![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Bekka H. on February 9, 2002, at 23:01:45
In reply to MY DOCTOR IS A PSYCHIATRIST!!!!! (nm), posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 20:19:16
Jason, you seem really smart. I can't believe you're still in high school. I do agree, however, with spike that it's a bit early to start on an MAOI. Also, above a certain number of milligrams on Eldepryl, you have the same dietary restrictions as the old MAOIs, and that might be very difficult.
Again, I'm really impressed with your knowledge, your research and the way you express yourself.
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 0:18:27
In reply to Re: MY DOCTOR IS A PSYCHIATRIST!!!!!, posted by Bekka H. on February 9, 2002, at 23:01:45
Thanks for your caring, Bekka. I really admire your interest. I know it may seem early because of risks associated with MAOI's, but don't worry. 5 or 10mg will inhibit MAO-B only (no doubt). Above that is where it gets risky :) But personally, I'd say 20mg is where that point starts. I wouldn't need to worry about that anyway, 10mg will be my first dose/day and if all goes well, I plan on reducing to 5mg as soon as I feel the effects. And sex, as you know, is important to me which can be a risk with the SSRI's. I would rather try that first and THEN go to SSRI's. I really wish I didn't have to. With Wellbutrin not working and stimulants like Adderall & Ritalin not working for me, I don't see many other options other than SSRI class drugs such as Zoloft or Effexor or MAOI's (other than my selegiline) like Nardil which has its drawbacks. Definately not tri-cyclics. I'm leaning toward thinking I would be classified as your everyday atypical. They respond best to MAOI's. But, of course, my 5mg dose or so will prevent dietary risks. The mechanism of action won't be that of your typical MAOI, like Nardil, though. It's MAO-B inhibition with phenylalanine to promote PEA for catecholamine enhacement which should therefore promote concentration, motivation, and all around energy, while the Klonopin (not generic) in the morning (2mg) will help with my SP/anxiety problems. As a result I'm hoping to feel great, be sexually charged, and free of anxiety and just feel loose rather than tense and land myself a girlfriend. I'll let you know how it goes on Wednesday to see if I get my program approved and, more importantly, if it worked for me. Call me the guinea pig, if you will. I could set an example for others to follow if meds are not working for them. Adderall seemed to have the opposite effect you'd typically see in most people, which was kind of sedating at the 50mg dose I took today before the ACT (after 30mg yesterday produced no response) and also resulted in a slight headache for a few hours. Not for me. It was against doctors orders, but I knew 15mg was nowhere near workable and the nurse was telling me that he might want to increase my dose and/or try Adderall XR. After I tell him of my experience with the higher dosages, I'm sure he'll figure out that's not part of the needed solution. Hopefully, he'll keep an open mind and listen to, what I believe, is a valid argument for treatment. I figure there's low risk of side-effects so why not give it a shot for a month, y'know? Again, thanks for your input! Keep in touch and God bless... -Jason911
.
.
.> Jason, you seem really smart. I can't believe you're still in high school. I do agree, however, with spike that it's a bit early to start on an MAOI. Also, above a certain number of milligrams on Eldepryl, you have the same dietary restrictions as the old MAOIs, and that might be very difficult.
>
> Again, I'm really impressed with your knowledge, your research and the way you express yourself.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
In reply to 3 Beer gives sex advice* not laid in years*drunk » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 18:47:53
If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.
The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.
And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.
Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.
(In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!3 Beers.
--------------------------------------------------> I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
>
> P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
>
Retard writes:
>
> > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> >
> > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> >
> > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> >
> > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
>
>
> ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> >
> > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> >
> > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> >
> > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
>
> Butthead.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 4:25:09
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
I'll take it paragraph by paragraph on why we had differences of opinion:
> > > If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.< < <**
Keep an open mind here. I know alot more than you think. But HEY.. calm down, calm down. Don't take that to heart, I think I make a good point here: Wellbutrin isn't totally a dopaminergic. And not all dopaminergics act the same way in the brain (or the people that use them, for that matter). It is known to block the reuptake of NE to some extent but only mildly binds to the dopamine receptor site. Wellbutrin's actual mechanism of action is actually unknown. It has shown to actually DECREASE the amount of dopamine produced by the brain. But it may have some effect on the dopaminergic system in another way other than creating more dopamine at the synapse, no one really knows for sure. Just because Wellbutrin doesn't work in an individual doesn't mean that the problem isn't dopamine related by any means. Same with serotinergic meds. Serzone has its share of good responders, while others respond better to Effexor, or Prozac, or Zoloft. Serotonin is the heart of their problems, but if they thought like you, after having failed Serzone and Zoloft they'd give up and say that they don't respond to serotinergic meds. Take methylphenidate and Adderall as another example. Each are closely related to or a derivative of amphetamine and both are classified as stimulants but act quite differently in the brain and depends on the individual that uses them. Ritalin made me extremely hyper-active, whose actions tend to be more acute (does the "meth" part of the word provide any clue..) and shorter acting, while Adderall (which with me, had no effect, except as an appetite suppressant, until I tried 50mg - considered a high dose that makes most people feel euphoric or at least more alert to say the least - which made me a little sedated and gave me somewhat of a headache) tends to stimulate at a steady pace thanks to dextro-amphetamine and other salts, including levo-amphetamine, from 5 - 7 hours. IN MOST PEOPLE. I don't respond well to Adderall. Ritalin can work for someone while Adderall will not & vise versa or both may not work. These two meds stimulate the brain in different ways and are known to increase dopamine levels, but, other than increasing dopamine levels, they do many other things to the body and mind that can be harmful or cause side-effects, i.e. over-stimulating the central nervous system, in suseptable individuals, and not related directly to dopamine alone. It really does get complicated. But it seems to me that you think all dopaminergics do the same thing which is entirely false. Just because those two stimulants didn't work does not mean my problem is not dopamine related. Some dopaminergics increase dopamine directly at the synapse (these tend to lose effectiveness over time as the brain, over time, responds by reducing the amount of recieving neurons in respose to perpetual high levels of dopamine - called "homeostasis"), while others block it's uptake, while others help the body to produce it via stimulating the brain to more efficiently make and release the dopamine at the right times and in response to a given impulse (bascially by jump starting the mechanisms that recede the dopamine release). The brain is a hard thing to coax into doing what you would like it to do. As for insomnia, this only lasted for a week after starting the wellbutrin (like the psychiatrist anticipated) as wellbutrin also stimulates the CNS! But, he prescribed that clonazepam (not Klonopin as I previously stated - I recieved the generic - which I found out a few hours ago and I feel Klonopin is superior) at .5mg before bed. I don't need this to get to sleep as I have stopped that 4 days ago to prove this to myslelf. I think I would have gotten to sleep anyway after allowing a full week to get used to it, like he said, but I insisted I get assistance to get to sleep out of impatience. Plus for the past month, some days, I have taken it at around 10pm or so while not going to sleep til about 1 or 2am because I stayed up on this computer, dedicated to get as much information as I could in search of my "solution". I leave some info out of some of my posts as each of my posts would then resemble a short story (as if they aren't already). So really, the Wellbutrin did help a little in calming me down. The Adderall made me a little edgy at 30-50mg. So what? I'm done with it. Agitation? Remember from my original post, when I told the doctor about the various compliments I got from teachers? But it isn't enough and the stimulants are not working plus aren't a wise desicion for use over the long term (at least Adderall). There is an outside chance that I could fall under that treatment-resistant category or, otherwise, an atypical depressee! These people do, in fact, regardless of what you think, respond best to MAOI's. We know what side effects can come from MAOI's like diet restrictions and possibly weight gain and blah blah blah. Selegiline could, in theory, be just as good in treating depression although via different methods and the studies that were in my original post (that were in that paper of mine) were not advertisements or attached in any way to the sale of deprenyl, and just simply a medical student writing on the possible benefits and uses of this fairly unkown drug, compiling 4 well-respected and highly regarded studies on depression, in the US. The second study is actually in the manufacturer's insert (Youdim)! The reason deprenyl is rarely used in depression is mainly based on the first study from my other post that stated that MAO-B inhibition alone was simply not enough to battle depression unless used at non-selective doses (above 15mg- usually ranging from 30-60mg), but part of a potentially profound solution for this. Not to mention protection of brain cells from neurotoxicity. Scientists involved in studies of life-extension are well aware of it's benefits. There have been studies that you can actually use this if you happened to be an MDMA user (which I'm not) and prevent that damage due to neurotoxicity (cell damage) that occurs in multiple users or MPTP toxins from heroin use. There is much, much more that I haven't even mentioned yet and for good reason as it's not really relevant to the subject of depression. Sexual rejuvination for obvious well-explained reasons (just read other people's posts on their use of it- search for it). And Klonopin dosage I want for the morning for anxiety/phobia symptoms, which are almost as equally important to me as it impacts a large part of my everyday life, could also serve as a safeguard against possible insomnia from over-stimulation. Interestingly, (search Babble with the words "selegline" and "klonopin") getting to sleep should be a breeze and is only enhanced by the selegiline or other MAOI's such as Nardil. Both of these, however, are not near as effective by themselves. You know about deprenyl by now, but sole klonopin use can affect some people's short-term memory. But, I'm not disagreeing about the fact that I may not respond like the others or the 60 or 70% of the patients from the studies. NOT EVERY PERSON REACTS THE SAME TO A SPECIFIC MEDICATION.
>
> > > The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.< < <.
.
Deprenyl is the least bit dangerous. The only side effects ever reported in people without digenerative brain diseases were agitation, insomnia, and nausea (usually due to too much of a specific transmitter). Deprenyl is reported in most human studies to be well tolerated. *Typically, no abnormalities are noted in blood pressure, laboratory valves, ECG, or EEG (Tolbert, S. & Fuller, M. - 1996 - "Selegiline in the treatment of behavioral and cognitive symptoms of Alzheimer disease" ANN PHARMACOTHER 30, 1122-29).Remeron? Side Effects: Feeling sleepy, dizzy, or tired - Increased appetite - weight gain - Nausea - Constipation - Dry mouth - Odd or unusual dreams (common)
You know why deprenyl is used rarely by now don't you? It's from assumptions and dismissal based on the fact of the effectiveness of sole MAO-B inhibition alone. However, dosages were quite effective but at non-selective doses (30-60mg) and, ultimately, a low side-effect solution to other MAOI's.
>
> > > And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.< < <.
.
.
You could look at it that way but that information is off site. BTW, it's erowid.COM! It informs us all about not only commonly used and abused drugs (informative to the curious and points out pros and cons and by no means encourages drug use) and tell it like it is, but also about all kinds of pharmacutical drugs and vitamins/herbs. Other readers can see for themselves. Quit being so negative. They were one of many sources of information..
.
> > > Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.< < <.
.
I had somewhat of a stern tone in my last response to you beacuse I was a little perturbed about the fact that I expressed that I was reluctant to try (and would like to avoid if at all possible) and had an extreme dislike for SSRI's because of their sexual side effects. But that is what you go and recommend, saying it would improve my sex life, while also neglecting to mention the large percentage of people that experienced sexual side-effects, i.e. inorgasmia. And all this after I read that you hadn't had sex in 2 years and that was in a drunken state with a fat woman. Plus, you're bipolar (no offense). Extreme highs and lows is the definition and maybe that had something to do with your managable sexual function. I am in a completely different situation and a good 50% at least of men that are unipolar or that take it for anxiety experience sexual side-effects. ABCNews.com reported that that number could be as high as 60% percent of all SSRI's users. That information could have been useful. And my goal, by the way, is to go through as few meds as possible so as to not screw my brain up so bad that it doesn't know whether to make serotonin or bust into a convulsion. You do have the "experience" but that's not neccesarily a good basis for an opinion if your bipolar. Your brain is operating alot different than mine. In your case, I'd be reluctant to give suggestions to people who's diagnosis is completely different than yours as the meds that have worked for you could have a completely different effect on a person with different problems and most likely require different solutions. Same could happen even if the diagnosis was similar to yours but at least you'd be working in familiar territory and therefore would be perfectly acceptable to provide your thoughts and opinions.> (In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
I have a 4.0 GPA and on my way to IT school. Obviously, I know something. I possess a great deal of common sense and an uncanny ability to learn quite fast. I know my problems and have come up with a solution for it based on what i've learned. We'll know who's right after Wednesday. Time will tell...
.
.
> I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!< < <
>
NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE! HOW RUDE. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING??
> 3 Beers.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
> >
> > P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
> >
> Retard writes:
> >
> > > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> > >
> > > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> > >
> > > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> > >
> > > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
> >
> >
> > ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> > >
> > > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> > >
> > > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> > >
> > > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
> >
> > Butthead.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Posted by Joel on February 10, 2002, at 4:59:03
In reply to OK! I feel bad but hear me out, beer man » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 4:25:09
Jason911, practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com, and i take 5mg of deprenyl with 50mg of HTP.
I can tell you that beer man is probably right, I think deprenyl is only good for people who dont respond to other treatments cause it doesnt work as well most of the time. Although for manic depressives with sensitivity to most anti depressants, sure its probably the best choice. For a dysphoric person like yourself, Id try an SSRI.
But to be bluntly honest, 300mg of HTP is a lot of goddamn HTP. i cant find more than 50mg in a pill(and btw HTP means nothing without B-6 so you should get plenty of that as well). Oh and btw, HTP is just as much of a sexual depleter as most SSRI's. Its not a bad thing though cause instead you just DONT WANT sex, which is good.
Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.
Posted by jay on February 10, 2002, at 5:30:25
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
Can't we be a little nicer to each other??...we are all going through pain, an none of us has *the* answer.
Jay
> If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.
>
> The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.
>
> And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.
>
> Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.
> (In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
> I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!
>
> 3 Beers.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
> >
> > P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
> >
> Retard writes:
> >
> > > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> > >
> > > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> > >
> > > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> > >
> > > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
> >
> >
> > ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> > >
> > > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> > >
> > > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> > >
> > > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
> >
> > Butthead.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Posted by Dinah on February 10, 2002, at 8:27:17
In reply to Whoa! Holy Un-Civil! » 3 Beer Effect, posted by jay on February 10, 2002, at 5:30:25
I agree with you 110%, Jay, but it looked as if that post was directed only to 3 Beer Affect, in which case you really should read further up the thread.
There are a few posts in this thread that can only make me assume that Dr. Bob is away this weekend.
Really, it should be possible to discuss differences in opinion on meds without resorting to name calling. Jay is perfectly right. We should be civil to one another. I'm just questioning the > > directed to in the title.
3 Beer Effect, I read lower down that you're planning to leave this site. I hope it isn't over this. Dr. Bob usually keeps things in much better control.
I really hate to butt in here. (I really do - BELIEVE ME.)
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 10:20:37
In reply to 3 Beer gives sex advice* not laid in years*drunk » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 18:47:53
> Piss off man... thanks for nothing :)
Please be civil, I'd like for the atmosphere here to be supportive.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Bob
PS: Any discussion about posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 10:25:49
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
Posted by Ed on February 10, 2002, at 10:31:37
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
I'll bet anybody a nickle no SSRI will work for Jason911, nor will tricyclics. But I do wonder, given his assertiveness and clear writing, whether he needs an antidepressant at all. I am thinking klonopin alone might do just fine for him. Anyway, if any "antidepressant" is going to do anything for him, it is going to be a dopamine-based antidepressant, such as adrafinil or selegiline. (To that he can add either klonopin, or mirapex or requir or amisulpride, if agitation or nervousness occur).
Posted by Kristi on February 10, 2002, at 13:37:46
In reply to Re: MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Ed on February 10, 2002, at 10:31:37
I found your story to be very interesting, and I agree with some others, you sound very intelligent and more importantly... in tune with yourself. Wow.... if I had that kind of intelligence at your age :) Good luck on wed... and I'll be looking forward to your post. Take care, Kristi
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 13:59:57
In reply to Jason911..., posted by Joel on February 10, 2002, at 4:59:03
Here is what I believe:
> > > Jason911, practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com, and i take 5mg of deprenyl with 50mg of HTP.< < <
Why aren't you trying it with phenylalanine (start with 1,000mg/day) and B6!!! That is the number one solution in my book (for what I have anyway). NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything.
.
.
>
> > > I can tell you that beer man is probably right, I think deprenyl is only good for people who dont respond to other treatments cause it doesnt work as well most of the time. Although for manic depressives with sensitivity to most anti depressants, sure its probably the best choice. For a dysphoric person like yourself, Id try an SSRI.< < <
.
SSRI = sexual dysfunction. I don't want to get into this for the 400th time!!!
>.
>
> > > But to be bluntly honest, 300mg of HTP is a lot of goddamn HTP. i cant find more than 50mg in a pill(and btw HTP means nothing without B-6 so you should get plenty of that as well). Oh and btw, HTP is just as much of a sexual depleter as most SSRI's. Its not a bad thing though cause instead you just DONT WANT sex, which is good.< < <.
.
I know!!! 50mg is all you can probably find. I haven't even considered that 5-HTP option because of the outrageous bill you'd rack up on that much/day. Serotonin is not my problem. Don't want sex? I'm about to go off to college and you think it's good that my interest in sex will be absolutely nill??? I don't know about you but I would kill to get my anxiety gone so that I could have sex from dusk til dawn. Sex means alot to me. And, again, I'm only 17. Disinterest in sex is not healthy.
>
> > > Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.< < <Duh. Have you read any of my posts???
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:10:14
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Don't know if you saw my other answer to you but I've copied & pasted, in case you haven't. I really don't know if my information would work for you but since you asked...
I wouldn't try Deprenyl first off. Two of the studies are old (1978 & 1984) & while they're still applicable, there's so much more known about the brain's neurotransmitters now, at least compared to then & the interaction between them is much more complicated than imagined. The catecholamine based theory of depression seems right but I'm not sure our approach is always right.
I do agree that it's important to provide the necessary precursors in our diet for neurotransmitter synthesis which is why I foolow a GOOD, balanced diet & take extra supplementation. I can feel the difference, subtle but real nonetheless, when I take nutritional yeast flakes (high in B complex vitamins & many minerals) & from when I get lazy & let it slide.
Like you, I have serious problems with motivation, concentration, & focus. I also have mild enough narcolepsy & ADHD plus regular depression, worse in winter. When I was young, I 'self-medicated' too & of all the drugs taken, it was speed (meth) that was the most wonderful. So wonderful, it scared me as I wasn't ignorant of addiction, seeing it in others. It made me feel SO normal, but I was too scared to ever use it again.
When Dexedrine was prescribed for me many years later, it felt good too though not as powerful. But I hated the way I'd feel when the dose wore off - sleepy & blah again. And I noticed if I used it regularly, it started to lose effect. I nneded frequent 'holidays' from it. Ritalin felt even more up & down.
I read about the use of Provigil (modafinil) for narcolepsy in a science journal & in researching it found adrafinil & this forum where I lurked for a while. Adrafinil has been my god-send giving me a life again with enthusiasm. Rather than write it all out again, I hope you don't mind me providing a link to an old post. There's a number of us modafinil/adrafinil users here who really love the stuff. Rather than inhibiting or blocking re-uptake of transmitters, it seems to increase the brain's over-all metabolism. It's still not well understood (but neither are traditional ADs).
Here's my old posting link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020116/msgs/90699.html (If you want to check out more posts on adrafinil/modafinil, I'm sure you know how to.)And here's an article on adrafinil (it's main metabolite is modafinil [Provigil]) from CNS Drug Reviews, 1999:
http://www.nevapress.com/cnsdr/full/5/3/193.pdf
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:12:05
In reply to Re: MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Ed on February 10, 2002, at 10:31:37
Well thank you for your compliments! My writing does indeed make it appear that I would have no problem whatsoever, but it's just that I am so dedicated to finding a solution to my problem. Even good writers can get depression. I don't think the SSRI's will work, either; just cause more problems for me. Tricyclics are out of the question. They always have been. I agree that dopamine + mild SP/anxiety symptoms are the problems that need to be solved. And come Wednesday, I should be starting selegiline+klonopin. I am 75% sure that dopamine is the problem here. I'll be letting everyone know how it goes... God bless - Jason911
.
p.s. I'm hoping the 2mg of Klono in the morning will help any anxiety that could be caused by the deprenyl. Again, HOPING. :) Peace.
..
> I'll bet anybody a nickle no SSRI will work for Jason911, nor will tricyclics. But I do wonder, given his assertiveness and clear writing, whether he needs an antidepressant at all. I am thinking klonopin alone might do just fine for him. Anyway, if any "antidepressant" is going to do anything for him, it is going to be a dopamine-based antidepressant, such as adrafinil or selegiline. (To that he can add either klonopin, or mirapex or requir or amisulpride, if agitation or nervousness occur).
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:13:58
In reply to Re:Jason911 , posted by Kristi on February 10, 2002, at 13:37:46
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:20:14
In reply to Re: Your Med Combo and Ideas » Jason911, posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:10:14
I don't believe in stimulants for depression. Like I said in my other posts, they are only a temporary solution. Ups and downs? I wish nobody had to go through that. Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes on Wednesday and if my proposed solution proves true. God Bless - Jason911
> Don't know if you saw my other answer to you but I've copied & pasted, in case you haven't. I really don't know if my information would work for you but since you asked...
>
> I wouldn't try Deprenyl first off. Two of the studies are old (1978 & 1984) & while they're still applicable, there's so much more known about the brain's neurotransmitters now, at least compared to then & the interaction between them is much more complicated than imagined. The catecholamine based theory of depression seems right but I'm not sure our approach is always right.
>
> I do agree that it's important to provide the necessary precursors in our diet for neurotransmitter synthesis which is why I foolow a GOOD, balanced diet & take extra supplementation. I can feel the difference, subtle but real nonetheless, when I take nutritional yeast flakes (high in B complex vitamins & many minerals) & from when I get lazy & let it slide.
>
> Like you, I have serious problems with motivation, concentration, & focus. I also have mild enough narcolepsy & ADHD plus regular depression, worse in winter. When I was young, I 'self-medicated' too & of all the drugs taken, it was speed (meth) that was the most wonderful. So wonderful, it scared me as I wasn't ignorant of addiction, seeing it in others. It made me feel SO normal, but I was too scared to ever use it again.
>
> When Dexedrine was prescribed for me many years later, it felt good too though not as powerful. But I hated the way I'd feel when the dose wore off - sleepy & blah again. And I noticed if I used it regularly, it started to lose effect. I nneded frequent 'holidays' from it. Ritalin felt even more up & down.
>
> I read about the use of Provigil (modafinil) for narcolepsy in a science journal & in researching it found adrafinil & this forum where I lurked for a while. Adrafinil has been my god-send giving me a life again with enthusiasm. Rather than write it all out again, I hope you don't mind me providing a link to an old post. There's a number of us modafinil/adrafinil users here who really love the stuff. Rather than inhibiting or blocking re-uptake of transmitters, it seems to increase the brain's over-all metabolism. It's still not well understood (but neither are traditional ADs).
>
> Here's my old posting link:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020116/msgs/90699.html (If you want to check out more posts on adrafinil/modafinil, I'm sure you know how to.)
>
> And here's an article on adrafinil (it's main metabolite is modafinil [Provigil]) from CNS Drug Reviews, 1999:
> http://www.nevapress.com/cnsdr/full/5/3/193.pdf
>
>
>
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:27:07
In reply to IsoM: Thank you very much. I hate those stims-, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:20:14
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:32:52
In reply to Jason911..., posted by Joel on February 10, 2002, at 4:59:03
You try to make me look like a fraud!!! Shame on you. Here is the post regarding selegiline and it resembles nothing of my previous posts. Facts like what dosages retain MAO-B selectivity are well known and not taken from some stupid site. That is a very informative site, though. I believe everything stated is true in there.
Here it is (and I believe it only adds to the points I have been trying to make):
"SELEGILINE (l-deprenyl)
A recent New York study showed that smokers had on average 40% less of the enzyme, monoamine oxidase type-B, in their brains than non-smokers. Levels returned to normal on their giving up smoking. Not merely is the extra dopamine in the synapses rewarding. The level of MAO-b inhibition smokers enjoy apparently contributes to their reduced incidence of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease. Unfortunately they are liable to die horribly and prematurely of other diseases first.One option which the dopamine-craving nicotine addict might wish to explore is switching to the (relatively) selective MAO-b inhibitor selegiline, better known as l-deprenyl. Normally the brain's irreplaceable complement of 30-40 thousand odd dopaminergic cells tends to die off at around 13% per decade in adult life. Their death diminishes the quality and intensity of experience. It also saps what in more ontologically innocent times might have been called one's life-force. Eighty percent loss of dopamine neurons results in Parkinson's disease, often prefigured by depression. Deprenyl has an anti-oxidant , immune-system-boosting and dopamine-cell-sparing effect. Its use boosts levels of tyrosine hydroxylase, growth hormone, superoxide dismutase and the production of key interleukins. Deprenyl offers protection against DNA damage and oxidative stress by hydroxyl and peroxyl radical trapping; and against excitotoxic damage from glutamate.
Whatever the full explanation, deprenyl-driven MAOI-users, unlike cigarette smokers, are likely to be around to enjoy its distinctive benefits for a long time to come, possibly longer than their drug-naïve contemporaries. For in low doses, deprenyl enhances life-expectancy, of rats at least, by 20% and more. It enhances drive, libido and motivation; sharpens cognitive performance both subjectively and on a range of objective tests; serves as a useful adjunct in the palliative treatment of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease; and makes you feel good too. It is used successfully to treat canine cognitive dysfunction syndrome (CDS) in dogs. At dosages of below 10-15 mg daily, deprenyl retains its selectivity for the type-B MAO iso-enzyme. At MAO-B-selective dosages, deprenyl doesn't provoke the "cheese-effect"; tyramine is also broken down by MAO type-A. Deprenyl isn't addictive, which probably reflects its different delivery-mechanism and delayed reward compared to inhaled tobacco smoke. Whether the Government would welcome the billions of pounds of lost revenue and a swollen population of energetic non-taxpayers that a switch in people's MAOI habits might entail is unclear."Does anyone think I pasted anything from this article???? Joel, why would you accuse me of such a thing. You are the least bit perceptive. From what point do you think I... you're full of it. Really! You probably aren't in the best mental health so I understand. -Jason911
.
.> Jason911, practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com, and i take 5mg of deprenyl with 50mg of HTP.
>
Posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:33:00
In reply to IsoM: Thank you very much. I hate those stims-, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:20:14
Jason, I'm not sure if you read my posting correctly. I'm NOT advocating taking stims - I think they're a stop-gap measure only. Did you read the report from Drug Reviews on adrafinil? Even if you don't wish to take it, read it over for interest's sake - you like to learn. It's got some interesting info there.
I'm not trying to change your mind, but if the Deprenyl combo doesn't do what you hoped for, consider what I wrote, please. Adrafinil/modafinil seems to improve over-all brain metabolism & has a strong effect on dopamine related behaviours - motivation, contentment, quiet joy, etc.
Good luck on Wednesday!
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:34:29
In reply to Wouldn't Place Provigil In Same Class As Stims (nm) » Jason911, posted by IsoM on February 10, 2002, at 14:27:07
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 14:59:52
In reply to Re: SSRI is risky!!!!! » Bekka H., posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 0:18:27
Maybe this will make all you people set on SSRI's understand where I am coming from. And this particular guy seems to have had long term sexual side-effects even after stopping the meds. Read and see where I'm coming from (he tells it like it is):
ethan writes-
>
>
I will not tolerate sexual side effects with these drugs (it isn't a matter of whether I can or not -- I simply WILL not). I've been down the Paxil and Zoloft roads (forget Prozac) and found that for me the loss of sexual function exacerbated my depression GREATLY, while the drug's "benefit" was simply to flatten out my personality and mood. This is called "Turning Into A Zombie."The loss of sexual function made me more frustrated than I had been, made me isolate because I was ashamed I couldn't "function" anymore, and the damage from those months and years of trying these drugs have taken their toll on my self-esteem. Today the meds I take are not supposed to have sexual side effects, and yet I still have difficulties -- which are no doubt the aftermath of being put through the ringer with drugs that adversely affect sexual function, along with the original and continuing effects of the depression.
I know you're joking about the hooker (maybe not), and it's good to see you're trying to make light of the problem through humor, but the long term psychological damage sexual dysfunction can have on you is NOT GOOD.
Advice that was given me and which I pass along is:
Talk to your doctor about getting OFF the meds you are on that are robbing you of your sex drive OR see whether you can add a med that makes you more spunky (i.e., the side effects of one drug that offsets the side effects of another drug. Serzone was quoted me as one drug that can offset sexual side effects in other drugs, for example...WB is anot supposed to adversely affect sex drive, etc.
Naturally it depends on what is wrong with you, what you have tried before and what does and doesn't work for your condition (we all respond differently to different drugs and as much as the docs know about the meds they are still in the dark about plenty -- hence we are all our own guinea pigs). If sexual side effects are bothering you even a little you have to take that seriously and demand your pdoc look into and discuss with you every other treatment possibility available for your condition.
A lot has to do with diet and exercise, too. Exercise especially. Most of us are sitting on our beee-hinds typing away on this BB when we could be getting a half hour of aerobic exercise (even just fast walking). I know that's a big issue for me, one which definitely also affects my capacity to function sexually. I bet most of us with depression don't exercise nearly enough, and if we did we might be able to take less meds to get enough benefit and deal with less side effects. Just a thought my doc passed along to me.
For men especially to be robbed of their sexual identity (being relegated to the status of eunuch) is perhaps the most discouraging and underrated liability of taking psychotropic medications which adversely affect sex drive. Whether it's right or wrong, many men equate their intrinsic self worth with their ability to "rise" to various sexual occasions (so to speak). That aspect of man isn't going to change. It is, however, up to each of us to work with our doctors to find solutions to our conditions that do not emasculate us.
Sex is one of the easiest things to find in this world if you really want it. There are plenty of people who are willing to have sex for a price, infinitely more who would be willing to do so "recreationally" if approached with respect and honesty. Not isolating and making ourselves available to potential partners is part of the problem also. We can sit on a BB and type away and not be "out there" meeting people. Incidentally, as soon as I finish typing this, I'm outa here to head up to the local watering hole and see if I get lucky. It takes forcing yourself to be social, or else go to a strip club and get a lap dance, or whatever. But don't isolate. Perhaps the worst thing about drugs that rob us of our sexual abilities is that we are even denied the ability to masturbate.
It's our choice whether we take the drugs prescribed for us and when we find the sexual side effects ruining us, our responsibility to take action. Believe me, I know -- I learned the "hard" way (bad pun).
ethan
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 15:46:01
In reply to Re: Jason911...ARRRRRGGHHHHH!!!! » Joel, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 13:59:57
> > practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com
>
> NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything.That's right, no false accusations, here, please.
> > Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.
>
> Duh. Have you read any of my posts???But no sarcasm, either, OK?
Bob
Posted by manowar on February 11, 2002, at 12:55:39
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Are you just *hitting us?
Damn, if you are 17 though-- go to college, get your PHD and become a shrink. Better yet--be a chemist and develop the perfect pill for us.
--Tim
Posted by Joel on February 11, 2002, at 15:24:24
In reply to Re: please be civil » Joel » Jason911, posted by Dr. Bob on February 10, 2002, at 15:46:01
> > > practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com
> >
> > NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything.
>
> That's right, no false accusations, here, please.
>
> > > Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.
> >
> > Duh. Have you read any of my posts???
>
> But no sarcasm, either, OK?
>
> BobOk I was wrong about one thing, it wasnt listed in biophyschiatry.com. That was my fault, I knew I had read an acticle about that somewhere that looked identical and I ASSUMED it was from there and for that Im terribly sorry. But I checked and found the acticle and yes, you did paste things or copy them word for word. The article can be found elsewhere.
Ill show you some examples of OBVIOUS copy pasting.
This is what you said:
"It wasn't until the 1990s that Knoll's deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. Knoll discovered that deprenyl [selegiline] (and it's cousin, PEA) are "catecholamine enhancers". Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons from these two brain circuits project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention."This is what the report on the website said:
"During the 1990s Knoll’s deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. (2,16) Knoll discovered that deprenyl (and its “cousin”, PEA) are “catecholamine activity enhancers”.Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenalin, and adrenalin. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons of the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and locus coeruleus project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. (17)"
Again, you said:
"Here's how it works: when an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the recieving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of nerotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron , causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It's like "turning up the volume" on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in depression where there may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons."The report said:
"When an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the receiving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of neurotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron, causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. (2,16)In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It’s like “turning up the volume” on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in various contexts - such as Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, where the nigrostriatal tract and mesolimbic-cortical circuits under-function (1,17), as well as in depression, where they may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons. (18,19)"
Last time, You said:
"Even deprenyl in itself has shown in autopsy studies to not only increase dopamine levels by 40-70% in Parkinson patients but increase PEA levels 1300-3500%! You see, PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer has a dual mode of action. At MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a huge catecholamine enhancing effects due to the major increases in PEA levels. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. Knoll's discovery of PEA's catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect."And the report said...:
"Autopsy studies have shown that while deprenyl increases dopamine levels in Parkinson patient brains by only 40-70%, deprenyl increases PEA levels 1300 - 3500%! (14,22) PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. Paterson and colleagues have shown that PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. (21) Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer activity has a dual mode of action. At low, non-MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a direct catecholamine activity enhancer activity.At higher, MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl creates an additional catecholamine activity enhancer effect, due to the huge increases in brain PEA levels that deprenyl causes, PEA also being a catecholamine activity enhancer substance. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. (14, 15, 22)
Knoll’s discovery of PEA’s catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect."
Amazingly, a lot of these "papers" look the same to me."NOTHING I said was pasted from ANYWHERE but my paper. The studies and facts are probably quite similar to what is from biopsychiatry.com. Don't accuse me of anything."
Oh really? See I take offence to that. You made it sound like you had done tons of information on deprenyl, but really most of your paper was about your troubles and other copied postings from other acticles. In actuallity, youve never tried deprenyl. People like me who have, know that its VERY mild in comparison to other anti-depressants. Now in some cases that may be a good thing, but it is not a miracle drug by any means.
Also that website you got most of that information from actually SELLS deprenyl overseas, theyll say whatever they can to convince you to buy it. Anyways just think about what I said, Im not accusing you I hope you understand that we all know quite a bit about anti depressants too, and it seems rather foolish to expect us to believe you when you dont believe us.
Posted by Jason911 on February 11, 2002, at 17:11:08
In reply to So you didnt copy/paste? Whats this? » Dr. Bob, posted by Joel on February 11, 2002, at 15:24:24
Hey! That IS where I got my paper. I was looking all over for where I actually got the information and was pissed off when you could ORDER the stuff there. But, in another light, I DO believe what the paper has to say, as it makes a very valid argument. You say it's very mild. Have you taken it with 1 or 2g of phenylalanine?? That's the key here. Vitamin B6? And other people's posts have been an indicator to me as well. People have said on this site (and you can search for yourself to anyone who's interested in trying it) that it has worked extremely well. One used the phrase "life-changing". Another had brilliant success with what I want to take (Selegiline + Klonopin). I still believe just as strong in it as before, though. And sorry for going off on you regarding where I got the info from. That site from which I printed my papers from were what I used on my original post. But thank you though, because I was looking all over for that site again, to try and see if there was any more info. But, again, I wouldn't doubt Mr. Knoll and his discoveries and his theories on how the drug works. He's not getting any dividends from the sale of the drug on that site. Oh, well. Wish me luck on Wednesday. God bless -Jason911
P.S. I didn't copy and paste. I was taking the info from my paper and re-typed for my post. It was very tedious and took me over 4 hours to get my entire posts done. Somewhere from 11:30pm - 3:40. Wheeew!
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