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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ace on May 4, 2003, at 22:02:12
Last night, after having a bath and eating a toasted Xanax sandwich (!), I sat back at had a look at old Pete Breggins' book.
This guy is great - exposing all those naughty shrinks who have done naughty things. Shrinks must hate this dude!
But seriously, it IS indeed good for there to be people like him: he does show many pitfalls in psycotherapy and psychiatry.Some behaviour, of some shrinks he talks of, is unbelievalble, and I actually think the guy is a nice kid.
The great thing about the guy is that he makes clear the power of an individual - he enequicocally states that you should nOT let any other human have power over you. He believes in the human potential, and sees psychiatry in many ways as thwarting this potential- which is true, IMO.
That being said, most of his views about drugs I take with a grain of sand (except SSRI w/drawal probs). But even there there is some gold amongst all the sand. Not much but.
I agree with Jeffrey Masson - THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALL WRONG ABOUT PSYCHOTHERAPY BEING A PROFESSION. It is vile to pay money to another to tell you how to live. We should get help, support from friends and family about those normal ups and downs of life. If we have chemical imbalances we should see a doctor who matches our symptamotology to a medication, prescribes and that's it. My GP is exactly like this.
But, I thoroughly believe in Psychopharmacolgy.
Just not psychotherapy or psychiatry where there is psychotherapy going on.
All the above is only my opinion. If you disagree tell me I smell, need to wash my hair, and have lovely teeth but need to be cleaned more often!
Sorry for the silliness- this Nardil w/drawal is making me even more silly ! Heaven Forbid!!!!
Ace.
Posted by shar on May 4, 2003, at 23:51:06
In reply to Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by ace on May 4, 2003, at 22:02:12
Did you say you were going into the the field of medicine? I'd be curious to know what area you plan to specialize in (if any).
Shar
Posted by Caleb462 on May 5, 2003, at 1:10:08
In reply to Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by ace on May 4, 2003, at 22:02:12
>If we have chemical imbalances we should see a doctor who matches our symptamotology to a medication, prescribes and that's it. My GP is exactly like this.
We may have mental illnesses, but I don't think we have "chemical imbalances." That's an over-simplification at best, and a pure myth at worst.
Posted by Snoozy on May 5, 2003, at 8:56:22
In reply to Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by ace on May 4, 2003, at 22:02:12
Hi ace -
> Last night, after having a bath and eating a toasted Xanax sandwich (!), I sat back at had a look at old Pete Breggins' book.Did you get the recipe from the Elvis cookbook? lol
I read a couple of Breggin's books some years ago, after having a few pdocs that could go in his books.
It's interesting that you bring him up - I haven't thought about him in a while. When I was reading his books, I had just gone through horrible, horrible SSRI withdrawls. It was a real relief to read about how that does happen - my pdocs treated it as if I was just an overcomplaining nut.
I am filled with equal parts despair and rage when I read about all of the people here that are *STILL* going through nasty SSRI withdrawl. I took Paxil and Effexor (not at the same time) when they were first available in the US - 1994 and 1995 I believe. The Effexor withdrawl was one of the worst things I have ever been through. I knew that once a drug is on the market here, the government doesn't really keep tabs on it, it's up to the drug maker to report about them. (Ha!) I did know about the FDA Medwatch system - docs are supposed to fill these out and send them in when a patient dies/has serious adverse effects from a drug. I got a copy of these forms, filled out my part, took it to my pdoc to have him fill it out and send it in. (I'm pretty sure he didn't send it in) Silly me, I thought here's this new drug and it causes this horrible withdrawl - and they need to know about it!! (Which of course they probably already did). But I didn't want a single person in the future to go through what I did withdrawing from the Effexor.
So here we are 7-8 years later and it seems every day there's at least one person here going through withdrawl - withdrawls that don't have to be hellish if they're monitored properly. I just feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall. Why oh why is this still happening? There is no excuse, no excuse at all for this to still be going on.
So now that I've brightened your day, I'll just say that reading Breggin's books can be very helpful.
>
> This guy is great - exposing all those naughty shrinks who have done naughty things. Shrinks must hate this dude!
> But seriously, it IS indeed good for there to be people like him: he does show many pitfalls in psycotherapy and psychiatry.
>
> Some behaviour, of some shrinks he talks of, is unbelievalble, and I actually think the guy is a nice kid.
>
> The great thing about the guy is that he makes clear the power of an individual - he enequicocally states that you should nOT let any other human have power over you. He believes in the human potential, and sees psychiatry in many ways as thwarting this potential- which is true, IMO.
>
> That being said, most of his views about drugs I take with a grain of sand (except SSRI w/drawal probs). But even there there is some gold amongst all the sand. Not much but.
>
> I agree with Jeffrey Masson - THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALL WRONG ABOUT PSYCHOTHERAPY BEING A PROFESSION. It is vile to pay money to another to tell you how to live. We should get help, support from friends and family about those normal ups and downs of life. If we have chemical imbalances we should see a doctor who matches our symptamotology to a medication, prescribes and that's it. My GP is exactly like this.
>
> But, I thoroughly believe in Psychopharmacolgy.
> Just not psychotherapy or psychiatry where there is psychotherapy going on.
>
>
>
>
> All the above is only my opinion. If you disagree tell me I smell, need to wash my hair, and have lovely teeth but need to be cleaned more often!
>
>
> Sorry for the silliness- this Nardil w/drawal is making me even more silly ! Heaven Forbid!!!!
>
>
> Ace.
>
Posted by fachad on May 5, 2003, at 15:51:04
In reply to Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by ace on May 4, 2003, at 22:02:12
Breggin is an extremist, but he really does have some valid points. It's too bad he expresses himself in such a dogmatic way, because it makes him come off like a nutcase.
As far as charging for psychotherapy, it's been going on for ever. There are several dialogues of Plato dealing with the phenomena of people (called Sophists in Ancient Greece) charging money to teach others how to live and how to be virtuous. Plato tells us that Socrates did not think very highly of them.
But really, sometimes there is something to be said for getting some outside, objective perspective and suggestions on seemingly intractable life problems.
> Last night, after having a bath and eating a toasted Xanax sandwich (!), I sat back at had a look at old Pete Breggins' book.
>
> This guy is great - exposing all those naughty shrinks who have done naughty things. Shrinks must hate this dude!
> But seriously, it IS indeed good for there to be people like him: he does show many pitfalls in psycotherapy and psychiatry.
>
> Some behaviour, of some shrinks he talks of, is unbelievalble, and I actually think the guy is a nice kid.
>
> The great thing about the guy is that he makes clear the power of an individual - he enequicocally states that you should nOT let any other human have power over you. He believes in the human potential, and sees psychiatry in many ways as thwarting this potential- which is true, IMO.
>
> That being said, most of his views about drugs I take with a grain of sand (except SSRI w/drawal probs). But even there there is some gold amongst all the sand. Not much but.
>
> I agree with Jeffrey Masson - THERE IS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALL WRONG ABOUT PSYCHOTHERAPY BEING A PROFESSION. It is vile to pay money to another to tell you how to live. We should get help, support from friends and family about those normal ups and downs of life. If we have chemical imbalances we should see a doctor who matches our symptamotology to a medication, prescribes and that's it. My GP is exactly like this.
>
> But, I thoroughly believe in Psychopharmacolgy.
> Just not psychotherapy or psychiatry where there is psychotherapy going on.
>
>
>
>
> All the above is only my opinion. If you disagree tell me I smell, need to wash my hair, and have lovely teeth but need to be cleaned more often!
>
>
> Sorry for the silliness- this Nardil w/drawal is making me even more silly ! Heaven Forbid!!!!
>
>
> Ace.
>
Posted by ace on May 5, 2003, at 19:14:05
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points ?ace , posted by shar on May 4, 2003, at 23:51:06
Posted by shar on May 6, 2003, at 23:40:49
In reply to Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by ace on May 4, 2003, at 22:02:12
>It is vile to pay money to another to tell you how to live. We should get help, support from friends and family about those normal ups and downs of life.
>......The fly in the ointment here is that (well, make that several flies)
(a) not everybody has developed normal life skills due to a myriad of reasons, especially family of origin problems,
(b) not everybody has friends and family that will offer support, or that can offer the appropriate kind of support if an emotional problem exists,
(c) not everybody is experiencing 'normal ups and downs' (whatever those are), some people experience extreme lows for extended periods (even with meds), or ups that take the top of the house along, and
(d) many people need good information from reliable sources to help them *develop* their own potential (which is different than being told how to live)..........So, for those reasons alone, psychotherapy can be extremely helpful, even while someone is taking meds. Of course, it is not for everyone, just as meds are not for everyone. I've never had formal psychiatric treatment (which I associate more with analysis), so I can't say much about that.
........I have been in counseling, still am, it is most helpful in bridging the gap between what I had to become to survive in my family, and what I can become now that I am no longer living at the mercy of people who harm me. A good therapist helps me do a lot of UNlearning, as well as learning new things, expanding my horizons, and helping me put things on my menu (if you will) that I never dreamed existed. I see my therapist as a partner, not a dictator.
.......I am NOT trying to change anyone's opinion, and don't care if people believe psychotherapy or therapy of any kind is a waste of time. That is their business, not mine. Just wanted to chime in with another perspective.
.........I do have some trouble with the ethics of mental health professionals dissing each other as a group. "Shrinks are useless" or "pdocs are useless" seems like a pretty limited viewpoint, and might deprive a client of something that could be valuable in their recovery. In each group, there are people who are dishonorable, unethical, unskilled, not knowledgeable, don't care, etc. It isn't limited to one group or the other. I've known good and bad in both professions.
> All the above is only my opinion. If you disagree tell me I smell, need to wash my hair, and have lovely teeth but need to be cleaned more often!
>
..........lol, nice to end things with a smile!Peace,
Shar
Posted by stjames on May 7, 2003, at 0:19:15
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by fachad on May 5, 2003, at 15:51:04
> As far as charging for psychotherapy, it's been going on for ever. There are several dialogues of Plato dealing with the phenomena of people (called Sophists in Ancient Greece) charging money to teach others how to live and how to be virtuous. Plato tells us that Socrates did not think very highly of them.
This ain't Greece, Toto.
Posted by ace on May 7, 2003, at 2:08:39
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points ?ace , posted by shar on May 6, 2003, at 23:40:49
Posted by MaxTex on May 8, 2003, at 0:02:20
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by stjames on May 7, 2003, at 0:19:15
I met Peter Breggin over ten years ago, sometime after reading his fine book The Psychology of Freedom. I generally think his pro-responsibility approach is excellent and productive. However, I do think he goes way too far in attacking the use of psychoactives and the role of professional psychotherapists and psychiatrists.
Will power and thinking can help you, but they will not cure all ills. I'm a smart guy (if I do say so myself!) and have studied all kinds of psychology and self-help methods for decades, yet STILL cannot fully change some things about myself without medication. True, current methods of psychopharmacological intervention are crude (though much better than 2 or 3 decades ago).
-- We still administer psychoactive substances in crude pill form
-- We can't accurately or feasibily measure individual levels of neurotransmitters and neuropeptides to tailor treatments to the individual
-- We don't yet have a good understanding of gene expression in neurons
-- Our psychiatric techniques are still partly reliant on guesswork and very weakly-scientific methods.
This won't always be the case. (You'll find some fascinating reading at hedweb.org and http://www.biopsychiatry.com/)
For now, listen to Breggin (and Thomas Szasz) but don't throw out drugs. They are potent tools for improvement. So is psychiatry. BOTH also require taking personal responsibility since doctors don't know everything (yes, really!). For instance, my doctor is going to get a sharply worded letter regarding his complete lack of advice on withdrawing from Effexor, yet I'm kicking myself for not researching it first.
Cheers,
MaxTex
Posted by jack smith on May 8, 2003, at 19:26:50
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points » ace , posted by shar on May 6, 2003, at 23:40:49
> ........I have been in counseling, still am, it is most helpful in bridging the gap between what I had to become to survive in my family, and what I can become now that I am no longer living at the mercy of people who harm me.
I think the point is you cannot make any blanket statements about therapy v. meds. For some cases, even the most extreme, therapy may be enough, for others, a combo is needed for others, only meds will do the trick.
What meds are you currently on Shar? I followed some of your posts years ago and you seem to be so much improved, just wondering what finally did the trick. I know you were on Effexor and Wellbutrin for a while which is currently what I am on. . . .
JACK
Posted by fierc on May 9, 2003, at 1:13:54
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by MaxTex on May 8, 2003, at 0:02:20
>I definately think everyone should read Breggin. I took a class at my university this semester that used Breggin's book Toxic Psychiatry. My Doc was not impressed that I was reading it because I began questioning my treatment plan. By the end of the class this semester I decided that it was time I give up my meds and see what life and myself are really like not being drugged. So far so good. It's been 2 months and I have had no panic or anxiety attacks or feelings of depression. I think the point that Breggin really wants to convy is that many docs just drug mental illness and not treat what caused it considering that most of it is not biological. I guess that is a strong statement to say but I'm in university so i have that show me the proof attitude. I guess I support that cause I've always been told my depression and anxiety is due to a chemical imbalance while I am feeling the best Ihave in 3 years off the meds. Now it just makes me wonder if any of the meds helped me as much as i wanted them to or thought they did. Breggin just makes you think and re-examine everything. Ok so that was a little off topic but just wanted you all to know that breggin isn't a complete quack despite his extreme statements. I believe his webpage is www.breggin.com but been a while since i was there so I could be wrong. Never hurts to do a little homework.
I met Peter Breggin over ten years ago, sometime after reading his fine book The Psychology of Freedom. I generally think his pro-responsibility approach is excellent and productive. However, I do think he goes way too far in attacking the use of psychoactives and the role of professional psychotherapists and psychiatrists.
>
> Will power and thinking can help you, but they will not cure all ills. I'm a smart guy (if I do say so myself!) and have studied all kinds of psychology and self-help methods for decades, yet STILL cannot fully change some things about myself without medication. True, current methods of psychopharmacological intervention are crude (though much better than 2 or 3 decades ago).
>
> -- We still administer psychoactive substances in crude pill form
>
> -- We can't accurately or feasibily measure individual levels of neurotransmitters and neuropeptides to tailor treatments to the individual
>
> -- We don't yet have a good understanding of gene expression in neurons
>
> -- Our psychiatric techniques are still partly reliant on guesswork and very weakly-scientific methods.
>
> This won't always be the case. (You'll find some fascinating reading at hedweb.org and http://www.biopsychiatry.com/)
>
> For now, listen to Breggin (and Thomas Szasz) but don't throw out drugs. They are potent tools for improvement. So is psychiatry. BOTH also require taking personal responsibility since doctors don't know everything (yes, really!). For instance, my doctor is going to get a sharply worded letter regarding his complete lack of advice on withdrawing from Effexor, yet I'm kicking myself for not researching it first.
>
> Cheers,
>
> MaxTex
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 9, 2003, at 22:01:42
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points, posted by fierc on May 9, 2003, at 1:13:54
> I met Peter Breggin over ten years ago, sometime after reading his fine book The Psychology of Freedom.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by temoigneur on May 11, 2003, at 17:02:14
In reply to Glad it works for you Shar! Good luck. (nm) » shar, posted by ace on May 7, 2003, at 2:08:39
Hey my good friend, (I hope:) This is Ben, with the four anxiety disorders. Hey look, I came across this article that purports that ressponse to clomipramine in OCD refractive cases can be predicted I think before - I don't understand all the terminology, but they use Neuroendocrine predictors to distinguish responders from non responders. This is all jargon I'm not indoctrinated in, but thought you would probably be familiar with. I know you're in Uni. and I know the feeling of fighting off suicidal thoughts just to get through the day, if this could take some pressure off, that'd be so wonderful, you've done a lot for me:) I saw that not too long ago, after the nardil wasn't doing what you hoped, you were debating clomipramine or parnate, anyway, check this article out, from pubmed, perhaps it could save you the trial and error period with the clomipramine, if you're doctor thinks there might be some legitimacy to it here's the link
take care,
Bless you,Ben
Posted by temoigneur on May 11, 2003, at 17:19:41
In reply to Re: Peter Breggin is a legend!...on some points » ace , posted by shar on May 6, 2003, at 23:40:49
Hi Ace it's me Ben again, honestly I didn't consciously plan to send you an article just so I could ask a question, but it came up - something really important is coming up and i need to feel good ASAP, I've been coming off paxil for three weeks, as of today (Sunday the 10th?) haven't taken it for a week. Is it necessary to give it a full 14 day washout in this period, do you know of any reckognized medical sites that refute this, my doctor is wisely cautious - as one must be with MAOI's, especially before you know how you respond. Any source you know of that suggests that the full fourteen days may not be necessary, it would mean almost the world to me, thnks again Ace.
Ben
Posted by ace on May 11, 2003, at 23:37:03
In reply to Important event does Nardil need 14 days » shar, posted by temoigneur on May 11, 2003, at 17:19:41
> Hi Ace it's me Ben again, honestly I didn't consciously plan to send you an article just so I could ask a question, but it came up - something really important is coming up and i need to feel good ASAP, I've been coming off paxil for three weeks, as of today (Sunday the 10th?) haven't taken it for a week. Is it necessary to give it a full 14 day washout in this period, do you know of any reckognized medical sites that refute this, my doctor is wisely cautious - as one must be with MAOI's, especially before you know how you respond.
Yes I can help you. Although the authorities consistently babnter on about 14 day wash-out this is not necessarry. I went from Nardil to Anafranil in 10 days.
You have been off Paxil one week (7 days). Some would say this is enough and you could start Nardil now. I havent any specific references on me but one at the moment, I will qoute it before. Personally if you switch before 10/14 days, leave the Nardil dose at 15mg for around 3/4 days, then raise, by 15mg daily, reaching 60mg by the end off 2 weeks. Stay on that for four weeks.
James W. Long MD- in his Parnate monograph on mentalhealth.com has said waite at least a week before changing from an MAOI to an MAOI or an MAOI to another AD. Look up Parnate on the google search and right at the top there should be his monograph.
But please don't do anything before consulting your doc. Serotonin syndrome (hypermetabolic syndrome) can be very scary. If you do switch earlier than 10 days, get an antihistamine which is called Periactin. This is a serotonin antagonist, and should very quickly reduce levels of serotonin in case of the syndrome, thereby thwarting the syndrome.
Any source you know of that suggests that the full fourteen days may not be necessary, it would mean almost the world to me, thnks again Ace.I will get back to with some more sources. I have heaps at home - oh, heres another one...look up 'Virtual Hospital + MAOI' on google. In this wonderfully written and intelligent report I believe the authors conclude 7 days is enough.
Whatever the case Ben, your in safe hands now - Nardil is really a great drug! And it's refreshing to hear of a Doctor who prescribes them still. Obviously your Doc hasn't been bamboozled by the SSRI cash cow industry (even though repeated studies, and I can quote, have deemed them far less effective than TCAs and MAOIs.
The only good thing is they initially have few s/effects for many. But w/drawal effects....very bad.
> BenGlad to help you mate!,
Andrew.
This is the end of the thread.
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