Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 4:25:09
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
I'll take it paragraph by paragraph on why we had differences of opinion:
> > > If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.< < <**
Keep an open mind here. I know alot more than you think. But HEY.. calm down, calm down. Don't take that to heart, I think I make a good point here: Wellbutrin isn't totally a dopaminergic. And not all dopaminergics act the same way in the brain (or the people that use them, for that matter). It is known to block the reuptake of NE to some extent but only mildly binds to the dopamine receptor site. Wellbutrin's actual mechanism of action is actually unknown. It has shown to actually DECREASE the amount of dopamine produced by the brain. But it may have some effect on the dopaminergic system in another way other than creating more dopamine at the synapse, no one really knows for sure. Just because Wellbutrin doesn't work in an individual doesn't mean that the problem isn't dopamine related by any means. Same with serotinergic meds. Serzone has its share of good responders, while others respond better to Effexor, or Prozac, or Zoloft. Serotonin is the heart of their problems, but if they thought like you, after having failed Serzone and Zoloft they'd give up and say that they don't respond to serotinergic meds. Take methylphenidate and Adderall as another example. Each are closely related to or a derivative of amphetamine and both are classified as stimulants but act quite differently in the brain and depends on the individual that uses them. Ritalin made me extremely hyper-active, whose actions tend to be more acute (does the "meth" part of the word provide any clue..) and shorter acting, while Adderall (which with me, had no effect, except as an appetite suppressant, until I tried 50mg - considered a high dose that makes most people feel euphoric or at least more alert to say the least - which made me a little sedated and gave me somewhat of a headache) tends to stimulate at a steady pace thanks to dextro-amphetamine and other salts, including levo-amphetamine, from 5 - 7 hours. IN MOST PEOPLE. I don't respond well to Adderall. Ritalin can work for someone while Adderall will not & vise versa or both may not work. These two meds stimulate the brain in different ways and are known to increase dopamine levels, but, other than increasing dopamine levels, they do many other things to the body and mind that can be harmful or cause side-effects, i.e. over-stimulating the central nervous system, in suseptable individuals, and not related directly to dopamine alone. It really does get complicated. But it seems to me that you think all dopaminergics do the same thing which is entirely false. Just because those two stimulants didn't work does not mean my problem is not dopamine related. Some dopaminergics increase dopamine directly at the synapse (these tend to lose effectiveness over time as the brain, over time, responds by reducing the amount of recieving neurons in respose to perpetual high levels of dopamine - called "homeostasis"), while others block it's uptake, while others help the body to produce it via stimulating the brain to more efficiently make and release the dopamine at the right times and in response to a given impulse (bascially by jump starting the mechanisms that recede the dopamine release). The brain is a hard thing to coax into doing what you would like it to do. As for insomnia, this only lasted for a week after starting the wellbutrin (like the psychiatrist anticipated) as wellbutrin also stimulates the CNS! But, he prescribed that clonazepam (not Klonopin as I previously stated - I recieved the generic - which I found out a few hours ago and I feel Klonopin is superior) at .5mg before bed. I don't need this to get to sleep as I have stopped that 4 days ago to prove this to myslelf. I think I would have gotten to sleep anyway after allowing a full week to get used to it, like he said, but I insisted I get assistance to get to sleep out of impatience. Plus for the past month, some days, I have taken it at around 10pm or so while not going to sleep til about 1 or 2am because I stayed up on this computer, dedicated to get as much information as I could in search of my "solution". I leave some info out of some of my posts as each of my posts would then resemble a short story (as if they aren't already). So really, the Wellbutrin did help a little in calming me down. The Adderall made me a little edgy at 30-50mg. So what? I'm done with it. Agitation? Remember from my original post, when I told the doctor about the various compliments I got from teachers? But it isn't enough and the stimulants are not working plus aren't a wise desicion for use over the long term (at least Adderall). There is an outside chance that I could fall under that treatment-resistant category or, otherwise, an atypical depressee! These people do, in fact, regardless of what you think, respond best to MAOI's. We know what side effects can come from MAOI's like diet restrictions and possibly weight gain and blah blah blah. Selegiline could, in theory, be just as good in treating depression although via different methods and the studies that were in my original post (that were in that paper of mine) were not advertisements or attached in any way to the sale of deprenyl, and just simply a medical student writing on the possible benefits and uses of this fairly unkown drug, compiling 4 well-respected and highly regarded studies on depression, in the US. The second study is actually in the manufacturer's insert (Youdim)! The reason deprenyl is rarely used in depression is mainly based on the first study from my other post that stated that MAO-B inhibition alone was simply not enough to battle depression unless used at non-selective doses (above 15mg- usually ranging from 30-60mg), but part of a potentially profound solution for this. Not to mention protection of brain cells from neurotoxicity. Scientists involved in studies of life-extension are well aware of it's benefits. There have been studies that you can actually use this if you happened to be an MDMA user (which I'm not) and prevent that damage due to neurotoxicity (cell damage) that occurs in multiple users or MPTP toxins from heroin use. There is much, much more that I haven't even mentioned yet and for good reason as it's not really relevant to the subject of depression. Sexual rejuvination for obvious well-explained reasons (just read other people's posts on their use of it- search for it). And Klonopin dosage I want for the morning for anxiety/phobia symptoms, which are almost as equally important to me as it impacts a large part of my everyday life, could also serve as a safeguard against possible insomnia from over-stimulation. Interestingly, (search Babble with the words "selegline" and "klonopin") getting to sleep should be a breeze and is only enhanced by the selegiline or other MAOI's such as Nardil. Both of these, however, are not near as effective by themselves. You know about deprenyl by now, but sole klonopin use can affect some people's short-term memory. But, I'm not disagreeing about the fact that I may not respond like the others or the 60 or 70% of the patients from the studies. NOT EVERY PERSON REACTS THE SAME TO A SPECIFIC MEDICATION.
>
> > > The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.< < <.
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Deprenyl is the least bit dangerous. The only side effects ever reported in people without digenerative brain diseases were agitation, insomnia, and nausea (usually due to too much of a specific transmitter). Deprenyl is reported in most human studies to be well tolerated. *Typically, no abnormalities are noted in blood pressure, laboratory valves, ECG, or EEG (Tolbert, S. & Fuller, M. - 1996 - "Selegiline in the treatment of behavioral and cognitive symptoms of Alzheimer disease" ANN PHARMACOTHER 30, 1122-29).Remeron? Side Effects: Feeling sleepy, dizzy, or tired - Increased appetite - weight gain - Nausea - Constipation - Dry mouth - Odd or unusual dreams (common)
You know why deprenyl is used rarely by now don't you? It's from assumptions and dismissal based on the fact of the effectiveness of sole MAO-B inhibition alone. However, dosages were quite effective but at non-selective doses (30-60mg) and, ultimately, a low side-effect solution to other MAOI's.
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> > > And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.< < <.
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You could look at it that way but that information is off site. BTW, it's erowid.COM! It informs us all about not only commonly used and abused drugs (informative to the curious and points out pros and cons and by no means encourages drug use) and tell it like it is, but also about all kinds of pharmacutical drugs and vitamins/herbs. Other readers can see for themselves. Quit being so negative. They were one of many sources of information..
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> > > Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.< < <.
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I had somewhat of a stern tone in my last response to you beacuse I was a little perturbed about the fact that I expressed that I was reluctant to try (and would like to avoid if at all possible) and had an extreme dislike for SSRI's because of their sexual side effects. But that is what you go and recommend, saying it would improve my sex life, while also neglecting to mention the large percentage of people that experienced sexual side-effects, i.e. inorgasmia. And all this after I read that you hadn't had sex in 2 years and that was in a drunken state with a fat woman. Plus, you're bipolar (no offense). Extreme highs and lows is the definition and maybe that had something to do with your managable sexual function. I am in a completely different situation and a good 50% at least of men that are unipolar or that take it for anxiety experience sexual side-effects. ABCNews.com reported that that number could be as high as 60% percent of all SSRI's users. That information could have been useful. And my goal, by the way, is to go through as few meds as possible so as to not screw my brain up so bad that it doesn't know whether to make serotonin or bust into a convulsion. You do have the "experience" but that's not neccesarily a good basis for an opinion if your bipolar. Your brain is operating alot different than mine. In your case, I'd be reluctant to give suggestions to people who's diagnosis is completely different than yours as the meds that have worked for you could have a completely different effect on a person with different problems and most likely require different solutions. Same could happen even if the diagnosis was similar to yours but at least you'd be working in familiar territory and therefore would be perfectly acceptable to provide your thoughts and opinions.> (In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
I have a 4.0 GPA and on my way to IT school. Obviously, I know something. I possess a great deal of common sense and an uncanny ability to learn quite fast. I know my problems and have come up with a solution for it based on what i've learned. We'll know who's right after Wednesday. Time will tell...
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> I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!< < <
>
NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE! HOW RUDE. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING??
> 3 Beers.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
> >
> > P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
> >
> Retard writes:
> >
> > > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> > >
> > > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> > >
> > > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> > >
> > > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
> >
> >
> > ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> > >
> > > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> > >
> > > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> > >
> > > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
> >
> > Butthead.
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poster:Jason911
thread:93294
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020208/msgs/93558.html