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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 129. Go back in thread:
Posted by sleepygirl on January 4, 2006, at 11:58:00
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 11:39:48
> I hadn't thought of it that way...that it might be seen as manipulation. I guess in order for it not to be seen as manipulation I would need to take a more serious OD. But that runs the risk of being put in the hospital.What the???
Posted by LegWarmers on January 4, 2006, at 12:00:12
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 11:39:48
> > > OK, I'm going to try again right now before my next class.
> > >
> > > I'm going to bundle up with my hat and scarf so people will not recognize me.
>
> I did it! I did it! I made an appointment for Tues. Geez, I'm hot. lol
>Very happy for you!
> > >
> > > Let's see if I can do it. If I can't do this, I might need an excuse, like a mini OD.
> > >
> > > Deneb
> >
> > I don't see the logic? People go to a pdoc to prevent things like that from happening. An OD might make you look like yyou are manipulating and not be taken seriously. Just tell him you need his help, and why don't you go back to pdoc 1?
>
> I hadn't thought of it that way...that it might be seen as manipulation. I guess in order for it not to be seen as manipulation I would need to take a more serious OD. But that runs the risk of being put in the hospital.why Deneb? That still makes no sense to me? taking a more serious one would run the risk of hurting yourself internally and possibly irreversible consequences. We think we are indestructible but we really are kind vulnerable. If I were you Id try to build the courage to tell the pdoc that this is your logic.
>
> If I'm ever going to OD again, I'd better do it AFTER my semester is over, perhaps in April or the beginning of May. Must remember to not breakdown before my semester is over.
So you ruin your summer? Not a good plan. You have no idea how you will react, even with meticulous planning and calculations! Some weird chemical reaction could be occuring from stress or hormones at the time you take the overdose and voila! you've done it because the dose you so carefully planned was enhanced by your hormones.>
> Phew, that was tough, making that appointment. Now I just gotta calm down for my class at 1:00.
>
> Deneb
>
>Good work, Good luck in class
Posted by JenStar on January 4, 2006, at 13:15:47
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 11:19:36
hi Deneb,
you don't need any excuse other than, "I don't feel right and I want help right now." You don't need to have any other reason!If you come in for help, I'm sure that your doc(s) will be grateful and happy that you're here to get help. They will feel like they are able to help you, which is what they do best.
Don't worry about what people think. F*** anyone who give you grief for getting help! In ten years, or even a month, anybody who saw you going to the clinic will have long forgotten. But if you get help, you'll be MUCH better for it down the road, and you'll never forget the time you made time to help yourself improve your life.
good luck! :)
JenStar
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 13:59:48
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » LegWarmers, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 11:39:48
> > > OK, I'm going to try again right now before my next class.
> > >
> > > I'm going to bundle up with my hat and scarf so people will not recognize me.
>
> I did it! I did it! I made an appointment for Tues. Geez, I'm hot. lolGood. I go lie down now.
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 15:10:33
In reply to GOOD JOB!!! » Deneb, posted by LegWarmers on January 4, 2006, at 12:00:12
>..., and why don't you go back to pdoc 1?
I think pdoc1 is still on maternity leave.
> > I hadn't thought of it that way...that it might be seen as manipulation. I guess in order for it not to be seen as manipulation I would need to take a more serious OD. But that runs the risk of being put in the hospital.
>
> why Deneb? That still makes no sense to me? taking a more serious one would run the risk of hurting yourself internally and possibly irreversible consequences. We think we are indestructible but we really are kind vulnerable. If I were you Id try to build the courage to tell the pdoc that this is your logic.You're right, I was thinking about this after class and it makes no sense. I don't know why I keep thinking I have to OD sooner or later. It's like I'm saying "Jenny, you gotta OD." I don't know why exactly I need to do it.
> > If I'm ever going to OD again, I'd better do it AFTER my semester is over, perhaps in April or the beginning of May. Must remember to not breakdown before my semester is over.
>
>
> So you ruin your summer? Not a good plan. You have no idea how you will react, even with meticulous planning and calculations! Some weird chemical reaction could be occuring from stress or hormones at the time you take the overdose and voila! you've done it because the dose you so carefully planned was enhanced by your hormones.I think the possibility of me miscalculating is low, but I think I see what you mean.
> Good work, Good luck in class
Thanks
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 15:15:52
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 10:44:13
> It'll get much easier, real quickly, if you get this over with.
> Execute the plan.I don't think I would have made the appointment without reading the above.
I'm already having second thoughts about this. I don't know if I made the right decision. Things haven't been *that* bad for me.
I just hate letting my p-docs down by not doing well.
Deneb
Posted by LegWarmers on January 4, 2006, at 16:27:11
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Larry Hoover, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 15:15:52
seeing a pdoc is maintenaince! Its almost like taking a medication. Going only when there is a crisis is not the way it works.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Larry Hoover, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 15:15:52
> I just hate letting my p-docs down by not doing well.
>
> DenebPardon me?
Are you concerned that you are too messed up to manipulate them again, or did I miss something?
You manipulate them (in other words, you lie to them). You don't take the medication prescribed to you. You instead overdose on non-prescribed medication as a game. You post you are too afraid to get help. And when you finally do, you worry about letting them down by not doing well, immediately following a statement that it hasn't been so bad? Moments after you spoke of having to OD again?
I give up. Trying to help you has made me sick. Good luck with this.
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
I got upset and did something impulsive.
I took more than the recommended dose again.
Should I take some antacids to neutralize the acid?
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:19:44
In reply to I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
What I just did was highly manipulative. I'm sorry. Please ignore me. I think giving me attention for hurting myself will only reinforce my behaviour.
I'll be OK. I know what I was doing.
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:54:19
In reply to I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
Can you ignore everything except for the antacid question?
I'm kind of worried about a burning sensation in my stomach.
Thanks
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:57:24
In reply to Re: I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:54:19
HCl in the stomach is much more acidic anyways.
I was just thinking maybe the antacid would lessen the absorption of the ASA.
Oh well, whatever. I didn't take that much.
Posted by Dinah on January 4, 2006, at 18:16:37
In reply to I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
That seems like a question for a doctor.
Perhaps you should call one, or go to an after hours clinic.
Posted by JenStar on January 4, 2006, at 19:35:58
In reply to I got upset *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 17:04:31
Deneb,
you need to see a doctor, emergency room, ASAP. If you took more aspirin or any drug than recommended, antacids are NOT going to be enough to get the med out of your system.Don't further jeopardize your health. Go get help immediately.
JenStar
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 19:44:19
In reply to go to emergency room asap » Deneb, posted by JenStar on January 4, 2006, at 19:35:58
> Deneb,
> you need to see a doctor, emergency room, ASAP. If you took more aspirin or any drug than recommended, antacids are NOT going to be enough to get the med out of your system.
>
> Don't further jeopardize your health. Go get help immediately.
>
> JenStarIt's OK JenStar.
I've taken more than the amount I took today once before seeing pdoc1. I told her about it and she didn't send me to the hospital. I got some ringing in the ears and stuff, but I was OK after a day.
deneb
Posted by Phillipa on January 4, 2006, at 19:53:07
In reply to Re: go to emergency room asap, posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 19:44:19
Besides ringing in the ears you are prone to bleeding and that could be internal bleeding. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 19:53:50
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
((((((Larry)))))))
I'm sorry :-(
Sometimes...
All we can do is remove ourselves...
And not respond.
Because... Yes... Things can get to us and be too draining.I know you have done a lot to try and help
A lot of people here have...I don't think that words like 'manipulative' etc are helpful...
But I do understand the frustration.
Sometimes...
The best thing is simply to not respond.
Because...
Responding only seems to feed the problem.
Sometimes people do need to hit a low...
Before they are prepared to do something to help themself.
And the road to being able to communicate honestly with people (including ones clinicians)
Well... Sometimes one has to learn *how*.I understand that...
But there is no magical way to give someone that knowledge...
And the road can be long and hard.
But the decision to walk along that road...
Nobody can make that decision for another person.
And sometimes trying to coax them into it...
Well...
Therapists see people for an hour or two every week rather than every day for a reason I suppose...
And yeah.
We have our own stuff...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 21:19:58
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
> > I just hate letting my p-docs down by not > Are you concerned that you are too messed up to manipulate them again, or did I miss something?
>Perhaps this is some sort of "tough love" method.
But I don't think labelling someone's behaviour in this case is helpful.You don't know.. you can't know what is going through someone else's mind.
And this is something P.Docs go through all the time. It's not unusual for someone to resist treatment, and there are many reasons for it.
It's part of the illness and sometimes it takes years.
I don't really believe help or offerings of advice should be given with expectations of obedience.
I can understand if you feel that way to not talk about that subject.. but none of us has gone through life without making decisions that frustrate other people.It's a hard hard thing to go through. And sometimes we have to learn from our own mistakes.
Mental illness isn't always convenient for everyone else, and wellness doesn't necessarily run on your time schedule.I've also seen other people who go on and off there medications with regularity, and post about the ensuing upset, and for some reason they don't draw the same criticism as Deneb does.
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 21:29:26
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Deneb, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 16:44:53
> Trying to help you has made me sick.
That was your choice Larry, It's not Deneb's responsibilty.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:16:26
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 19:53:50
"You don't know.. you can't know what is going through someone else's mind."
"I don't think that words like 'manipulative' etc are helpful..."
Don't judge *me*, then.
I am using her words. She has said she manipulates her pdocs. Over and over again.
I got her to make an appointment by using her language. "execute the plan"
I got her to note her behaviour with respect to her pdocs by using her language.
Manipulate. Her language. Meant for her.
Don't tell me how to do my thing.
Do yours. And leave me alone.
Posted by Deneb on January 4, 2006, at 22:23:11
In reply to To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:16:26
Larry,
You sound upset. :-(
I hope you are OK. I don't want you to think about me anymore. Please take care of yourself first Larry. Now I'm worried about you. Please don't get upset on account of me.
Deneb
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
In reply to To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:16:26
I'm sorry.
i am not at all well
i need a babblebreak
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:32:54
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Larry Hoover, posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 21:19:58
Hey. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
But also...
I understand the feeling of frustration and I have sympathy.
And you can understand both at the same time and there is no contradiction in that...
> you can't know what is going through someone else's mind.
Indeed. And quite often... I don't know what is going through my own mind either. I don't know *why* I do some of the things I do. I don't know the reason I don't know my motivation I don't know...
Because... To a very large extent it is a matter of interpretation...
And it is not like you hit upon the fact of the matter by introspection...
It is that there are more or less helpful interpretations (ones that tend to help ones that tend to harm) though sometimes hitting upon a helpful interpretation can be hard...
> And this is something P.Docs go through all the time. It's not unusual for someone to resist treatment, and there are many reasons for it.
> It's part of the illness and sometimes it takes years.Yes.
I also think... That it is important for Deneb to know something about *why* other people do in fact feel frustrated in response to some of her posts. Because regardless of whether other people *have* to feel frustrated or whether they *choose* to feel frustrated; regardless of whether it is *rational* for them to feel frustrated or *irrational* for them to feel frustrated... The fact remains that sometimes people do feel frustrated in response to her posts.
And of course... That is not the end of the world. And people are surely frustrated with me at times and they can of course care about me a whole heap AT THE VERY SAME TIME as they feel frustrated with me (in fact people tend to feel frustrated because they do care)... But the point is that if Deneb wants helpful and / or sympathetic responses from people off the boards... Then people tend to not respond in that way when they feel frustrated.
That is a fact.
> I don't really believe help or offerings of advice should be given with expectations of obedience.
I agree with you there.
What can be hard...
Is when there is a course of action that is very likely to help...
But the person does not do that.
One can't make them...
But what else can one do to help?
It is like...
There is something just there that would probably help if only the person would do it...
Like how if someone is drowning and you can see the flotation device right next to them in the water...
And you say 'grab the flotation device'
And they don't...
They just keep talking about how they are drowning
And they won't grab the devicePeople are going to feel frustrated because they feel powerless...
It seems to them *there is nothing I can do*
And yet there is something that the person can do to help themself and yet they will not.In those cases...
Well...
DBT therapists have peer support for a reason...
But sometimes for ones own mental health
(And this can also be something that therapists find when they don't have adequate peer support)
They need to walk away.
Because...
Of their own mental health.
Other people don't have an infinite amount of energy...
But if the person can be seen to be making an honest effort to grab the flotation device...
Well...
That is all it takes to reenergise the cheerleaders on the sidelines.And if Deneb wants people to support her...
She needs to learn that she needs to care for her supporters
Because support takes effort
And effort is a limited capacity resource
And nobody has infinite patience...
Or energy...
> but none of us has gone through life without making decisions that frustrate other people.Absolutely. And in those cases... Well... Thats when one really needs to weigh up the pros and cons. About how much one is sacrificing oneself or somehting that one believes in for the sake of another persons preferences... That is a hard decision..
DO you think that applies here to Deneb?
(I know it applies in your past... But do you think it applies here?)
> It's a hard hard thing to go through. And sometimes we have to learn from our own mistakes.
Yes.
And that can be the hardest thing in the world to watch in other people...> I've also seen other people who go on and off there medications with regularity, and post about the ensuing upset, and for some reason they don't draw the same criticism as Deneb does.
Frequency?
The intense nature of the distress?
The point that the meds seemed to lead to a DRAMATIC improvement?I wonder why...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:34:52
In reply to Re: To Gabbi and alexandra, posted by Larry Hoover on January 4, 2006, at 22:31:57
It is okay sweetie, I know you are upset...
There are hugs for you over at the site that shall not be named ;-)
Take care of yourself...
Do something nice...(((((Larry)))))
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 4, 2006, at 22:51:28
In reply to Re: Too afraid to get help » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 4, 2006, at 22:32:54
> Hey. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
>
> But also...
>
> I understand the feeling of frustration and I have sympathy.
>
> And you can understand both at the same time and there is no contradiction in that...No absolutely not. I didn't mention it because it had already been made clear.
>
> DO you think that applies here to Deneb?I can't know that.
And I know for myself, I really don't get frustrated when people don't do what others think might be good for them. I might in a personal relationship, where I was living with someone and it affected us that way.
It's unusual I think.
But I think once they know, what *may* be good for them, it's really up to them to steer the ship.
But I do understand why other people get frustrated.
>> Yes.
> And that can be the hardest thing in the world to watch in other people...
>
> > I've also seen other people who go on and off there medications with regularity, and post about the ensuing upset, and for some reason they don't draw the same criticism as Deneb does.
>
> Frequency?
> The intense nature of the distress?
> The point that the meds seemed to lead to a DRAMATIC improvement?
>
> I wonder why...No, I've seen it with others frequently, who are just as distressed.
It's rather to me like watching an alcoholic or a drug addict make several attempts.. and going back.
Regardless. It's the not taking the medication that is the issue here. Lot's of people don't do it. What the result is, or how it manifests itself is simply a roll of the dice. The intent, and the reason for not taking it is no more deserving of negative judgement because of the result.
If two children are playing with matches, and one gets away without injury, while the other burns the house down.. the second isn't more deserving of punishment, The act is the same.
And absolutely if you can't risk that it might not end up the way you wish, without becoming very upset, then don't get involved.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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