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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 322 to 346 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:06:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:41:24
>
> Ray,
> Please don't apologize. It's definitely of interst. That's the problem - too much interest in things like this and not enough interest in the things I need to do.Ok, hope you manage to get stuff sorted!!
>
> But getting back to the topic, this actually goes hand-in-hand with some of my questions about the safety of taking glutamine. If vitamin D can protect against the toxicity of glutamate, then I will feel less worried taking glutamine. Does vitamin D contain vitamin D3 or would one need to purchase Vitamin D3 specifically?
Usually, the supplement says what kind of vitamin D it is - the biotics one I take is D3. The glutamine issue is so difficult. I've got a book called ""the brain wellness plan" and the only condition it says glutamine is a definite no for is ALS. His belief is that a lot of brian disorders start in the gut, and glutamine is essential for gut integrity - Like autism, I think my gut is the primary problem, and any brain stuff, is secondary. My moods do change with food, and I only really get depressed with pasta and alcohol - and I feel effects in the gut before the brain, but sometimes I forget this, and my brain fog did start around 10-12 years ago after a couple of years of IBS..This is what the book says....
"many brain-immune disorders are directly or indirectly related to dysfunctions in the GI tract - largely because your gut's failure to do it's job of utilizing nutrients and cleansing the body of harmful substances can result in inappropriate immune system activation."
Good luck with sorting things out, and no peeping at any posts!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:08:44
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 22, 2004, at 23:43:11
> HA! I didn't go to medical school so I am no expert, but I don't agree with your doctor's diagnosis.
He was a chain smoker, so should have realised subtle health issues might have been beyond him!
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:26:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 23, 2004, at 1:41:24
read the glutamine thread and dr mercola's article on it - mercola makes some good points, so going to be cautious with glutamine, and only use it if I feel my gut needs it!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:51:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:08:44
although mainly suggested for grave's disease lemon balm sounds interesting - say's it can lower TSH, anyone heard of it?
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:24:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:06:15
> >
> > Ray,
> > Please don't apologize. It's definitely of interst. That's the problem - too much interest in things like this and not enough interest in the things I need to do.
>
> Ok, hope you manage to get stuff sorted!!
>
>
> >
> > But getting back to the topic, this actually goes hand-in-hand with some of my questions about the safety of taking glutamine. If vitamin D can protect against the toxicity of glutamate, then I will feel less worried taking glutamine. Does vitamin D contain vitamin D3 or would one need to purchase Vitamin D3 specifically?
>
>
> Usually, the supplement says what kind of vitamin D it is - the biotics one I take is D3. The glutamine issue is so difficult. I've got a book called ""the brain wellness plan" and the only condition it says glutamine is a definite no for is ALS. His belief is that a lot of brian disorders start in the gut, and glutamine is essential for gut integrity - Like autism, I think my gut is the primary problem, and any brain stuff, is secondary. My moods do change with food, and I only really get depressed with pasta and alcohol - and I feel effects in the gut before the brain, but sometimes I forget this, and my brain fog did start around 10-12 years ago after a couple of years of IBS..
>
> This is what the book says....
>
> "many brain-immune disorders are directly or indirectly related to dysfunctions in the GI tract - largely because your gut's failure to do it's job of utilizing nutrients and cleansing the body of harmful substances can result in inappropriate immune system activation."
>
> Good luck with sorting things out, and no peeping at any posts!
>
> Ray
>Ray,
I've been trying to limit myself to answering and finishing up previous posts to me on all boards and to starting new posts on the main board having to do with the decision I must make soon about staying on or discontinuing Cymbalta. (I'm leaning towards discontinuing but that's another story.) It's so hard to do all of my chores and job hunting when what I really want to do is spend all of my time here trying to figure everything out so I can "cure" myself (not to mention the great company and support here).I think that I have read "The Brain Wellness Plan". I should look at it again now though since I know much more than when I read it before.
I am so amazed at how you've been able to determine cause and effect in your life and in how you've been able to so clearly identify your reactions to various supplements.
In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise. I had considered that adrenal fatigue was the culprit but I don't feel bad during exercise or immediately afterwards. It's only later on that I feel the need to sleep. I'm certain now that the exercise boosts dopamine and those darn autoreceptors overreact. Now I'm wondering if the receptor problem was caused by years of viral CFS, inflammation issues, and/or years of SSRI usage. If it's the latter then maybe I should not continue on the Cymbalta (even though it also targets NE).
OK, not doing so well on the staying away from posting ... but this is still responding to old posts, right?
Take care,
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:32:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 24, 2004, at 15:26:51
> read the glutamine thread and dr mercola's article on it - mercola makes some good points, so going to be cautious with glutamine, and only use it if I feel my gut needs it!
>
> RayThanks for the feedback. I wish I could trust my gut as much you can with yours!
P.S. Re: my previous post, have you ever read "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD? If so, what did you think of it?
Posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:24:15
>In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise
Hi Kara, I know no posting...same here ..supposed to start studying.
Just I wonder if we have something the same going on here.Firstly are you on any form of thyroid hormones at all..like T4, T3 or Armour and if so what?
Here's why. I get lost with this, but my first reaction whan I started on Armour (which contains T3) but not on T4 meds was maybe something like a cholinergic drug drug for my bladder.I'm really lost here..the bladder nurse just told me a month oor so ago that my reaction were the same as happens occasionally for those taking cholinergic drugs.
I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grrSo with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
Really I'm so lost here??Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
Also I'm lost with this "hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors" too <g>.. If I say take some tyrosine I get a strong dopamine-like reaction maybe, like I can kinda "trip" on say 2g of tyrosine ..if that's what you mean ? I also get very tired after exercise, need to sleep for a day or two to feel good again..or doing anything actually <g>
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:41:57
In reply to Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » karaS, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
Strange how they are linka linked like...the immune and hormones and neurotransmitters..
Is cholinergic urticaria like heat rash or something different?
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 23:12:55
In reply to Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » karaS, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
> >In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise
>
> Hi Kara, I know no posting...same here ..supposed to start studying.
> Just I wonder if we have something the same going on here.
>
> Firstly are you on any form of thyroid hormones at all..like T4, T3 or Armour and if so what?
> Here's why. I get lost with this, but my first reaction whan I started on Armour (which contains T3) but not on T4 meds was maybe something like a cholinergic drug drug for my bladder.
>
> I'm really lost here..the bladder nurse just told me a month oor so ago that my reaction were the same as happens occasionally for those taking cholinergic drugs.
>
> I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
>
> So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> Really I'm so lost here??
>
> Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
>
> Also I'm lost with this "hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors" too <g>.. If I say take some tyrosine I get a strong dopamine-like reaction maybe, like I can kinda "trip" on say 2g of tyrosine ..if that's what you mean ? I also get very tired after exercise, need to sleep for a day or two to feel good again..or doing anything actually <g>
>
> Jan
Hi Jan,I shouldn't be checking this board now but here I am.....
Cholinergic urticaria is a condition where your body becomes allergic to it's own sweat from overheating. When I exercise, after I've warmed up a bit, I start itching like crazy - like I could rip my flesh off it's so extreme. I've learned that it's an autoimmune response. I just noticed it within the last couple of years. I don't understand why they call it "cholinergic" or how choline fits into the picture. I would think it should be called "histaminic urticaria". Maybe someone else could shed some light here. I do have thyroid problems and I've taken both Armour and plain T4 but it doesn't have any impact on this condition. I don't think that our conditions are related at all. I do hope you get some relief with your situation though.
As for the hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors, that's something I've just started learning about. Todd (King Vultan) on the main board explained it to me. I had some surprising paradoxical reactions to dopaminergic meds and supplements. They all put me to sleep. This is generally thought to be a result of super sensitive (or too many or too dense) dopamine receptors. When most people get certain areas of their brains flooded with dopamine, they react as you would generally expect from stimulants. Those of us with this problem have receptors that are working overtime. My very crude understanding of the situation is that these receptors serve as a feedback mechanism. They sense too much dopamine and pull it out of there quickly leaving you with too little and therefore, they put you to sleep. Since I have anergic depression, I have been counting on dopaminergic augmentation. It has left me rather desperately trying to understand it all and find a way (if possible) to treat it. At least I understand now why I have no motivation! Hope that helps you to understand it.
Ok, go study!
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 23:14:38
In reply to Hives, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:41:57
> I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
>
> Strange how they are linka linked like...the immune and hormones and neurotransmitters..
>
> Is cholinergic urticaria like heat rash or something different?
>
Yeah, it's supposed to be the hives that I'm scratching but you can hardly notice any hives.
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 4:24:39
In reply to Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » karaS, posted by tealady on October 24, 2004, at 18:23:35
> I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
>
> So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> Really I'm so lost here??
>
> Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
Hi Jan,
From what I've read just now on the net, acetylcholine causes contraction of the bladder muscles to initiate urination....is that how you see it too?
Found this abstract about thyroid and bladder...
Influence of the thyroid state on the intrinsic contractile properties of the bladder muscle.
Department of Human Physiology, Faculty of Medical Sciences, University of Jos, Nigeria.The role of thyroid hormones on the contractile responses of the isolated rat urinary bladder strips to acetylcholine and potassium chloride (in depolarising Tyrode solution) was examined. Chronic administration of thyroxine (6-8 micrograms/100 g body wt/day) for 15 days caused stimulation of acetylcholine and potassium chloride-induced contractile responses of the rat urinary bladder strip. Thyroidectomy caused inhibition of acetylcholine and potassium chloride-induced contractile responses of the rat urinary bladder strip. These findings suggest that the thyroid state affects the intrinsic contractile state of bladder muscle.
and this about minerals that help with acetylcholine....
Effect of ions on the efflux of acetylcholine from peripheral nerve.
Dettbarn WD, Rosenberg P.
Department of Neurology, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, New York, USA.
The nerves from the walking leg of lobster released acetylcholine (ACh) even when the ends were tied off, although this release was significantly increased when the nerve endings were not tied. The resting nerves were kept in sea water containing physostigmine. In absence of physostigmine no ACh was found in the surrounding fluid. Removal of Ca from the sea water reduced the release of ACh, while increased concentrations of Ca had no significant effect. Removal of Mg++ or increased Mg++ concentrations in the presence of normal Ca++ concentrations increased the release of ACh. Increased K+ concentrations had a stimulating action on the efflux of ACh. Increased or reduced Na+ concentrations had only slight effects on the release of ACh in resting lobster nerve. During the 4 hr observation period the excised nerves were still able to synthesize ACh. The choline acetylase activity was stimulated by increased concentrations of Mg++ and K+. The effects of ions on the release of ACh are similar to those reported at the junction.
also phosphatidyl choline is a good source of choline for acetylcholine, B5 is needed along with manganese for the production too.
The enzyme which breaks down acetetylcholine is called acetylcholinesterase - pesticides and deadly nightshade foods contain inhibitors.
Vitamin B1 deficiency and alcohol consumption adversely affect acetylcholine (B1 is also needed to make NADPH)
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 7:34:14
In reply to Re: Hives » tealady, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 23:14:38
> > I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
> >
>interesting article on histamine, hives etc..
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1034/j.1398-9995.2002.1r3542.x/full/
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:46:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:24:15
>
> I am so amazed at how you've been able to determine cause and effect in your life and in how you've been able to so clearly identify your reactions to various supplements.It's taken around ten years to get somewhere, and there'e been a lot of trial and error - I've tended to try things, see how they feel, then try to work out why. Over the last few years, I've learnt to feel things to save money! Does it make my head feel better or worse when I hold it - get some strange looks in the health food shop!
>
> In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise. I had considered that adrenal fatigue was the culprit but I don't feel bad during exercise or immediately afterwards. It's only later on that I feel the need to sleep. I'm certain now that the exercise boosts dopamine and those darn autoreceptors overreact. Now I'm wondering if the receptor problem was caused by years of viral CFS, inflammation issues, and/or years of SSRI usage. If it's the latter then maybe I should not continue on the Cymbalta (even though it also targets NE).I worry about the reuptake inhibitors because several studies claim that dopamine and noradrenaline become neurotoxic if not safely detoxified... from the following article, it seems that drugs ought to be given along side glutathione!
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:57:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 24, 2004, at 16:32:02
>
> P.S. Re: my previous post, have you ever read "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD? If so, what did you think of it?
Looked up an extract on amazon - some of the ideas looked good advice, but a lot of the supplements he suggests I feel worse on!
phosphatidyl serine, acetyl-l-carnitine, DMAE and green tea all worsen my symptoms. Pushing acetylcholine, for me, seems to give me an excitotoxic reaction (ie, massive headache!).Please don't feel obliged to answer if you haven't time!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 12:33:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:57:38
tourette's and dopamine supersensitivity!
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:35:50
In reply to Re: Hives » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 7:34:14
> > > I used to get hives when I was about 12..I thought from long grass..but that was also just before I developed the darkened skin on knees and skin that didn't glow right etc..which is kinda low adrenal symptoms, and just at beginning of that puberty stage where the low thyroid could have started.
> > >
> >That's a long one so I skimmed it. The conclusion seems to be that continuous antihistamine usage is what's needed here. I wonder if taking adequate amounts of quercetin would do the job also or even Cromolyn Sodium. I should also be aggressively trying to counteract the inflammation occuring in my body as a result of this allergic condition, shouldn't I? It's so wierd when you get something out of the blue like this that you haven't had the rest of your life. If I could normalize my immune response, I could attack this at the start... Oh well, too many problems, too little time and money...
Kara
> interesting article on histamine, hives etc..
>
> http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1034/j.1398-9995.2002.1r3542.x/full/
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:45:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:46:30
> >
> > I am so amazed at how you've been able to determine cause and effect in your life and in how you've been able to so clearly identify your reactions to various supplements.
>
> It's taken around ten years to get somewhere, and there'e been a lot of trial and error - I've tended to try things, see how they feel, then try to work out why. Over the last few years, I've learnt to feel things to save money! Does it make my head feel better or worse when I hold it - get some strange looks in the health food shop!
> >
> > In the last couple of years I have developed cholinergic urticaria (with all of its attendant implications for auto-immune response and inflammation). (It may have been there longer but been camouflaged by the small amount of antihistaminic tricyclic that I took to help with sleep.) I think that my hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors are also a fairly recent phenomenon and I wonder if the two aren't related. I think that the autoreceptor problem is new because only recently have I noticed that I need to sleep about an hour or two after exercise. I had considered that adrenal fatigue was the culprit but I don't feel bad during exercise or immediately afterwards. It's only later on that I feel the need to sleep. I'm certain now that the exercise boosts dopamine and those darn autoreceptors overreact. Now I'm wondering if the receptor problem was caused by years of viral CFS, inflammation issues, and/or years of SSRI usage. If it's the latter then maybe I should not continue on the Cymbalta (even though it also targets NE).
>
> I worry about the reuptake inhibitors because several studies claim that dopamine and noradrenaline become neurotoxic if not safely detoxified... from the following article, it seems that drugs ought to be given along side glutathione!
>
> http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:q5kvewBkTIIJ:www.prozactruth.com/ritalinarticle.htm+cymbalta+dopamine+quinone&hl=en
Ray,That article is only about dopaminergics. I've heard/read about the potential neurotoxicity issues with dopamine boosting (taking stimulants) but stimulants are more about squeezing out more dopamine rather than preventing its reuptake. I don't know that this article is relevant at all for the SSRIs, NRIs or SNRIs.
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:58:52
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 11:57:38
> >
> > P.S. Re: my previous post, have you ever read "Brain Longevity" by Dharma Singh Khalsa, MD? If so, what did you think of it?
>
> Looked up an extract on amazon - some of the ideas looked good advice, but a lot of the supplements he suggests I feel worse on!
> phosphatidyl serine, acetyl-l-carnitine, DMAE and green tea all worsen my symptoms. Pushing acetylcholine, for me, seems to give me an excitotoxic reaction (ie, massive headache!).
>
> Please don't feel obliged to answer if you haven't time!
>
> Ray
I still think it's amazing how in tune you are with the effects of the supplements you try (seeing as I can detect no effect from 95% of the things I try) although I definitely remember when they have a very definite bad effect. But getting back to Dr. Dharma's book. It's a good book not just because of the supplements he suggests, but also because of the excercises/meditations he proposes. My only complaint is that he advises the use of a lot of supplements that are blood thinning - and he advises using them all together. I e-mailed him about that and he replied that if I was concerned that I should talk to my doctor.K
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:14:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 12:33:15
dopamine supersensitivity as a breakdown in balance of D1/D2 receptors, possible caused by long term antidepressant use?...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1979237
Posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:52:40
In reply to Re: Hives » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 12:35:50
. I wonder if taking adequate amounts of quercetin would do the job also or even Cromolyn Sodium. I should also be aggressively trying to counteract the inflammation occuring in my body as a result of this allergic condition, shouldn't I? It's so wierd when you get something out of the blue like this that you haven't had the rest of your life. If I could normalize my immune response, I could attack this at the start... Oh well, too many problems, too little time and money...
Yeah, anything that stabilizes the mast cells that store histamine should help.
Ray
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:56:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:14:40
> dopamine supersensitivity as a breakdown in balance of D1/D2 receptors, possible caused by long term antidepressant use?...
>I read this as IMI was potentiating the stimulant effect of something else not that IMI was causing the hypersensitivity of the autoreceptors.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1979237The second one I read as having to do with a genetic problem causing the sensitivity, no?
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:58:38
In reply to Re: Hives » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:52:40
>
> . I wonder if taking adequate amounts of quercetin would do the job also or even Cromolyn Sodium. I should also be aggressively trying to counteract the inflammation occuring in my body as a result of this allergic condition, shouldn't I? It's so wierd when you get something out of the blue like this that you haven't had the rest of your life. If I could normalize my immune response, I could attack this at the start... Oh well, too many problems, too little time and money...
>
>
> Yeah, anything that stabilizes the mast cells that store histamine should help.
>
> RayDo you take anything like that or don't you have a need for it? I know that you take the anti-homocysteine (anti-inflammatory) supplements.
K
Posted by tealady on October 25, 2004, at 22:42:34
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 4:24:39
>
> > I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> > I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
> >
> > So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> > have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> > Really I'm so lost here??
> >
> > Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
>
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> From what I've read just now on the net, acetylcholine causes contraction of the bladder muscles to initiate urination....is that how you see it too?I'm not sure Ray.
I spoke to Larrian on the net (she was a gyno-urologist) about this at the time and she said it was probably a combo of things..one linked to the fact that the bladder neck has numerous thyroid receptors ..which I guess maybe somehow reacted to the T3 in Armour. ..beats me.
I think the T3 helps with contraction of the bladder neck..but why one can't voluntarily release when you first encounter the T3 in Armour beats me...
(Larrian thought it may be related also to nerve damage from childbirth..years b4,combined with the T3 receptors in the bladder neck..she could be right, beyond me)What's really strange is that my own FT3 and Ft4 levels before thyroid meds weren't that low, although I had several symptoms of lacking thyroid hormones like the orange skin etc. which also has now disappeared.
I wonder sometimes if the antibodies alter ones thyroid hormones so they are not usable, but still show up as normal in blood tests..haven't heard of that one BTW..one of my dumb "theories"..but that whole thing is another topic, and one I doubt anyone has looked at!******************************************
Here's an old post of mine from when I had that bladder reaction
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=25868.253
"I'm on day 2 on Armour 1 grain. That's what I started on. Strange you mention the fluid/water retention. By lunchtime today my stomach had swollen up so it had a 7.5 months pregnant look- very taut as well. Then I got tired and lay down- fell asleep for 3 or 4 hrs. On waking I have been urinating lots and the bloating and tautness is gradually going down. I have only taken 1grain in the morning. It's 6 pm now, and the fluid retention has 3/4 gone"and an old post of someone else's.
"I have had terrible pains, muscle spasms, extreme fatigue, bloat and water retention, erratic heart beat etc. Im wondering if its because I was put one 1 grain and thats too much to start with or if its just that I cant tolerate any T3. Id been on Synthroid for many years and never had these problems..."
(yeah I went thru all of that too, just wanted to show I'm not the only one..but it is rare..only a couple of other girls have had this reaction that I've heard of in the past 3 years..so that probably makes it about a 1:10000 reaction <g>, at least <1:100)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=27696.1
"I find that my stomach (or bladder?) swells after the Armour. Actually I think it is my bladder as I cannot pass water until the Armour starts wearing off, and then only a trickle to start with. Before I'd run to the toilet at least you 15 times a day, same as you. And I didn't get much notice either- ie. I couldn't hole the need to urinate.
Now I can't pee(until the meds effect wears off). So in the afternoon it may trickle out , and in the middle of the night- you know about 4am , I am awoken by the need to burst and out it comes! Have you ever had this?
My face was extremely bloated before the Armour, especially when I was on T4 meds only(trialled for one month). At least I think it was when I was on T4- that was in August, it could have been before that. Sorry. So were my eyelids puffy.
Face and eyelids are no longer swollen on Armour. all facial swelling has gone. I'm still trying to figure out what is going on. I'm on week 3 of Armour, but I'm having that bladder/stomach swelling -urinating problem."
and one thing Larrian wrote about effects on bladder relating to celexa or other ssri and having difficulty in urinating ..sorry can't find original post(probably in one the forums that no longer exist)
"It's a very complicated issue of capillary endothelial response etc and serotonin/acetylcholine receptors in tissue membranes "..
it was all in a book and research papers she had written on cystitis apparently <g>
Here's the only paper I can find on a search..but I don't have cystitis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8220989
(put this paragraph in for Kara..probably not helpful)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=25868.313
At one point, I had emailed Dr. Derry on behalf of one of my Texas members who was having problems with bloating on Armour. He replied to the effect that this would occur as healing was taking place, and that it would resolve itself in time.
*****************it does resolve itself it time..I just don't really understand what was happening...
It actually makes your ability to hold way too good for your own good..and your bladder stretches beyond where it is supposed to..I was holding up to 1100ml urine (supposed to hold about 300-400 or so apparently)<g> Hey, I got it down to only having to get up once during the night, sigh. I'd been told by docs to learn to hold on! ..and to drink MORE when I told them my symptoms!
Back to the MAIN point..
I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..
Now DO I want it? LOL..
Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>I tried to work this out last year
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264169.htmlThe only thing I THINK I get is that T3 raises aceylcholinesterase?? Is that what you make out?
So the maybe it also allows more acetylcholine to be made ..or it to be made faster..or maybe it makes less?
>
> Found this abstract about thyroid and bladder...
>
> Influence of the thyroid state on the intrinsic contractile properties of the bladder muscle.
>
thanks for those abstracts Ray. Thanks for trying to help too<g>
Not sure what I make out of them..seem to be saying that thyroid hormones (T4) makes acteylcholine work better? like maybe thyroid hormones are needed sometimes too as receptors like in one of those articles they found "L-tri-iodothyronine(ie T3) nuclear receptors in fetal rat acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons" for the actylcholine to work ..
I note they used T4(and not T3 which is strange in research?)
and the effects I (and others) have noticed haven't occurred noticeably on T4..just on Armour ..strange>
> The enzyme which breaks down acetetylcholine is called acetylcholinesterase - pesticides and deadly nightshade foods contain inhibitors.as above with T3 <g> I think it helps with that one..not completely sure
>
> Vitamin B1 deficiency and alcohol consumption adversely affect acetylcholine (B1 is also needed to make NADPH)
>
Thanks again Ray.
I do have a bigger concern than all of this ..but this is a part of it.
My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine osmalality and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?
This is the reaon I had the concern with the bowel cleanse stuf..I don't think I need any more dehydration.Apparently to make ADH one needs Acetylcholine..so I was just trying to work it out, sigh.
Jan
>
>
Posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 3:20:06
In reply to Re: Hives » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:58:38
>
> Do you take anything like that or don't you have a need for it? I know that you take the anti-homocysteine (anti-inflammatory) supplements.
>I have taken quercetin in the past, but at the moment DHA and EPA work well enough. The quercetin worked brilliantly to start with, but after a while I also needed to take MSM to support it's detoxification, and not undermine sulfation of dopamine, for example.
I was wondering why you have symptoms of excess histamine, when noradrenaline should inhibit it's release - I was wondering if SSRIs or NSRIs could desensitize the noradrenaline receptor, so that histamine is released...this abstract seems to show that it might be possible....but then you can normally find an abstract to justify any line of thought!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6265809
Posted by tealady on October 26, 2004, at 4:58:23
In reply to Re: Hives » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 3:20:06
Hi Ray,
Just wondered if you had ever had one of these done?
The doc who is into the Gut-liver detox ran one on me,. It involved someting like a ECG I guess..stick circles on your hands etc and run something electrical..great description I know<g>It shows up a "Fluid Distribution" problem ..intracellular/extracellular water out by about 8.1% (maybe fits in with the osmolality serum test)
Also it showed "toxicity factor" was low , 3.1% with apparently <10% being good...which means my amalgams maybe aren't hurting me too much? No idea really<g>
Oh and my "Impendance Index" was too low...so I'm easy to electrocute I guess? LOL(OK no ideas)
Just wondered if you ever had one of these..or anyone?
This doc got the idea from a conference he went to lately in Vienna I thinkNo worries if you've never heard of it, don't expect anyone to <g>
Jan
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