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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 0:51:48
This doesn't have to be an alcoholic Christmas...
People drink in excess to 1. forget what they've done, and 2. what those things might say about who they are... Truly-mature adults never intentionally connect those two states of being... So, who are the alcoholics hiding their distorted and defective true natures from???
Yep!!! Themselves!!!
Since no one else is looking at them the way they think people are, they end up hiding from themselves, and missing the happiness that can be Christmas!!!
Alcohol, first of all, is only a bad habit and Second of all, its being complicated by the chemical dependence on the sugar rush from the alcohol... Think back how many past alcoholics you have been around who just happen to have acquired Diabetes along the way....
Forget the excuse that its an incurable addiction (whether true or not), think of all the good they are missing out on while inducing whole body numbness...
Start a new habit: enjoy life, with an undistorted clear view of it, independent of what you GUESS others might think; an emancipated view of the "self" and of the spirit... No more hiding out...
Note: If this seems (painfully) pollyana, consider my last 22 years involved with 12 step programs, and the several years before that I staunchly remained dry-clean&sober without 12 step programs... I am not dellusional about alcohol and alcoholics... I'm just not comfortable with the denial and indecision at all levels that plagues everyone trying to help, along with everyone else who seems to be trying to drink, and rationalise the mess that is their lives...
No matter what I write here, I'm intentionally attacking the denial and indecision that is ubiquitous (ever present)... I am certain today that we can all do so much better without our denial and indecision...
Rod
Posted by BayLeaf on December 5, 2008, at 6:20:37
In reply to Doesn't have to be an alcoholic Xmas, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 0:51:48
Rod - I agree with a lot of what you say, but this part must be ammended, "People drink in excess to 1. forget what they've done, and 2. what those things might say about who they are"
Some people drink to forget what OTHERS have done to us. Drinking is a big bad coping tool used by a lot of people with PTSD. It's emotional anesthesia. I'm NOT advocating it - just stating a fact.
Bay
Posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 11:39:13
In reply to Re: Doesn't have to be an alcoholic Xmas » 64bowtie, posted by BayLeaf on December 5, 2008, at 6:20:37
» BayLeaf » People drink for billions of reasons, whats one or two this way or that???
A person doesn't need a reason to drink, but invariably they conjer one up ("...because the "watchers" are watching me" = "John Bradshaw" 1984 convention speech)...
Coughing up a reason does solve one problem, though... The act sidesteps the responsibility for the continuiung of the badness of the habit...
You demanded I amend my comment and herein I have, but maybe not equal to your demanded sanction, nonetheless, more information than you actually demanded...
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 12:29:33
In reply to Re: Doesn't have to be an alcoholic Xmas » 64bowtie, posted by BayLeaf on December 5, 2008, at 6:20:37
re: emotional anesthesia
Personally, I prefer my "Out Of Body" experiences to alcohol any day... Alcohol is a whole body anesthesia in the same way morhine is... In both cases any emotional "lights out" is purely incidental and depends on many physical jeopardy and emotional jeopardy state of being issues...
Arguably, sleeping is the most emotionally anesthetic for 100% of everyone, if done properly... Remember the wisdom of the phrase, "I'd better sleep on it..." If someone has to get "tanked" in order to sleep, something needs attention in that life drama-trauma...
Let's all intend to have a happy and dry-clean-sober holidays...
Rod
PS: Contrary to popular myth, all drugs and alcohol extiguishes any ability to manage the "Out Of Body" episode... People might find the portal to being "Out Of Body" while under the "influence" of chemicals, and are then emphatic that there is no other way to get there... Some time later they are found dead with a smile on their face... And, that's a shame, since "Out Of Body" can be safely managed without any chemical inducement, and be even more fun to do, with lasting, clear and undistorted memories...
Posted by Phillipa on December 5, 2008, at 12:45:57
In reply to » BayLeaf » OhByTheWay, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 12:29:33
Don't drink anymore but when did it was to loosen up and socialize and never during the day. I'm not sure what you mean by out of body experience? Phillipa
Posted by BayLeaf on December 5, 2008, at 16:41:07
In reply to » BayLeaf » People drink for billions of reasons, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 11:39:13
Sorry about the word "must". Perhaps it rubbed you the wrong way? I didn't mean to "demand" anything. It was poor word choice - I should never post before my morning coffee.
Yes, people drink for many reasons. We totally agree.
Namaste.
Posted by Sigismund on December 5, 2008, at 18:12:25
In reply to » BayLeaf » OhByTheWay, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 12:29:33
Hey Rod
By 'out of the body experiences', do you mean depersonalisation?
When you find yourself preferring 'whole body anaesthesia' to life or your relatives, then there you are.
Posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2008, at 4:15:31
In reply to Doesn't have to be an alcoholic Xmas, posted by 64bowtie on December 5, 2008, at 0:51:48
"People drink in excess to 1. forget what they've done, and 2. what those things might say about who they are... Truly-mature adults never intentionally connect those two states of being... So, who are the alcoholics hiding their distorted and defective true natures from???
Yep!!! Themselves!!!"
I think if it were just that simple, millions of alcoholics would be cured.
I also would disagree that alcoholics have distorted and defective natures.
In fact, the overwhelming majority of addicts have some sort of underlying, undiagnosed mental illness and/or co-morbid abuse history.
In some families, I was shocked to learn, it is more acceptable to drink than to seek mental health care.
As someone who has worked with addiction in chronic pain situations for years, it is apparent to me that the old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get moving" attitude only goes so far. I'm not denying it works for some, but for so many the situation has layers and layers of complexity.
Posted by 64Bowtie on December 10, 2008, at 19:47:31
In reply to Re: Doesn't have to be an alcoholic Xmas, posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2008, at 4:15:31
You shared: >>>I think if it were just that simple, millions of alcoholics would be cured.
I say: <<<In your own words, "layers and layers of complexity" is the answer to why alcoholics always say, "its toooo hard" to find a cure. "There's just toooo many layers". To the excuse maker, this is gospel, this fact. When you get them to dig deeper they admit that that's how they feel. When you catch them in a moment of clarity, they suddenly see that feelings are real but not of the same fabric as logic and fact or gospel. The fact that they had that feeling is real and undisputed. That its substance is logic because they really did feel it is the route of their confusion. Logic and feeling serve parallel purposes to a successful end. For such a success, they must remain separate in function. Mixing them creates distorted and defective results.
>>>I also would disagree that alcoholics have distorted and defective natures.
<<<...distorted and defective TRUE natures, not the natures you see and accept. I am talking about "Image of self" as true nature. Why wouldn't you trust an alcoholic to watch your minor children when you vacation for two weeks in Europe? You've seen their results. You know why. You'd have to spend thousands to get them outta hock after being sold in exchange for "a good time out on the town" they claim they deserved. You say that's not distorted? You say that's not defective?
>>>In fact, the overwhelming majority of addicts have some sort of underlying, undiagnosed mental illness and/or co-morbid abuse history.
<<<Is this in defense of their lack of distorted and defective selves as not being distorted and defective but mentally ill?
>>>In some families, I was shocked to learn, it is more acceptable to drink than to seek mental health care.
<<<My case in point.......
>>>As someone who has worked with addiction in chronic pain situations for years, it is apparent to me that the old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get moving" attitude only goes so far. I'm not denying it works for some, but for so many the situation has layers and layers of complexity.
<<<It is said that it takes an average of five years of dry-clean-sober to actually dry out and get some of that distorted and defective "wireing" hooked up the way it used to be. Even BillW didn't think in the beginning that five years was long enough. I'm not into "Original Sin" theorey, thereby implying I believe in the concept of "cure". AA is almost as unwise as the Salvation Army about this particular issue. AA warns "once alcoholic, alcoholic for life" while the Salvation Army warns "must be abstinent" or return to your sinfull self. It only takes 100 miliseconds for the mind to change permenantly (research published seven years ago). So, some 100 milisecond period after the 5 years dry-clean-sober, we can start with the "pull yourelf up by your own bootstraps" injunctions, and not a milisecond sooner.............
Rod
Posted by 64Bowtie on December 10, 2008, at 21:02:46
In reply to Re: » 64bowtie, posted by Sigismund on December 5, 2008, at 18:12:25
>>> By 'out of the body experiences', do you mean depersonalisation?
<<< Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................
>>> When you find yourself preferring 'whole body anaesthesia' to life or your relatives, then there you are.<<< I guess I'm missing something.
<<< Like I said before, alcohol and drugs impede the ability to manage the Out-Of-Body experience. "Depersonalisation" as you state it implies "disembodyment", which reads well in a Sci-Fi novel, but is largely involuntary and exercised by someone else on you.
<<< Coasttocoastam had an Near-Death-Experience researcher on last night. Callers ratified his claim that it is common for NDE returners to report being on the ceiling looking down on the proces of the life savers working on them, not from visually in their own body, but as if up at the ceiling. Any night we can go into dream state and actually be Out-Of-Body in an unmanaged session like an NDE.
<<< As an aside I equate the majority of vivid dreams as personal housekeeping of the leftovers of our all toooo busy days. At first it may not seem related, but the more we ruminate and contemplate the happenings in the dream, the clearer the picture of dreams as housekeeping gets. Being as there seems to be a purpose to the dreaming, the picture of managed/unmanaged tends to blur.
<<< Dreaming is a background-awareness function of vision the same as NDEs and managed OOBs. The premise for why managed OOBs can be important in crisis management is that, if I have a toothache, you can see me having the toothache, but can't feel my discomfort and pain. You can remain objective for me while we encounter a crisis. Likewise, traversing OOB while in a personal crisis, we may remain objective from our OOB vantage point. This allows for shrewd analysis and more situation appropriate behavior. Plus the ability to objectively study options, project outcomes and improve the results, before even lifting a finger.
<<< Practicing OOBs for the last 10 years or so (Nov 1998), I have discovered a vertical vectoring to the time required OOB. Depending on my familiarity with the situation, I have gone OOB and returned with optimum strategies and tactics within tens of miliseconds. Its as if time became still while I climbed up a ladder looking for information on higher and higher shelves, allowing me to descend the ladder before time restarted. And, all done within a small part of a real second of time.
<<< Could I have made the exact same decision without all the hooplah? For some people with certain experiences, the probability is high. For me, in the past maybe not so high. But since I was given the keys to this great tool, things just keep getting better and better, day by day.
<<< I'm glad I'm me, now, these days....
Rod
Posted by seldomseen on December 11, 2008, at 10:40:36
In reply to » seldomseen » Thanks for the great response, posted by 64Bowtie on December 10, 2008, at 19:47:31
We are obviously coming at this from different perspectives.
You wrote:
I say: <<<In your own words, "layers and layers of complexity" is the answer to why alcoholics always say, "its toooo hard" to find a cure. "There's just toooo many layers". ***To the excuse maker, this is gospel, this fact***."I see a distinct difference between excuse and reason (as in cause). To me, saying alcoholism has many layers is the reason many people find it so hard to quit. I don't see it as an excuse. To me, it's like saying "the spinal cord injury is the excuse a paraplegic uses for not walking".
One can have moments of clarity, one have a instances where they see their lives for what they are perfectly. A mind can change. The *translation* of that clarity and change into action is the difficult part.
I am not an apologist for the addict, nor am I an advocate for enabling the addict to continue.
I am someone, however, who understands the social, physiological and psychological circumstances that foster it.
This is all I have to say on the subject.
Seldom
Posted by 64Bowtie on December 13, 2008, at 3:46:41
In reply to Re: » 64Bowtie, posted by seldomseen on December 11, 2008, at 10:40:36
» Seldomseen »
I seem to have missed my target...I was attempting to be one more voice as a reminder to not succumb to booze at Xmas...
Outcome thinking prepares the boozer for not boozing because the results are toooo well known to ignore... If just this once they see the impending disaster and restrain their childish impulse "Imp" from ruining their lives, there is hope that the success can be repeated... As the successful repeat performances start adding up, boozers become non-boozers; I've seen it, clearly and unattenuated visually...
Rod
This is the end of the thread.
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