[Me] ...If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any minister..." /> [Me] ...If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any minister..." />

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Re: Depression, Evolution (CC)

Posted by CC on November 14, 1999, at 19:06:37

In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution (CC), posted by Bob on November 14, 1999, at 14:21:15

> > [Me] ...If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any minister, I cannot accept that external source as corroboration for what I believe.
> > [CC] by analogy, suppose I had a patient with OCD who seemed to respond well to luvox. I then consulted the literature to see if other people reported similiar findings. And later, I attended a Psychiatrist convention and discussed my observations with other psychiatrists and they reported similiar results. Would my belief in luvox's effectiveness be reinforced?
>
> (1) The analogy doesn't apply. Scientific rules of being and knowing are different from those of faith. You're comparing apples and oranges. All the same, all of those anecdotal supports for luvox may reinforce my belief in luvox's effectiveness after all, but I'd hardly be basing my "trust" in luvox through a scientific process of coming to know.
>
> > [Me]... the traditional teachings still have validity because the faith of contemporary individuals who look inside provide the evidence. Not so much that we invent god, but rather that god is continually renewed and reinvented through us.
> > [CC] Here your working assumption seems to be that the Scriptures have no merit of their own...
>
> (2) Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
>
> >[CC] and that people just read into them what they want to see.
>
> (3) What stops anyone from doing so anyway? Even if god wrote exactly what god meant in any or all of the foundational religious tomes out there, using each author as god's own instrument, there remains the problem of interpretation by those of us not so blessed as to have god reading back inside of us what god wrote in the first place. On the other hand, there are those who believe that god does exist in each of us and it is through aspiration, through the listening to and realization of that voice that faith is gained and scriptures become meaningful.
>
> > [CC]And then there is prophesy, which although it isn't iron clad science, is pretty compelling evidence of God or precognition
>
> (4) Prophesy is not science of any kind. On the other hand, our complete lack of understanding of the nature of time, particularly its dimensionality, does not rule out a scientific explanation for what gets described as prophecy. The phenomena categorized as prophecy may one day have an empirical explanation, and prophecy (as something that is akin to scientific understanding) may takes its place with spontaneous generation, the transmutation of elements, the caloric theory of heat, and the flat earth theory.
>
> > [Me] Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the literal interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever.
> > [CC] ... the origin of the universe is still a pretty strong argument for the existance of God.
>
> (5) So why belittle the argument by trying to affix dates to events? To seek evidence of god in evidence of the Great Flood or the Ark of the Covenant is to admit your faith is insufficient; particularly if you need to turn to worldly explanations to support it. If you need material evidence of the hand of god in the material world, then meditate on a spider's web or the face of a newborn for a while, but don't waste anyone's time trying to prove the spiritual message in any book of god through such "historical" proofs as finding the wreck of Noah's Ark.
>
> > [CC] First, you seem to be assuming that "God" created the problems we are stuck with...
>
> (6) In coming to know the material world, we often find that the answer to one questions raises even more questions. So yes, in creating this world, god created both the potential for its problems and its wonders. (That is, if you believe that god created the universe in the first place.) But I never said anything about being stuck with these problems. My faith has no place for such pessimism.
>
> > [CC] ... and given the enormity of the problems, do you think man can figure his way out of them, without God's help?
>
> (7) God created us in god's own image, or so we are told. Shouldn't that be enough? I think god's provided all the help that is both necessary and sufficient.
>
> > [CC]If you do I don't share your optimism, and would it be too much to ask if I could store some spent plutonium in you garage?
>
> (8) Would you base an argument on the qualities of faith on reduction to the absurd? If you believed in god's message and had the faith to back it up, would you ever **seriously** even consider asking that question?
>
> > [CC]... we don't know whats going to happen next, or could we look it up in the literature?? If you are curious how things end, you could look at the last few chapters of Revelations.
>
> (9) That much of the bible I have read. It's pretty good propaganda for keeping the masses in their place underneath the clergy. As for the apocalyptic visions of various organized religions, I think they say more about humanity's infidelity in seeing god's vision for us than about that vision itself. An abortion of this universe reflects just as poorly on god's imperfections as it does on god's creation. I'd prefer to believe that god has more faith in us than we place either in god or in ourselves.
>
> (so, I wonder that this conversation has to do with depression and evolution ... ;^)
>
> Bob

In response,

"> [Me] ...If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book
or any minister, I cannot accept that external source as corroboration for what I
believe.
> [CC] by analogy, suppose I had a patient with OCD who seemed to respond well
to luvox. I then consulted the literature to see if other people reported similiar findings.
And later, I attended a Psychiatrist convention and discussed my observations with
other psychiatrists and they reported similiar results. Would my belief in luvox's
effectiveness be reinforced?

(1) The analogy doesn't apply. Scientific rules of being and knowing are different from
those of faith. You're comparing apples and oranges. All the same, all of those
anecdotal supports for luvox may reinforce my belief in luvox's effectiveness after all,
but I'd hardly be basing my "trust" in luvox through a scientific process of coming to
know."

faith does not have to be in any "mystical" thing, you could have faith in science or humanism, that is you believe in them or their validity or have confidence in them. The analogy is about reinforced belief. Scientific rules or not, I am talking about reinforcement of experiencial observations. If you want to deify science thats your perogative.

"> [Me]... the traditional teachings still have validity because the faith of contemporary
individuals who look inside provide the evidence. Not so much that we invent god, but
rather that god is continually renewed and reinvented through us.
> [CC] Here your working assumption seems to be that the Scriptures have no merit
of their own...

(2) Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying."

Well you are free to have your own opinion.

">[CC] and that people just read into them what they want to see.

(3) What stops anyone from doing so anyway? Even if god wrote exactly what god
meant in any or all of the foundational religious tomes out there, using each author as
god's own instrument, there remains the problem of interpretation by those of us not so
blessed as to have god reading back inside of us what god wrote in the first place. On
the other hand, there are those who believe that god does exist in each of us and it is
through aspiration, through the listening to and realization of that voice that faith is
gained and scriptures become meaningful."

You can read anything into anything. This has nothing to do with the validity of the text. The idea that God exists in or influences everybody is not, as far as I know, inconsistent with Christian belief.

"> [CC]And then there is prophesy, which although it isn't iron clad science, is pretty
compelling evidence of God or precognition

(4) Prophesy is not science of any kind. On the other hand, our complete lack of
understanding of the nature of time, particularly its dimensionality, does not rule out a
scientific explanation for what gets described as prophecy. The phenomena
categorized as prophecy may one day have an empirical explanation, and prophecy
(as something that is akin to scientific understanding) may takes its place with
spontaneous generation, the transmutation of elements, the caloric theory of heat, and
the flat earth theory."

Well maybe it seems farfetched, but no more so than a time machine. And the idea that it is antiquated nonsense is your opinion. I think you have way too much "faith" in science.

"> [Me] Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the
literal interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever.
> [CC] ... the origin of the universe is still a pretty strong argument for the existance of
God.

(5) So why belittle the argument by trying to affix dates to events? To seek evidence of
god in evidence of the Great Flood or the Ark of the Covenant is to admit your faith is
insufficient; particularly if you need to turn to worldly explanations to support it. If you
need material evidence of the hand of god in the material world, then meditate on a
spider's web or the face of a newborn for a while, but don't waste anyone's time trying
to prove the spiritual message in any book of god through such "historical" proofs as
finding the wreck of Noah's Ark.> [Me] Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the
literal interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever.
> [CC] ... the origin of the universe is still a pretty strong argument for the existance of
God.

(5) So why belittle the argument by trying to affix dates to events? To seek evidence of
god in evidence of the Great Flood or the Ark of the Covenant is to admit your faith is
insufficient; particularly if you need to turn to worldly explanations to support it. If you
need material evidence of the hand of god in the material world, then meditate on a
spider's web or the face of a newborn for a while, but don't waste anyone's time trying
to prove the spiritual message in any book of god through such "historical" proofs as
finding the wreck of Noah's Ark."

Well faith tends to need periodic reinforcement. And maybe they thought finding historical evidence to back up the Scripture might help facilitate the conversion of the secular world.

"> [CC] First, you seem to be assuming that "God" created the problems we are stuck
with...

(6) In coming to know the material world, we often find that the answer to one
questions raises even more questions. So yes, in creating this world, god created both
the potential for its problems and its wonders. (That is, if you believe that god created
the universe in the first place.) But I never said anything about being stuck with these
problems. My faith has no place for such pessimism.

> [CC] ... and given the enormity of the problems, do you think man can figure his
way out of them, without God's help?

(7) God created us in god's own image, or so we are told. Shouldn't that be enough? I
think god's provided all the help that is both necessary and sufficient."

Well it is my opinion that we are where we are because of a lot of mostly bad choices made by exercising our free will. God tried to give us guidance that we to often ignored. What do you have "faith" in that allows no room for pessimism? And what exactly is meant by "we are created in God's image" isn't clearly defined.

"> [CC]If you do I don't share your optimism, and would it be too much to ask if I
could store some spent plutonium in you garage?

(8) Would you base an argument on the qualities of faith on reduction to the absurd? If
you believed in god's message and had the faith to back it up, would you ever
**seriously** even consider asking that question?"

This was a joke alluding to one very serious problem mankind is faced with, what to do with all the nuclear waste. As far as I know they haven't figure out what to do with the bulk of it. And you have the greenhouse effect, the depletion of the ozone layer, the possibility of nuclear war, and the degeneration of the media. These problems seem to me pretty unmanageable, and if we could get help from God, we would be fools not to take it.

"> [CC]... we don't know whats going to happen next, or could we look it up in the
literature?? If you are curious how things end, you could look at the last few chapters
of Revelations.

(9) That much of the bible I have read. It's pretty good propaganda for keeping the
masses in their place underneath the clergy. As for the apocalyptic visions of various
organized religions, I think they say more about humanity's infidelity in seeing god's
vision for us than about that vision itself. An abortion of this universe reflects just as
poorly on god's imperfections as it does on god's creation. I'd prefer to believe that
god has more faith in us than we place either in god or in ourselves.

(so, I wonder that this conversation has to do with depression and evolution ... ;^)"

Shame on the clergy for discouraging evil, immorality, socially destructive or irresponsible behavior. The "Church" can augment psychotherapy or sometimes replace psychological treatment. I personally would feel more comfortable confiding in a Priest than a Psychiatrist, its a matter of trust. I am not however advocating an abandonment of psychological medical treatment. And religion is the main opposition of evolution, isn't it?


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URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991108/msgs/15208.html