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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 0:53:18
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 21, 2011, at 21:54:33
The ridiculous ideas or feelings I meant is the internalised form of the attack on innocent spontaneous affection.
In the 50s Australia was positively neanderthal when it came to anything resembling homosexuality. And the very term homosexuality fills me with annoyance. I often wish humans would shut the f*ck up. Anyway kids (adolescents, can the paedophile question be far behind me here?) play, sometimes it leads to sex, which is cool by me. In fact, in a boarding school, before puberty around age 11, there was a kid of non-sexual sex (if I can so term it) which was a reasonable substitute for the absence of any parental affection coupled with the kind of awful treatment from the masters, a delightful term I will retain to give you the correct feel. This happy time ended at puberty when sex drive kicked in and the power of the (social) state (I almost feel) was marshaled to seek out and destroy some for the edification of others. You always need a few victims to keep people on their toes.
So the ideas are ridiculous because they are, but also because they are unkind, and because they are so ignorant and so middle class 50s respectable. Just ghastly.
So much more acceptable to cane a whole room full of boys in their pyjamas after lights out for talking. That is nice and clean. But God forbid any boy should love another. That is why I was quoting Jesus.
No there are no secrets. Well, not from me and my wife, but we tried being real to each other ages ago. But I don't want to talk about what we did in front of his new partner.
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 0:55:21
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by Phillipa on July 21, 2011, at 21:54:41
> Oh how was boarding school other than the affair?
I hated it then and forever. Six years of it. And it wasn't even really bad, not compared to some others.
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 0:57:20
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 21, 2011, at 21:56:15
Life is wasted because people will not respect each others feelings, but instead prefer their own.
Consider Fred Phelps from Florida.
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 13:27:50
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 0:57:20
You remember that thread about Marsha Lineham on Psych where she says she as in the chapel and a nun goes past and asks if there is anything she can do and Marsha says no, and the nun laughs, and then she is staring at the crucifix and I guess starts hallucinating, and then it comes to her that she loves herself, and she realises she has never thought of herself as myself but only as you?
That's how it is with me and love. It's why I hate social occasions, with all that clever cold reserved talk.
I need someone to love. I like myself most when I am loving another.
That's when I feel about myself, 'you too are precious'.
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2011, at 14:55:54
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 13:27:50
> I need someone to love. I like myself most when I am loving another.
>
> That's when I feel about myself, 'you too are precious'.
>I like that. I think everyone needs to have that feeling, and parents and faiths don't always do their jobs in steeping youngsters with that bone deep knowledge.
Did you say your wife understands, and that there is no reason for secrecy with her? Love is a funny thing. It fills us and flows over. I suppose we all make choices as to what to do with the feelings. But love can be such a powerful source of good. As well as a source of pain. Or perhaps it's not the loving that causes pain, but the wanting that so often comes with it. Hmmmm... that sounds vaguely Buddhist.
I hope this brings you all the good.
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 15:22:44
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2011, at 14:55:54
>Did you say your wife understands, and that there is no reason for secrecy with her?
No no, we're such good friends. We are so close. I have been with her almost 40 years.
After I had the guilts with that boy I became very observant and went to communion twice a week and every service I could. I even went to Billy Graham.
It's interesting how emotions are preserved. Forty-five years and it is as clear as day. I have to find a way to say to him, in the right way and in the right setting, that he was an angel to me. And I will. I believe in fidelity, in my own way.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2011, at 17:42:15
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 0:55:21
In high school I went briefly to an all girls catholic school. By then my anxiety and depression were in full swing. I saw no need to study. Life seemed pointless after all. My grades were awful and likely reflected badly on what they might've been hoping would be some lovely type of eugenics program.
Aside from that, I was no bother, just quiet and hopelessly clueless, awkward and sick.
Just for good measure the head nun told me that she felt sorry for my mother. Never have forgotten that. Great educators shaping minds, warped agendas, in the name of some guiding religious ethics. Go figure.
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 17:57:07
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2011, at 17:42:15
My son and I used to laugh ourselves silly watching Daria, an animation about a depressed intelligent girl at school.
Posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 18:24:39
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2011, at 17:42:15
Speaking about eugenics, after my mother died we were going through the stuff and found these family planning booklets from *before* WWII.
It was straight eugenics. But not of the German sort.
Impossible to imagine the same tone used after the war.
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2011, at 19:56:22
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sleepygirl2, posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 17:57:07
My family all loves Daria. One of my favorite quotes is from Daria.
"Don't worry, I don't have low self-esteem. It's a mistake. I have low esteem for everyone else."
I never thought of her as particularly depressed though. Just smart and annoyed at being stuck where she is. I figured she'd be fine in a nice liberal arts college.
Daria is one of my go-to shows when I need cheering.
The show did a great job with character development (with the major characters).
Posted by Dinah on July 22, 2011, at 20:02:15
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2011, at 17:42:15
Religious people often do a great job at making faith look unpleasant. I always figured that God wouldn't be pleased.
A nun at my school once made a girl cry during a school assembly by asking sing Christmas carols more quietly. I'm still furious with her, and with myself for not walking up to the nun and reminding her that God wanted us to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord". Not "make an on-key noise unto the Lord." I can't see how anyone could live with themselves after making someone go from happily singing Christmas carols to crying. It was an assembly, for heavens sake, not a concert.
Sigh.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2011, at 20:40:52
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by sigismund on July 22, 2011, at 0:53:18
Should be an interesting conversation then.
Cruelty likes to mascarade as other things sometimes.
Glad you found some comfort in those times.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 22, 2011, at 22:07:09
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sleepygirl2, posted by Dinah on July 22, 2011, at 20:02:15
Poor kid :-(
Hope she doesn't let it stop her.
Posted by floatingbridge on July 23, 2011, at 22:48:44
In reply to Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by sleepygirl2 on July 20, 2011, at 19:59:04
This conversation makes my head spin. Not in the Linda Blair way. I think I'll need to read it ten times with at least 20mins between each reading.
One of my best friends was relocated, hospitalized, drugged because she loved another young woman at 14 years old. Sometimes I just look at her mom like wtf. But she's a *nice lady*.
sigi, you know if I had a time machine, I would go back and kick the butts of everyone who ever hit a child. Striking a child is my working definition of insanity, short hand and down and dirty.
All the f*ck*ng nuns that slapped me. I don't know what people think.
Sleepy girl, am I helping? I suspect not.... I can't have an interesting conversation right now. My husband says I am cursing a bit. So I have to watch that :-/
Did you click on the link a few posts up? Or are distracting movies not working at the moment.
How about my son running into the room in boxers and a red cape shouting, carnivores to the herbivore rescue!
Or a few days ago when out of the blue he said, you know something mom? You know why there is time? Because we need it.
I don't know what the h-e-double-toothpicks he was referring to, but my mind came to a complete halt. That, now that, the complete halt, was very good.
Sometimes I look at him like who the heck are you? Where did you come from? And when I am not worried about breaking him, he fills me with wonder.
You know, if I lived somewhere else in time, or some people had their ways, well, the mentally unfit were considered for eugenics. That is the stupidest misconception of science that even exisited.
A therapist who I will see when I can leave the house on my own once said to me that it was unbearable to despise oneself because our true nature is really to love ourselves, and right there was a major dissonance.
Everyone is precious. They were born. They were children. They maybe forgot....
Posted by floatingbridge on July 23, 2011, at 22:58:34
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by floatingbridge on July 23, 2011, at 22:48:44
Inducing guilt in a child. I forgot to mention that. A sense of being terribly wrong.
I saw a student film of Jane Campion about either a brother and sister or two cousins of equal age. It was erotic as only children know how to be with their whole free beings before they have any idea of right and wrong shouted or shamed into them.
Hey. I like rules. I like non harming sexual behavior. But that's a pretty deep topic and way over my head.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 23, 2011, at 23:10:16
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by floatingbridge on July 23, 2011, at 22:48:44
> Sleepy girl, am I helping? I suspect not.... I can't have an interesting conversation right now. My husband says I am cursing a bit. So I have to watch that :-/
I can handle profanity fb. I use a fair amount of it myself.
and yes, you are helping :-)
but don't worry about me, you take care of yourself. I muddle through somehow, always seem to. I find things to hold onto.
> Did you click on the link a few posts up? Or are distracting movies not working at the moment.I will be using them again, soon. I've got some annoying life responsibilities I can't avoid at the moment.
> How about my son running into the room in boxers and a red cape shouting, carnivores to the herbivore rescue!
He sounds like a great kid. :-)
must be in the dna
Posted by hyperfocus on July 24, 2011, at 16:32:34
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 21, 2011, at 21:56:15
What is about kids that brings out the most sadistic and the cruelest in Catholic school priests, brothers, nuns et. al? Are they acting out some repressed hatred at their own infantalization by the Church?
My mother went to a Catholic school and to this day she talks with the utmost disgust and regret about what those women put her through.
Posted by floatingbridge on July 24, 2011, at 17:13:50
In reply to Re: Catholic school, posted by hyperfocus on July 24, 2011, at 16:32:34
HP, I think it's the dysfunctional system that governs the catholic church that brings out the cruelty of the adults in it. Good, thoughtful practioners of the faith can be very kind. Some even have had to say hast a la vista to the Pope. Remember that the church, historically was responsible for scientific repression, genocide and torture. Thomas Moore, an engineer or at least henchman of the Inquistion who oversaw the torture of at least a thousand people was made the patron saint of politicians. I kid you not. This hagification ( a word?) happened in the late 20th century.
Kids seem to just be so elemental, so raw and vulnerable. They actually do not have equal rights by law, either. They certainly do not have equal rights in every day conversation.
It sucks. Sorry about your mum :-/
> What is about kids that brings out the most sadistic and the cruelest in Catholic school priests, brothers, nuns et. al? Are they acting out some repressed hatred at their own infantalization by the Church?
>
> My mother went to a Catholic school and to this day she talks with the utmost disgust and regret about what those women put her through.
Posted by Dinah on July 24, 2011, at 17:23:24
In reply to Re: Catholic school, posted by hyperfocus on July 24, 2011, at 16:32:34
The fellow students put me through far far worse than those in authorities. It still affects me.
I never had problems with my peers before or after Catholic school. If they didn't like me, they at least left me alone.
Posted by hyperfocus on July 24, 2011, at 19:06:40
In reply to Re: Catholic school, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2011, at 17:23:24
Yes she talks about her fellow students in the same breath. A big part of the regret was that the Sisters never intervened in the sadistic torture and humiliation the other girls put her through.
She once told me a story about somebody had typed a letter which, to give you and idea of the content, ended "signed before jumping into bed..." and signed her name and put it in her desk and either told one of the Sisters about it or caused it to be to be found by them.
She was a minority at her school - she had gotten in because she was bright - but the experiences there changed her. A lot of the personality problems she has now started there. If she had been evaluated in her 20s she would certainly have been classified borderline. It must have broken her heart to hear, literally decades after, that I went through pretty much the same thing.
Whatever happened to "Suffer the little children to come to me"? It's more like throw the lambs to the lions and let the strongest survive. Christianity is about compassion and good works and recognizing the humanity in every person. I don't know why Catholic schools are so far far away from these things.
But we did survive. Inspite of her demons I don't believe her beliefs about right and wrong are changed.
Posted by floatingbridge on July 24, 2011, at 19:44:33
In reply to Re: Catholic school, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2011, at 17:23:24
> The fellow students put me through far far worse than those in authorities. It still affects me.
>
> I never had problems with my peers before or after Catholic school. If they didn't like me, they at least left me alone.
>
>I didn't know, Dinah. I'm sorry. I only went on Saturdays. I remember other students in catechism (sp) catching heat. I tried to stay very quiet to minimize any chance of getting slapped in the face by the sisters.
Public school was were peer problems happened for me.
Posted by floatingbridge on July 24, 2011, at 19:57:47
In reply to Re: Catholic school, posted by hyperfocus on July 24, 2011, at 19:06:40
> Whatever happened to "Suffer the little children to come to me"?
The word 'suffer' confuses some people. They get stuck on it. I don't know how many times I had to visit the stations of the cross and have all that torture explained to me. The people in charge of my religious upbringing were kind of obsessed with agony.>
> But we did survive. Inspite of her demons I don't believe her beliefs about right and wrong are changed.
>The moral compass of some folks remains unshakable. Was it earlier in this thread about everyone being precious? It's remembering that in adversity that I find takes real skill.
Posted by sigismund on July 27, 2011, at 18:44:45
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-), posted by floatingbridge on July 23, 2011, at 22:48:44
The hitting was less bad than the neglect.
There was a boy from Bahrain in year 7. Which meant that he would not see his parents for almost a year. When they left he howled like and animal being branded.
And like Dinah said, the way the kids treated each other was even more threatening than the way the teachers did.
Posted by floatingbridge on July 27, 2011, at 19:53:35
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » floatingbridge, posted by sigismund on July 27, 2011, at 18:44:45
> The hitting was less bad than the neglect.
I can see how that would be. Esp. the predictable caning that occurs for talking past bed time. You used the word 'clean'. I guess I become reactive because I have seen and experienced unpredictable hitting of children out of rage. And because that child transgressed some mysterious adult boundary without any awareness.
I never went to boarding school, so much of it is difficult to
imagine. Not seeing a parent for a year. Being without a parent for a year.After thinking about this thread and all the comments of the contributors, there's something else I want to say. When children/adolescents are left to, and therefore tacitly allowed to, harm, ostracize, practice power over, and otherwise bully their peers, where are the adults? Why is it boys will be boys or any other platitude? Why does our society accept the
default position of Lord of the Flies and let it play out over and over like that's a human being's natural baseline?But these are big questions. And obviously they get played out through the minds and bodies of people. Just the ancient idea of needing a scapegoat. Is that like the debasement and ostracism of the vulnerable for, as you said, the edification of
others (was that your word?).I don't understand the reference to Linehan. That her sense of myself exists as you? Can someone explain that to me?
I guess it's been days since that call sigi. I feel you will find
the heart and mind and therefore the way clear to express yourself to this man. I do hope the best.I also think it is possible to love in an unselfish way. There is no shame in receiving nurturance or whatever during the act
or sensation of love for another being. That's something that can make love, when cleansed of drama, very healing. It goes both ways. There is an idea that love is somehow selfish (reflects the needs of the lover) or conversely, it needs
to be selfless in order to be legitimate. Can both ideas be false?
>
> There was a boy from Bahrain in year 7. Which meant that he would not see his parents for almost a year. When they left he howled like and animal being branded.
>
> And like Dinah said, the way the kids treated each other was even more threatening than the way the teachers did.
Posted by sigismund on August 1, 2011, at 1:54:40
In reply to Re: Dragging... (warning uncheerful post ;-) » sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on July 27, 2011, at 19:53:35
>When children/adolescents are left to, and therefore tacitly allowed to, harm, ostracize, practice power over, and otherwise bully their peers, where are the adults? Why is it boys will be boys or any other platitude? Why does our society accept the default position of Lord of the Flies and let it play out over and over like that's a human being's natural baseline?
It was done to toughen the boys up. This *might* go some way to explaining the misogyny of the day. It was left to the women to do this to their boys, in the same way as women had to supervise the footbinding of Chinese girls because men were much too soft hearted.
Well, the world has changed and ideas of what it is to be a man have changed more than anything, and though I don't like change, this change has been for the better.
>There is an idea that love is somehow selfish (reflects the needs of the lover) or conversely, it needs to be selfless in order to be legitimate. Can both ideas be false?
Some people are most happily themselves when they are pleasing another. Some like congruence, some like the play of wills.
What I did with this boy so long ago is I played with him. We played like little kids and at some point, as in a civilised Swedish movie, it turned into sex. That was light years ahead of what followed later, when I was always worried about what I was supposed to be doing. I didn't even have to think about that....I was following my heart.
This is the end of the thread.
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