Posted by bozeman on March 29, 2003, at 17:18:27
In reply to Re: Miraculous results with magnesium!, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2003, at 10:55:32
JLx and Larry Hoover:
I've inserted comments as notated below. I apologize for what may be tough to read since I've left in your comments intact.SLS:
You asked me several weeks ago (in response to a different thread) what kind and dosage of magnesium I was taking. Answers included below (if you can find them. :-) I didn't feel comfortable including just part of the previous post since it's so deeply involved.> > > Another excellent form is magnesium malate, something highly recommended for fibro sufferers.
> >
> > I confess to not understanding the science behind the different types of magnesium available. Do you know why malate specifically would be recommended for that?
>
> The second term in the name of a magnesium salt, for example, is called the counter ion. In a magnesium salt, the magnesium is ionized, taking on a positive charge, and the counter ion is negative, forming a neutral molecule. In the case of magnesium chloride, the chloride has no physiological effect, as chloride is one of the most common ions in the body already. What makes it so effective is its high solubility. In the case of other counter ions, e.g. aspartate or malate, the counter ion does have an independent physiological effect. In essence, some magnesium salts have a single mode of action (neutral counter ion), whereas others have dual effects.
>
(bozeman comment 1)
The chloride ion actually can be used, as well . . . in certain circumstances. It's what your body uses to produce hydrochloric acid in the stomach so you can digest your food, and make some partial use out of the inorganic minerals you get like calcium carbonate -- the HCl can actually liberate some of the calcium, but only if you have enough HCL in your stomach. Especially for people on a low-salt diet, chloride is valuable. For years I was vegetarian and used no salt on my food, so much so that after analyzing my symptoms, and ordering blood tests, stomach acid and stool analysis, my doctor ordered me to eat more salt. My blood levels of chloride were low-normal, but I had none to spare, so stomach acid suffered. I started salting my food again (which was really hard!) and within a month the indigestion, gas, etc. had gone away, and I actually felt much better, too. But not getting enough chloride will be a rare problem. Most excess sodium in the diet comes from preservatives and additives -- according to my doctor, everyday table salt is pretty safe in most situations (though admittedly not all.) But most people do get enough salt that they will not have the chloride shortage I had.
(end bozeman comment 1)>
> Malic acid, if I recall correctly, enhances the Krebs cycle activity. The Krebs cycle is the process used by the body for liberating energy from fat.
>(bozeman comment 2)
This excerpt from the following website says it better than I could:
http://www.prohealthnetwork.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3113/T/Both/" . . .Fibromyalgia pain may respond within 48 hours, while fatigue may take about two weeks.
The effectiveness of the supplement has a sound scientific base. Malic acid, a fruit acid extracted from apples and widely used in the food industry, is essential in the formation of ATP, which is our body’s energy source. Malic acid has the ability to allow the body to make ATP more efficiently, even under low oxygen, or hypoxic, conditions. Magnesium is a mineral that is required for over 100 enymatic reactions in the body. Interestingly, many researchers such as Dr. Cheney, have noted that a large percentage of patients are magnesium depleted on an intra-cellular basis (inside the cell). Standard blood tests are not sensitive to intra-cellular magnesium.
In a study published in the May, 1995 edition of the Journal of Rheumatology, the results of FM treatment with malic acid were assessed in terms of pain, tenderness, ability to function, and psychological well-being.
The results showed no therapeutic effects on Fibromyalgia symptoms when malic acid was taken at the dosage of 600mg for twice a day for four weeks. However, when the dosage of malic acid was increased to 1200mg twice a day there were significant reductions in the pain and tenderness of the Fibromyalgia symptoms. [Treatment of Fibromyalgia syndrome with Super Malic: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover pilot study. Russell IJ; Michalek JE; Flechas JD; Abraham GE; J Rheumatol, 22(5):953-8 1995 May] "So, Larry, you're right about it being a Krebs Cycle potentiator.
(end bozeman comment 2)>
> I personally happen to have some of the symptoms of fibro. Given that malic acid may be beneficial for the condition, I *may* obtain more benefit from magnesium malate than from magnesium chloride, for example.
>(bozeman comment 3)
Specifically for the fibromyalgia, yes, this may be the case. But I doubt if you would fail to benefit from the magnesium chloride, since according to many sources, including my doctor, virtually everyone with a chronic or serious health problem is deficient in intracellular magnesium (as noted above in the fibromyalgia study). Magnesium is absolutely essential to so many of the body's systems -- it catalyzes hundreds of reactions, and is integral to perhaps thousands more, including the regulation of the calcium channel in the brain, the contract/relax function of our muscles, sleep regulation, etc. MgCl is relatively cheap, too, which is a plus.My doctor recommends Magnesium Taurate as the most "bang for your buck" magnesium supplement, but says you can only take two 125 mg capsules per day of it (your body won't absorb more, and it will give you loose stools if you go too high.)
http://www.thewayup.com/products/0186.htm
Since my intracellular magnesium levels were so low and I couldn't get intravenous infusions every day and hold a job :-) she agreed I would take several different kinds, and get the intravenous "boosts" when I am ill or under extreme stress only. I take a daily cocktail of Magnesium Taurate( 2-125 mg), Magnesium Maleate (2-825 mg, yielding 200 mg magnesium), Krebs Cycle Chelates (a multi-mineral, 5-yielding 500 mg magnesium), get another 900 mg of magnesium oxide and magnesium chelates from my multivitamin/mineral complex. I know, it sounds like a LOT, but with my health situation, it's what I need. My the doctor is fully aware and in agreement (she recommended most of it, in fact. I was only taking the multivitamin/mineral, none of the other stuff.) I would NOT recommend taking such a high dose without medical supervision.
(end bozeman comment 3)> > > I suggest a more cautious position than you, however. I agree that nutritional issues may be prominent in many mental disorders, but I think there are other unrelated factors. I think everyone should try different suppportive nutrients, to see if improvements are possible via methods which are entirely within the subjects' control. That's what I most like about nutritional strategies, they are totally within my control. I do better when I monitor and supplement my intake of nutrients than when I do not trouble myself to do so (and trouble myself is an apt phrase here). I am what I eat.
>(bozeman comment 4)
Again, I completely agree. While I tremendously disdain taking so many meds and supplements every day, I cannot argue that I am much improved over when I did not. And every time I try to discontinue one (though the individual components are mostly low-priced, the aggregate cost is staggering) I have a decrease in well-being each time. For now, I need it all, apparently. Until whatever situation made me so deficient is rectified, I need mega-doses to supply both daily needs and to replenish my body's resources.
(end bozeman comment 4)> > Yes, it is a lot of trouble to figure out supplements and nutrition, especially given the conflicting advice from the various factions, but that's what I like about it too, having control.
>
> Supplements are cheap, generally safe, and in my control. I like those characteristics.
>(bozeman comment 5)
YES!!! Absolutely. There's nothing regaining some feeling of control to help lift your mood. :-)
(end bozeman comment 6)> > What I've discovered now that I am no longer depressed (wow, I like saying that! :)) is that depression creates its own logic -- "I'm depressed because of .....", but once you're out of the state of depression -- Poof!-- all that "stuff" is just gone.
>
> It is only because I have stabilized my mood with supplements that I was able to determine that I have other comorbid conditions. All we knew before was that I was a very complicated treatment-resistant depressive. Now I'm a depressive with comorbid PTSD, chronic fatigue/fibro something or other (I find that diagnostic definitions are limitations. I don't fit neatly into the diagnostic categories, and that limits their utility to *me*.), and irritable bowel syndrome. And there are nutritional strategies for those other things, too.
>
> >You probably have read Kramer's book, "Listening to Prozac".
>
> Nope, sorry.
>
> >What I remember best from that book was his observation that people's personalities appeared to be changed by Prozac, so what did it mean after all to speak of "personality"? I feel like my personality is changed now too, but BACK to when I was much younger, so this feels like more "me" than ever.(bozeman comment 7)
Kramer's book was a real eye-opener for me. It makes me sad that so many people jump to conclusions about what he was trying to say without actually reading the book. After reading it, and re-reading several sections, I took his point to be that though their improvements on Prozac were quite remarkable, the effect it had on his patients actually made him quite uneasy, as for the first time it opened the door to the possibility of debate/miscategorization/misuse/pressure of whether personality could be biologically determined, and therefore phamacologically altered, at will. He thought this could create enough confusion to eventually take away (or at least muddy the water) over an individual's right to be who they were, without feeling pressured to conform to a "socially preferable but induced by medication" personality. Not that such a personality was desirable or should be pursued, but that for the first time, it appeared to be possible to create it biochemically. And, his book was published before any long-term information existed on SSRI's, the term "poop-out" had not yet been coined nor the phenomenon really observed, and at that time, there appeared to be no "contraindication" to long-term SSRI use. That possibility deeply disturbed him, as it made "cosmetic psychopharmacology" potentially feasible, which was an idea that distressed him on medical, social, and spiritual levels. Long-term (and inadvertent) adaptive changes in neurotransmitter levels, and the poop-out phenomenon, have hopefully made his fears moot.However, at this date, I don't think many people will argue that mood and personality can be pharmacologically influenced (which includes nutrition, in my opinion.)
(end bozeman comment 7)>
> I think we are all environmentally reactive, and strictly speaking, I consider medications to be environmental influences.
>
> > I read Eby's site before my last psychiatrist appointment and specifically asked him about magnesium, and received a negative response. Good thing I ignored him! ;)
>
> Let him come to ask just what has contributed so much for your well-being. I bet he remains a skeptic, nonetheless.
>
> Lar
JLx --
LOL . . . indeed, I agree with Larry. It never ceases to amaze me the ability of people (all of us, not just doctors or patients) to flatly ignore evidence in front of us that we just don't want to hear. Good luck, JLx, and I'm glad you're feeling so good. Don't let your doctor's lack of enthusiasm keep you from utilizing a relatively cheap, safe, effective therapy that's working so well for you. :-)Larry --
I'm so glad you're here to provide scientific explanation (in English instead of Latin :-) that's understandable to most everyone. I usually don't even toss my two cents worth in as you do such a good job of answering people's questions. Thanks for taking the time to explain things so well. I always learn something reading your posts.Scott --
I know I promised to answer your questions awhile back, but I got sick, the message archived, then I forgot. Sorry. Hope this helps.Peace and good health to you all.
bozeman
poster:bozeman
thread:214008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030329/msgs/214124.html