Posted by linkadge on October 3, 2003, at 14:15:36
In reply to Re: Choline idea is BS?, posted by Joe Schmoe on October 3, 2003, at 9:19:28
>I should note I have also been taking Wellbutrin >for some time, and my Celexa dose was only 20mg, >so I suspect my dopamine levels may not have >been that low. I stopped taking Wellbutrin >during the Celexa withdrawal just to see if it >made any difference - it didn't, and I haven't >resumed it yet. I like Wellbutrin because I can >go on and off it at will with no side effects.
This can change the nature of Celexa withdrawl
>Well, if that is true, I have to wonder why, >after two years of Celexa, I still had virtually >no libido.
The libido effect is only partially explained by low dopamine. Even with psychostimulants/ and or wellbutrin, there tends to be a degree of genetal anesthesia.
>I did not experience this. I know what a >dopamine surge feels like from the first few >weeks of taking Wellbutrin and I felt nothing >like that during this withdrawal. My appetite >was not affected, I did not lose weight, and I >felt no increase in libido either. I am still >waiting for my libido to return actually.It is of course very short lived. Dopamine is useless if serotonin levels are low. When I say a rush, I perhaps mean more of a feeling of clarity.
This experience is the same for missing a dose of long half-life SSRI. You still have 5ht boosting going on, but you also get a dopamine boost during a short time of missed dose.
Well it seems obvious low serotonin has something to do with it, but the scientific report I cited made reference to low acetylcholine, not high dopamine, during SSRI withdrawal. Is there a paper that advocates the high dopamine theory? I certainly did not feel any speed-like effects over the last several weeks.>The dopaminergic and cholinergic systems are intricately intertwined. The drop in acetylcholine may be responsible for certain aspects of SSRI withdrawl, but I wouldn't think it would ameleorate the emotional response to SSRI withdrawl. I certainly don't mean a long lasting euphoria in any sense. My withdrawl went like this. For the first 15 hrs or so of missing celexa, I felt great (better than average day on celexa), like I didn't need it and like I could conquer the withdrawl. However shortly after I experienced effects such as.
Anger, and extreme irritability. [felt like smashing things that weren't working] and extreme stubbornness [could not stop doing things that had no relavence at all] both of which are consistent with high dopamine - low serotonin model.
>{Boosting cholinergic transmission can intesify >that by increasing dopaminergic transmission. }
>I admit I have never read anything about this >one way or the other. Is choline given to >Parkinson's patients?I have seen it recomended to parkinsons patients.
There was a study done which showed that choline is contraindicated in those with depression. It noted that in addition to mildly enhancing acetylcholine neurotransmission, it had an enhancement effect on dopaminergic neurotransmission. It theorized that part of the reason choline perpetuated depression was by enhancement of dopaminergic system and subsequent attentuation of the serotogenic system.
>That may be, but depression is not the problem >at this point - discontinuation of Celexa is, >despite a gradual taper. In the last 24 hours >have finally started to feel some improvement >and can walk in a (mostly) straight line.Yes but you must that you problems are compounded by a somewhat low mood. The brain zaps you get (or most people get) when you move suddenly are because of noradenic releas onto hypersensitive noradrenic receptors.
>I did taper it, starting at 20, which is a low >dose to begin with, and going to 10mg for a >week, then 5mg for a week, then 2.5mg for a >week. I was >surprised by the severity f the >withdrawal. I am >also on Klonopin so I was >surprised by the amount >of anxiety and phobia->like symptoms I have >experienced.This is common. The reason you felt good enough to get off Celexa was because your brain was in good balence. It can take a while for the brain to reset itself. It is easy while on an AD to forget pre-AD life. Thats why I recomend implementing anything and everything that can help stave off a relapse.
>I guess my point is that if you boost serotonin >levels you are in effect going backwards in the >taper process. At this point I just want to get >it over with.
I know what you feel. When you're on the downhill you don't want to stay there. So you think that by running faster down the railroad tracks you will avoid the train.
What I am saying is that there is a high insidence of relapse when coming off AD's. You do have a predisposition to depression, or you wouldn't be on AD's in the first place. You took them for one reason alone - you needed them.That is why I recomend implementing suplements, and other things like exercise (to partake in - indefinately) that will help stave off the chances of relapse. I know what you want - just to be free from everything - for me that wasn't an option. THats also why I built my own rTMS device.
>Unfortunately I have come to regard these things >as something of a poison to be gotten out of my >system at all costs.
When we feel good - the drug companies are miracle workers, when we feel lousy they are low life backstabbers with only one intent.
That is the common mechanism of all AD treatments, rTMS, vitamin D, lithium ECT
etc... neurogenesis.
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:264315
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030928/msgs/265250.html