Psycho-Babble Alternative Thread 272902

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Re: What's up? » DSCH

Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 6:38:55

In reply to Re: What's up? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:31:23

> > Tomorrow morning I asked about B6 but the herborist told me that the pure form is not OCT in Italy : o How much B6 would you suggest per day ?
>
> 25-50 mg seems to be right. Somewhere above 75-100 mg you can start causing nerve damage in the long run.
B6 neuropathy can occur at doses around 100 mg/day, but it seems to be due to idiopathic factors (unexplained differences between individuals). Most clearly defined B6 neuropathies occur after ingestion of gram doses daily for years, and even those are reversible upon discontinuation of the B6. See abstracts here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021101/msgs/126678.html

Re: An Idea » DSCH

Posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:28:31

In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 21:51:17

Ok, today I took tryptophane + ginko. Let's see if "the man" ipothesis is correct ;-)
One of things I noticed the first day I took tryptophane was that the colours look much more vivid. One other is that I'm experiencing some muscle pain (slight anyway, but boring). I don't know if the second is co-related but I seem to remember something like this when I took Prozac.
The third is the same old song: less emphatetic. But, and here comes the new ipothesis, maybe it's not meds' faults. Maybe it's just me. Maybe the meds give only me the "strenght" to be what I am. Very depressing field, so, let's move on ;-)

> I brought Ca+Mg on at the same time, and the lecithin+fish oil at another time.

> I no longer think too much in those categories anymore really.
Yeah, I think so. It's just to understand more easily what we're talking about. The OCD-thing, the ADHD thing and so on would be better. The old categories could be usuful only to suggest the first choice meds. But as we have discovered very early first choice doesn't mean best.
By the way, I'm curious to know how I'd react to a mood stabilizer. One day or another ...
> Lecithin and fish oil improve my visual clarity and connection with the world... I think.
Ok, connection with the world it's what I need : ) So I think tomorrow I'll buy some epa-dha. How much do you take per day ?

> Beats me. They were rather short acting for me (~4 hours), but I don't know about you or other people.
It result I'm a slow metabolizer of anything I take. If I take 500 mg tyrosine in the morning I'm energized all day long and I have trouble sleeping at night. I wonder if this could indicate some sort of physical problems.

how is going on your site ? and, above all, could you post again the link ? (I lost it : /)

Re: What's up? II » DSCH

Posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:34:53

In reply to Re: What's up? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:31:23

> We could take this over to private e-mail if you want.
Yeah, thanks, it would be nice for me. can I post here my mail ?

Re: What's up? II » Francesco

Posted by DSCH on November 16, 2003, at 10:35:07

In reply to Re: What's up? II » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:34:53

> > We could take this over to private e-mail if you want.
> Yeah, thanks, it would be nice for me. can I post here my mail ?
No need to. You can find my address on my home page (broken up to prevent web-crawl generated spam).
http://home.comcast.net/~gwp9120/index.html

Re: An Idea » Francesco

Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 8:45:13

In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:28:31

> The third is the same old song: less emphatetic. But, and here comes the new ipothesis, maybe it's not meds' faults. Maybe it's just me. Maybe the meds give only me the "strenght" to be what I am. Very depressing field, so, let's move on ;-)
I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)

Re: An Idea » JLx

Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:17:50

In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 8:45:13

> I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
>
> I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
>
> I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
(Let me preface all of the following with IMO, IMHO, maybe, and/or YMMV so I can use direct language for a change.)
I think you need to look at in layers of scale and in time.
Scale: you are not a monolith but a society of (usually, ideally) cooperating subroutines. And ultimately all of these rest upon the fuctioning of individual neurons. 'Self' as a seamless construct is an interesting illusion projected at some level of our consciousness, probably to make us 'saner' and less prone to detached self-exploration back when there was food to be gathered and game to be hunted.
Time: you won't alter your memories, so in that sense you retain continuity with who you were. You may alter how you reflect on them though.

Re: An Idea » JLx

Posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 11:39:29

In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 8:45:13

> I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
>
> I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
>
> I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
I totally agree with everything you said.
I use the terms like "my real self" only to indicate what I usually am when I don't take any psychotropic substance.
What I wanted to say is that the meds that have helped my concentration problems best are serotoninergic and that serotoninergic meds tend to lessen my empathy and that this bothers me.

Re: An Idea » DSCH

Posted by Francesco on November 21, 2003, at 11:52:54

In reply to Re: An Idea » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:17:50

> > I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
> >
> > I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
> >
> > I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
>
> (Let me preface all of the following with IMO, IMHO, maybe, and/or YMMV so I can use direct language for a change.)
>
> I think you need to look at in layers of scale and in time.
>
> Scale: you are not a monolith but a society of (usually, ideally) cooperating subroutines. And ultimately all of these rest upon the fuctioning of individual neurons. 'Self' as a seamless construct is an interesting illusion projected at some level of our consciousness, probably to make us 'saner' and less prone to detached self-exploration back when there was food to be gathered and game to be hunted.
>
> Time: you won't alter your memories, so in that sense you retain continuity with who you were. You may alter how you reflect on them though.
I totally agree also with DSCH with just one more thing to add. We need to talk about "selves" if we want to understand each other. Ordinary language is necessarily inaccurate but his inaccuracy is useful for many purposes.

Re: An Idea » Francesco

Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 12:24:36

In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 21, 2003, at 11:52:54

> > > I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
> > >
> > > I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
> > >
> > > I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
> >
> > (Let me preface all of the following with IMO, IMHO, maybe, and/or YMMV so I can use direct language for a change.)
> >
> > I think you need to look at in layers of scale and in time.
> >
> > Scale: you are not a monolith but a society of (usually, ideally) cooperating subroutines. And ultimately all of these rest upon the fuctioning of individual neurons. 'Self' as a seamless construct is an interesting illusion projected at some level of our consciousness, probably to make us 'saner' and less prone to detached self-exploration back when there was food to be gathered and game to be hunted.
> >
> > Time: you won't alter your memories, so in that sense you retain continuity with who you were. You may alter how you reflect on them though.
>
> I totally agree also with DSCH with just one more thing to add. We need to talk about "selves" if we want to understand each other. Ordinary language is necessarily inaccurate but his inaccuracy is useful for many purposes.
I don't think "selves" is quite the right word as these subroutines are too fragmentary on their own.
Looking at my own post I think "illusion" is also not a good word choice, as having a sense of proper self is a indication that these routines are well integrated.
Tourette's is one disorder where a subroutine or set of them makes their presence known by failing to cooperate fully. Tourette-ers often speak of the tics and rituals coming from "It", separate from what they percieve as their own self.
People who have had their corpus callosum cut can be trained to perform certain tasks while blindfolded. When the blindfold is removed so they can see themselves performing that task they'll remark that "I didn't do that!" or something on that order. The "I" in this case being the set of routines incorportating language, on the left side of the brain.

which adhd ? » DSCH

Posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32

In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 12:24:36

Sorry DSCH I was saying something different, and not very important. I was just saying that even if the sense of having a self doesn't indicate there is something like the self, we have to use words like "I" and "You" because they're useful.
I'm beginning to think triptophan is not for me. It makes some of my ADHD syntoms worse and makes me more argumentative. Now it's out and I can feel it's out.
Can you help me in make the picture clearer ?
My syntomps (without any meds) are:
Careless about the future.
Tendency to procrastinate.
No anxiety.
No depression.
Problems in concentrating in reading, watching a movie, and so on
Problems in concentrating gets worse when I try to concentrate
Daydreaming most part of the day
Dyslexic sometimes (anyway I'm not sure "dyslexic" is the right term)
Easily bored (expecially when I'm alone)
Shy
I interrupt people when they talk to say stupid (sometimes funny) things
Egocentric
Not agitated
Problems with motivation
Big problems with organization
Problems with autorithy and following rules
Problems with following also the rules I give to myself
Incostant in relationships
"I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow and I don't know now what I'll do after this posting"
...
In your opinion could all this indicate some other kind of ADHD (Amen types) other than inhattentive ?

How about this? A much better answer I think! » francesco

Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 19:32:48

In reply to which adhd ? » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32

> Can you help me in make the picture clearer ?
I'll try.
> My syntomps (without any meds) are:
>
> Careless about the future.
> Tendency to procrastinate.
Generally common to all types.
> No anxiety.
> No depression.
OK, this rules out limbic ADD.
> Problems in concentrating in reading, watching a movie, and so on
> Problems in concentrating gets worse when I try to concentrate
> Daydreaming most part of the day
Again, generally common. Daydreaming would tend to point towards inattentive-type, while activities involving physical movement more classic ADHD.
> Dyslexic sometimes (anyway I'm not sure "dyslexic" is the right term)
Trouble intrepreting letters, numbers, writing mistakes/transpositions, spelling? Temporal lobe?

> Easily bored (expecially when I'm alone)
Common to multiple types. Could be a sign that you are naturally extrovert.
> Shy
Maybe inattentive. Maybe not even necessarily morbid though. ;-) Perhaps a sign of mild social anxiety (yes you can be an extrovert and have this too! it just makes life that much more difficult) ;-)
> I interrupt people when they talk to say stupid (sometimes funny) things
Classic ADHD mostly. But this is something in Tourette's I believe too. Temporal lobe?
> Egocentric
Normal. LOL :-D
> Not agitated
Inattentive type.
> Problems with motivation
> Big problems with organization
Common to all basically.
> Problems with autorithy and following rules
> Problems with following also the rules I give to myself
Somewhat more interesting and characteristic I think. Some of that oppositional-defiant going on maybe. Once again, Touretters can have this too. Temporal lobe?
> Incostant in relationships
> "I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow and I don't know now what I'll do after this posting"
Common to all types.
OK... based on this what do I think?
I think we can safely elminate limbic ADD.
The oppositional behavior, blurted witicisms are not common to straight inattentive type ADD. I think we can set that aside too.
You are not restless or agitated though and tend towards daydreaming so I will set aside classic ADHD.
OK, we are left with:
Overfocus ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub3.html
(OCD + ADD)
We've been here already though. Why did Anafranil, which was a godsend for your study habits and writing (your Anfranil posts remain by far the superior in terms of your writing to the Board... but maybe not when it comes to actually *communicating*!), make so many over things worse? Amen prefers Effexor, but that's basically a cleaner version of Anafranil's psychopharmacological profile (no receptor anatagonisms). I think we should concentrate on the remaining two then.
Temporal lobe ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub5.html
(aggression, paranoia, atypical pains, vision/reading problems + ADD)
Ring-of-fire ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub6.html
(resembles bipolar disorder in certain respects, takes elements from overfocus and temporal lobe ADD)
Anti-convulsants are what Amen usually resorts to for TL-ADD and RoF-ADD.
Serotonergic meds (and by extension probably tryptophan as well) tend to make temporal lobe problems worse, but help the cingulate problems. This might be the explanation for your mixed responses to Anafranil, SSRIs, and tryptophan.
Here are temporal lobe supplements according to Amen:
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/supplements/default.asp
GABA (but does this cross the BBB?)
Phosphatidylserine (or boost B12, folic acid, essential fatty acids, and the other phosphatidyls (i.e fish oil and lecithin))
Gingko
Vitamin E
Ibuprofen (anti-inflammatory)
I would say niacin/niacinamide (which your multi lacks IIRC) would be a good addition to the list. Picamilon (Niacin bonded to GABA) might even be ideal.
I think we have an explanation for why gingko and omega-3 have been better for you than the others so far.

My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco

Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58

In reply to which adhd ? » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32

I didn't properly cap the last post off.
Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
The oppositional-type stuff, the physical "oddities" (pains), and their becoming worse on tryptophan (and anafranil too?) point towards the temporal lobes.
Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.
Amen, in his book "Healing ADD", tells of a juvenile patient with RoF-ADD who benefited greatly from a combination of GABA, omega-3, and SJW.