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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JohnL on September 28, 1999, at 18:21:14
A girl participant at another depression forum just committed suicide. I was stunned. It's hard to read someone's post, and then a few days later realize that person is dead. I was just a forum spectator, not a poster, but it still took me by surprise. Rude awakening. It made me realize that even though many of us are far from being as well as we would like to be, and we deal with all sorts of difficult side effects, we aren't usually in as much pain as that girl was. I've been terrifyingly close to being that ill at times, and I'm sure many of you have too, but I feel fortunate to have never crossed that line. Once again, if friends and family could have understood the nature of the beast a little better, maybe things would be different. May she rest in peace.
Posted by Tammy on September 28, 1999, at 20:37:32
In reply to Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by JohnL on September 28, 1999, at 18:21:14
>This is so very sad.I to have "thought" all my probs were not worth living to deal with,Thanks God I have always changed my mind.I guess that is God's way of saying "I am worthy to live"
We all have so much in life to deal with and we have to do what we have to,to get through the day,even though it is not always easy.I would hate to lose someone from this board,we are all here to help each other =o)
I am sorry for that girl and her family,my prayers are with them,and all of you to!!
*May She Rest In Peace*A girl participant at another depression forum just committed suicide. I was stunned. It's hard to read someone's post, and then a few days later realize that person is dead. I was just a forum spectator, not a poster, but it still took me by surprise. Rude awakening. It made me realize that even though many of us are far from being as well as we would like to be, and we deal with all sorts of difficult side effects, we aren't usually in as much pain as that girl was. I've been terrifyingly close to being that ill at times, and I'm sure many of you have too, but I feel fortunate to have never crossed that line. Once again, if friends and family could have understood the nature of the beast a little better, maybe things would be different. May she rest in peace.
Posted by Noa on September 28, 1999, at 20:53:15
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by Tammy on September 28, 1999, at 20:37:32
So sorry to hear the news, John. I think it is often hard to know beforehand if and when someone is really intent on killing themselves.
Posted by et tu on September 28, 1999, at 21:04:28
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by Noa on September 28, 1999, at 20:53:15
In some of my world wearier moments I have had song like Dancing in the Dark and lines from the MASH theme song ('Suicide is painless and it brings on many changes, you can take or leave it if you please) flash through my mind again, again, again and again and... Obviously it is not painless, however it may bring relief to those who go there, while afflicting those who remain with paroxyms of guilt and remorse. In the end it is a choice and who is to say that those who make that choice have chosen wrongly.
Posted by Dee on September 28, 1999, at 22:00:18
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by et tu on September 28, 1999, at 21:04:55
I cannot see myself going there. But I understand and can relate how someone might choose to. I do not even want to consider if it is a good or bad thing when that happens, that is an academic gusetion.
Somehow, when I think about how lonely one must be when walking that road, I am filled with tears.
Dee
Posted by elle on September 29, 1999, at 8:19:01
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by Dee on September 28, 1999, at 22:00:18
As a child of a parent who choice was suicide I can tell you there is always someone who cares. You don't have to walk alone. All you have to do is reach out for the hand that is reaching to you. The pain of losing someone to suicide is unbearable. It haunts me everyday. I think that if I had told him I loved him one more time he wouldn't have done it. Reality is he wasn't thinking of me. He wasn't thinking. The disease had blacked the thoughts. Or at least that's what I believe. I'll never understand.
elle
Posted by et tu on September 29, 1999, at 8:48:50
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by elle on September 29, 1999, at 8:19:01
I've had three people I went to school with commit suicide. All bright, seemingly capable individiuals from good families. One had a wonderful wife and two youg sons and they all still live with the loss every day, and suffer to the degree that they feel they could have done something more. And maybe they could have and maybe nothing would have made a difference once the path was determined, despite all best intentions.
I know that loving gestures have reached me when I've been on the edge. And I've also gone over that edge, unsuccessfully, a couple of times when I was so weighed down with my own doubts that I could see no other option.
Somehow, I survived despite myself, generally unscathed. And sometimes I wish I had succeeded, oftentimes am indifferent whether I live or die and sometimes even feel grateful to be alive. Generally I haven't made much a contribution to society or myself, despite some spirited efforts and an upbringing that didnt't lack for much, inclluding love as was the case with my friends. And often that is not enough, as was their case as they were all well loved but evidently didn't love themselves or their lives enough. They made the choice they did and no-one can claim that they could have persuaded them differently because they didn't. So, elle, please don't blame yourself for what happened because doubtless you did the best you knew how and doubtless so did your son.
>... All you have to do is reach out for the hand that is reaching to you. The pain of losing someone to suicide is unbearable. It haunts me everyday. I think that if I had told him I loved him one more time he wouldn't have done it. Reality is he wasn't thinking of me. He wasn't thinking. The disease had blacked the thoughts. Or at least that's what I believe. I'll never understand.
>
> elle
Posted by Janet on September 29, 1999, at 10:15:15
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by et tu on September 29, 1999, at 8:48:50
> I've had three people I went to school with commit suicide. All bright, seemingly capable individiuals from good families. One had a wonderful wife and two youg sons and they all still live with the loss every day, and suffer to the degree that they feel they could have done something more. And maybe they could have and maybe nothing would have made a difference once the path was determined, despite all best intentions.
>
> I know that loving gestures have reached me when I've been on the edge. And I've also gone over that edge, unsuccessfully, a couple of times when I was so weighed down with my own doubts that I could see no other option.
>
> Somehow, I survived despite myself, generally unscathed. And sometimes I wish I had succeeded, oftentimes am indifferent whether I live or die and sometimes even feel grateful to be alive. Generally I haven't made much a contribution to society or myself, despite some spirited efforts and an upbringing that didnt't lack for much, inclluding love as was the case with my friends. And often that is not enough, as was their case as they were all well loved but evidently didn't love themselves or their lives enough. They made the choice they did and no-one can claim that they could have persuaded them differently because they didn't. So, elle, please don't blame yourself for what happened because doubtless you did the best you knew how and doubtless so did your son.
>
> >... All you have to do is reach out for the hand that is reaching to you. The pain of losing someone to suicide is unbearable. It haunts me everyday. I think that if I had told him I loved him one more time he wouldn't have done it. Reality is he wasn't thinking of me. He wasn't thinking. The disease had blacked the thoughts. Or at least that's what I believe. I'll never understand.
> >
> > elle
Suicide is something that happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with that pain.I read that on the internet and remembered as how I feel at times.
Janet
Posted by Bob on September 29, 1999, at 10:59:10
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by Janet on September 29, 1999, at 10:15:15
Before I joined this board, about mid-August, I was two steps from the edge myself. The rational part of my mind, almost from a distance, keeps trying to tell me that the scariest part about it all is that this isn't a rude awakening for me. Having tried and failed once, when I was an undergrad years ago, somehow broke the "safety" mechanism -- I'll never be able to forget what I am capable of doing.
We all have our unique experiences that, all the same, are sooo familiar to one another. I can't say how others who have gone as far (but not too far) as I did see suicide, but here's my two cents.
There's this black void. You'll never know what's in it by looking, only by going. Maybe it's God, maybe it's peace, freedom from pain, or just one deep, unending sleep. But not knowing creates a fear of it -- a very, well, "healthy" fear.
If you haven't lost that fear, you walk up to the brink face first. You stare, you scream, you try to touch it. If no one has noticed you by now, you may even try to fall into it. But trying to fall forward is so hard -- you've got to get your center of gravity up over and across the balls of your feet and maybe you just don't have the energy, so you fall back away on your own (that was me). Maybe it just takes you so long that someone finally notices, grabs your arms, and pulls you back.
Now, if you've lost that fear of the void -- and I don't think that anyone who has not been through the pain we've been through can even understand how its possible -- if you've lost that fear, all that is left is trust. In a loving and forgiving God. In a sleep that is free from pain. In the possiblity that even if the void is just the void, that such total negation, annihilation, is still free from pain. You put your back to the void, for one last look at what you're leaving behind -- but your mind is already made up. There's nothing left to say. So you tip your head back, your shoulders, you roll back over your heels -- a trust fall into the void.
For those who don't know, a trust fall is a team-building activity often used in orienteering or outdoors education activities, when often you'll be doing group activities that require a lot of trust in one another. You need some sort of platform that is about shoulder height, for the person taking the fall. Everyone except the faller stands below, in two rows facing one another, arms extended and alternating between rows, hands in fists to protect the fingers. One person stands at the ends of the rows, to let the faller know when all is ready and to catch the faller's head safely. The faller stands on the platform, heels to the edge, facing away from the rows, arms folded across the chest. When everyone is ready, the faller leans back, leading with the head and shoulders so that you don't "jackknife" and fall butt first (called a butt fudge ;^) but, instead, flat as a board. People who butt fudge tend to reach back to try to catch themselves. But if you roll back, head first, body straight, you get a few seconds of freefall before your team safely catches you.Falling backwards like that requires a high degree of trust, and it's extremely exhilirating.
I can't blame or condemn anyone who has taken that fall, like many do. I can only grieve for the family of that woman (since grief is only for the living), and pray that she found the peace she sought.
Reporting several miles from the edge, thanfully,
Bob
Posted by elle on September 29, 1999, at 21:41:02
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by Bob on September 29, 1999, at 10:59:10
> Before I joined this board, about mid-August, I was two steps from the edge myself. The rational part of my mind, almost from a distance, keeps trying to tell me that the scariest part about it all is that this isn't a rude awakening for me. Having tried and failed once, when I was an undergrad years ago, somehow broke the "safety" mechanism -- I'll never be able to forget what I am capable of doing.
>
> We all have our unique experiences that, all the same, are sooo familiar to one another. I can't say how others who have gone as far (but not too far) as I did see suicide, but here's my two cents.
>
> There's this black void. You'll never know what's in it by looking, only by going. Maybe it's God, maybe it's peace, freedom from pain, or just one deep, unending sleep. But not knowing creates a fear of it -- a very, well, "healthy" fear.
>
> If you haven't lost that fear, you walk up to the brink face first. You stare, you scream, you try to touch it. If no one has noticed you by now, you may even try to fall into it. But trying to fall forward is so hard -- you've got to get your center of gravity up over and across the balls of your feet and maybe you just don't have the energy, so you fall back away on your own (that was me). Maybe it just takes you so long that someone finally notices, grabs your arms, and pulls you back.
>
> Now, if you've lost that fear of the void -- and I don't think that anyone who has not been through the pain we've been through can even understand how its possible -- if you've lost that fear, all that is left is trust. In a loving and forgiving God. In a sleep that is free from pain. In the possiblity that even if the void is just the void, that such total negation, annihilation, is still free from pain. You put your back to the void, for one last look at what you're leaving behind -- but your mind is already made up. There's nothing left to say. So you tip your head back, your shoulders, you roll back over your heels -- a trust fall into the void.
>
>
> For those who don't know, a trust fall is a team-building activity often used in orienteering or outdoors education activities, when often you'll be doing group activities that require a lot of trust in one another. You need some sort of platform that is about shoulder height, for the person taking the fall. Everyone except the faller stands below, in two rows facing one another, arms extended and alternating between rows, hands in fists to protect the fingers. One person stands at the ends of the rows, to let the faller know when all is ready and to catch the faller's head safely. The faller stands on the platform, heels to the edge, facing away from the rows, arms folded across the chest. When everyone is ready, the faller leans back, leading with the head and shoulders so that you don't "jackknife" and fall butt first (called a butt fudge ;^) but, instead, flat as a board. People who butt fudge tend to reach back to try to catch themselves. But if you roll back, head first, body straight, you get a few seconds of freefall before your team safely catches you.
>
> Falling backwards like that requires a high degree of trust, and it's extremely exhilirating.
>
> I can't blame or condemn anyone who has taken that fall, like many do. I can only grieve for the family of that woman (since grief is only for the living), and pray that she found the peace she sought.
>
> Reporting several miles from the edge, thanfully,
> BobI don't know what to say to this post other than it gave me a mixed bag of emotions. The tears actually felt warm and comforting. I hope he is at peace. That's my only comfort.
elle
Posted by Noa on September 29, 1999, at 22:26:10
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by elle on September 29, 1999, at 21:41:02
Impulsive thoughts of suicide have been visitors to me in times of major depression. When in the worst kind of pain, I have spent a lot of time grappling with the urge to escape it all, but have always felt I wouldn't do anything because of guilt about the effects on family and others. This summer, I hit a new low, when I began to do mental manipulations to try to figure out a way to somehow convince those people that my suicide would be the right decision, and for them not to feel bad. This all remained in my head. My lowest point was when I realized I wasn't feeling impulsive suicidal thoughts, but the feeling of wanting to plan it out just right, to wait until the right moment, when I had it all "figured out". I even felt like keeping it a secret from my therapist, which had not been the case before (all previous times when I had suicidal feelings and thoughts, I told him/of course I also was fairly sure I would never act on those impulsive thoughts). But this time, I felt a certain kind of determination to plan it out, keep it to myself and choose exactly the right time to carry it out. What happened was that in my therapy session, I realized I couldn't lie to my therapist. I felt conflicted through much of the session and finally told him, which was a good thing. The extra structure he provided by making me agree to a safety contract helped. I needed the structure from outside myself, because obviously my thinking had become distorted. It was actually easy to comply, like putting myself on autopilot. I basically stopped letting myself think about suicide at all, like following orders. It was kind of wierd, but it worked until my medication kicked in. All of this wasn't too long ago, just before I joined this board.
I can't say I am totally convinced I feel my life is worth the effort at this point, but I am willing to suspend judgement. In the meantime, I have been feeling increasingly better, and guess what, when you stop being very depressed, you keep busy with stuff and fill your head with other things besides those awful existential questions about whether life has meaning or is worth living, etc. And, I noticed that I was able to ask a friend to keep me company the other day, cause I knew if I spent too much time alone, I would get depressed again. That is something I could not have done while in my state of despair.
For those who have lost someone to suicide, I guess my thoughts are that you can do a lot , but not everything. A suicidal person can get really good at keeping others out of the loop. I think it is part of the syndrome, to be able to decieve the people who might be able to help. In hindsight the survivors can see so many signs and signals and clues, but that is hindsight. Those signs and signals only have the meaning they have after the fact, when you are able to put the puzzle together. While it is happening, they are usually perceived as random and meaningless. The important signals, the suicidal person has learned to keep hidden.
I also think that for someone who has been suicidal before, the onset of serious suicidal intentions can come on extremely suddenly without warning. They might Never experience suicidal thoughts again for the rest of their life, or they might all of a sudden be possessed with them. I don't know if it is some sort of disinhibition thing that makes us vulnerable this way. But it is almost impossible to tell if this will happen and to whom.Don't know if my thoughts make sense to y'all, but thanks for being there for me to share them.
Noa
Posted by Noa on September 29, 1999, at 22:37:27
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession..., posted by Noa on September 29, 1999, at 22:26:10
PS...this wasn't the first time I was at risk. Many years ago, right after college, I had a few rough years when I felt impulsive suicidal thoughts. I would sometimes feel like I wasn't going to be able to keep myself from acting on them. I once experimented with a razor to the wrist, and found I was way too chicken to do anything more than scratch. I put myself in the hospital for a few days when I found myself heading to a bridge over the Charles River armed with a whopping dose of trazodone,the idea being I would combine oversedation and a leap. That is the closest I got, and I stopped myself by walking to the emergency room instead. I actually started to get better after the hospitalization, not because it was any great therapy, but actually because it was pretty pathetic and I was kind of startled into finding some inner resources once I saw there weren't any out there that could do any more than lock me up to keep me from doing any self harm. BTW, that hospitalization was care of one of the early versions of managed care...HCHP, which was bought out by Oxford in the late 80's. Interestingly enough, the HCHP patients actually got better care than the others, because a psychiatric nurse came to see us every day to check on our progress. Otherwise, the hospital staff provided minimal professional services. And, they would have let me stay a much longer while than I wanted to, I convinced them to let me out after three days. How times have changed.
Posted by Noa on September 29, 1999, at 22:39:36
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession...PS, posted by Noa on September 29, 1999, at 22:37:27
BTW, HCHP was not for profit. I wonder if they got bought out by Oxford because they couldn't make a go of it by providing that level of service.
Posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 0:03:14
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession..., posted by Noa on September 29, 1999, at 22:26:10
> Don't know if my thoughts make sense to y'all, but thanks for being there for me to share them.
I hear you loud and clear. I don't have impulsive thoughts of suicide anymore. At least, not any that I take seriously. That little nasty voice can pop up at opportune low spells during the good times, but I laught that off before the thought is finished.
My thoughts of suicide are planful, calculating, and driven. Last month, I made sure I didn't let anything leak. I didn't want my girlfriend to know. I didn't want my co-workers or family to know. I didn't want my pdoc to know. But like you, Noa, I can't lie to my therapist. It's the only safety I have left. As soon as things got planful, I fessed up to her before it got too consuming.
Somehow, letting out the secret spoiled the plan.
One of the worst things about the human mind is that it tries to complete a picture when it doesn't have enough information. It's so easy for those left behind to find needles in haystacks of blame and rationalized how they could have done something. That may be true for the more impulsive suicides -- the cries for help that cry too weakly. But when someone turns their fear of death to faith for relief, I doubt there are many tracks left behind.
Bob
Posted by dove on September 30, 1999, at 9:18:45
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession..., posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 0:03:14
I have a recurring vision of taking my life. When I'm depressed it sits in my mind like salvation. But, all my tears and apathy don't mature the vision. Sometimes I sink lower because my mind views this as failure and a deep moral weakness, that is, the inability to accomplish this act. When I come out of that dark place and regain some energy I am intent on fulfilling this end. My mind rolls the process over and over, with absolute clarity in the wisdom of doing a disappearing act. My mantra is that my children would greatly benefit from this.
THEN, I am up too high, my intellect apparently forgets and dismisses these ideas as hogwash. I turn that corner full-speed ahead. And, the cycle begins again.
Just 2 days ago, I was right there, looking forward to the future, convinced that there was hope. Pleased with this new enlightenment that would give me definition and some tools to fight the beast. Yesterday I fell down hard, I could hardly move, although I was able to still connect with my kids and love them, which is a good sign. But yesterday I couldn't see it, today I'm able to write with some clarity and hindsight.
I am angry for some reason, I am angry at my brain and the doctors and the beast. I don't want this thing, even if it has a name. Yuck! I can feel myself emerging to higher ground as I write this, I just needed to ramble on I guess.
Thank you all for being here, I cannot express my gratitude enough, for this place is a shelter for my weary mind.
~dove
Posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 10:20:09
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession..., posted by dove on September 30, 1999, at 9:18:45
> Thank you all for being here, I cannot express my gratitude enough, for this place is a shelter for my weary mind.
> ~doveI just hope you know that as much as you receive from this board, you have given back a greater share with your own words.
There was something you mentioned that was so familiar. It sounds like you cycle through it often enough, but I only was there once. When I tried and failed, I was already convinced about how little good I could ever accomplish. Failing at killing myself was so ironic but so fitting, it seemed like some sort of cosmic joke. Although I did feel even lower than I had when I had made up my mind, all I could do was laugh. I still laugh about it -- but the self-mocking tone has left.
Bob
Posted by Noa on September 30, 1999, at 18:16:34
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession...Dove, posted by Bob on September 30, 1999, at 10:20:09
DOve, ramble on. It helps you, and for me, reading what you write helps me too. What kinds of support are you getting? You seem to have your hands full--lots of responsibility. Who is supporting you?
Posted by Thumper on September 30, 1999, at 20:39:19
In reply to Re: Suicide-Rude Awakening, posted by elle on September 29, 1999, at 8:19:01
I lost my mother to suicide when I was 14. That was 26 years ago. It's amazing to me how that one life lost had such a ripple affect on so many people. In the midst of deep depression (been there....)it seems like you are alone in the world. But I can attest to seeing even our mailman cry when he heard about mom's death. Depressed people don't seem to see the love around them.
My mothers death impacted our family like a bomb blast. Instead of pulling together, we all ran off in different directions. All these years later, its still the same way.
This is the sort of loss you never get over - you just get used to it.
T
Posted by Tom on September 30, 1999, at 22:01:11
In reply to elle - me too, posted by Thumper on September 30, 1999, at 20:39:19
> I lost my mother to suicide when I was 14. That was 26 years ago. It's amazing to me how that one life lost had such a ripple affect on so many people. In the midst of deep depression (been there....)it seems like you are alone in the world. But I can attest to seeing even our mailman cry when he heard about mom's death. Depressed people don't seem to see the love around them.
>
> My mothers death impacted our family like a bomb blast. Instead of pulling together, we all ran off in different directions. All these years later, its still the same way.
>
> This is the sort of loss you never get over - you just get used to it.
>
> TDad died when I was 7, in front of my very eyes. We were an ethnic family which was tightly woven. We completely scattered. It just so happens that everyone else suffered when Dad died, except little Tom (that's me) took 20 years to deal with the bomb blast. It's funny how life moves in a circle.
Posted by dove on October 1, 1999, at 13:51:09
In reply to Re: Suicide-Another confession...Dove, posted by Noa on September 30, 1999, at 18:16:34
Noa~ Thank you for caring :-) My support consists of my husband, my therapist (who doesn't understand me :-)) And this amazing board. It is so impressive, the support on this board. I have never seen so much honesty and kinship, despite all the different disorders and unique personalities(or maybe because of). Thank you again.
~dove> DOve, ramble on. It helps you, and for me, reading what you write helps me too. What kinds of support are you getting? You seem to have your hands full--lots of responsibility. Who is supporting you?
This is the end of the thread.
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