Posted by Squiggles on October 26, 2002, at 10:32:44
In reply to Re: RATIONAL USE OF BENZODIAZAPINES (5.), posted by hiba on October 26, 2002, at 1:15:00
> Oh Dear Squiggles,
>
> You are going far and far.
>--I would like to pause for a while here,
and consider the criteria and methodology
that are necessary in assessing the detrimental
effects of benzos.
>
> "In unmonitored, erratic dosing of benzos,
> symptoms of psychosis may be indistinguishable
> from the real thing (i.e. endogenous or non-benzo
> related)"
>
> This is a wonderful finding. Do you have any scientific evidence to back this ? Benzos, if used for a long time in very high doses and stopped abruptly can cause a syndrome that resembles to psychosis.(But unlike stimulant psychosis which is irreversible, this can be reveresed and treated successfully). Is this what
> you mean ? Some benzos in fact used to treat psycosis. Chlordiazepoxide, lorazepam and clonazepam for instance.
> And if you have an access to ABPI DATA COMPENDIUM, please see the data sheets of antidepressants (especially tricyclics). You can see the warning: Tricyclics may cause activation of psychosis. Can you show me any such warning in benzodiazepine data sheets ?
>--It seems clear that my personal testimony, no matter
how similar it may be with the evidence presented at the
Benzo group, is insufficient to convince you of the
typical effects of adverse, withdrawal, and protracted
aspects of this class of drugs. I do feel a bit like
a sock puppet in trying to defend this side. And before
i continue with the presentation of references, articles,
and statistics, i have to now that *some* sort of
evidence will satisfy you, and i am not just blowing
in the wind.
> You are determined to rate benzo withdrawal as heroin withdrawal. I have witnessed many heroin and benzo withdrawals. And in the light of my experience, I can only laugh at your attempt. You are obsessed with the anti-benzo group.Now now, no need to get personal.
>
> About side effects: If you have experienced more side effects on benzos, you have a right to claim. But generally benzos are much much safer than hard antidepressants and all other medications used in psychiatric practice.. Pharmaceutical manuals (which you always refer in
> your messages) will definitely clarify this.--I am not trying to defend my rights here. The effects
of prolonged benzo use, and the addictive nature of these
drugs is something that has been experienced by people
who have come together to discuss their common complaint from
many countries and many walks of life.
>
> ABOUT WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS: Since you are not a Doc or clinical professional, I think it is better to give the reference along with your statements. I am not a Doc or professional . So I don't speak on my own. Let me quote American Psychiatric Association's Task force report on benzos:
> "All psychiatric drugs, if taken for more than a brief period, may produce discontinuance signs and symptoms when abruptly stopped, and these symptoms may be an intensified recurrence of the original signs and symptoms, or may be the mirror image (for example, the opposite of the normal therapeutic effect of the drug). Sudden discontinuance of antidepressant drugs, for example, may produce a severe depression, rebound cholinergic symptoms, or agitation, or it may precipitate a manic state. Withdrawal dyskinesia is commonly seen after neuroleptics are abruptly stopped, and a recrudescence of manic symptoms has been reported after abrupt lithium termination." (Page 15)--This is true. But it is not in contradiction to discontinuation syndromes
with benzos as well. I have quoted the Merck before here and
The American Family Physician, and Goodman and Gillman's
Pharmaceutical Therapeutics on the addictive nature and need
for caution in benzo withdrawal, which also mention the
risk of seizure upon sudden discontinuation.
>
> Then why should you blame benzos solely for dependence???--I don't;
>
> "What is missing the "protracted withdrawal"
> syndrome."
>
> Oh! what is this? protracted withdrawal syndrome? Any scientific evidence to clarify this PROTRACTED? Plese don't quote those benzophobics or Dr. Ashton. There are enough pharmaceutical manuals which you would like to refer. Any hint from them? I can name some, if you need.
> 1. MARTINDALE:THE COMPLETE DRUG REFERENCE.
>
> 2. PHYSICIAN'S DESK REFERENCE.
>
> 3. PHARMACOLOGICAL BASIS OF THERAPEUTICS.
>
> 4. ABPI DATA COMPENDIUM.
>
>
> ".... my guess is that changes
> take place in either the structure or the chemistry
> of the brain, after the drug is used for a long time.
> Stopping the drug, leaves the brain in a state that has
> lost its initial equilibrium and either takes a very long
> time (may GABBA receptors or dendrites have to regrow
> or something) or equilibrium is never ever reached again."
>
> You have your right to guess. But please don't impose them on patients in this board. Besides "GUESS" shouldn't always necessarily be right. The term GABBA for instance. It is not GABBA but GABA.(GAMMA-AMINOBUTYRIC ACID)Please check in your message.
>
> I have personal experience of using benzodiazepines. I have used klonopin upto two years and gradually tapered WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS AT ALL. Now I am afraid of those "PROTRACTED WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS"!!! I hope there will be a benzophobic to predict when I should begin to experience "PROTRACTED WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS".
>
> If a benzo has made you sick, it is not fair to make all benzo users sick. There are millions who use benzos very effectively and benefit from them. Tell us your experience. It is welcome. But insisting on all patients should experience what you experienced is not fun at all.
>
> About Ashton protocols: Her protocol is not working for everyone. The substitution of valium for xanax is not that effective. I have a friend who followed Ashton protocol to withdraw xanax and in his case it was an utter failure. Still I don't generalize this failure. But theoretically xanax is better substituted with klonopin. This is true in practice also.
>
> Dr. Ashton is a single soul. I don't usually rely on such sole findings. Rather I will go for the combined work of scientists where there is only a very small possibility of error.. The references I named above are not the works a single scientist. They are compiled by some groups of reputed scientists.
> Good luck Squiggles, Take care--The virtue of studies and observations taken by
doctors like Dr. Heather Ashton, are the advantage
of long-term studies of addicts of benzodiazepines.
Her clinic in London ran withdrawal cases for more
than 12 years. I think that should be regarded as
an opportunity (solitary as it may be) rather than
an abberation in benzo studies.Once again, what kind of evidence would you like?
Statistical evidence can only be gathered by
testimonials of people who have taken these drugs
for a long time. Would you rather rely on the
behaviour of rats over a period of 3 months, under
the supervision of Hoffman LaRoche or Eli Lilly's
white-coats?I confess, that I have considered the possibility
that in my case, perhaps the reason I had such
severe withdrawal, may have been something else
like White Nile Virus, or cancer, or brain tumour;
when I suspected the XANAX to be causing my panic
attacks, the doctors i saw first thought Celexa might
do the trick; but I after reading the Merck, and
studying the books on the net, I was pretty sure
that the cause was inter-dose withdrawal of long-term
addiction to Xanax. Infact, one pharmacist actually
suggested to my dr. that i had been taking Xanax too long;
So, I demanded to get off Xanax. And hard as it was
to get off, once I did, I have not had a panic attack since.
Doh!Regarding the Rivotril, as i said, Ashton and other
addiction centres, even this WHO manual recommend
another benzo or another drug to be gotten off.
I did it with time. It did not work. Possibly,
it may have, had I been gotten off with another
drug. The question with Rivotril is whether i
need it at all or not; the fact that my doctor
let me try to get off, is evidence to me that
there was some doubt about its necessity in the
first place.Squiggles
> HIBA
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poster:Squiggles
thread:124171
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021025/msgs/125298.html