Posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 13:27:27
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » violette, posted by Dinah on August 3, 2010, at 9:21:24
> One of the greatest values I have gotten from Babble came from the threads that upset me most.
I have had similar feelings as you, Dinah. Ron and I had a productive discussion on the Admin. board about a disagreement a while back. We also found one commonality in our disagreement. But overall the conversation was self-exploratory for me (and maybe for him too?), even though it upset me a bit at first. And I enjoyed talking with Ron about the topic.
But in thinking of SLS's recent post to me in this thread, I probably need to remind myself more often this forum isn't a therapist's office. At the same time, I feel strongly about this issue as a result of my beliefs and values-just as you feel strongly about a rating system due to your beliefs and values. Do you see your strong feelings about a proposed rating system as a distortion on your part? Maybe a bit of both? It doesn't have to be either/or.
But just as you have a different view than Bob about the effect of such a system, I have a different view of self-expression toleration.
Psychoanalysts are notorious for letting someone process their anger-they can really tolerate alot. They have limits too-such as physical violence. And people change by developing insight from working through those feelings. Also-anger is part of the grieving process of human beings. So i tend to agree with this approach, with limits, and am more tolerant as long as someone is not directing their anger at specific individual in a bullying or hurtful way....
But just as SLS's post reminded me to adjust my expectations, it also confirmed the validity of my beliefts and values that behavioralism does not work.
Speaking of murder, I don't think it's working to just kill off terrorists. As much as we address the behavior, people still want to become terrorists.
Of course we can't let people go around and kill others, but it doesn't seem to be working to tell them over and over and over again that their 'behavior' is wrong. They are conditioned from a young age to believe this behavior is the solution to their problems. I do not think it is realistic to expect someone who grew up being conditioned to take that route and to have a victim stance, to suddenly take our advice-hey, you can achieve your political goals through non-violent means. And addressing the behavior by hunting them down and killing them off is actually reinforcing their victim stance-and maybe even strengthing their will-rather than producing change.
Because the West has learned this after our violent wars, doesn't mean they will just suddenly wake up and realize there are other solutions. We learned the hard way too-Vietnam for one. But it took people being personally affected by the war for us to realize the Cold War was wrong-to truly get the insight-before protests against this method become a contagion in our society.
I think instead, if someone's father, brother, or sister has found an alternate solution to terrorism successfully-such as started a legitimate business to improve their circumstances or a peaceful non-profit org-I think it would more likely have an effect on other terrorists-spreading the insight that they have the power to change their situation. But people are not going to get that insight until they feel it themselves-instead of think it, despite being shown, directed, and told over and over. Being told to change behavior, despite pointing out to people the positive things they can do-does not allow such insights to be realized for those who are conditioned and reinforced in their views-one must experience it to change that will. So things never change. We can get better at fighting them off, but they might get better at attacking us as trying to change their behavior by simply killing them off-instead of empowering them in positive ways-is reinforcing that same victimhood. The #1 worse place to live in the world now? Iraq.
I guess I didn't see Ron as a terrorist. But I do realize that as much as I think it would benefit people to allow this forum to be more like a 'therapist's office', I should adjust my expectations a bit. And thanks for the conversation.
poster:violette
thread:956448
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20100716/msgs/957054.html