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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:26:14
OK, I worked a brutal four week stretch, more than I have yet taken on since 1991.
No problems. No anticipated problems (always, I can feel the crash coming, almost in slow motion, as it crashes over me and drags me down).
Fingers crossed. Legs crossed. Eyes crossed. Other parts in reserve, to be crossed as needed.
Lar
Posted by Jack Smith on May 30, 2003, at 16:34:11
In reply to NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:26:14
Larry,
Dosages? and Brand? please. I am curious about this. Ron Hill gave me some info but I seem to have misplaced it, also I think he is a little more med-sensitive than I.
By the way, thanks for the recommendation regarding selenium. One thing you did not mention, though, is that stuff stinks. Mine comes from a yeast base, is that normal?
JACK
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 18:31:40
In reply to Re: NADH continues to protect me from chronic fati » Larry Hoover, posted by Jack Smith on May 30, 2003, at 16:34:11
> Larry,
>
> Dosages? and Brand? please. I am curious about this. Ron Hill gave me some info but I seem to have misplaced it, also I think he is a little more med-sensitive than I.I use the Source Naturals brand, one distributor of the Enada NADH products.
The sublingual, 10 mg formulation, called Enadalert:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/source-naturals-2107801332.htmlThe 2.5 mg oral Enada NADH tablets:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/source-naturals-2107801248.htmlThe 5 mg oral Enada NADH tablets:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/source-naturals-2107801249.html
Both Ron and I had a similar experience, but I need/tolerate more than he does. In any case, we both feel that there are two phases to using NADH, acute and chronic treatment phases. In the acute treatment phase, you use a relatively high dose each day, until you start to feel stimulated/irritable. For me, that was 10 mg/day for five days. After that, once your body has soaked up all it can handle, we found you then enter a chronic treatment phase, which is kind of like "topping up" the reserves. I get by on about 5 mg/week, and I think Ron uses less than that.Both of us found that TMG (trimethylglycine, also known as anhydrous betaine) is capable of "smoothing out" the NADH. Despite the fact both are stimulating substances, they add together for a calmer, more tolerable combination.
> By the way, thanks for the recommendation regarding selenium. One thing you did not mention, though, is that stuff stinks. Mine comes from a yeast base, is that normal?
>
> JACKSelenium yeast has a smell, no doubt about it. However, the yeast has converted the selenium from an ionic form to a part of a molecule (seleno-methionine) that your body can much more readily use.
Don't change too many things at once Jack, unless you're comfortable not knowing what the effects of each substance are.
Lar
Posted by Beastress on May 30, 2003, at 22:12:37
In reply to NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:26:14
> OK, I worked a brutal four week stretch, more than I have yet taken on since 1991.
>
> No problems. No anticipated problems (always, I can feel the crash coming, almost in slow motion, as it crashes over me and drags me down).
>
> Fingers crossed. Legs crossed. Eyes crossed. Other parts in reserve, to be crossed as needed.
>
> LarHi Larry,
Thank you (and Ron Hill) so much for your updates on NADH and other supplements, they've been more helpful than you can know. I posted a few months ago regarding CFS/FM-like symptoms that I thought (at first) were with drawal symptoms from Effexor. The information you posted about NADH helped me stay partially employed (so much better than none) and out of bed.The year anniversary from tapering off is coming up and I still have the same symptoms. I've had a year without healthcare to do a LOT of reading and know that these symptoms can be caused by a great many, different conditions. I finally qualified for financial assistance for healthcare and will be seeing a doctor next week. I suspect some blood tests will be involved. Will NADH or magnesium, selenium, zinc and few other vitamin/mineral supplements mask or hide important information on a blood test?
Thanks!
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 1, 2003, at 13:47:55
In reply to Re: NADH, supplements, blood tests, posted by Beastress on May 30, 2003, at 22:12:37
> > OK, I worked a brutal four week stretch, more than I have yet taken on since 1991.
> >
> > No problems. No anticipated problems (always, I can feel the crash coming, almost in slow motion, as it crashes over me and drags me down).
> >
> > Fingers crossed. Legs crossed. Eyes crossed. Other parts in reserve, to be crossed as needed.
> >
> > Lar
>
> Hi Larry,
> Thank you (and Ron Hill) so much for your updates on NADH and other supplements, they've been more helpful than you can know.....unless somebody tells us...
> I posted a few months ago regarding CFS/FM-like symptoms that I thought (at first) were with drawal symptoms from Effexor. The information you posted about NADH helped me stay partially employed (so much better than none) and out of bed.
That's great news. Niacinamide is much cheaper, and may serve to stretch the NADH's effectiveness. It seems that way for me. Maybe the TMG addition will also work for you?
> The year anniversary from tapering off is coming up and I still have the same symptoms. I've had a year without healthcare to do a LOT of reading and know that these symptoms can be caused by a great many, different conditions. I finally qualified for financial assistance for healthcare and will be seeing a doctor next week. I suspect some blood tests will be involved. Will NADH or magnesium, selenium, zinc and few other vitamin/mineral supplements mask or hide important information on a blood test?
>
> Thanks!Nothing from a routine test perspective, except possibly sedimentation rate. This is a gross (non-specific) test for inflammation, and antioxidants might possibly suppress that.
Lar
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 1, 2003, at 19:42:24
In reply to NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:26:14
I just tried NADH today; twice I took 10 mgs; didn't feel anything.
Could this be because I'm already supplementing w/ L-Tyrosine? Like, maybe I've hit my genetic 'wall' for natural energy increase?
I'm frustrated, because I've felt less motivation off meds and really enjoyed the brief feeling of motivation I got from Straterra.
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 2, 2003, at 1:25:30
In reply to NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:26:14
Never mind, I think the NADH is working after all! I took a 2nd 10 mg dose, and after about a 1 hour delay started working towards completing several tasks. I've been at it for 3 or 4 hours.
I think I expected to feel a 'buzz' or a 'rush' or something physically obvious. Instead I just feel awake. Maybe awake and focused. LOL. I should remind myself these supplements aren't espresso in a pill.
Posted by Caleb462 on June 2, 2003, at 3:08:09
In reply to Re: NADH continues to protect me from chronic fati » Larry Hoover, posted by Jack Smith on May 30, 2003, at 16:34:11
>One thing you did not mention, though, is that stuff stinks. Mine comes from a yeast base, is that normal?
Haha! I LIKE that smell! Almost makes me wanna eat the stuff!
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 9:00:36
In reply to Re: NADH continues to protect me from chronic fati, posted by Caleb462 on June 2, 2003, at 3:08:09
> >One thing you did not mention, though, is that stuff stinks. Mine comes from a yeast base, is that normal?
>
> Haha! I LIKE that smell! Almost makes me wanna eat the stuff!Are you an Aussie? Marmite?
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 9:03:54
In reply to Re: NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue » Larry Hoover, posted by bookgurl99 on June 2, 2003, at 1:25:30
> Never mind, I think the NADH is working after all! I took a 2nd 10 mg dose, and after about a 1 hour delay started working towards completing several tasks. I've been at it for 3 or 4 hours.
>
> I think I expected to feel a 'buzz' or a 'rush' or something physically obvious. Instead I just feel awake. Maybe awake and focused. LOL. I should remind myself these supplements aren't espresso in a pill.Any problems sleeping?
When you ingest caffeine, for example, you're hijacking a natural signalling pathway. When you ingest vitamins, you're using the natural processes the way they were "designed". I think that's a big part of the difference.
Glad to hear you got a beneficial effect, even it was rather muted. Ron says he feels the effect in 20 seconds (the sublingual form), whereas I notice it in maybe 10 minutes. I guess we're all a little different.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on June 2, 2003, at 9:27:05
In reply to Re: NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue » Larry Hoover, posted by bookgurl99 on June 2, 2003, at 1:25:30
Hi Books,
> Never mind, I think the NADH is working after all! I took a 2nd 10 mg dose, and after about a 1 hour delay started working towards completing several tasks. I've been at it for 3 or 4 hours.
Please keep in mind that for some (most?) people the higher doses required in the early stages of use become too much within a week or two. Be on guard for symptoms of irritability (or, perhaps, extreme sleepiness). If these symptoms occur, back off on the dose.
Also, 250 - 500 mg/day of TMG seems to work well with Enada NADH for many of us. If irritability is (or becomes) a problem, you might try adding 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide or niacin to help cut the edge off.
Best wishes.
-- Ron
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 2, 2003, at 11:31:39
In reply to Re: NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue » bookgurl99, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 9:03:54
>When you ingest caffeine, for example, you're hijacking a natural signalling pathway. When you ingest vitamins, you're using the natural processes the way they were "designed". I think that's a big part of the difference.
Larry,
I did stay up late but that was because I chose to do so, as I don't have to work today and wanted to get a lot done.
But don't you think even 'natural' supplements can cause funky side effects? For example, trying L-Phenylanaline gave me the same first day side effects as strattera did, maybe slightly milder.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 12:08:13
In reply to Re: no isomnia » Larry Hoover, posted by bookgurl99 on June 2, 2003, at 11:31:39
> >When you ingest caffeine, for example, you're hijacking a natural signalling pathway. When you ingest vitamins, you're using the natural processes the way they were "designed". I think that's a big part of the difference.
>
> Larry,
>
> I did stay up late but that was because I chose to do so, as I don't have to work today and wanted to get a lot done.
>
> But don't you think even 'natural' supplements can cause funky side effects? For example, trying L-Phenylanaline gave me the same first day side effects as strattera did, maybe slightly milder.I was ignoring dose. I was trying to stay simple, but that's the problem with generalizations.
Ron and I have both talked about adverse effects of NADH, for example, but they're dose-related.
Lar
Posted by queeryouth on June 2, 2003, at 19:36:05
In reply to Re: no isomnia » bookgurl99, posted by Larry Hoover on June 2, 2003, at 12:08:13
I decided to keep trying with the NADH/L-tyrosine today, even though I was tempted to pick up the phone and ask my pdoc for some more meds.
This is my third day on L-tyrosine, and my first feeling a really postive effect! I realized that I forgot my other vitamins yesterday, including B-Complex, which could be why I felt nothing. Or maybe I just needed to give it time.
This morning I took:
Levoxyl (100 mcg)
one hour later
NADH (10 mgs)
half hour later
L-Tyrosine (1000 mgs)
45 minutes later,
Breakfast (at McDonald's!)
w/ my AM Vitamin Pak (cordyceps, siberian ginseng, B-50, Cal-Mag citrate, Antioxidant vitamin, Multivitamin)A few hours later, another
L-Tyrosine (1000 mgs).I'm feeling pleasant and happy, not as motivated as I would like but not as fatigued as normal. Maybe with habit changes and this supplement combo, I can find true healing. I may try another 500 to 1000 L-Tyrosine later tonight.
Another positive thing I noticed; I normally feel "panicky" in lots of traffic, even while on Zoloft. I didn't feel that way today. I felt calm and able to deal with it all. :D
I'm so relieved to feel 'normal' off meds. What I really want now is for a higher level of motivation to kick in. I feel selfish, though, like I want to feel 'better than well.' I think returning to meds at this point would only boost me above normal, which could be great for the short term but not so great when I had to quit.
I am planning in a month on discontinuing the tonics I am on and continuing just the NADH. (for financial considerations).
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 3, 2003, at 21:58:56
In reply to NADH continues to protect me from chronic fatigue, posted by Larry Hoover on May 30, 2003, at 16:26:14
I took NADH for my 3rd day, along w/ 1000 mgs of L-Tyrosine.
Too stimulating! I feel happy and energetic -- the NADH taken an hour before my weightlifting workout helped me to pump extra reps and to do some more without fatigue. It was great!
But this evening, after the 2nd dose of L-Tyrosine, it's like I 'crossed the line' into hypomanic. I had to go to therapy and felt really anxious and talkative and fast. Blagh. So uncomfortable.
I think it may have been exacerbated by my drinking a 'protein shake' after working out. Too many stimulating aminos!
I'm stopping all stimulating substances for the moment, and then I'll try the L-Tyrosine at 500 mgs if I need a boost. I'm holding onto the NADH for times that I feel 'low,' as you guys suggested.
Thx for letting me know of this.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 1:59:55
In reply to Re: NADH too stimulating!, posted by bookgurl99 on June 3, 2003, at 21:58:56
Books,
> But this evening, after the 2nd dose of L-Tyrosine, it's like I 'crossed the line' into hypomanic. I had to go to therapy and felt really anxious and talkative and fast. Blagh. So uncomfortable.
Refresh my memory; Do you have a bipolar dx? Are you on a moodstabilizer?
I am of the opinion that bipolar patients should be on a mood stabilizer before taking Enada NADH.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 2:10:13
In reply to NADH, L-tyrosine update, posted by queeryouth on June 2, 2003, at 19:36:05
Q. Youth,
> 45 minutes later,
> Breakfast (at McDonald's!)This is likely the most important ingredient in your Rx and the primary reason your feeling a little perkier. :-)
On a more serious note, allow me to reiterate (verbatim) what I mentioned to Books (bookgurl99) higher up in this thread:
Please keep in mind that for some (most?) people the higher doses required in the early stages of use become too much within a week or two. Be on guard for symptoms of irritability (or, perhaps, extreme sleepiness). If these symptoms occur, back off on the dose.
Also, 250 - 500 mg/day of TMG seems to work well with Enada NADH for many of us. If irritability is (or becomes) a problem, you might try adding 250 - 500 mg/day of niacinamide or niacin to help cut the edge off.
-- Ron
Posted by bookgurl99 on June 4, 2003, at 2:48:07
In reply to Re: NADH too stimulating! » bookgurl99, posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 1:59:55
> > But this evening, after the 2nd dose of L-Tyrosine, it's like I 'crossed the line' into hypomanic. I had to go to therapy and felt really anxious and talkative and fast. Blagh. So uncomfortable.
>
> Refresh my memory; Do you have a bipolar dx? Are you on a moodstabilizer?
>I don't have a bipolar dx, which is part of why this symptom is so uncomfortable and disconcerting.!!
I do take verapamil (calan) 80 mgs x 3 for migraines. this is also used as a mood stabilizer, maybe it will assist if i just take it more regularly.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2003, at 3:20:29
In reply to Re: NADH too stimulating!, posted by bookgurl99 on June 4, 2003, at 2:48:07
Books,
> I don't have a bipolar dx, which is part of why this symptom is so uncomfortable and disconcerting.!!
> I do take verapamil (calan) 80 mgs x 3 for migraines. this is also used as a mood stabilizer, maybe it will assist if i just take it more regularly.
I think you're wise to back off on the Enada NADH for at least a few days. Remember, I only take 2.5 mg once or twice a week, otherwise it can make me ugly (well, uglier anyway). :-)
-- Ron
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