Posted by Ron Hill on March 18, 2008, at 23:37:25
In reply to Nardil plus PEA or DLPA, posted by Carlton on March 17, 2008, at 13:08:14
> First, I am aware that taking any supplements with Nardil is dangerous and can, ultimately, be fatal. For that matter, it is my understanding that having a glass of wine and cheese can be fatal for uses of phenelzine.
> With that said, I am aware that there have been studies which tested very low dosages of PEA with certain MAO inhibitors, who had been administered selegiline (L-deprenyl). I am not aware of any studies which combined PEA or DLPA as an adjunct treatment with Phenelzine for depression. I quote from one study, below, but the information regarding PEA with Phenelzine is sparse, to say the least.
> Is there a difference between Nardil and selegiline (L-deprenyl)?
Yes, there is a very important difference. Selegiline is a selective MAOI-B at 10 mg/day or less. However, Nardil is an MAOI-A and MAOI-B.MAO-A occurs mainly in the intestine and brain, and the enzyme preferentially oxidizes (inactivates) serotonin, epinephrine, norepinephrine, and octopamine.
MAO-B occurs in the brain and in platelets as well as in other tissues, and it inactivates phenylethylamine (PEA), phenylethanolamine, N-methyl-histamine, and benzylamine. Both enzymes (MAO-A and MAO-B) metabolize tyramine, tryptamine and dopamine.
Elevated levels of norepinephrine and other catecholamines can cause a hypertensive crisis.
A selective MAOI-B, like selegiline at a dosage of 10 mg/day or less, does not inhibit the MAO-A enzymes and, therefore, norepinephrine and epinephrine levels are held in check and not allowed to elevate in concentration.
However, Nardil inhibits MAO-A as well as MAO-B. Therefore, anything that causes an elevation in norepinephrine or epinephrine goes unchecked and the concentrations increase. This can cause a hypertensive crisis.
> And, secondly, has anyone tried to supplement Phenelzine (nardil) with PEA or DLPA (DL-phenylalanine).
PEA, yes. But, there is no way in heck that I would try adding DLPA or LPA to Nardil because I deem it way too risky. Adding DLPA or LPA to selegiline is fine, but I would never add either of them to Nardil.
L-phenylalanine is the precursor to PEA. However, L-phenylalanine IS ALSO the precursor to tyrosine which then continues on as follows; tyrosine > L-dopa > dopamine > norepinephrine > epinephrine. The L-dopa and the three catecholamines (DA, NE, and epinephrine) scare the heck out of me as a Nardil user. DLPA or LPA combined with Nardil is a hypertensive crisis waiting to happen as I see it. Way too risky in my book.
> If so, what dosage of PEA or DLPA and Nardil?A couple of days ago I began my second trial of PEA with Nardil. It is important to begin with a very low dosage of PEA. Take too much and it can cause a hypertensive crisis. Please be very careful. I am currently taking 10 mg/day of PEA with 75 mg/day of Nardil. It is too early in the trial to discuss its efficacy.
I have found that I need to take a couple of milligrams of PEA every two hours otherwise the beneficial effect begins to wear off. The PEA product that I bought comes in 250 mg capsules, so measuring out two milligrams requires an accurate scale or some alternative measuring method. What I do is empty one 250 mg capsule into two gallons of water and shake thoroughly. Each day I fill my personal water bottle from this two gallon standardized solution. My personal water bottle has graduated milliliter markings on the outside of the see-through bottle. Therefore, I can calculate the amount of PEA that I take by recording the amount drank from my water bottle. Make sense?
Carlton, if you decide to try this cocktail, monitor your blood pressure frequently and keep your nifedipine (hypertensive anecdote) handy. My experience is that even with low dosages of PEA added to Nardil my blood pressure rises. A little too much PEA and it will cause anxiety and uneasiness.
> What were the effects?
Read my post regarding my first trial at: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/neuro/20080204/msgs/813379.html
Carlton, please list all of the medications that you are on, and the dosages of each.Be safe.
-- Ron
dx: Bipolar II, with ultra rapid cycling (15 days for one complete cycle), and mild OCPD
300 mg/day Trileptal (Note: Trileptal is my antimanic med. If I get hypomanic, I jump it up to 600 or 900.)
200 mg/day Lamictal
250 mg/day Keppra
75 mg/day Nardil
1.875 mg/day Deplin
10 mg/day Phenylethylamine (PEA)
> "Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients." See Sabelli H, Fink P, Fawcett J, et al. Sustained antidepressant effects of PEA replacement. J Neuropsychiatry
> 1996;8:16871
> "In depressed subjects treated with an MAOI, PEA markedly improves mood (because PEA is rapidly metabolized. PEA alone produces no noticeable effects). The addition of 10 to 30 mg/day of PEA to current treatment withamitriptyline plus phenelzine terminated the episode of depression in 2 of the 3 inpatients with MOD who had not achieved any significant recovery with tricyclic antidepressants, MAOI, or their combination.> 98 No significant side effects were noted. Patients noted a reduction of appetite, which had been increased by the antidepressants used." Sabelli H, Javaid J. Phenylethlyamine modulation of affect: therapeutic and diagnostic implications. J Neuropsychiatry Clin Neuroscience 1995;7:614
poster:Ron Hill
thread:818442
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20080316/msgs/818743.html