Larry,
Well I had to back off the remeron and am down to 15 mg. I just couldn't shake the heavy headed feeling. I did have 4 days of feeling good, but something just wasn't right. I experienced this before so I am not totally suprised. It is almost like a paradoxical feeling.
I made an appointment with the local university at the anixety/depression clinic. I think I will be able to get a good DX since my pdoc really doesn't seem interested in talking with me. I am hoping they have a good pile of references and can point me in a the right direction.
I stared some zinc and selenium today too. Last Friday I was out working and had a big lunch(mexican). About 2 hours later I had a ton of anxiety while driving. The same thing after lunch yesterday that lasted for about 30 minutes and left a knot in my stomach. Then a spaced out feeling after dinner. I did have a blood glucose test over a year ago, but don't think it told much since I had it on an empty stomach in the morning. I am not sure how this is related to depression or anxiety. I can only guess it is blood sugar levels??? Any guesses? Could this explain why working out disrupts my sleep? It is hard to find a doctor that will listen. Usually I get the "hmmm, excercise helps depression" speech and believe me I have tried all kinds of excercise.
You mentioned before that you tried trazadone. I was only looking at it since I would not have much withdrawl(or so I think) if I stopped it. And it may have some AD effect. Has temazepan worked well for you on a long term basis?
I had a suprise call from a friend at my old job of which I left 5 years ago. We kept each other sane and got along so well. I just happened to be at my mom's house and he called. We got to talking and he said he started paxil 1 year ago due to anxiety. We are very much alike. He called to see how I was doing. He doesn't know I was on meds at the time when we worked together. I was in remission at the time and had few problems for 5 years or so. He said the paxil has helped him a great amount and he takes 10 mg, a very low dose. I found it very strange since I had just made the appointment at the univeristy and out the blue here comes this call. We hadn't talked in two years. He said paxil has taken the edge off and he doesn't feel overwhelmed anymore. He sounded very good. To be honest, I am scared of the ssri's. I only tried lexapro for a few days and didn't care for it. Have you ever tried paxil. Anxiety is my #1 issue which leads to depression. I don't know how different paxil is than benzo's. I was hoping for cymbalta to try, but I am not sure how much longer I can wait. I am not so bad if I get out of bed but the last two days I have laid around til 9 or longer. I am really looking forward to the clinic an getting started on something to help me mold my thoughts in more tune with reality. Thanks a bunch Larry. I look forward to your thoughts on CBT. Hope things are going well for you.
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 12:22:55
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on June 1, 2003, at 11:05:42
> HI Larry,
>
> Well I had to back off the remeron and am down to 15 mg. I just couldn't shake the heavy headed feeling. I did have 4 days of feeling good, but something just wasn't right. I experienced this before so I am not totally suprised. It is almost like a paradoxical feeling.I thought 15 mg was way too sedating for most people....
> I made an appointment with the local university at the anixety/depression clinic. I think I will be able to get a good DX since my pdoc really doesn't seem interested in talking with me. I am hoping they have a good pile of references and can point me in a the right direction.
One of things I bet they'll offer you is group therapy. I hope you take them up on the offer if it comes. Groups let you talk coping strategies with people who really understand what it's like, those with similar diagnoses.
> I stared some zinc and selenium today too. Last Friday I was out working and had a big lunch(mexican). About 2 hours later I had a ton of anxiety while driving. The same thing after lunch yesterday that lasted for about 30 minutes and left a knot in my stomach. Then a spaced out feeling after dinner. I did have a blood glucose test over a year ago, but don't think it told much since I had it on an empty stomach in the morning. I am not sure how this is related to depression or anxiety. I can only guess it is blood sugar levels??? Any guesses?
How about glutamate sensitivity?
MSG is everywhere, added to foods you wouldn't expect it in. Unless you prepare foods totally from scratch, you're probably exposed to it.
Usually, it's hidden on the ingredient list, under disguised names like "natural flavour".
> Could this explain why working out disrupts my sleep?
That's likely got more to do with endorphins and hormones, in my opinion. Don't work out past noon, and see if that makes a difference.
> It is hard to find a doctor that will listen. Usually I get the "hmmm, excercise helps depression" speech and believe me I have tried all kinds of excercise.
Doctors, like members of any profession, tend to be highly informed about the narrow parameters of their professional focus, yet strangely devoid of the ability to link those ideas to other philosophies not intimately linked to their own. Just as you wouldn't hire a carpenter to fix your plumbing, you may want to consider other sorts of practitioners than those with an M.D. Naturopathy comes to mind.
> You mentioned before that you tried trazadone. I was only looking at it since I would not have much withdrawl(or so I think) if I stopped it. And it may have some AD effect. Has temazepan worked well for you on a long term basis?Temazepam continues to work for me, after nearly three years? I'm guessing at the duration. I don't make note of things like that.
Trazodone gives me a massive hangover effect. It doesn't wear off in the course of the night-time. Your experience may differ. I had no obvious antidepressant effect, even when it was prescribed in high doses as an antidepressant.
> I had a suprise call from a friend at my old job of which I left 5 years ago. We kept each other sane and got along so well. I just happened to be at my mom's house and he called. We got to talking and he said he started paxil 1 year ago due to anxiety. We are very much alike. He called to see how I was doing. He doesn't know I was on meds at the time when we worked together. I was in remission at the time and had few problems for 5 years or so. He said the paxil has helped him a great amount and he takes 10 mg, a very low dose. I found it very strange since I had just made the appointment at the univeristy and out the blue here comes this call. We hadn't talked in two years. He said paxil has taken the edge off and he doesn't feel overwhelmed anymore. He sounded very good. To be honest, I am scared of the ssri's. I only tried lexapro for a few days and didn't care for it. Have you ever tried paxil.Yes. It gave me akathisia and insomnia. It may be coincidence, but I never had problems sleeping before I used SSRIs.
> Anxiety is my #1 issue which leads to depression. I don't know how different paxil is than benzo's. I was hoping for cymbalta to try, but I am not sure how much longer I can wait. I am not so bad if I get out of bed but the last two days I have laid around til 9 or longer. I am really looking forward to the clinic an getting started on something to help me mold my thoughts in more tune with reality.
That's a major coping strategy you're considering. Good for you.
> Thanks a bunch Larry. I look forward to your thoughts on CBT.
Well, I gave a big blurb in the magnesium thread, but Dr. Bob redirected that to Psychological Babble.
I believe very strongly that anyone, absolutely anyone, can benefit from CBT.
>Hope things are going well for you.
> johnjYep, they are, thanks. My recent successes permit me to consider the idea of going off my disability pensions altogether. My income frequently makes me temporarily ineligible for benefits, but I'm talking about ending it altogether.
That's a decision for the future, but the very fact that it occurs to me to weight the evidence leaves me feeling very optimistic.
Lar
Posted by johnj on June 1, 2003, at 18:16:13
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 12:22:55
I really don't know much about glutamate to be honest, except MSG. I know they were mentioned on Eby's website but how to know what foods they are in I am not sure.
Yes, 15 mg is supposed to be more sedating, but what I feel is a pressure release from behind the forehead and I think that is directly related to the dose???? However, the lower I go I kind of start to feel more depressed.
I was at the library today and found a book that talked about various drugs and it had temazepan as being recommended for insomnia. I would rather reduce my tranzene and add that, but I may try trazadone to see what effect it has on me.
I don't need anything that adds to my insomnia that is why I am afraid of ssri's. It is hard to tell if I would benefit from paxil or not. I just hate the "try it and see" what happens approach with drugs. But, it could work great. It actually helps my friend sleep. Strange how those drugs work. Lexapro made me a zombie in one small dose.
Thanks for everything and good to hear you have progressed to the state that you may go off disability. I sometimes think that is where I am headed (that's why the need for CBT!)
Larry, I have followed the TMG, enada thread and wonder what type of TMG should I get? I have the tendency to get irritable so I am not sure if I should try it at all. I saw that some TMG is made from sugar beets? What would you suggest would be a starting dose? Enada I would probably go with a 2.5 mg and see what happens. Thank you
johnj
Posted by Caleb462 on June 1, 2003, at 18:23:42
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » Caleb462, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 9:17:28
> > Hey Larry.
>
> Hey.
>
> >Okay, well tonight I went out and bought some selenium and zinc. I also had my heart set on some niacinamide, but couldn't find it - I'll look some more tommorow.
>
> I've occasionally seen it marketed as no-flush niacin, rather than being labelled as niacinamide. No-flush niacin might also be inositol nicotinate, so you have to check the ingredients.Yeah, well actually the only niacin I could find was inositol nicotinate (although I thought it was hex-something or other??), labeled as "no-flush niacin".
>
> > The zinc is zinc gluconate, and the selenium is selenium yeast. Are these adequate forms of the minerals?
>
> Yes, they're what I use.
>>
> Check the label on your multi. Does it say selenium as selenate or selenite? If so, the selenium in the multi is less useful to you, meaning the effective amount of selenium is much less than the total amount they're claiming.Aha... I see.. ok, thanks.
>
> > Finally... about vitamin C. I get around 90 mg in my daily multivitamin (can't remember the exact number), 500 mg in my daily B-complex + C, and now, I'll be getting an extra 100 mg that is included in the selenium tabs. Not to mention that I drink a lot of orange juice, and probably get another 50-200 mg of Vit. C from that, depending on the day. Is this too much C? Can it do any harm?
>
> No, not too much. Probably still too little. Here, there is no concern about upper intake levels. Vitamin C has no identified toxic effects, except for diarrhea if you take too much all at one time (without letting your body adapt). If you have been taking large amounts for a period of time, sudden reduction of that dose can lead to symptoms of scurvy, because you become dependent on it. There is a balancing act, here.
>
> I'd say a minimum target ought to be 2 grams per day, for all psychiatric populations. Mental illness is stressful, and stress whacks vitamin C, hard. Vitamin C helps protect against stress, so you get a vicious circle if you get behind on your C. I think you get the best effect if you shoot for 2 grams a day, and have brief periods of higher intake. Your body won't become dependent on the higher dose, yet you still get the enhancements.
>I see... okay. Well... I have no idea if this is true or not, but I have read/heard that cigarette smoke destroys Vitamin C. I'm a smoker (I'd like to stop, but adding nicotine withdrawl into my already fragile mental/emotional state is not an option right now), does this mean I may need even MORE vitamin C than 2 grams?
And one more thing... since I've begun taking supplements, well... my B-complex in particular, my urine has become brightly colored. Obviously this reflects urinary loss of vitamins. Is this a natural and unavoidable thing? I always take them with a meal, so as to assure maximal absorption, but is there something else I need to be doing?Thanks again.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 20:23:11
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions, posted by Caleb462 on June 1, 2003, at 18:23:42
> > I've occasionally seen it marketed as no-flush niacin, rather than being labelled as niacinamide. No-flush niacin might also be inositol nicotinate, so you have to check the ingredients.
>
> Yeah, well actually the only niacin I could find was inositol nicotinate (although I thought it was hex-something or other??), labeled as "no-flush niacin".I had a brain fart. Inositol hexanicotinate is the proper name.
> > I'd say a minimum target ought to be 2 grams per day, for all psychiatric populations. Mental illness is stressful, and stress whacks vitamin C, hard. Vitamin C helps protect against stress, so you get a vicious circle if you get behind on your C. I think you get the best effect if you shoot for 2 grams a day, and have brief periods of higher intake. Your body won't become dependent on the higher dose, yet you still get the enhancements.
> >
>
> I see... okay. Well... I have no idea if this is true or not, but I have read/heard that cigarette smoke destroys Vitamin C. I'm a smoker (I'd like to stop, but adding nicotine withdrawl into my already fragile mental/emotional state is not an option right now), does this mean I may need even MORE vitamin C than 2 grams?2 grams should cover everything.
> And one more thing... since I've begun taking supplements, well... my B-complex in particular, my urine has become brightly colored. Obviously this reflects urinary loss of vitamins. Is this a natural and unavoidable thing? I always take them with a meal, so as to assure maximal absorption, but is there something else I need to be doing?
>
> Thanks again.The bright coloration of the urine is from B-2 (riboflavin). You're not doing anything wrong, and it's quite natural.
Here's how it works. Your body is separated into different tissues, sometimes called compartments. The main separations between the compartments are membranes, e.g. the blood-brain barrier. When you ingest the vitamins, they're really outside the body still, even when they're in the gut, because you're really organized like a tube. The vitamins cross a membrane (the gut lining), and pass into the blood, what you might think of as the transport compartment. All the other compartments, like bone, skin, skeletal muscle, the central nervous system, and so on, derive their raw materials by being exposed to what the blood carries past their membranes. So, for an organ or tissue to get a nutrient, it has to be in the blood, at a concentration that will promote uptake across the membrane separating it from the blood. Your kidneys are no different. When they're exposed to the same substances in high concentrations, they take it across their membranes, and pass it out of the body in the urine. It's the same large increase in concentration that lets you feed your various organs and tissues in their various compartments that lets your kidneys prove your blood had good stuff in it by passing it into the urine. Some would argue that vitamin pills just make expensive urine, but before that can happen, all your other tissues are getting a crack at the good stuff. That's what you want, a flood of good stuff in the blood, so you can feed your tissues before the kidneys remove what's left over.
That's why you need some intake of water-soluble vitamins every day. You don't store the excess, you excrete it in urine. Until you ingest some more, your body has to do without.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 20:43:41
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on June 1, 2003, at 18:16:13
> I really don't know much about glutamate to be honest, except MSG. I know they were mentioned on Eby's website but how to know what foods they are in I am not sure.
Virtually anything that's processed by the food industry, it seems to me. Here's a partial listing:
enzyme modified (anything), anything fermented, anything protein fortified, anything ultra pasteurized, autolyzed yeast, barley malt, broth, bouillon, calcium caseinate, carrageen, flavoring, natural flavoring, gelatin, hydrolyzed oat/wheat/barley flour, hydrolyzed vegetable, hydrolyzed (anything) protein, malt extract, maltodextrin, natural flavors, pectin, plant protein extract, potassium glutamate, sodium caseinate, soy protein, soy sauce, stock, textured protein, whey protein, yeast extract, yeast food.
>
> Yes, 15 mg is supposed to be more sedating, but what I feel is a pressure release from behind the forehead and I think that is directly related to the dose???? However, the lower I go I kind of start to feel more depressed.That doesn't sound like it's helping, then.
> I was at the library today and found a book that talked about various drugs and it had temazepan as being recommended for insomnia. I would rather reduce my tranzene and add that, but I may try trazadone to see what effect it has on me.
Temazepam is marketed under the brand name Restoril (among others), because it promotes restorative sleep. If you're not waking rested, you have no idea just how important a change that can be. Temazepam promotes different stages of sleep that are responsible for this restorative component. If you want to read about that, do a search on temazepam and the phrase "sleep architecture".
> I don't need anything that adds to my insomnia that is why I am afraid of ssri's. It is hard to tell if I would benefit from paxil or not. I just hate the "try it and see" what happens approach with drugs. But, it could work great. It actually helps my friend sleep. Strange how those drugs work. Lexapro made me a zombie in one small dose.There is no other way to know, I'm afraid.
> Thanks for everything and good to hear you have progressed to the state that you may go off disability. I sometimes think that is where I am headed (that's why the need for CBT!)Just keep aiming towards wellness. It might be a slow road, but I think there is a road (to wellness).
> Larry, I have followed the TMG, enada thread and wonder what type of TMG should I get?I'm not sure what you're asking. TMG is also known as anhydrous betaine, or betaine freebase. You don't want betaine hydrochloride.
>I have the tendency to get irritable so I am not sure if I should try it at all. I saw that some TMG is made from sugar beets?
The name betaine means "amine from beets". Beta is latin for beet. It's a byproduct of sugar beet processing, although there may well be other sources.
>What would you suggest would be a starting dose?
I'd start with 500 mg, though Ron Hill would probably suggest 250. Use it in the morning, in case it stimulates you. You don't want to make your insomnia worse.
> Enada I would probably go with a 2.5 mg and see what happens. Thank you
>
> johnjI'm with you, buddy.
Lar
Posted by johnj on June 2, 2003, at 13:26:19
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 20:43:41
Hi Larry,
<enzyme modified (anything), anything fermented, anything protein fortified, anything ultra pasteurized, autolyzed yeast, barley malt, broth, bouillon, calcium caseinate, carrageen, flavoring, natural flavoring, gelatin, hydrolyzed oat/wheat/barley flour, hydrolyzed vegetable, hydrolyzed (anything) protein, malt extract, maltodextrin, natural flavors, pectin, plant protein extract, potassium glutamate, sodium caseinate, soy protein, soy sauce, stock, textured protein, whey protein, yeast extract, yeast food. >
Larry, maybe I should ask what can I eat? LOL
Just kidding. But one thing caught my eye. I have always felt unwell when I eat soy and whey protein. I thought it was in my head?Is there a test to see if one is allergic per se like with gluten?
I went on to the website of the Pfeiffer Institute and found one thing very interesting. The mention of choline and inoistol as potentially harful for two types of depression and if you are of the Pyroluri subtype omega 3's might be harmful. I get very spaced on cod liver oil. I have had two bad experiences with all of these compounds. Soy Lecithin disturbed my sleep as it also did with my brother(PTSD, but no meds)
If a person takes zinc do you have to be careful of copper depletion?
Do you think a hair analysis shows anything?
Primrose oil was listed as benefical and I am interested. I need to see what this does. How much extra B-6 can a person take and is it ok to take it alone?
As always...THANK YOU and I am glad to hear you haven't crashed. Sounds like you have a good combo going. Do you have an institute like Pfeiffer in Canada? Happy Monday to you
Johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 15:25:40
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on June 2, 2003, at 13:26:19
> Hi Larry,
>
> <enzyme modified (anything), anything fermented, anything protein fortified, anything ultra pasteurized, autolyzed yeast, barley malt, broth, bouillon, calcium caseinate, carrageen, flavoring, natural flavoring, gelatin, hydrolyzed oat/wheat/barley flour, hydrolyzed vegetable, hydrolyzed (anything) protein, malt extract, maltodextrin, natural flavors, pectin, plant protein extract, potassium glutamate, sodium caseinate, soy protein, soy sauce, stock, textured protein, whey protein, yeast extract, yeast food. >
>
> Larry, maybe I should ask what can I eat? LOL
> Just kidding. But one thing caught my eye. I have always felt unwell when I eat soy and whey protein. I thought it was in my head?Glutamate sensitivity is quite commonplace.
Cook from scratch, read labels. That's about all you can do.
One of my favourites in the ingredient list is "modified milk ingredients". Now, WTF is that?
> Is there a test to see if one is allergic per se like with gluten?
The only one I know is a challenge test. Get some MSG, and eat it. I don't know the dose, though. I'd have to look it up.
It's not an allergy, per se. It's your body's signalling system being hijacked by a dose of a signalling compound not normally found in that concentration in any food.
> I went on to the website of the Pfeiffer Institute and found one thing very interesting. The mention of choline and inoistol as potentially harful for two types of depression and if you are of the Pyroluri subtype omega 3's might be harmful. I get very spaced on cod liver oil. I have had two bad experiences with all of these compounds. Soy Lecithin disturbed my sleep as it also did with my brother(PTSD, but no meds)
Your reaction is more important than reading about it, ya know? Maybe their list of recommended substances and those to avoid will help you plan your next step, but you still have to test it out.
> If a person takes zinc do you have to be careful of copper depletion?Yes. Zinc blocks copper uptake. Zinc for five days, copper for two, would absolutely cover it. But, with the high number of homes with copper pipes, I don't know whether supplemental copper is necessary. I'll come back to you on that.
> Do you think a hair analysis shows anything?I haven't made up my mind on that, whether it's substantial evidence of anything, all on its own.
> Primrose oil was listed as benefical and I am interested. I need to see what this does.Primrose, borage, and blackcurrant seed oil, all have good concentrations of gamma-linolenic acid. It has anti-inflammatory effects, particularly if the diet is already well supplied with fish oil or flax oil.
>How much extra B-6 can a person take and is it ok to take it alone?
If you also take a B-complex, you can probably use as much as you want (within reason). B-6 neuropathy occurs only if you're taking grams of it every day, for a long time, years.
> As always...THANK YOU and I am glad to hear you haven't crashed. Sounds like you have a good combo going. Do you have an institute like Pfeiffer in Canada? Happy Monday to you
>
> JohnjIf there is a Pfeiffer-style place around, I couldn't afford it. I'm my own Pfeiffer, I guess.
Fingers crossed on the anti-crash program.
Take care,
Lar
Posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 21:39:58
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on June 1, 2003, at 18:16:13
"but what I feel is a pressure release from behind the forehead"
>>>>>john, I feel that EXACT same forehead pressure from Remeron...like my forehead is being 'crunched' in.
Posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 22:24:11
In reply to Re: Larry, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 15:25:40
I went on to the website of the Pfeiffer Institute and found one thing very interesting. The mention of choline and inoistol as potentially harmful for two types of depression
>>>>Pfeiffer has me on inositol (hard to say the effect though)
and if you are of the Pyroluri subtype omega 3's might be harmful. I get very spaced on cod liver oil.
>>>>>>>>>>>This is VERY interesting to me!!! I have noticed that ever since I started taking fish oil that I have been in 'space' so much that I should be an astronaut! This REALLY makes me wonder....Lar, have you come across anything regarding fish oil causing spaciness/"brain fog"?
> If a person takes zinc do you have to be careful of copper depletion?Yes. Zinc blocks copper uptake. Zinc for five days, copper for two, would absolutely cover it. But, with the high number of homes with copper pipes, I don't know whether supplemental copper is necessary. I'll come back to you on that.
>>>>>>>>>Lar, I tested VERY high for copper (ceruloplasmin levels....33% free copper, whereas Pfeiffer told me that they like to see it under 10% in people). When I looked up Copper Toxicity on-line and read the effects of it, I have to say that it was DEAD-ON as to so many of my problems. I was zinc deficient also. Anyway, I've been on Zinc supp's daily for about 6 months now (85 mg/day) with NO copper supplementation (NO copper supp's but I get it in food obviously)
If there is a Pfeiffer-style place around, I couldn't afford it. I'm my own Pfeiffer, I guess.
>>>>>>John/Lar---Pfeiffer has a 'charitable fund' and someone can get a LARGE portion of their initial visit paid for IF FUNDS ARE AVAILABLE and IF you qualify, fwiw....you may be able to go there for cheaper than you think
Fingers crossed on the anti-crash program.
>>>>>>>Lar, is the 'crashing' you get strictly exhaustion/fatigue? or is it more depression? Take care!
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2003, at 8:16:26
In reply to Larry/John, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions, posted by McPac on June 2, 2003, at 22:24:11
> I went on to the website of the Pfeiffer Institute and found one thing very interesting. The mention of choline and inoistol as potentially harmful for two types of depression
>
> >>>>Pfeiffer has me on inositol (hard to say the effect though)
>
> and if you are of the Pyroluri subtype omega 3's might be harmful. I get very spaced on cod liver oil.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>This is VERY interesting to me!!! I have noticed that ever since I started taking fish oil that I have been in 'space' so much that I should be an astronaut! This REALLY makes me wonder....Lar, have you come across anything regarding fish oil causing spaciness/"brain fog"?Seems far better than anxiety, non? It could be a temporary dampening of some neurotransmitter effects, or it could be long term. Rather than worrying about that result (which seems pretty anti-stress), I'd be looking to sharpen my thinking....NADH, TMG, DLPA do it for me.
> > If a person takes zinc do you have to be careful of copper depletion?
>
> Yes. Zinc blocks copper uptake. Zinc for five days, copper for two, would absolutely cover it. But, with the high number of homes with copper pipes, I don't know whether supplemental copper is necessary. I'll come back to you on that.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Lar, I tested VERY high for copper (ceruloplasmin levels....33% free copper, whereas Pfeiffer told me that they like to see it under 10% in people). When I looked up Copper Toxicity on-line and read the effects of it, I have to say that it was DEAD-ON as to so many of my problems. I was zinc deficient also.That goes together, absolutely. Zinc supply is really the controlling variable. I really don't think low copper can be a problem, unless you never take a zinc holiday.
>Anyway, I've been on Zinc supp's daily for about 6 months now (85 mg/day) with NO copper supplementation (NO copper supp's but I get it in food obviously)
Make sure you get retested when you go back to Pfeiffer.
> If there is a Pfeiffer-style place around, I couldn't afford it. I'm my own Pfeiffer, I guess.
>
> >>>>>>John/Lar---Pfeiffer has a 'charitable fund' and someone can get a LARGE portion of their initial visit paid for IF FUNDS ARE AVAILABLE and IF you qualify, fwiw....you may be able to go there for cheaper than you thinkTravel and accomodation cost alone make it prohibitive.
> Fingers crossed on the anti-crash program.
>
> >>>>>>>Lar, is the 'crashing' you get strictly exhaustion/fatigue? or is it more depression? Take care!This requires a little explaining. I was first diagnosed with chronic fatigue in 1990. I was so bad, I couldn't walk to the mailbox at the end of the drive (65 feet), without resting along the way.
When I had my massive depressive thing hit in 1996, all the symptoms I experienced were (reasonably, I guess) attributed to depression. Massive fatigue, low tolerance for exertion, blah blah. For years, that was a big part of my struggle, and we never found meds that helped with all my symptoms, or that I could even tolerate. (St. John's wort was really cool for a while, but that's another story.)
Because the meds didn't solve my problems, I started looking at nutrition. I already knew there was something amiss there.....I hypothesized a sub-clinical malabsorption syndrome as a major factor in my health problems.
Over time, I pretty much stabilized my mood with nutritional support. But the fatigue/low exertion threshold was still a problem. So, this wasn't really a part of the depression after all, but a comorbid syndrome. And CFS seems to cover it. Now, CFS can remit and relapse. And the symptoms don't have to be exactly the same with each relapse. It serves as a good model for treatment considerations, in any case. The problem with CFS is the excessive fatigue "rebound" following exertion.
One of the treatment models I use includes a metaphorical "fingers of the hand" exertion/rest schedule. For each period of exertion (the finger), you need an equivalent period of rest (the space between the fingers). It may seem counter-intuitive to promote exertion at all, given the rebound phenomenon, but the desire is to increase tolerance to exertion over an extended time course.
So, when I first thought myself able to try some work, I managed one or two or three days scattered over a one month period. Later, I tried two or three consecutive days, and scattered singles. Later, a full week. My rest periods were sometimes quite lengthy, particularly if I had over-estimated my tolerance. I came up with a ratio: for every day I worked past my tolerance for work, I required an extra ten days rest. So, I had to be careful.
For the last year and a half, I've been doing a one month on, one month off pattern, but I seldom fill up the entire month on. The last two work periods, I did fill it up. 60-70 hour weeks, four weeks straight. And with the NADH no collapse.
My symptoms during the crash are massive fatigue, apathy, cognitive decline, poor memory, headaches, irritability, some mood decline. It's a gradual fall, each day worse than the previous one, over perhaps twenty days, then a much more rapid recovery rate, over a week. That pattern has existed for a very long time. To have a new pattern appear makes me cautiously optimistic.
Lar
Posted by McPac on June 3, 2003, at 16:01:05
In reply to Re: Larry/John, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2003, at 8:16:26
(nm)
Posted by samplemethod on June 4, 2003, at 0:22:20
In reply to Re: Larry/John, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2003, at 8:16:26
Let me say I think I have over done it on the zinc, (or it could be my mag tabs, or my vit e caps)
Anyway, Im thinking it must be that I have taken to much zinc, cos when I take these 3 supps,( and basically these are the only ones Ive been taking recently), I get a really foggy head, with pressure in my temples and frontal brain, and over I tell you I dont feel good and pretty tired too. It might also be the aspartate form of mag i have in my mag aspartate, mag glycinate mixture.
But I just wanna know if anyone has these symptoms when they take too much of one of these supps i mention above.
> > I went on to the website of the Pfeiffer Institute and found one thing very interesting. The mention of choline and inoistol as potentially harmful for two types of depression
> >
> > >>>>Pfeiffer has me on inositol (hard to say the effect though)
> >
> > and if you are of the Pyroluri subtype omega 3's might be harmful. I get very spaced on cod liver oil.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>>This is VERY interesting to me!!! I have noticed that ever since I started taking fish oil that I have been in 'space' so much that I should be an astronaut! This REALLY makes me wonder....Lar, have you come across anything regarding fish oil causing spaciness/"brain fog"?
>
> Seems far better than anxiety, non? It could be a temporary dampening of some neurotransmitter effects, or it could be long term. Rather than worrying about that result (which seems pretty anti-stress), I'd be looking to sharpen my thinking....NADH, TMG, DLPA do it for me.
>
> > > If a person takes zinc do you have to be careful of copper depletion?
> >
> > Yes. Zinc blocks copper uptake. Zinc for five days, copper for two, would absolutely cover it. But, with the high number of homes with copper pipes, I don't know whether supplemental copper is necessary. I'll come back to you on that.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>Lar, I tested VERY high for copper (ceruloplasmin levels....33% free copper, whereas Pfeiffer told me that they like to see it under 10% in people). When I looked up Copper Toxicity on-line and read the effects of it, I have to say that it was DEAD-ON as to so many of my problems. I was zinc deficient also.
>
> That goes together, absolutely. Zinc supply is really the controlling variable. I really don't think low copper can be a problem, unless you never take a zinc holiday.
>
> >Anyway, I've been on Zinc supp's daily for about 6 months now (85 mg/day) with NO copper supplementation (NO copper supp's but I get it in food obviously)
>
> Make sure you get retested when you go back to Pfeiffer.
>
> > If there is a Pfeiffer-style place around, I couldn't afford it. I'm my own Pfeiffer, I guess.
> >
> > >>>>>>John/Lar---Pfeiffer has a 'charitable fund' and someone can get a LARGE portion of their initial visit paid for IF FUNDS ARE AVAILABLE and IF you qualify, fwiw....you may be able to go there for cheaper than you think
>
> Travel and accomodation cost alone make it prohibitive.
>
> > Fingers crossed on the anti-crash program.
> >
> > >>>>>>>Lar, is the 'crashing' you get strictly exhaustion/fatigue? or is it more depression? Take care!
>
> This requires a little explaining. I was first diagnosed with chronic fatigue in 1990. I was so bad, I couldn't walk to the mailbox at the end of the drive (65 feet), without resting along the way.
>
> When I had my massive depressive thing hit in 1996, all the symptoms I experienced were (reasonably, I guess) attributed to depression. Massive fatigue, low tolerance for exertion, blah blah. For years, that was a big part of my struggle, and we never found meds that helped with all my symptoms, or that I could even tolerate. (St. John's wort was really cool for a while, but that's another story.)
>
> Because the meds didn't solve my problems, I started looking at nutrition. I already knew there was something amiss there.....I hypothesized a sub-clinical malabsorption syndrome as a major factor in my health problems.
>
> Over time, I pretty much stabilized my mood with nutritional support. But the fatigue/low exertion threshold was still a problem. So, this wasn't really a part of the depression after all, but a comorbid syndrome. And CFS seems to cover it. Now, CFS can remit and relapse. And the symptoms don't have to be exactly the same with each relapse. It serves as a good model for treatment considerations, in any case. The problem with CFS is the excessive fatigue "rebound" following exertion.
>
> One of the treatment models I use includes a metaphorical "fingers of the hand" exertion/rest schedule. For each period of exertion (the finger), you need an equivalent period of rest (the space between the fingers). It may seem counter-intuitive to promote exertion at all, given the rebound phenomenon, but the desire is to increase tolerance to exertion over an extended time course.
>
> So, when I first thought myself able to try some work, I managed one or two or three days scattered over a one month period. Later, I tried two or three consecutive days, and scattered singles. Later, a full week. My rest periods were sometimes quite lengthy, particularly if I had over-estimated my tolerance. I came up with a ratio: for every day I worked past my tolerance for work, I required an extra ten days rest. So, I had to be careful.
>
> For the last year and a half, I've been doing a one month on, one month off pattern, but I seldom fill up the entire month on. The last two work periods, I did fill it up. 60-70 hour weeks, four weeks straight. And with the NADH no collapse.
>
> My symptoms during the crash are massive fatigue, apathy, cognitive decline, poor memory, headaches, irritability, some mood decline. It's a gradual fall, each day worse than the previous one, over perhaps twenty days, then a much more rapid recovery rate, over a week. That pattern has existed for a very long time. To have a new pattern appear makes me cautiously optimistic.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2003, at 10:14:46
In reply to Re: Zinc/Magnesium/Vitamin E argghhhhhh!!yukk, posted by samplemethod on June 4, 2003, at 0:22:20
> But I just wanna know if anyone has these symptoms when they take too much of one of these supps i mention above.
I get that from too much magnesium.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2003, at 10:25:16
In reply to Re: Larry/John, Zinc/Selenium/Vitamin C questions » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 3, 2003, at 8:16:26
> > >>>>>>>>>Lar, I tested VERY high for copper (ceruloplasmin levels....33% free copper, whereas Pfeiffer told me that they like to see it under 10% in people). When I looked up Copper Toxicity on-line and read the effects of it, I have to say that it was DEAD-ON as to so many of my problems. I was zinc deficient also.
>
> That goes together, absolutely. Zinc supply is really the controlling variable. I really don't think low copper can be a problem, unless you never take a zinc holiday.
>
> >Anyway, I've been on Zinc supp's daily for about 6 months now (85 mg/day) with NO copper supplementation (NO copper supp's but I get it in food obviously)
>
> Make sure you get retested when you go back to Pfeiffer.I was looking at copper intake from food, and interactions with zinc, and the oft-repeated advice that zinc supps will block copper seems to be (once again) misinterpretation or hyperbole or whatever. Only if your zinc intake massively exceeds your copper intake will this occur. In fact, huge amounts of zinc are sometimes used to control copper intake in Wilson's disease, a hereditary inability to regulate copper (kind of the copper equivalent of hemachromatosis (iron)).
It seems that the recommended intake of copper (about 1 mg/day) is easily met by a non-supplemented diet.
So, I go and take a look at drinking water vis a vis copper plumbing, and I come across references to drinking water found to contain e.g. 8 grams/litre of copper. I didn't follow up to see how common/uncommon that concentration might be, but if you've got copper plumbing where you live, and you drink the water that's been standing in your copper pipes for hours on end, I don't think you need to worry about copper deficiency! At 8 grams/litre you'd meet the total daily intake from half a cup of water (4 oz.).
So, I hereby retract my earlier comment that you might need a zinc holiday to ensure adequate copper intake. I don't think it's an issue. If anything, I'm a little concerned about excessive intake.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2003, at 11:06:59
In reply to Re: about copper, posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2003, at 10:25:16
> So, I go and take a look at drinking water vis a vis copper plumbing, and I come across references to drinking water found to contain e.g. 8 grams/litre of copper. I didn't follow up to see how common/uncommon that concentration might be, but if you've got copper plumbing where you live, and you drink the water that's been standing in your copper pipes for hours on end, I don't think you need to worry about copper deficiency! At 8 grams/litre you'd meet the total daily intake from half a cup of water (4 oz.).
>
> So, I hereby retract my earlier comment that you might need a zinc holiday to ensure adequate copper intake. I don't think it's an issue. If anything, I'm a little concerned about excessive intake.
>
> LarHere's what I needed..... The modal (most commonly found) copper concentration in cold water (what about hot?) standing in copper plumbing for six hours, is 2 mg/litre. It could be much higher than that, in your home. The taste threshold is about 6 gr/litre. If your water tastes "stale" unless you run the tap, this might be why.
Here's a nice graph of copper levels in drinking water:
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309069394/html/139.html#pagetop
Lar
P.S. I'm throwing my copper supps out (I don't use them, anyway).
Posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 15:36:14
In reply to Re: about copper, posted by Larry Hoover on June 4, 2003, at 10:25:16
I was reading on-line about possible sources of copper and where I could have obtained so much copper from (my levels were about 3 1/2 times too high! 33%/10% per Pfeiffer's 'standards')
One source could be prescription meds (?) since I've always taken those. The other (most likely)source that I was thinking was from drinking water. Pfeiffer told me to only drink bottled water (most of the time now I do drink bottled water but not always). I REALLY can't emphasize enough how strikingly similar the copper toxicity symptoms were to my symptoms. I can't say for sure that that was a big cause of my problems but I have noticed differences since starting Pfeiffer's plan (whether or not lowering my copper level has been a 'key' or not I'm not sure).
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2003, at 17:10:07
In reply to Lar, Re: about copper, posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 15:36:14
> I was reading on-line about possible sources of copper and where I could have obtained so much copper from (my levels were about 3 1/2 times too high! 33%/10% per Pfeiffer's 'standards')
> One source could be prescription meds (?) since I've always taken those. The other (most likely)source that I was thinking was from drinking water. Pfeiffer told me to only drink bottled water (most of the time now I do drink bottled water but not always). I REALLY can't emphasize enough how strikingly similar the copper toxicity symptoms were to my symptoms. I can't say for sure that that was a big cause of my problems but I have noticed differences since starting Pfeiffer's plan (whether or not lowering my copper level has been a 'key' or not I'm not sure).Copper levels will decrease quite gradually, and only if you've eliminated the source. I'd bet good money on drinking water as the source. Bottled water may only be tapwater poured into bottles.....check the label for dissolved mineral analyses.
I'm glad Pfeiffer is working for you.
Lar
Posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 17:49:05
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: about copper » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 5, 2003, at 17:10:07
Bottled water may only be tapwater poured into bottles.....check the label for dissolved mineral analyses.
>>>>>>>>Lar, re: check the label for dissolved mineral analyses---what should it say? (how will I know whether the mineral analyses indicates a "good" or "bad" analyses?
I'm glad Pfeiffer is working for you.
>>>>>>>>It's so hard to say for sure....so many variables to try to account for.....there are differences since going to Pfeiffer but I can't say for sure what the cause is.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 6, 2003, at 12:08:12
In reply to Lar, Re: about copper, posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 17:49:05
> Bottled water may only be tapwater poured into bottles.....check the label for dissolved mineral analyses.
>
> >>>>>>>>Lar, re: check the label for dissolved mineral analyses---what should it say? (how will I know whether the mineral analyses indicates a "good" or "bad" analyses?Assuming they're not lying, you would hope to find something substantially less than 2 ppm copper. 2 mg/litre is 2 ppm. If it's anything in the ppm range, you're probably looking at tap water.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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