Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 575925

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Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 19:23:11

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by linkadge on November 6, 2005, at 19:06:14

Hmm... what was your lithium dose,
how long where you on it, how much
do you weigh, and what was your diagnosis?
Also, was your thyroid checked?

Of course you don't have to answer if
these questions are personal for you.

Squiggles

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by flmm on November 6, 2005, at 19:25:06

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 19:23:11

The legal pain killers are the ones I am refering to! ie. Vicoden etc...

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 19:55:59

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by flmm on November 6, 2005, at 19:25:06

> The legal pain killers are the ones I am refering to! ie. Vicoden etc...

Oh I see. If other drugs work for your depression
that is to be preferred of course. But I would
not be bothered by "addiction" of opiates. It
is easier to withdraw from these than from benzos,
especially some benzos which are impossible to
withdraw from.

If an addicting drug was really good for depression and could be managed by a doctor
so that the increments would not hurt your
health any more than the customary ADs, I
would say they were better.

But in your case they are not and I can
understand that. BTW, benzos do work for
back pain, esp. clonazepam, which is very
addicting but has miminum tolerance.

Squiggles

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by linkadge on November 6, 2005, at 20:29:02

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 19:23:11

My lithium dose (this time around) was 600mg, although I have been as high as 1500mg (for 7 months)

My diagnosis is unipolar depression (by most doctors) and bipolar disorder by 2 doctors.

I weigh about 140 pounds.

Thyroid is good.


Linkadge

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by linkadge on November 6, 2005, at 20:31:00

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 19:55:59

I think addiction potential again, also depends on the person.

I had zero problem getting off 3mg of clonazepam, but had a hell of a time getting off codiene.


Linkadge

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 20:38:52

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by linkadge on November 6, 2005, at 20:29:02

> My lithium dose (this time around) was 600mg, although I have been as high as 1500mg (for 7 months)
>

Doctors tend to start you high (1200mg) esp.
if you are manic, and lower it after 6 months,
given blood stability monitoring.

I take 900mg - anything more would be toxic
now and anything less (judging by my unlucky
break with the pharmaceutical supplier) would
be catastrophic.

I have read that lithium (in itself or as
an adjunct is give for unipolar) but I have
not seen it work in some of my friends.
I think it would work in acute severe depression
to lift you out of it -- after that, I don't
know - unipolar and bipolar brains may be
different.

> My diagnosis is unipolar depression (by most doctors) and bipolar disorder by 2 doctors.

Diagnosis is not an easy thing right now -
maybe future neurologic correlations will
solve that. I now *know* I am bipolar by
the serendipitous mistate made by the pharmacy --
no mistaking it. Before that, even one of my doctors was unsure.


>
> I weigh about 140 pounds.

900mg lithium should do it.
>
> Thyroid is good.

Hypo or hyper is important for lithium dosing.

Squiggles
>

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 21:02:24

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by linkadge on November 6, 2005, at 20:31:00

> I think addiction potential again, also depends on the person.

:-}
>
> I had zero problem getting off 3mg of clonazepam, but had a hell of a time getting off codiene.
>
>
Like any addicting drug (and even ADs which
are not said to be addicting per se but
withdrawal brings on the notorious "discontinuation syndrome"), certain variables
play a role in how difficult getting off
will be:

- time the drug has been taken

- dose that has been taken during that time

- abrupt or slow discontinuation from the
drug

- other drugs causing a cross tolerance;

- and last, very last, the non-physical aspect
of withdrawal -- the personality of the person;
but I believe that if you give the same amount
of crack to Clint Eastwood and to Woody Allen,
under the same conditions, they will have
equal difficulty in getting off.

The same rule of pharmacology applies to
many drugs - if not, the preparation would
of pharmaceuticals would have to be tailored
differently for every single individual on
the planet, give or take a few pounds and
personal quirks.

Squiggles


 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Phillipa on November 6, 2005, at 21:04:37

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 20:38:52

Great Thread! And it's amazing that we are so different. The laudaum[sp] you mentioned? Was given to women for anxiety. Can't forget that in Vicorian days people didn't live to be old. Who can say what would happen if they had. And in France when so many people drink wine a lot what is their depression rate. Hey do we have any people from France posting here? Can't remember anyone saying they were from there. Fondly, Phillipa

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by fuchsia on November 6, 2005, at 22:25:37

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 21:02:24

> > I had zero problem getting off 3mg of clonazepam, but had a hell of a time getting off codiene.
> >
> >
> Like any addicting drug (and even ADs which
> are not said to be addicting per se but
> withdrawal brings on the notorious "discontinuation syndrome"), certain variables
> play a role in how difficult getting off
> will be:
>
> - time the drug has been taken
>
> - dose that has been taken during that time
>
> - abrupt or slow discontinuation from the
> drug
>
> - other drugs causing a cross tolerance;

Yes; I had the reverse; relatively little problem (not nothing but *relatively* little) coming off codeine but coming off clonazepam was nearly the death of me. I was on the clonazepam for 11 years though.

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2005, at 9:00:27

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 20:38:52

It always seems to have an initial effect, an initial feeling of "things are going to get better" which lasts for about 2 weeks, and then I feel pretty much the same, only slower which leads me to feel that things will get worse.

Linadge

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2005, at 9:07:15

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 21:02:24

I dropped effexor in one day, and never felt anything really. SLS also reported having little withdrawl from effexor (if I recall), yet others write books about it.

Its the same with alcohol. We already know that mice can be bread to show a significant addition to it, while other mice don't seem to have the same problems.

Addiction and tollerance are not equal from person to person.


Linkadge


 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2005, at 9:10:17

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by fuchsia on November 6, 2005, at 22:25:37

Clonazepam was not a problem. I experienced some mild anxiety for less than a week. (mind you I was prescribed it for unknown reasons).

Codiene withdrawl went on for ever. Vomiting, unexplained aches and pains, sensitivity to light and sound, deep melancholy etc..

Linkadge

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2005, at 9:13:01

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by linkadge on November 7, 2005, at 9:07:15

> I dropped effexor in one day, and never felt anything really. SLS also reported having little withdrawl from effexor (if I recall), yet others write books about it.
>
> Its the same with alcohol. We already know that mice can be bread to show a significant addition to it, while other mice don't seem to have the same problems.
>
> Addiction and tollerance are not equal from person to person.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
----------

I had no trouble withdrawing from lithium at all
and this is after more than 20 years of taking it
daily. BUT when I hit the "below narrow therapeutic index" I became very ill - it was
a struggle to get out of that illness - 30 days.

Not all ADs or APs are the same with regard
to withdrawal. I understand from reading the
net for 5 years that many people have trouble
withdrawing fromt he SSRIs - a completely different class from mood-stabilizers, and my
friend once tried getting off tricyclics and
definitely needed a long "wash-out period" to
avoid withdrawal syndrome.

So, perhaps another variable to be considered
in addition to the ones i listed, is the *type*
of drug.

Squiggles

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2005, at 9:24:10

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by linkadge on November 7, 2005, at 9:10:17

Most doctors acknowledge the difficulty
of clonazepam withdrawal - it takes a
generation for drug performance to manifest
itself in the medical arena.

I would very much like to know if Roche
has a secret about this drug. I think
it's different from all the other benzos.

Squiggles

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects... Squiggles

Posted by Phillipa on November 7, 2005, at 17:34:25

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects..., posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2005, at 9:24:10

Funny that before I learned here that klonopin is more potent than valium, ativan, xanax, etc. I was always told a benzo is a benzo by a pdoc. And maybe it was because I didn't know that I never had any problem switching them. Fondly, Phillipa

 

Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects...

Posted by Squiggles on November 7, 2005, at 17:42:15

In reply to Re: effexor is supposed to have opiod effects... Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on November 7, 2005, at 17:34:25

> Funny that before I learned here that klonopin is more potent than valium, ativan, xanax, etc. I was always told a benzo is a benzo by a pdoc. And maybe it was because I didn't know that I never had any problem switching them. Fondly, Phillipa


I think the chemists know what's up first,
the doctors second, the patients third,
and the drug companies last - after the
stocks go down, lol.

Squiggles

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia Squiggles

Posted by neuroman on November 7, 2005, at 22:37:06

In reply to Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 9:19:44

Hi,

Isn't anhedonia a dopamine disorder? Or perhaps I should say a "lack of dopamine" disorder. From what I know (which isn't a lot) dopamine is the neurotransmitter most responsible for pleasure seeking.

By the way I definitely agree with your thoughts on the TCAs. It took amitriptyline 3 1/2 years to do what nature would have taken 30 years to do, that is, turn me from a young man into an old man. And an unhealthy, depressed, anhedonic old man at that. I believe that taking it damaged my cardiovascular system and stopping it damaged my nervous system. Oh yea it's a real winner alright!

I guess I need to add the usual disclaimer now. While this drug messed me up i'm sure many others have found it to be very effective and yada yada yada blah blah blah etc etc and so on an so forth...

Hang in there,
Paul

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia

Posted by Squiggles on November 8, 2005, at 7:21:46

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia Squiggles, posted by neuroman on November 7, 2005, at 22:37:06

Unfortunately, there is not much choice
right now for severe depression- it's either
the Tri way or the highway.

Dopamine - yes i have heard it makes you
happy, but I don't know much about neurochemistry.

Squiggles

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia

Posted by neuroman on November 8, 2005, at 9:25:07

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by Squiggles on November 8, 2005, at 7:21:46

Hi,

> Unfortunately, there is not much choice
> right now for severe depression- it's either
> the Tri way or the highway.

I hear ya'. No doubt about it, it did help my depression. I wish I had taken a "cleaner" one like desiprimine. More importantly, I wish I had tapered off of it a lot more slowly, even though I did taper more slowly than they say is necessary. I felt physically horrendous for months after I stopped. I think the withdrawal caused some excitotoxic damage to my system. I've heard adding bupropion has helped some people taper off of some of the tricyclics more easily. Wish I had known that at the time...

> Dopamine - yes i have heard it makes you
> happy,

Dopamine transmission increases in certain parts of the brain when we desire something or when we expect a reward or are having feelings of anticipation. If the desire is met or the reward attained than dopamine levels stay high and we feel good. If the desire is not met or the reward is not attained than dopamine levels drop off. We have a word for this..."frustration". This is a huge simplification of the process but it does make sense. At least to my screwed up brain. :-)

Paul

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia

Posted by Squiggles on November 8, 2005, at 9:38:39

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by neuroman on November 8, 2005, at 9:25:07

Paul,

Even with lithium, even with nicotine,
even with alcohol, even with sugar,
taken for a very long time, when you
stop certain changes take place.

I have a theory about psychiatric drugs--
i think they change neural chemistry and maybe
even brain structure. I think Dr. Torrey might
agree with that. How much and how long
depends on many things. Reversing is also
a problem.

I am posting Dr. Preskorn's site here in case
it may be of some help. Maybe you could write
to him - he looks like one the best, in the
States anyway:

http://www.preskorn.com/columns/0003.html

Good luck,

Squiggles

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia

Posted by neuroman on November 8, 2005, at 10:24:48

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by Squiggles on November 8, 2005, at 9:38:39

Hi again,

I agree with everything you said. How a particular substance effects an individual depends on that person's biology. With me I've found that I've become very sensitive to meds that effect ion channels and/or the release of glutamate. (i.e. elavil, neurontin, lamictal) These meds seem to effect me at much lower doses than most people. And I have a horrible time tying to stop them. I think this reflects a possible sensitization of some part of my nervous system and I think this sensitization has to do with the NMDA receptor. I can't prove it yet but I'm trying. One way I'm going to attempt to address this is by raising my very low dopamine levels. Dopamine antagonizes the NMDA receptor, so in effect, low dopamine levels may be responsible for the "over-active" NMDA receptors. Anyway, it's become my life's mission to find a doctor to work with who is knowledgable in neuropsychopharmacology. Not an easy task.

By the way, thanks for the Preskorn tip. Not only have I visited the site, I've printed out his entire book. :-)

Paul

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia

Posted by linkadge on November 8, 2005, at 13:43:21

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by neuroman on November 8, 2005, at 10:24:48

Some of the smartest doctors who initially discovered the antidepressant effects of the TCA's likened their actions to the amphetamines.

When one is taking a drug based on supposed neurochemical abnormalities that may or may not exist, one runs the risk of creating neurochemical abnormaities that never existed.

Linkadge


 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia

Posted by Squiggles on November 8, 2005, at 14:29:14

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2005, at 13:43:21

> Some of the smartest doctors who initially discovered the antidepressant effects of the TCA's likened their actions to the amphetamines.
>
> When one is taking a drug based on supposed neurochemical abnormalities that may or may not exist, one runs the risk of creating neurochemical abnormaities that never existed.
>
> Linkadge

I don't doubt that neurochemical abnormalities
must exist in order to get abnormal mental
states - the question is *what* abnormalities
and if common to more than one mental derangement.

Among the head injuries I have had in my life
(not many), two of them, which may have been
cerebrovascular, like encephalic hypertension
in withdrawal from a K when I was sweating for
a year and my head felt "on fire", and the recent
bang on the head concussion--i noticed two
interesting phenomena in both distinct cases:

- depression (transient thank God)

- and a craving for citrus fruits which I hate.

It's not a mystery that concussions create
depression, nor strokes for that matter - why? It's not the same as a genetic
marker.

As for the craving for citrus, darn if I know.

As Dr. Torrey has said, many diverse factors
from genetic to viral to bacterial to physical
to chemical can result in neurochemical
abnormalities. But in order to have depression,
perhaps the identical neurochemical abnormality
may exist. In analogous terms, you can have
suffer a bruise of the same intensity and the
same duration and call it b1, but the causes
may vary. It's still a bruise.

Squiggles
>
>
>
>

 

Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia linkadge

Posted by neuroman on November 8, 2005, at 19:24:23

In reply to Re: Tricyclics and anhedonia, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2005, at 13:43:21

Hi,

>Some of the smartest doctors who initially
discovered the antidepressant effects of the
TCA's likened their actions to the
amphetamines.

Interesting. I didn't know this.

>When one is taking a drug based on supposed neurochemical abnormalities that may or may not exist, one runs the risk of creating neurochemical abnormaities that never existed.

There is no doubt that elavil created problems for me that I didn't have prior to taking it. The problem that I have with a drug like elavil is that it does to many things. I'll never know which one of it's actions was helping me and which ones were hurting me. I can only make an educated guess based on my experiences with other medications, my family history, various tests that I've had (which may or may not be of any value), and my instincts, etc. But an educated guess is better than an uneducated guess. Right now I'm guessing that my problems have less to do with serotonin and more to do with dopamine and norepinephrine.

Paul

 

Re: Opiates for depression?

Posted by paulbwell on November 9, 2005, at 18:20:31

In reply to Re: Opiates for depression?, posted by Squiggles on November 6, 2005, at 11:11:02

> Hmm, that's interesting. So, I guess
> the chemical composition of opiates
> is not conducive to an anti-depressant
> effect, such as Lexapro, or others.
>
> Squiggles

Hydrocodone seems to help MANY people with, energy, interest, enthusthiasm, like Matt, here on these boards, who takes 5mgs Hycodan 4x daily-alomg with other meds.

Opiates CAN DEFINATELY assist short-medium term, depression.

Cheers


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