![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 297 to 321 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on October 21, 2004, at 20:35:29
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 15:42:29
> maybe this was why i needed vitamin A and D together...if vitamin D upregulates TSH, then maybe I needed vitamin A to downregulate it?
>
> TSH secretion stimulated by thyroliberin in patients with hypothyroidism receiving 1,25-hydroxyvitamin D3]>
> [Article in Polish]>
> Gasinska T, Kierat A, Kochanska-Dziurowicz A, Izbicka M.
>
> The effect of 1,25-hydroxy vitamin D3 on the secretion of TSH was studied in 49 patients with primary hypothyroidism. The vitamin D3 metabolite did not cause any significant changes in the secretion of TSH both basal and stimulated with TRH in patients with untreated hypothyroidism. In those treated with the synthetic L-thyroxine it produced a significant increase in basal TSH secretion.
>well there goes that logic. Should have read all your posts first :)
I've always found too that I need the oil based A&D together.(if at all..usually only in winter)
I'd just assumed it worked well as the form of VitA and VitD maybe closer to my bodies requirements. Never really thought about needing both..just they come together in nature in this form..and also generally if they come together in nature, then that's usually how we are designed to need them.... natural selection and all that stuff)..even if we haven't worked out the why as yet.
BTW I thought the choice we have commercially was usually cod liver oil or halibut liver oil... both fish liver oils..cod or halibut. I have for the past 10 years used halibut liver oil I thought? Do you find one better than the other?Grin, remember before I confused the two re carotene?..its like I said, I've always thought about them together..except on the parathyroid /calc/VitD/phosphate path.
At a stretch I guess extra VitD could caus extra calcium (given sufficient amounts of other things..oestogen being one of probably lots)
and calc could lower available thyroid hormones in those on T4 replacement..which may feedback to pit/hypo and raise TSH..if that pathway is working optimally!
Is this logic correct? BTW I always welcome/enjoy constructive critism.
Jan
Posted by karaS on October 21, 2004, at 23:56:52
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 5:50:10
> >
> > I was taking 1200 mg. of NAC for a while but didn't notice any relief. Wouldn't that have provided enough glutathione had that been my problem or is that more the kind of thing where it would take a long time to see any kind of difference? Also, I read another post here a little while back about the perils of taking NAC when you have mercury amalgams (which I have) so I'm a bit worried now about taking it again.
>
>
> Hi Kara,
>
> Yes there is always the concern that mercury can be transported into the brain as well as out - in the excellent book "children with starving brains" they have a few protocols listed for heavy metal detoxification - they first use something called 'captomer' which is claimed not to cross the blood brain barrier.
>
> I would be very surprised if glutathione wasn't a problem - there are many ways of raising it, each individual to the person. All the co-factors might be necessary combined with NAC - Thiodox is an excellent supplement. Glutamine is useful in raising glutathione as it can also buffer cellular acidity, as well as supply gluatamate for glutathione. My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
>
> Here's a few abstracts....
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8412764&dopt=Abstract
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15090905
>
> this is interesting about buffering and celluar calcium, sorry it's complex though!
>
> 'These results suggest that local ADP buffering by PCr is essential for normal Ca(2+) regulation by the SR.' (SR = sarcoplasmic reticulum)
>
> So when energy is low, and ADP is higher than ATP, the cell becomes more acid - creatine (in my case 'think methylation' ) buffers the acidity and allows a cell to function more efficiently.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11897848
>
Ray,
Since I've been working the past couple of days and will be again tomorrow, I haven't had much time to answer these or read the citations. I was going to wait until this weekend to respond but I have the feeling that with all of this activity here, the train will have taken off if I wait until then...In answer to your post, what is "captomer" - something to be taken in place of NAC, with it or just separately to prevent mercury from entering the brain? Also, what is Thiodox? Do you believe that I should take the NAC and if so, what dosage? Do you think that there is any concern about taking l-glutamine? (in respect to it's producing too much glutamate which can serve as an excitotoxin). What is a reasonable dosage then for l-glutamine? (Had you read any of the posts below on this topic?) I hadn't realized that it played an important role in the immune system as your abstract indicated but by taking it are you helping your immune system while doing damage to your brain? Also, if creatine allows for methylation, then what is a good dosage to take of that? Do you recommend that for everyone or only for those with a methylation problem. If one has a methylation problem, then how does one determine that?
Actually, I have a book at home here by Dr. David Perlmutter. It’s called "The Better Brain Book." He has a dosing schedule of various supplements to take for various levels of need. It’s written for the masses so it’s easy for people like me to read but he has also published some more in depth articles on the topic. He’s a neurologist with a holistic bent – not a very common combination. Anyway, I guess I should follow his dosing schedules when I can afford to. He doesn’t have creatine or l-glutamine on there at all however, so I’d still be especially interested in how much of that you recommend taking.
Thanks,
KaraP.S. Simus isn’t the only one who can ask a lot of questions!
Posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:12:13
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 14:11:14
> 'PEA also induced a decrease in the density of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors in the rat striatum'
>
> How do you do on chocolate or salami?!!
Ray,You're saying that my favorite "food" of all time could be the very thing that saves me????
It reminds me of that Woody Allen movie where he wakes up a long time into the future and he is told that sugar (ice cream sundaes, cakes etc.) are the true health foods.
Anyway, I LOVE CHOCOLATE! I guess I could say that I do well on it. I crave it unbelievably. I've guessed that I was low in PEA because of that and also because I read that it is implicated in "rejection sensitivity." I am extremely sensitive to rejection. Because of this I thought that I would do well on the combination of selegilne and DLPA or l-phenylaline. However, the selegiline made me sleepy and then about 8 hours later made me stimulated (definitely some malfuncion there). I can't remember if I tried combining it with DLPA or l-phenylalanine yet. I do remember that I took some chocolate with it and I got really shakey from too much PEA. At any rate, because of the strange reaction to the selegiline, I gave up on it. Now I'm thinking that if the PEA might decrease the amount of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors, then it might be worth trying again. I wonder if it's only the D1 receptors that are involved. Those are the Parkinson's related receptors, no?
K
Posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:20:54
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 15:18:06
> Sorry, getting a bit carried away!!!
>
> this is interesting, implicating a virus in inhibiting the dopamine transporter (DAT), and so causing damage to dopaminagenic neurons
Ray,
You didn't attach an abstract above but that line of thinking is what brought me to the super sensitive DA receptors researching to begin with. I read a short article by Dr. Jay Goldstein. He theorized that those who reacted paradoxically to stimulants, did so because of hypersensitive DA autoreceptors. He specialized in treatment for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and his theory included the position that the DA autoreceptors problem could be caused by CFS. Since I have CFS that was caused by a virus (definite viral onset), this all made sense to me.K
Posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:42:18
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 20, 2004, at 23:15:28
> > 'PEA also induced a decrease in the density of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors in the rat striatum'
> >
> > How do you do on chocolate or salami?!!
>
> Sorry to butt in here... I have been following this thread (or trying to anyway) because Kara and I have so many symptoms in common. I have been semi-lost in the later posts, but now you completely lost me. I just have to ask about the chocolate and salami comment... What do they contain (PEA?), and how would you expect Kara (or me) to react after eating them? Thanks in advance.
>
> Simus
Simus,Are you hijacking my threads again? It feels like the good old days! I have an article I want to send you on selegiline and PEA but it's from a site that Dr. Bob bans because they sell some medications without a prescription. Very frustrating. Maybe I'll e-mail it to you.
K
Posted by Simus on October 22, 2004, at 2:04:57
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:42:18
> > > 'PEA also induced a decrease in the density of D1-like dopamine (DA) receptors in the rat striatum'
> > >
> > > How do you do on chocolate or salami?!!
> >
> > Sorry to butt in here... I have been following this thread (or trying to anyway) because Kara and I have so many symptoms in common. I have been semi-lost in the later posts, but now you completely lost me. I just have to ask about the chocolate and salami comment... What do they contain (PEA?), and how would you expect Kara (or me) to react after eating them? Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Simus
>
>
> Simus,
>
> Are you hijacking my threads again?hehehe...
> It feels like the good old days! I have an article I want to send you on selegiline and PEA but it's from a site that Dr. Bob bans because they sell some medications without a prescription. Very frustrating. Maybe I'll e-mail it to you.
Hey, any article that sings the praises of chocolate must be true!!! I would accept even speculation without benefit of clinical testing regarding the benefits of chocolate. {grins} Send it on!
Simus
P.S. How are you doing on meds? Any relief yet?
Posted by tealady on October 22, 2004, at 4:15:58
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:42:18
>> I have an article I want to send you on selegiline and PEA but it's from a site that Dr. Bob bans because they sell some medications without a prescription. Very frustrating. Maybe I'll e-mail it to you.
>
> KI don't "get" that really. Why can't you put up a link to the article? you aren't linking to meds?
gee I don't even get Dr Bob's restriction. How are people supposed to know what is prescription only or OTC in the States anyway? I have a vague idea from talking to a few hundred US residents, but every country has different meds that are otc or script..and one country I lived in for a while this year doesn't even have scripts as far as I know. OK, sorry for the outburst..
Posted by tealady on October 22, 2004, at 7:34:19
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 20, 2004, at 5:50:10
>My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
Hi Ray,
I looked up homocysteine PF by Jarrow yesterday(and had a glance at a few other supps you take too)
http://www.iherb.com/tmgb12b6tab.htmlVitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI) 15 mg 750%
Methyl B12 (Methylcobalamin)250 mcg 4167%
Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
Trimethylglycine (TMG) 500 mg (Anhydrous Betaine)so it looks to me like it just has normal Folic acid in it..not the special form you mentioned(FOLINIC ACID (5-formyl tetrahydrofolate))
..but it does have Betaine in the TMG form. Lar takes that on I think..the TMG.
Do you think it's the TMG?TMG is another I have to order from O'seas.
Sigh, and I'm beginning to run out of the stuff I bought in England..should have bought a lot and posted it back..as well as imported some from the US into England.Twas enough getting some citrate forms of Mg, Ca, zinc, and a few others like a higher dose Ferrous fumurate etc..as well as progesterone and oestradiol<g>.
I was taking 500mcg Folic acid together with a multiB for a while..didn't notice any diff..in fact I feel a lot less panicy since dropping the CoQ10 and folic acid (labeled folate..folic acid 500mcg)and more able to cope with some tasks...not big tasks..little things like making a phone call.
On another forum I remember now it was found we need NADPH and oxygen to break down glutiathone...bet I'm short there...everything abouyt me keeps coming up with a shortage of NADPH and oxygen, sigh.
I'll find the link
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.49oh yes you migh be interested in this too
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.47 ..just to change the topic around
I'm a lot better off with more carbs..and I've found more since..just can't remember what or where now, sigh
Oh yes on not breaking down chloresterol..another thing I've got..something about the low carb diet preventing chloresterol catabolizing to CoQ10 I think from memory..won't change onto that one!
Just to be more complicated..I also have difficulty with all forms of B12..methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin injections..my hands turn either bright red or a purply shade and tingly..same with my feet.
My Mum's hands go a bit red..not as severe as mine. Happens all the time..not as severe if I keep up with the injections but still happens..that's why when I got my B12 levels up I stopped! I even had multiB's made up w/o the B12 for a while just to see if I felt better.
I sem to be fine witha little cyanocobalamin that is in the multiB's over in Oz at present..well I don't notice much diff anyway.
This may possiby be a G6PD partial deficiency or perhaps that combined with methaemoglobulin problesm that I seeme to have after a dental anesthetic last year.
It's on the forum here last Sept.somewhere. If you have anything like that I could look up the posts..doubt it though. on the other had, if you know what it is, I'd love to know for sure!Found out I don't vasoconstrict...last hole I just skipped the anesthetic..drill felt exactly the same.
Today I found out I'm lowish on ADH (Vasopressin)..hence the too little vasoconstriction, sigh
yeah I learnt if one has a needle always get the adrenalaine..then take cortisol after I guess to lower it maybe...
Gee it makes it err challenging.
That's why I'm trying to go to uni to learn enough to figure it out..takes a long time though..especially when I can't just order the tests I need, sigh. Just wish I had a higher fraction of my old brain left to learn and think with.And all these things seem to cause a tad of anxiety, depression etc, LOL
Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:04:47
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 21, 2004, at 16:11:24
> Thanks for all the info, Ray! You are a blessing.
That's ok, it's fun!
>
> Do you mind if I ask if you are on meds, and if so, which ones? Also, would you mind sharing what your diagnosis was?No, I don't take any meds - really happy with how my supplements work out for me. Think my doctor dignosed me as a pain in the ass! I've tended to label myself as chronic fatigue, but it's been mainly the brain fog in the last few years. The immune system gene errors (great smokies test) are a big factor, I beleive.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:14:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 21, 2004, at 19:57:21
>
> (I'm 33.5 and 34.5 today underarm, unless I get up above 36 my right underarm is usually 1 degree colder than left uderarm..strange no?)I wonder whether your right thyroid is more of a problem than your left?
>
> But I've never thought about VitA.
> Hmm I've no idea know what function VitA plays in our body come to think of it..
>
Vitamin A apart from being a fat soluble antioxidant, and the first line of defence against infection, also works at DNA level to control genes. Like vitamin D it can speed up or slow down the rate at which neurotansmitters, enzymes and receptors are produced....only realised this today! Steroid hormones do the same - neurotransmitters control the production of steroid hormones, then homones control production of neurotransmitter genes - it's quite neat!Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:29:39
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 21, 2004, at 20:35:29
> > BTW I thought the choice we have commercially was usually cod liver oil or halibut liver oil... both fish liver oils..cod or halibut. I have for the past 10 years used halibut liver oil I thought? Do you find one better than the other?
I'm finding there's not enough vitamin D in fish oil for me. I use halibut oil (not sure if it's liver or not) for vitamin A, but don't know if it's any better than cod? It's the mercury and PCB content that really concerns me more than the fish.
>
>
> At a stretch I guess extra VitD could caus extra calcium (given sufficient amounts of other things..oestogen being one of probably lots)One thing I like about vitamin D is it's autoimmune reducing effect!
> and calc could lower available thyroid hormones in those on T4 replacement..which may feedback to pit/hypo and raise TSH..if that pathway is working optimally!Why would calcium lower thyroid hormones? I'm not sure of the way it would do that? Saw in interesting idea reagrding vitamin A an article said thyroid receptors can become over sensitive during hypothyroid, so when T3 or T4 is supplemented, a person can be a little 'hyper' - vitamin A can desensitise the T3 receptor to help with this - not sure it would be good in some cases though!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:52:37
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 21, 2004, at 23:56:52
> In answer to your post, what is "captomer" -
captomer is like NAC but it is claimed that it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, so can't carry mercury into the brain - not sur if that's true or not!
>Also, what is Thiodox?
It's a glutathione formula conataining NAC, selenium, B2 vit c, ala and glutathione
Do you believe that I should take the NAC and if so, what dosage?
I only do well on NAC for a few days, then feel nauseous - can take thiodox for longer, but still ends up causing nausea eventually - think I run low on other b vits etc, and need time to replace them before I can start another course..
Do you think that there is any concern about taking l-glutamine? (in respect to it's producing too much glutamate which can serve as an excitotoxin). What is a reasonable dosage then for l-glutamine?Yes there's always a worry about glutamine, but I can't tolerate glutamate but do really well on glutamine - my gut loves it
(Had you read any of the posts below on this topic?) I hadn't realized that it played an important role in the immune system as your abstract indicated but by taking it are you helping your immune system while doing damage to your brain?
Haven't follwed the posts on glutamine - think it's individual how it works with people, know a couple of other people who do well on it, even though they're sensitive to glutamate - not sure why, will have to look at the posts!
Also, if creatine allows for methylation, then what is a good dosage to take of that? Do you recommend that for everyone or only for those with a methylation problem. If one has a methylation problem, then how does one determine that?
Creatine can reduce autoimmune problems, so I would guess that methylation would be a problem in a lot of autoimmune disease sufferers - as for dose, I'm taking 4 tablets of 'homocysteine pf' by jarrow a day - how do you do on betaine, b12 or folate? Beetroot juice is a good source of betaine by the way.
>
> Actually, I have a book at home here by Dr. David Perlmutter. It’s called "The Better Brain Book." He has a dosing schedule of various supplements to take for various levels of need. It’s written for the masses so it’s easy for people like me to read but he has also published some more in depth articles on the topic. He’s a neurologist with a holistic bent – not a very common combination. Anyway, I guess I should follow his dosing schedules when I can afford to. He doesn’t have creatine or l-glutamine on there at all however, so I’d still be especially interested in how much of that you recommend taking.
>I've got a david perlmutter book called "brainrecovery.com" - think he's excellent. He doesn't have creatine but he does spend a lot of time talking about homocycsteine, which is high when creatine is low - and homocysteine is an excitotoxin too.
Yeah, you're right, he doesn't mention glutamine - but I can take a gram a day and feel really good, but I do hear your concerns...
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 18:02:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 22, 2004, at 7:34:19
> >My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
>
>
> Hi Ray,
> I looked up homocysteine PF by Jarrow yesterday(and had a glance at a few other supps you take too)
> http://www.iherb.com/tmgb12b6tab.html
>
> Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI) 15 mg 750%
> Methyl B12 (Methylcobalamin)250 mcg 4167%
> Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
> Trimethylglycine (TMG) 500 mg (Anhydrous Betaine)
>
> so it looks to me like it just has normal Folic acid in it..not the special form you mentioned(FOLINIC ACID (5-formyl tetrahydrofolate))
> ..but it does have Betaine in the TMG form. Lar takes that on I think..the TMG.
> Do you think it's the TMG?
>
> TMG is another I have to order from O'seas.
> Sigh, and I'm beginning to run out of the stuff I bought in England..should have bought a lot and posted it back..as well as imported some from the US into England.
>
> Twas enough getting some citrate forms of Mg, Ca, zinc, and a few others like a higher dose Ferrous fumurate etc..as well as progesterone and oestradiol<g>.
>
> I was taking 500mcg Folic acid together with a multiB for a while..didn't notice any diff..in fact I feel a lot less panicy since dropping the CoQ10 and folic acid (labeled folate..folic acid 500mcg)and more able to cope with some tasks...not big tasks..little things like making a phone call.
>
> On another forum I remember now it was found we need NADPH and oxygen to break down glutiathone...bet I'm short there...everything abouyt me keeps coming up with a shortage of NADPH and oxygen, sigh.
>
> I'll find the link
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.49
>
> oh yes you migh be interested in this too
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.47 ..just to change the topic around
> I'm a lot better off with more carbs..and I've found more since..just can't remember what or where now, sigh
> Oh yes on not breaking down chloresterol..another thing I've got..something about the low carb diet preventing chloresterol catabolizing to CoQ10 I think from memory..won't change onto that one!
>
>
> Just to be more complicated..I also have difficulty with all forms of B12..methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin injections..my hands turn either bright red or a purply shade and tingly..same with my feet.
> My Mum's hands go a bit red..not as severe as mine. Happens all the time..not as severe if I keep up with the injections but still happens..that's why when I got my B12 levels up I stopped! I even had multiB's made up w/o the B12 for a while just to see if I felt better.
> I sem to be fine witha little cyanocobalamin that is in the multiB's over in Oz at present..well I don't notice much diff anyway.
> This may possiby be a G6PD partial deficiency or perhaps that combined with methaemoglobulin problesm that I seeme to have after a dental anesthetic last year.
> It's on the forum here last Sept.somewhere. If you have anything like that I could look up the posts..doubt it though. on the other had, if you know what it is, I'd love to know for sure!
>
> Found out I don't vasoconstrict...last hole I just skipped the anesthetic..drill felt exactly the same.
> Today I found out I'm lowish on ADH (Vasopressin)..hence the too little vasoconstriction, sigh
> yeah I learnt if one has a needle always get the adrenalaine..then take cortisol after I guess to lower it maybe...
> Gee it makes it err challenging.
>
>
> That's why I'm trying to go to uni to learn enough to figure it out..takes a long time though..especially when I can't just order the tests I need, sigh. Just wish I had a higher fraction of my old brain left to learn and think with.
>
> And all these things seem to cause a tad of anxiety, depression etc, LOL
>
> Jan
Hi Jan, have got to get to bed, so can't answer all your questions today....but yes homocysteine pf only contains folate, but it works wonderfully for me, must be just a good balance for my system.
I was wrong about folinic acid it's tetrahydrofolate, and not fully activated to it's methyl state. But folate to tetrahydrofolate still needs 4 NADPH molecules, and to make the methyl tetrahydrofolate in needs methyl B12, B2 and another NADPH. when folate is used, it then needs B6, manganese in one step, then B2, NADPH and methyl b12 again - if any one of these is in short supply, it all fails! If your low NADPH, that might be why methyl B12 causes a problem, it might accelerate the decline of NADPH?Ray
>
Posted by Simus on October 22, 2004, at 23:43:11
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:04:47
HA! I didn't go to medical school so I am no expert, but I don't agree with your doctor's diagnosis.
Simus
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 0:08:33
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 8:15:03
> found this of interest....
>
> Effect of oestradiol on dopamine receptors and protein kinase C activity in the rat pituitary: binding of oestradiol to pituitary membranes.
>
> Joubert-Bression D, Brandi AM, Birman P, Peillon F.
>
> INSERM U 223, Faculte de Medecine Pitie-Salpetriere, Paris, France.
>
> Oestradiol exerts an important modulatory influence on the release of prolactin which is accomplished partly through disruption of the inhibitory influence of dopamine. We have focused on the status of the anterior pituitary D2 dopamine receptor in female rats treated chronically with oestradiol or progesterone. A direct membrane effect of these steroids on the dopamine system was also investigated in vitro. Both steroids affected the status of the D2 receptor, oestradiol decreasing the number of sites in vitro and progesterone increasing it both in vitro and in vivo. The in vitro studies demonstrated that these steroids exert a direct membrane effect on the D2 receptor. These results correlated with an in vitro short-term physiological effect of oestradiol and progesterone on the dopaminergic inhibition of prolactin release, oestradiol decreasing it while progesterone had the opposite effect. Binding studies with [3H] oestradiol on pituitary membranes revealed a site for oestradiol of high affinity and low capacity, indicating that oestradiol's membrane effects could be mediated by a specific receptor. In vivo treatment with oestradiol also induces proliferation of prolactin-secreting cells (lactotrophs). We focused on the effect of oestradiol on protein kinase C activity, which is involved in both secretion and proliferation. In female rats treated with oestradiol total protein kinase C activity was increased by 74% (particulate 90%, soluble 71%) in comparison with controls. This effect was reversed by concomitant treatment with a dopamine agonist. Thus in the pituitary oestradiol and progesterone affect the characteristics of membrane components that are implicated in the physiological control of the cell. Whether these effects are post-transcriptional only or are also mediated through direct membrane mechanisms needs further investigation.
>Yet another reason to lament the loss of estrogen...
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 0:23:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by tealady on October 22, 2004, at 4:15:58
> >> I have an article I want to send you on selegiline and PEA but it's from a site that Dr. Bob bans because they sell some medications without a prescription. Very frustrating. Maybe I'll e-mail it to you.
> >
> > K
>
> I don't "get" that really. Why can't you put up a link to the article? you aren't linking to meds?
> gee I don't even get Dr Bob's restriction. How are people supposed to know what is prescription only or OTC in the States anyway? I have a vague idea from talking to a few hundred US residents, but every country has different meds that are otc or script..and one country I lived in for a while this year doesn't even have scripts as far as I know. OK, sorry for the outburst..I don't really get it myself. I do know that I've gotten a warning for an offhanded remark that mentioned the sister site of the one in question here (that sister site is in the U.S. and it doesn't sell anything that could be considered illegal on this board). I have seen others get that warning and they've been quite confused about it.
My guess is that Dr. Bob's thinking is that providing a link to the article will bring people to that site where they can wander around and discover medications that don't require prescriptions. It's not like it's some back alley rip off kind of a site though. It's mostly supplements with a couple of things that could actually be considered medications. It's a very health conscious site. I don't really agree with him on this one - but then I'm not the one who needs to ensure funding for this site.
I don't know how we're all supposed to know the sites that are safe to mention on this board. I guess that's why we get a warning first.
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 0:39:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:04:47
> > Thanks for all the info, Ray! You are a blessing.
>
> That's ok, it's fun!
> >
> > Do you mind if I ask if you are on meds, and if so, which ones? Also, would you mind sharing what your diagnosis was?
>
> No, I don't take any meds - really happy with how my supplements work out for me. Think my doctor dignosed me as a pain in the ass! I've tended to label myself as chronic fatigue, but it's been mainly the brain fog in the last few years. The immune system gene errors (great smokies test) are a big factor, I beleive.
>
> Ray
Ray, was depression ever a problem for you? Or, has it always been only the brain fog that you have been concerned about?I want so badly to have a full set of tests done by Great Smokies lab. I think it could save years of experimenting and get me started in the right direction. I just can't afford it now.
(It won't be able to show me everything - I doubt that there's any test that would be able to confirm whether I have hypersentive DA receptors, but it would still be a great help.)P.S. I think most of us on this board could probably say that our doctors consider us pains in the butt!
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:07:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:52:37
> > In answer to your post, what is "captomer" -
>
> captomer is like NAC but it is claimed that it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, so can't carry mercury into the brain - not sur if that's true or not!So what's the point of taking captomer to prevent neurotoxicity if it can't get past the BBB?
>
> >Also, what is Thiodox?
>
> It's a glutathione formula conataining NAC, selenium, B2 vit c, ala and glutathione
>
> Do you believe that I should take the NAC and if so, what dosage?
>
> I only do well on NAC for a few days, then feel nauseous - can take thiodox for longer, but still ends up causing nausea eventually - think I run low on other b vits etc, and need time to replace them before I can start another course..
>
>
> Do you think that there is any concern about taking l-glutamine? (in respect to it's producing too much glutamate which can serve as an excitotoxin). What is a reasonable dosage then for l-glutamine?
>
> Yes there's always a worry about glutamine, but I can't tolerate glutamate but do really well on glutamine - my gut loves it
>
> (Had you read any of the posts below on this topic?) I hadn't realized that it played an important role in the immune system as your abstract indicated but by taking it are you helping your immune system while doing damage to your brain?
>
> Haven't follwed the posts on glutamine - think it's individual how it works with people, know a couple of other people who do well on it, even though they're sensitive to glutamate - not sure why, will have to look at the posts!ok, let me know what you think about them if you read them.
> Also, if creatine allows for methylation, then what is a good dosage to take of that? Do you recommend that for everyone or only for those with a methylation problem. If one has a methylation problem, then how does one determine that?
>
> Creatine can reduce autoimmune problems, so I would guess that methylation would be a problem in a lot of autoimmune disease sufferers - as for dose, I'm taking 4 tablets of 'homocysteine pf' by jarrow a day - how do you do on betaine, b12 or folate? Beetroot juice is a good source of betaine by the way.I haven't taken betaine yet. I do fine on B12 and folate which I've taken for quite a while. When I say I'm doing fine I mean that I don't have any bad effects. I don't really notice a difference when I'm taking them either. I'd say that goes for most of the supplements I take. I thought I saw a big improvement when I started on the extra magnesium but sometimes I wonder if it wasn't just a good week for me.
> > Actually, I have a book at home here by Dr. David Perlmutter. It’s called "The Better Brain Book." He has a dosing schedule of various supplements to take for various levels of need. It’s written for the masses so it’s easy for people like me to read but he has also published some more in depth articles on the topic. He’s a neurologist with a holistic bent – not a very common combination. Anyway, I guess I should follow his dosing schedules when I can afford to. He doesn’t have creatine or l-glutamine on there at all however, so I’d still be especially interested in how much of that you recommend taking.
> >
>
> I've got a david perlmutter book called "brainrecovery.com" - think he's excellent. He doesn't have creatine but he does spend a lot of time talking about homocycsteine, which is high when creatine is low - and homocysteine is an excitotoxin too.Yes, I've heard of that book too. My book is probably the same just with a new title and repackaged. I find that is often the case these days. The authors get to rewrite the same book and cash in all over again.
I'd send you the link for that article by Dr. Perlmutter but I value your friendship and support too much.
> Yeah, you're right, he doesn't mention glutamine - but I can take a gram a day and feel really good, but I do hear your concerns...It's so hard to sort it all out. You really have to know exactly what the status is of so many different things in your body at the moment before you can accurately decide what's best for you to take. Wish there were some easy way to know that.
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:29:59
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 0:08:33
I really HAVE to try to cut down on my time here for a while. Though I'd prefer to spend more time on this board rather than less, I just have to put more effort into my job search and my apartment. I've made a couple of half-hearted attempts before that weren't successful so I thought I'd ask for your help in not posting anything new to me (not including an answer to a previous post) for a couple of weeks. Thanks.
Posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:41:24
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on October 21, 2004, at 9:12:28
> sorry to post so much stuff....hope it's still of interest!
Ray,
Please don't apologize. It's definitely of interst. That's the problem - too much interest in things like this and not enough interest in the things I need to do.But getting back to the topic, this actually goes hand-in-hand with some of my questions about the safety of taking glutamine. If vitamin D can protect against the toxicity of glutamate, then I will feel less worried taking glutamine. Does vitamin D contain vitamin D3 or would one need to purchase Vitamin D3 specifically?
Thanks!
Kara
> Vitamin D(3) attenuates 6-hydroxydopamine-induced neurotoxicity in rats.
>
> Wang JY, Wu JN, Cherng TL, Hoffer BJ, Chen HH, Borlongan CV, Wang Y.
>
> Department of Physiology, National Defense Medical Center, Taipei, Taiwan.
>
> Previous reports have demonstrated that exogeneous administration of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) reduces ventral mesencephalic (VM) dopaminergic (DA) neuron damage induced by 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) lesioning in rats. Recent studies have shown that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (D3) enhances endogenous GDNF expression in vitro and in vivo. The purpose of present study was to investigate if administration of D3 in vivo and in vitro would protect against 6-OHDA-induced DA neuron injury. Adult male Sprague-Dawley rats were injected daily with D3 or with saline for 8 days and then lesioned unilaterally with 6-OHDA into the medial forebrain bundle. Locomotor activity was measured using automated activity chambers. We found that unilateral 6-OHDA lesioning reduced locomotor activity in saline-pretreated animals. Pretreatment with D3 for 8 days significantly restored locomotor activity in the lesioned animals. All animals were sacrificed for neurochemical analysis 6 weeks after lesioning. We found that 6-OHDA administration significantly reduced dopamine (DA), 3,4-dihydroxy-phenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and homovanilic acid (HVA) levels in the substantia nigra (SN) on the lesioned side in the saline-treated rats. D3 pretreatment protected against 6-OHDA-mediated depletion of DA and its metabolites in SN. Using primary cultures obtained from the VM of rat embryos, we found that 6-OHDA or H(2)O(2) alone caused significant cell death. Pretreatment with D3 (10(-10) M) protected VM neurons against 6-OHDA- or H(2)O(2)-induced cell death in vitro. Taken together, our data indicate that D3 pretreatment attenuates the hypokinesia and DA neuronal toxicity induced by 6-OHDA. Since both H(2)O(2) and 6-OHDA may injure cells via free radical and reactive oxygen species, the neuroprotection seen here may operate via a reversal of such a toxic mechanism.
>
>
> Protective effects of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) against the neurotoxicity of glutamate and reactive oxygen species in mesencephalic culture.
>
> Ibi M, Sawada H, Nakanishi M, Kume T, Katsuki H, Kaneko S, Shimohama S, Akaike A.
>
> Department of Pharmacology, Graduate School of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Kyoto University, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501, Japan.
>
> This study was undertaken to determine whether 1 alpha,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 [1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3)], an active metabolite of vitamin D, protects dopaminergic neurons against the neurotoxic effects of glutamate and dopaminergic toxins using rat mesecephalic culture. Brief glutamate exposure elicited cytotoxicity in both dopaminergic and non-dopaminergic neurons. Pretreatment, but not co-administration, of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) protected both types of neurons against the cytotoxicity of glutamate in a concentration- and time-dependent manner. The neuroprotective effect of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) was inhibited by the protein synthesis inhibitor, cycloheximide. To investigate the mechanisms of these neuroprotective effects, we examined the effects of 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) on neurotoxicity induced by calcium ionophore and reactive oxygen species (ROS). Pretreatment with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) protected both types of neurons against the cytotoxicity induced by A23187 in a concentration-dependent manner. Furthermore, 24-h pretreatment with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) concentration-dependently protected both types of neurons from ROS-induced cytotoxicity. A 24-h incubation with 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) inhibited the increase in intracellular ROS level following H(2)O(2) exposure. A 24-h exposure to 1-methyl-4-phenylpyridium ion (MPP(+)) or 6-hydroxydopamine (6-OHDA) exerted selective neurotoxicity on dopaminergic neurons, and these neurotoxic effects were ameliorated by 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3). These results suggest that 1 alpha,25-(OH)(2)D(3) provides protection of dopaminergic neurons against cytotoxicity induced by glutamate and dopaminergic toxins by facilitating cellular functions that reduce oxidative stress.
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2004, at 2:44:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by tealady on October 22, 2004, at 4:15:58
> How are people supposed to know what is prescription only or OTC in the States anyway?
Good question, here's one list:
Bob
Posted by tealady on October 23, 2004, at 16:30:41
In reply to Re: what is prescription only or OTC, posted by Dr. Bob on October 23, 2004, at 2:44:32
> > How are people supposed to know what is prescription only or OTC in the States anyway?
>
> Good question, here's one list:
>
> http://www.fda.gov/cder/ob
>
> Bobgood link Bob. You're lucky it's the same in each state <g>.
It's not in Oz, different in the two states I have lived in.
Posted by tealady on October 23, 2004, at 19:57:48
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 18:02:06
> > >My own practitioner gave me something by jarrow called 'homocysteine pf' yesterday which helped me massively. I talked to her about my concerns about my poor methylation and how it's required for creatine prouction and acidity buffering - so we checked it out and found I was really high in folate (like Jan) but couldn't use it - homocysteine PF got my folate working (checked with kinesiology). As glutamine and methylation improve my fog too, I think part of the 'fogginess' may be because I'm too acid.
> >
> >
> > Hi Ray,
> > I looked up homocysteine PF by Jarrow yesterday(and had a glance at a few other supps you take too)
> > http://www.iherb.com/tmgb12b6tab.html
> >
> > Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine HCI) 15 mg 750%
> > Methyl B12 (Methylcobalamin)250 mcg 4167%
> > Folic Acid 400 mcg 100%
> > Trimethylglycine (TMG) 500 mg (Anhydrous Betaine)
> >
> > so it looks to me like it just has normal Folic acid in it..not the special form you mentioned(FOLINIC ACID (5-formyl tetrahydrofolate))
> > ..but it does have Betaine in the TMG form. Lar takes that on I think..the TMG.
> > Do you think it's the TMG?
> >
> > TMG is another I have to order from O'seas.> >
> > I was taking 500mcg Folic acid together with a multiB for a while..didn't notice any diff..in fact I feel a lot less panicy since dropping the CoQ10 and folic acid (labeled folate..folic acid 500mcg)and more able to cope with some tasks...not big tasks..little things like making a phone call.
> >
> > On another forum I remember now it was found we need NADPH and oxygen to break down glutiathone...bet I'm short there...everything abouyt me keeps coming up with a shortage of NADPH and oxygen, sigh.
> >
> > I'll find the link
> > http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.49
> >
> > oh yes you migh be interested in this too
> > http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=52183.47 ..just to change the topic around
> > I'm a lot better off with more carbs..and I've found more since..just can't remember what or where now, sigh
> > Oh yes on not breaking down chloresterol..another thing I've got..something about the low carb diet preventing chloresterol catabolizing to CoQ10 I think from memory..won't change onto that one!
> >
> >
> > Just to be more complicated..I also have difficulty with all forms of B12..methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin injections..my hands turn either bright red or a purply shade and tingly..same with my feet.
> > My Mum's hands go a bit red..not as severe as mine. Happens all the time..not as severe if I keep up with the injections but still happens..that's why when I got my B12 levels up I stopped! I even had multiB's made up w/o the B12 for a while just to see if I felt better.
> > I seem to be fine witha little cyanocobalamin that is in the multiB's over in Oz at present..well I don't notice much diff anyway.
> > This may possiby be a G6PD partial deficiency or perhaps that combined with methaemoglobulin problesm that I seeme to have after a dental anesthetic last year.
> > It's on the forum here last Sept.somewhere. If you have anything like that I could look up the posts..doubt it though. on the other had, if you know what it is, I'd love to know for sure!
> >
> > Found out I don't vasoconstrict...last hole I just skipped the anesthetic..drill felt exactly the same.
> > Today I found out I'm lowish on ADH (Vasopressin)..hence the too little vasoconstriction, sigh
> > yeah I learnt if one has a needle always get the adrenalaine..then take cortisol after I guess to lower it maybe...
> > Gee it makes it err challenging.
> >
> >
> > That's why I'm trying to go to uni to learn enough to figure it out..takes a long time though..especially when I can't just order the tests I need, sigh. Just wish I had a higher fraction of my old brain left to learn and think with.
> >
> > And all these things seem to cause a tad of anxiety, depression etc, LOL
> >
> > Jan
>
>
> Hi Jan, have got to get to bed, so can't answer all your questions today....but yes homocysteine pf only contains folate, but it works wonderfully for me, must be just a good balance for my system.
> I was wrong about folinic acid it's tetrahydrofolate, and not fully activated to it's methyl state. But folate to tetrahydrofolate still needs 4 NADPH molecules, and to make the methyl tetrahydrofolate in needs methyl B12, B2 and another NADPH. when folate is used, it then needs B6, manganese in one step, then B2, NADPH and methyl b12 again - if any one of these is in short supply, it all fails! If your low NADPH, that might be why methyl B12 causes a problem, it might accelerate the decline of NADPH?
----------------------------
****And it begins to come together....tada!****"In plants, FOLIC ACID is formed from a hetero-bicyclic pteride ring, paraaminobenzoic acid (PABA), and GLUTAMIC ACID (see Figure 2).
FOLATE is initially deconjugated in the cells of the intestinal wall to the MONOGLUTAMATE form. This is then reduced to dihydrofolate and then to tetrahydrofolate (THF) via folate and dihydrofolate reductase."Both of these enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor.
Serine combines with pyridoxal-5'-phosphate(P5P B6) to transfer a hydroxymethyl group to THF. This results in the formation of 5, 10-methylenetetrahydrofolate (methylene THF) and glycine. (see Figure 3) This molecule is of central importance, being the precursor of the metabolically-active 5- ethyltetrahydrofolate (5-methylTHF, which is involved in homocysteine metabolism) and methy-lidynetetrahydrofolate (involved in purine synthesis), as well as functioning on its own in the generation of THYMINE side chains for incorporation into DNA.Enzyme or cofactor deficiency needed for generation of active folic acid.
Folinic acid (5-formylTHF- available supplementally as calcium folinate—also known as leucovorin calcium) is an immediate precursor to 5, 10 methyleneTHF and 5- methylTHF. Folinic acid is more stable than folic acid and has a longer half-life in the body.
Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared.15
so we have the betaine,
folic acid, glutamine(glutamic acid used in folate canversion)/glutamate ( monoglutamate form of folic acid),
NADPH( both enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor),
generation of thymine side chains
pyridoxal-5'-phosphate
methionine"Betaine supplementation has been shown to reduce homocysteine levels while resulting in modest increases of plasma serine and simultaneous increases of plasma cysteine levels.7 Serine levels are depressed in some individuals with excess homocysteine who are treated with folic acid, cobalamin, and vitamin B6"
"Because serine is required for:
1)the conversion of folic acid to its active form,
2) as a shuttle for methyl groups between the cytosol and the mitochondria, and
3) as a cofactor in the trans-sulfuration pathway of methionine/ homocysteine metabolism""Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared."
http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/1-4/homocysteinemetabolism.pdf
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 14:22:01
In reply to Folic/Folinic acid,P5P,glutamine,betaine,methionin » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 23, 2004, at 19:57:48
>
> ****And it begins to come together....tada!****
>
> "In plants, FOLIC ACID is formed from a hetero-bicyclic pteride ring, paraaminobenzoic acid (PABA), and GLUTAMIC ACID (see Figure 2).
> FOLATE is initially deconjugated in the cells of the intestinal wall to the MONOGLUTAMATE form. This is then reduced to dihydrofolate and then to tetrahydrofolate (THF) via folate and dihydrofolate reductase."
>
> Both of these enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor.
> Serine combines with pyridoxal-5'-phosphate(P5P B6) to transfer a hydroxymethyl group to THF. This results in the formation of 5, 10-methylenetetrahydrofolate (methylene THF) and glycine. (see Figure 3) This molecule is of central importance, being the precursor of the metabolically-active 5- ethyltetrahydrofolate (5-methylTHF, which is involved in homocysteine metabolism) and methy-lidynetetrahydrofolate (involved in purine synthesis), as well as functioning on its own in the generation of THYMINE side chains for incorporation into DNA.
>
> Enzyme or cofactor deficiency needed for generation of active folic acid.
> Folinic acid (5-formylTHF- available supplementally as calcium folinate—also known as leucovorin calcium) is an immediate precursor to 5, 10 methyleneTHF and 5- methylTHF. Folinic acid is more stable than folic acid and has a longer half-life in the body.
> Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared.15
>
>
> so we have the betaine,
> folic acid, glutamine(glutamic acid used in folate canversion)/glutamate ( monoglutamate form of folic acid),
> NADPH( both enzymes require NADPH (niacin dependent) as a cofactor),
> generation of thymine side chains
> pyridoxal-5'-phosphate
> methionine
>
> "Betaine supplementation has been shown to reduce homocysteine levels while resulting in modest increases of plasma serine and simultaneous increases of plasma cysteine levels.7 Serine levels are depressed in some individuals with excess homocysteine who are treated with folic acid, cobalamin, and vitamin B6"
>
> "Because serine is required for:
> 1)the conversion of folic acid to its active form,
> 2) as a shuttle for methyl groups between the cytosol and the mitochondria, and
> 3) as a cofactor in the trans-sulfuration pathway of methionine/ homocysteine metabolism"
>
> "Folinic acid also readily crosses the bloodbrain barrier and is slowly cleared, compared to folic acid, which is poorly transported into the brain, and once in the CNS is rapidly cleared."
>
> http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/1-4/homocysteinemetabolism.pdf
>
>
>
>Well done Jan, that's a brilliant article! Interesting the bit about SAM being needed for CoQ10 manufacture too - I wonder whether a CoQ10 supplement needs to be remethylated after a while, and if it can raise homocyteine?
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 14:49:45
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:07:06
> >
> So what's the point of taking captomer to prevent neurotoxicity if it can't get past the BBB?The autism people believe that it's important to remove mercury from the body before the brain, as they are concerned about transporting mercury into the brain, rather than out....not sure if any research is available though?
Ray
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