Posted by temoigneur on May 3, 2003, at 2:45:00
In reply to Re: Sorry Ace, my pdoc I r taking ur lead, advice? » temoigneur, posted by ace on May 3, 2003, at 0:52:56
Ace, it's late now and I should be in bed, but wow, do we have commonalities, I started to suffer almost unbearably when I was 14 as well, now 24 also. I think for myself, the CBT was hope, and when it didn't materialize, I relate to Neitschze, if I'm reading it correctly that people in the throngs of mental illness tend to dislike themselves, as was certainly the case with me, but at the risk of offending you're seemingly definitive sensibilities about psychology vs drugs - and I don't say this to offend, just to tell you that there is a motivational speaker talks about there being of course a wide range of negative emotions, but in the end, they all boil down to anger. His take on anger is that it's not helpful to express to others, or learn to live with or dwell on, but rather to accept that we are responsible for our emotions. He says this in the context that the more control one thinks one has over their life, the greater degree of mental health they'll enjoy. Now when I first heard this, I thought "well yes that's a convienent way for the healthy executive living in a posh gated community, to disregard the millions who have now control over their suffering, and feel more secure because they have full control over their lives. Obviously this man has gone to far, and I hope he's ignorant rather than someone perpetuating capitalist genocide, But then I began to think of how in my own life, I can blame things on meds, that can infact be controlled IN SPITE of the meds. For instance weight gain, I have the OCD thought that if I don't eat or do whatever my head is telling me I'll loose control, but when I stand up to that thought, after time I have found that I do definately have more control than I orginally thought. How does one go about discovering this, how did I discover this, I think it was unconscious, I just made a decision to confront things head on, and like you said, many times it made things messy, but from that I learnt that those were OCD thoughts, and other things I confronted which I thought were OCD, I learned were more matters of self control, so what I'm saying is I think there may be some truth in the thought that even very mentally ill people can have some control over their health by and therby enjoy better mental health, without medication. What I'm hearing now is that anger is unproductive, and I just tell myself that "yes, you can be bitter at people, be bitter that your mentally ill, be bitter that your gay, and your family has a hard time with it, but when you're angry it only clouds your thinking, and alienates you, nothing good comes from anger - at least what I'm thinking now. So when I get angry I try stepping back and telling myself that I could be angry, but what will it accomplish. This speaker contends that all -ve emotions boil down to anger through his exhaustive research, and if I can realize that there's nothing productive, noble, or good about anger, I can diffisue some of it, and it must say it has made a difference in my life recently. I don't mean to upset, just share my experience.
Bon Courage, God Bless
Ben, (also andrew I have access to a book on the latest advances made in anxiolytics edited by Dr. Nutt, and Dr. Briley in the UK, I think it is a fairly authoritative source in terms of currency and scientific soundness, (from what little I know) email me if you are interested in this Bentley79@hotmail.com Also Andrew, when I listen to the motivation spkr, at first my obsessions get worse, but like meditation it's a discipline to follow through, and test your limits to see what you can incorporate and, what falls short of your experience. I would send you the series if you like, anything to help.
God Bless ( Even though as in the vien of Neitschze's thinking he doesn't intervien like we'd like him to, I feel like we're here on our own in the important times frankly, and we have to be God's light to eachother, because he doesn't intervien - many theories why, but to leave my environment brighter than when I entered, I choose to believe God is good, although I have no proof whatsoever, but I choose to be a positive person, live in optimism, and await the day we'll know.
God bless
Ben
> > Ace, there are no words for the attention you've given me, thanks.
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> No problems mate. I feel very happy I can help you/
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> I definately want to keep in touch, it seems we have a lot in common, and you eloquently described how using CBT for some types of anxiety is like adding salt to a wound.
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> Yeah, I mean, I've done intense research on CBT and it is true it is very popular. This popularity, i believe, stems from it's congruence with application to those who have no psychopathology. In other words, when a healthy person, feels down because he lost a race or something like that, CBT can be useful. But for someone with clinical (ie psychiatric depression) it is ineffective, inappropriate and bordering on gross negligence on the part of the practicer. I actually tried CBT for 2 years to alleviate my (episodic) depression. I was extremely persistent and thorough. It fell short miserably. This CBT nonsense, is trying aimlessly push against the pull of a person. If a person who has severe depression is down CBT causes a dynamic of frustration. Of a person trying to push against nature (ie their depression in the form of a chemical imbalance). We reajust this problem by changing the nature (the depressed brain) through realigning the neurotransmitter imbalance. I have read and wrote to David D. Burns, a prominent CBT clinician. Albeit, he seems very amicable, he is so ridiculously naive in his views. Hmmmm... I really would like to see the statistical design of his studies! Same goes for Albert Ellis, and Tim Beck. These clinicians seem to be grossly confusing normal unhappiness and clinical depression, the latter of which never substatially responds to CBT, or for any length of time. BUT, the above being so, CBT is very health for those sans real chemical imbalances, but rather are having normal problems of life.
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> I went through an intense, four hr/day exposure desensitization program in California. The psychologist had to tell me to take it easy at one time, as I was approaching the therapy so vigorously, but I'm very confused. I seemed to be getting better, until they started talking about me returning home, I'm partially inclined to think that any "progress" that may have been attributed to the therapy was largely the effect of me leaving an environemnt of highly expressed emotion, (home) - which was hard for my situation - and settling into a more stable environment.
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> Very insightful idea. I would tend to agree. Don't forget their is a placebo effect in CBT.
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> My symptoms never went away except for one day when I went to berkeley, it was maybe the happiest day I can remember in about five years, I had my faculties about me, I didn't want to leave. But my response was confounding, the next day we went to napa valley, and I was so anxious, I thought I'd collapse and have a full blown seizure if I was approached by someone.
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> I'm very sad this happened, but It doesn't suprise me. I would personally stay clear of psychologists (believe me, I study physics, chem and other sciences). Psychology is NOT a science. I really do ponder how these psychologists really think they help. Once again, for personality D/Os they might but for people like you and me and most of the other brave spirits on this board (with chemical probs, Personality D/O is NOT such, BTW) they will likely rub salt in the wound, witheir 'affirmations', 'visualisation', and 'implosive' techniques. And BTW, I strongly disagree that they should have ANY right in prescribing medicines, they are pushing for this now, trying to be real scientists! Actually do me a favour, prent this to you pdoc, and tell me if he agrees or not.
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> When i went home, it was awful - Lending credence to your pt of view, I was worse than ever, I was now confronting situations head on as I had been taught and I found myself among other things, burning myself with an iron to ward off suicidal thoughts, wandering in a downtown parking lot, until my youth paster found me and went out of his way to take me home, then I went to church where I was compelled to reveal my sexual history to some of the kids - thankfuly they were wonderful, but I only on like this in the hope that if you had doubts that perhaps CBT could be helpful for all kinds of OCD, perhaps this could help put some perspective on things, although there are confounding factors I guess.
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> This sounds awful, and we now need some agressive medical strategies to assuage your sx. First of all, you sound like you have a good doctor - ie, he is willing to precribe an MAOI. Tell him I applaud him!
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> I would forget about facing your sx head on. Don't aggravate them by such tactics. Just do your best to ignore them for the moment, until YOUR special magic pill(s) is found. I will tell you the opposite of any non-psychiatric therapist: HIDE from your sx, try to stay clear however you can. Now, we have tried some drugs, so lets try some more.
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> 1.Nardil - up to 90mg
> 2.Nardil + Zyprexa or Risperidone (low dose)
> 3.Elavil + Nardil (imperative you start Elavil before)
> 4. Nardil + Klonopin (this should be a real kick in the pants to your OCD and anxiety D/O's -- sitting in my room I have extensive clinical trials of Klonopin combined, or even alone, with an AD does amazing things. I would try this first line)
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> Experimentals
> 1. Nardil + Clonidine (esp for ADHD)
> 2. Nardil + Pindolol
> 3. Nardil + Bromocriptine
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> Be careful with the first two. They can easil precipitate depression or wierd things. After reading the pharmacology of Clonidine I didn't try it - it can do all sorts of things.
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> After the above I'd move onto Parnate, but let's take one thing at a time.
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> BTW, these are only suggestions, which you can pass by your doctor. I'm sure he is batting for you 100%. I personally think one of the above will bring %90+ relief, which is what you want.
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> > About me apologizing for using your mail, and feeling like I was an imposition, it's a combo of neurosis, and me having sent you an email, asking a number of questions, without response - but I TOTALLY understand that you were going through a terrible time with your ocd then, as I've kept up on your posts, and anyway, it's your perogative if you want to respond or not
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> That's cool! My biggest prob at the moment is my intensive studies of physics, chemistry, and psychopharmacology. I also do Philosophy at uni, but I naturally think philosophically, so I never really study as such for that topic.
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> > Andrew, I'm stronger with words, I'm guessing that you might have a real aptitude for Chemistry and Physics, I enjoy them, but my gifts lie in verbal communication, the arts, ect.
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> Great!! I love the arts! Try reading some David Hume, Arthur Schopenhauer, Ludwig Wittgenstein. These philosophers blow my mind! Fundamentally everything is philosophy - chemistry and physics are just a man-made 'reality' we transpose on this thing we percieve as life. But they are helpful! Without them means no psyciatric meds!
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> > Also you asked which email persuaded my doctor and I to go on nardil, I'll post it as "Ripples" haha.
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> > I know you must be a person of incredible fibre and intelligence to go through what you have, I would very much like to keep in touch.
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> I really appreciate those statements. Not soliciting sympathy, but from the age of 14 (I am now 24) i have endured tremendous mental pain, at times varying in degree. I have never had a 'spontaneous recovery', except with meds. Every day, except when I have the appropriate drug, there is much turmoil in my brain. But this makes me a much stronger being. I smile when I suffer. Or I try!
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> Like NIETZSCHE said :"to those human beings who are of any concern to me, I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I should wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not-- that one endures"
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> Contrary to what a lot of people say Nietzsche was a very kind-hearted, friendly man. This above paragraph exemplifies his own attidude to HIS suffering. And I use it on myself many a time. I always will AFFIRM life, even when I am in the throes of terrible suffering. There is a beauty about a spirit who suffers but never gives in (Suicides). Of course I want happiness, just like you and every being, but this is the most noble and productive way of looking at your pain while it's there - draw ANY strength you can from it.
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> A person who persevers in spite of all is a person who is God-like.
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> > b.
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> > Take care, and God Bless.
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> You take care and feel free to post me whenever. Tell me if you want my email.
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> Keep your head up, brave person.
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> God Bless,
> Andrew.
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poster:temoigneur
thread:222834
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030429/msgs/224022.html