Posted by Bob on November 14, 1999, at 14:21:15
In reply to Re: Depression, Evolution , posted by CC on November 14, 1999, at 2:27:30
> [Me] ...If what I hold true by faith has any correlation to what is taught by any book or any minister, I cannot accept that external source as corroboration for what I believe.
> [CC] by analogy, suppose I had a patient with OCD who seemed to respond well to luvox. I then consulted the literature to see if other people reported similiar findings. And later, I attended a Psychiatrist convention and discussed my observations with other psychiatrists and they reported similiar results. Would my belief in luvox's effectiveness be reinforced?(1) The analogy doesn't apply. Scientific rules of being and knowing are different from those of faith. You're comparing apples and oranges. All the same, all of those anecdotal supports for luvox may reinforce my belief in luvox's effectiveness after all, but I'd hardly be basing my "trust" in luvox through a scientific process of coming to know.
> [Me]... the traditional teachings still have validity because the faith of contemporary individuals who look inside provide the evidence. Not so much that we invent god, but rather that god is continually renewed and reinvented through us.
> [CC] Here your working assumption seems to be that the Scriptures have no merit of their own...(2) Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
>[CC] and that people just read into them what they want to see.
(3) What stops anyone from doing so anyway? Even if god wrote exactly what god meant in any or all of the foundational religious tomes out there, using each author as god's own instrument, there remains the problem of interpretation by those of us not so blessed as to have god reading back inside of us what god wrote in the first place. On the other hand, there are those who believe that god does exist in each of us and it is through aspiration, through the listening to and realization of that voice that faith is gained and scriptures become meaningful.
> [CC]And then there is prophesy, which although it isn't iron clad science, is pretty compelling evidence of God or precognition
(4) Prophesy is not science of any kind. On the other hand, our complete lack of understanding of the nature of time, particularly its dimensionality, does not rule out a scientific explanation for what gets described as prophecy. The phenomena categorized as prophecy may one day have an empirical explanation, and prophecy (as something that is akin to scientific understanding) may takes its place with spontaneous generation, the transmutation of elements, the caloric theory of heat, and the flat earth theory.
> [Me] Along the same lines, I'd say those who need to demonstrate proofs of the literal interpretations of religious texts have no faith whatsoever.
> [CC] ... the origin of the universe is still a pretty strong argument for the existance of God.(5) So why belittle the argument by trying to affix dates to events? To seek evidence of god in evidence of the Great Flood or the Ark of the Covenant is to admit your faith is insufficient; particularly if you need to turn to worldly explanations to support it. If you need material evidence of the hand of god in the material world, then meditate on a spider's web or the face of a newborn for a while, but don't waste anyone's time trying to prove the spiritual message in any book of god through such "historical" proofs as finding the wreck of Noah's Ark.
> [CC] First, you seem to be assuming that "God" created the problems we are stuck with...
(6) In coming to know the material world, we often find that the answer to one questions raises even more questions. So yes, in creating this world, god created both the potential for its problems and its wonders. (That is, if you believe that god created the universe in the first place.) But I never said anything about being stuck with these problems. My faith has no place for such pessimism.
> [CC] ... and given the enormity of the problems, do you think man can figure his way out of them, without God's help?
(7) God created us in god's own image, or so we are told. Shouldn't that be enough? I think god's provided all the help that is both necessary and sufficient.
> [CC]If you do I don't share your optimism, and would it be too much to ask if I could store some spent plutonium in you garage?
(8) Would you base an argument on the qualities of faith on reduction to the absurd? If you believed in god's message and had the faith to back it up, would you ever **seriously** even consider asking that question?
> [CC]... we don't know whats going to happen next, or could we look it up in the literature?? If you are curious how things end, you could look at the last few chapters of Revelations.
(9) That much of the bible I have read. It's pretty good propaganda for keeping the masses in their place underneath the clergy. As for the apocalyptic visions of various organized religions, I think they say more about humanity's infidelity in seeing god's vision for us than about that vision itself. An abortion of this universe reflects just as poorly on god's imperfections as it does on god's creation. I'd prefer to believe that god has more faith in us than we place either in god or in ourselves.
(so, I wonder that this conversation has to do with depression and evolution ... ;^)
Bob
poster:Bob
thread:14368
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/19991108/msgs/15196.html