![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 14:29:21
I need advice and I don't know where else to turn. After reading some of the messages posted on this site, I feel confident that someone here can help me. This sounds like a group of very open-minded people. I'm sorry this is so long, but I thought a little of my history would help.
I'm 35 years old with 2 children (18mos & 7yrs) I've been suffering with fatigue since age 13 and it's getting worse with age. Doctors just shrugged it off without concern basically saying the same thing; Eat right, exercise and get plenty of sleep. I began slipping deeper and deeper into depression until I was at a point where I wanted to just go to sleep and never wake up. I was introduced to meth and couldn't believe how good I felt. My eyes stopped burning, the fog in my head went away, I was alert and finally felt like life was worth living. I looked and felt better than I had ever imagined. I stayed on that for about 10 years self-medicating myself. Although it was expensive and illegal I used it daily but only enough to get me through each day. No one knew I was using it, not even my husband. When I got pregnant, I stopped using it. I gained 100lbs and slept constantly. I started using it again right after I had my baby; I lost the weight and felt normal again. A few years later I divorced and moved to another state. I knew I wouldn't be able to get the drug where I was moving to, so I brought some with me.
I eventually remarried and became pregnant again. I was out of the stuff I brought with me and once again I gained a lot of weight (70lbs this time) After I had my baby, I suffered from postpartum depression and was put on Zoloft. It didn't help. I knew I had Hypothyroid and tests confirmed it so I was put on Synthroid. That didn't help. I switched to Armour Thyroid and changed from Zoloft to Celexa. The doctor thought my depression was causing the fatigue and said I would just have to learn to live with it.
All I wanted to do was sleep. My whole body was weak and it took all my strength to get up. My eyes burned and there was that constant fog back in my head again. I cried doing everyday tasks like cooking, cleaning and showering. I couldn't even play with my kids. I felt so guilty.Finally I found a doctor who was willing to take a chance and put me on Dexedrine Spans. 30mg per day. It helped a little, but not much. He agreed to add Desoxyn along with the Dexedrine and that helped me tremendously, but now after 6 months, I find myself getting tired again and my doctor doesn't want to increase the dose and personally I don't want to either. I'd like to change meds (besides, the Desoxyn is too hard to get) I don't know what else would help. I don't have ADD/ADHD or Narcolepsy but I think my doctor would be willing to experiment. (I hope anyway)
I would really appreciate your expertise and advise. I'm so desperate. I don't want to live life half asleep. I haven't found a doctor yet that can diagnose my problem so I don't think I'll ever know what's wrong with me, but if I can find the right medicine, I might have a chance of living a normal life.Thank you for taking the time to read this and for any help you can give me.
Posted by Geezer on May 6, 2002, at 15:50:39
In reply to Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 14:29:21
> I need advice and I don't know where else to turn. After reading some of the messages posted on this site, I feel confident that someone here can help me. This sounds like a group of very open-minded people. I'm sorry this is so long, but I thought a little of my history would help.
>
> I'm 35 years old with 2 children (18mos & 7yrs) I've been suffering with fatigue since age 13 and it's getting worse with age. Doctors just shrugged it off without concern basically saying the same thing; Eat right, exercise and get plenty of sleep. I began slipping deeper and deeper into depression until I was at a point where I wanted to just go to sleep and never wake up. I was introduced to meth and couldn't believe how good I felt. My eyes stopped burning, the fog in my head went away, I was alert and finally felt like life was worth living. I looked and felt better than I had ever imagined. I stayed on that for about 10 years self-medicating myself. Although it was expensive and illegal I used it daily but only enough to get me through each day. No one knew I was using it, not even my husband. When I got pregnant, I stopped using it. I gained 100lbs and slept constantly. I started using it again right after I had my baby; I lost the weight and felt normal again. A few years later I divorced and moved to another state. I knew I wouldn't be able to get the drug where I was moving to, so I brought some with me.
> I eventually remarried and became pregnant again. I was out of the stuff I brought with me and once again I gained a lot of weight (70lbs this time) After I had my baby, I suffered from postpartum depression and was put on Zoloft. It didn't help. I knew I had Hypothyroid and tests confirmed it so I was put on Synthroid. That didn't help. I switched to Armour Thyroid and changed from Zoloft to Celexa. The doctor thought my depression was causing the fatigue and said I would just have to learn to live with it.
> All I wanted to do was sleep. My whole body was weak and it took all my strength to get up. My eyes burned and there was that constant fog back in my head again. I cried doing everyday tasks like cooking, cleaning and showering. I couldn't even play with my kids. I felt so guilty.
>
> Finally I found a doctor who was willing to take a chance and put me on Dexedrine Spans. 30mg per day. It helped a little, but not much. He agreed to add Desoxyn along with the Dexedrine and that helped me tremendously, but now after 6 months, I find myself getting tired again and my doctor doesn't want to increase the dose and personally I don't want to either. I'd like to change meds (besides, the Desoxyn is too hard to get) I don't know what else would help. I don't have ADD/ADHD or Narcolepsy but I think my doctor would be willing to experiment. (I hope anyway)
> I would really appreciate your expertise and advise. I'm so desperate. I don't want to live life half asleep. I haven't found a doctor yet that can diagnose my problem so I don't think I'll ever know what's wrong with me, but if I can find the right medicine, I might have a chance of living a normal life.
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read this and for any help you can give me.Hi Marni,
Your symptoms sound familar. Like you I had some early experience with amphetamine (sever Dex. abuse) but how sweet the ride while it lasted.
Your symptoms of extreme tiredness, foggy head, heavy feeling, weight gain, sound like you might have "atypical depression" - which is actually very typical. The treatment of choice for atypical depression (at least the current theory) involves the use of the old MAOI drugs = Parnate, Nardil. Interestingly, the metabolites of Parnate are meth. and amphet. but don't expect the drug to act or feel like meth. You might want to do a search on atypical depression and Parnate. You will find some VERY knowledgeable people on this board that will be a great help to you. Sounds like you have a very trusting pdoc - very hard to find these days.Very best wishes
Geezer
Posted by ST on May 6, 2002, at 17:16:02
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by Geezer on May 6, 2002, at 15:50:39
Marnie,
I got so angry when I read what some of these doctors have said to you! You need a really good doc - sounds like maybe you've found one. I have no experience with this, but I wish you luck. You *do not* have to settle for feeling anything less than good in your life.
Take care and good luck,
sarah
Posted by rainbowlight on May 6, 2002, at 18:36:11
In reply to Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 14:29:21
Your symptoms sound to me like depression also. It typically causes alot of fatigue. I know it is hard, but adding physical exercise everyday really helps boost your energy level. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, you could go for a long walk. And I'm sure your kids would love it too. Also, liquid multi-vitamins really boost my energy level too. They act much faster than your typical pill vitamin. You can find them at the local health food store, or you could order them online. A really good brand is called "Buried Treasure" (I know strange name). I am sure the others here can recommend some med choices, I just thought I would give you a few ideas to help with the fatigue. I hope you feel better soon.
Posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 19:03:40
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by rainbowlight on May 6, 2002, at 18:36:11
> Your symptoms sound to me like depression also. It typically causes alot of fatigue. I know it is hard, but adding physical exercise everyday really helps boost your energy level. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, you could go for a long walk. And I'm sure your kids would love it too. Also, liquid multi-vitamins really boost my energy level too. They act much faster than your typical pill vitamin. You can find them at the local health food store, or you could order them online. A really good brand is called "Buried Treasure" (I know strange name). I am sure the others here can recommend some med choices, I just thought I would give you a few ideas to help with the fatigue. I hope you feel better soon.
Thanks for the advice, but I have already tried exercise, (4 mile walks outside 5 times per week) and the liquid multi-vitamins ($39.95). I did that for 5 months and I would fall asleep right when I got home. I was really watching what I ate too and never dropped a pound. I even bought a brand new NordicTrac Treadmill and forced myself to use it.
I tried Metabolife, Ephedra Tea Powder and anything else to wake me up, with no success.
I'm sure that might be the cure for most people, but unfortunately, It didn't work for me. I wish it was that easy.
Thanks again,
Marnie
Posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 19:16:17
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by ST on May 6, 2002, at 17:16:02
> Marnie,
>
> I got so angry when I read what some of these doctors have said to you! You need a really good doc - sounds like maybe you've found one. I have no experience with this, but I wish you luck. You *do not* have to settle for feeling anything less than good in your life.
>
> Take care and good luck,
>
> sarahHi Sarah,
Thank you for your concern. It makes me angry too that doctors can be so cruel. I am very grateful to the doctor who has helped me, but he's not a Psychiatrist and I've never had an neuro-evaluation so he's taking a chance giving me those meds. I don't know how much experimenting he will be willing to try on me. I'll be seeing him again on this Wed. Wish me luck.
Thanks,
Marnie
Posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 19:18:28
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by Geezer on May 6, 2002, at 15:50:39
Thank you for your advice,
I will read about the Parnate, Nardil.Marnie
Posted by JohnX2 on May 6, 2002, at 20:18:18
In reply to Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 14:29:21
> I need advice and I don't know where else to turn. After reading some of the messages posted on this site, I feel confident that someone here can help me. This sounds like a group of very open-minded people. I'm sorry this is so long, but I thought a little of my history would help.
>
> I'm 35 years old with 2 children (18mos & 7yrs) I've been suffering with fatigue since age 13 and it's getting worse with age. Doctors just shrugged it off without concern basically saying the same thing; Eat right, exercise and get plenty of sleep. I began slipping deeper and deeper into depression until I was at a point where I wanted to just go to sleep and never wake up. I was introduced to meth and couldn't believe how good I felt. My eyes stopped burning, the fog in my head went away, I was alert and finally felt like life was worth living. I looked and felt better than I had ever imagined. I stayed on that for about 10 years self-medicating myself. Although it was expensive and illegal I used it daily but only enough to get me through each day. No one knew I was using it, not even my husband. When I got pregnant, I stopped using it. I gained 100lbs and slept constantly. I started using it again right after I had my baby; I lost the weight and felt normal again. A few years later I divorced and moved to another state. I knew I wouldn't be able to get the drug where I was moving to, so I brought some with me.
> I eventually remarried and became pregnant again. I was out of the stuff I brought with me and once again I gained a lot of weight (70lbs this time) After I had my baby, I suffered from postpartum depression and was put on Zoloft. It didn't help. I knew I had Hypothyroid and tests confirmed it so I was put on Synthroid. That didn't help. I switched to Armour Thyroid and changed from Zoloft to Celexa. The doctor thought my depression was causing the fatigue and said I would just have to learn to live with it.
> All I wanted to do was sleep. My whole body was weak and it took all my strength to get up. My eyes burned and there was that constant fog back in my head again. I cried doing everyday tasks like cooking, cleaning and showering. I couldn't even play with my kids. I felt so guilty.
>
> Finally I found a doctor who was willing to take a chance and put me on Dexedrine Spans. 30mg per day. It helped a little, but not much. He agreed to add Desoxyn along with the Dexedrine and that helped me tremendously, but now after 6 months, I find myself getting tired again and my doctor doesn't want to increase the dose and personally I don't want to either. I'd like to change meds (besides, the Desoxyn is too hard to get) I don't know what else would help. I don't have ADD/ADHD or Narcolepsy but I think my doctor would be willing to experiment. (I hope anyway)
> I would really appreciate your expertise and advise. I'm so desperate. I don't want to live life half asleep. I haven't found a doctor yet that can diagnose my problem so I don't think I'll ever know what's wrong with me, but if I can find the right medicine, I might have a chance of living a normal life.
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read this and for any help you can give me.Hi Marnie,
You may do well on a antidepressant medication called Wellbutrin.
It is fairly stimulating. It works on more stimulating
chemicals than Celexa,Zoloft..It sometimes is used as a
medicine to treat ADD (like dexedrine).John
Posted by Lia Mason on May 6, 2002, at 23:35:38
In reply to Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by marnie on May 6, 2002, at 14:29:21
Marnie!
I understand. I was treated successfully for depression from age 18-22. Then I was hit with horrible, debilitating fatigue. I could sleep through a weekend, my brain was mush, I fantasized about my bed. I gave up my job and went into a psych hospital. I was terribly debilitated, but I got better. The whole thing, beginning to end, took almost 3 years.
I'm 32 now and fine. I don't know and probably never will if I had chronic fatigue syndrome or depression or what. I believe there was a viral/immune system component because I was an excellent responder to antidepressants and when this fatigue hit NOTHING worked anymore.
I could write a book on this--but I won't. Some advice. Read a book called "Tired All the Time" by Ronald Hoffman. It's about hidden causes of fatigue that doctors often miss.
Find a psychiatrist who does NOT use the phrase "live with it." If you hear that, run. There is plenty you can do. The MAOI's are a great idea (though side effects can be troublesome) and effexor helps people who nothing else has worked for. Nardil sliced through my fatigue, but messed with my blood pressure and made me uncomfortable in a bunch of ways. Parnate is supposedly better. I took Prozac in the hospital and that helped some.
Make sure your thyroid is well-monitored. Some psychiatrists (mine is one) believe that "low normal" scores aren't good enough for people who suffer from depression.
I have no personal experience, but have heard good things about a drug called Provigil. It's stimulant-like, but not a stimulant. I heard of one case where high dose Provigil helped a chronic depressive who had tried everything.
The lousy thing about this is you really do have to be your own advocate. Read a lot and pursue a good doctor. Don't settle for one who is pessimistic or tells you you have no options. I was offered disability when I was at my worst by a doctor who guaranteed I would never get better. Doctors aren't supposed to talk that way unless, I suppose, the patient is terminal. You've got plenty of options, but you do have to look for them and be a bit of a detective. Easy with 2 kids, I know.
You don't mention anything that sounds chronic fatigue-like, but if you have any flu-like symptoms, it might be worth reading up on.
GOOD LUCK. Think of me and have hope.
Lia
Posted by marnie on May 7, 2002, at 0:09:37
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by Lia Mason on May 6, 2002, at 23:35:38
Lia,
Thank you so much. You've given me some hope.
I'm glad to hear that you've over come your depression and fatique. I will definitely get that book you mentioned and look into some of the medications you named. Thank you. Thank you.Marnie
Posted by BLPBart on May 8, 2002, at 2:26:04
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long) » Lia Mason, posted by marnie on May 7, 2002, at 0:09:37
> Lia,
>
> Thank you so much. You've given me some hope.
> I'm glad to hear that you've over come your depression and fatique. I will definitely get that book you mentioned and look into some of the medications you named. Thank you. Thank you.
>
> MarnieAbsolutely educate your self also on the thyroid issues. I did a lot of reading about that and have found out that many docs don't know what they're doing in that area. Most will measure your TSH level and if it falls in some range, usually in the 0.5-5 range, they'll tell you there's nothing wrong; or they'll say you're hypothyroid, give you synthroid and simply get your TSH down to about 5. New research is indicating that for most people an ideal TSH level is around 1-2. Also, you HAVE to measure free T3 and T4 too, because there are people who have levels of these hormones that are too low, despite having what's considered "normal" TSH levels, but doctors often don't measure these and it gets missed. One last point. In the past, thyroid patients were given Armour thyroid which was actual dessicated and ground up thyroid from pigs. This gave the patient the mixture of hormones that are normally present in the thyroid. Now docs tend to give synthetic T4 (synthroid) with the theory being that your body will convert the T4 into the active T3 form. A lot of patients have reported that T4 alone doesn't work for them and they feel as awful as they did when they weren't treated at all. I think in some cases, the problem these people have is their body lacks the ability to convert the T4 into the biologically active T3. This may not be a problem for you at all, but you should try to rule out thyroid issues. A really good website on this is the about.com site dedicated to thyroid issues.
Posted by marnie on May 8, 2002, at 9:50:29
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by BLPBart on May 8, 2002, at 2:26:04
> > Lia,
> >
> > Thank you so much. You've given me some hope.
> > I'm glad to hear that you've over come your depression and fatique. I will definitely get that book you mentioned and look into some of the medications you named. Thank you. Thank you.
> >
> > Marnie
>
> Absolutely educate your self also on the thyroid issues. I did a lot of reading about that and have found out that many docs don't know what they're doing in that area. Most will measure your TSH level and if it falls in some range, usually in the 0.5-5 range, they'll tell you there's nothing wrong; or they'll say you're hypothyroid, give you synthroid and simply get your TSH down to about 5. New research is indicating that for most people an ideal TSH level is around 1-2. Also, you HAVE to measure free T3 and T4 too, because there are people who have levels of these hormones that are too low, despite having what's considered "normal" TSH levels, but doctors often don't measure these and it gets missed. One last point. In the past, thyroid patients were given Armour thyroid which was actual dessicated and ground up thyroid from pigs. This gave the patient the mixture of hormones that are normally present in the thyroid. Now docs tend to give synthetic T4 (synthroid) with the theory being that your body will convert the T4 into the active T3 form. A lot of patients have reported that T4 alone doesn't work for them and they feel as awful as they did when they weren't treated at all. I think in some cases, the problem these people have is their body lacks the ability to convert the T4 into the biologically active T3. This may not be a problem for you at all, but you should try to rule out thyroid issues. A really good website on this is the about.com site dedicated to thyroid issues.I have already been through exactly what you mentioned above with the thyroid. One doc put me on Synthroid. I asked for Armour, but she refused. I changed docs and the new one wouldn't even consider Armour for me. I begged her to just try it, but no. She switched me to Unithroid.
Needless to say that did nothing either. I kept searching until I found a doctor who was willing to give me Armour and it did help a little bit, but not nearly enough. I've tried different doses, but couldn't find a cure. I'm taking 90mg Armour. 1-1/2 grains, Celexa, Dexedrine and Desoxyn. I'm still having trouble stying awake during the day. I don't want to increase the meds anymore, I'd really like to find out what's wrong with me. I ordered the book that Lia mentioned and hopefully it will have some answers for me. Thank you for your advise. I appreciate it.Marnie
Posted by BLPBart on May 8, 2002, at 10:07:31
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long) » BLPBart, posted by marnie on May 8, 2002, at 9:50:29
> > > Lia,
> > >
> > > Thank you so much. You've given me some hope.
> > > I'm glad to hear that you've over come your depression and fatique. I will definitely get that book you mentioned and look into some of the medications you named. Thank you. Thank you.
> > >
> > > Marnie
> >
> > Absolutely educate your self also on the thyroid issues. I did a lot of reading about that and have found out that many docs don't know what they're doing in that area. Most will measure your TSH level and if it falls in some range, usually in the 0.5-5 range, they'll tell you there's nothing wrong; or they'll say you're hypothyroid, give you synthroid and simply get your TSH down to about 5. New research is indicating that for most people an ideal TSH level is around 1-2. Also, you HAVE to measure free T3 and T4 too, because there are people who have levels of these hormones that are too low, despite having what's considered "normal" TSH levels, but doctors often don't measure these and it gets missed. One last point. In the past, thyroid patients were given Armour thyroid which was actual dessicated and ground up thyroid from pigs. This gave the patient the mixture of hormones that are normally present in the thyroid. Now docs tend to give synthetic T4 (synthroid) with the theory being that your body will convert the T4 into the active T3 form. A lot of patients have reported that T4 alone doesn't work for them and they feel as awful as they did when they weren't treated at all. I think in some cases, the problem these people have is their body lacks the ability to convert the T4 into the biologically active T3. This may not be a problem for you at all, but you should try to rule out thyroid issues. A really good website on this is the about.com site dedicated to thyroid issues.
>
> I have already been through exactly what you mentioned above with the thyroid. One doc put me on Synthroid. I asked for Armour, but she refused. I changed docs and the new one wouldn't even consider Armour for me. I begged her to just try it, but no. She switched me to Unithroid.
> Needless to say that did nothing either. I kept searching until I found a doctor who was willing to give me Armour and it did help a little bit, but not nearly enough. I've tried different doses, but couldn't find a cure. I'm taking 90mg Armour. 1-1/2 grains, Celexa, Dexedrine and Desoxyn. I'm still having trouble stying awake during the day. I don't want to increase the meds anymore, I'd really like to find out what's wrong with me. I ordered the book that Lia mentioned and hopefully it will have some answers for me. Thank you for your advise. I appreciate it.
>
> MarnieYou certainly sound like you're on top of that one. Has anyone ever done a sleep study on you?
Posted by marnie on May 8, 2002, at 18:35:30
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Help...(long), posted by BLPBart on May 8, 2002, at 10:07:31
> > > > Lia,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you so much. You've given me some hope.
> > > > I'm glad to hear that you've over come your depression and fatique. I will definitely get that book you mentioned and look into some of the medications you named. Thank you. Thank you.
> > > >
> > > > Marnie
> > >
> > > Absolutely educate your self also on the thyroid issues. I did a lot of reading about that and have found out that many docs don't know what they're doing in that area. Most will measure your TSH level and if it falls in some range, usually in the 0.5-5 range, they'll tell you there's nothing wrong; or they'll say you're hypothyroid, give you synthroid and simply get your TSH down to about 5. New research is indicating that for most people an ideal TSH level is around 1-2. Also, you HAVE to measure free T3 and T4 too, because there are people who have levels of these hormones that are too low, despite having what's considered "normal" TSH levels, but doctors often don't measure these and it gets missed. One last point. In the past, thyroid patients were given Armour thyroid which was actual dessicated and ground up thyroid from pigs. This gave the patient the mixture of hormones that are normally present in the thyroid. Now docs tend to give synthetic T4 (synthroid) with the theory being that your body will convert the T4 into the active T3 form. A lot of patients have reported that T4 alone doesn't work for them and they feel as awful as they did when they weren't treated at all. I think in some cases, the problem these people have is their body lacks the ability to convert the T4 into the biologically active T3. This may not be a problem for you at all, but you should try to rule out thyroid issues. A really good website on this is the about.com site dedicated to thyroid issues.
> >
> > I have already been through exactly what you mentioned above with the thyroid. One doc put me on Synthroid. I asked for Armour, but she refused. I changed docs and the new one wouldn't even consider Armour for me. I begged her to just try it, but no. She switched me to Unithroid.
> > Needless to say that did nothing either. I kept searching until I found a doctor who was willing to give me Armour and it did help a little bit, but not nearly enough. I've tried different doses, but couldn't find a cure. I'm taking 90mg Armour. 1-1/2 grains, Celexa, Dexedrine and Desoxyn. I'm still having trouble stying awake during the day. I don't want to increase the meds anymore, I'd really like to find out what's wrong with me. I ordered the book that Lia mentioned and hopefully it will have some answers for me. Thank you for your advise. I appreciate it.
> >
> > Marnie
>
> You certainly sound like you're on top of that one. Has anyone ever done a sleep study on you?
No, I haven't had a sleep study done. That's probably going to be something that I'll try soon though. It's so frustrating not knowing what my problem is and having most doctors basically saying that I'm just lazy.I am grateful that my doctor is willing to work with me and experiment to help me feel better. Hopefully we'll be able to figure it out.
Thanks again,
Marnie
This is the end of the thread.
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