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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 17 to 41 of 77. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:50
In reply to Re: I feel better now... » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 20, 2006, at 19:34:06
Michael, I'm glad you're back on track. That's good news. I just want to warn you that it's probably not a good idea to say blanket statements about what people X believe on psycho-babble.
I think the general theme is to try and treat people like individuals here. I think it's a good piece of advice for life in general, but very difficult in practice. For instance, your love says that she's buddhist, but there are many aspects to buddhist belief and practice. Many different cultures are "buddhist" and many people adopt some things from buddhism and other things from other faiths, philosophies or systems of ethics.
How about getting to know your love a little better. Find out how passionate she is about this buddhism thing, if you're curious. Find out whether she has come to it because she's had problems like you have with the predominant religion of her upbringing? It might be something you have in common. A way to get an interesting conversation started? You seem to have a lot of very interesting, well-developed ideas, and I think you'd be really intriguing to a woman who likes to think about big ideas too.
until then- big dreams are nice too :)
-Li
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:55
>>>>I just want to warn you that it's probably not a good idea to say blanket statements about what people X believe on psycho-babble.
I'm not saying about the people, but the religion itself. If I did make a blanket statement about people, my fault, I'm sorry it was a mistake.
>>>>>For instance, your love says that she's buddhist, but there are many aspects to buddhist belief and practice. Many different cultures are "buddhist" and many people adopt some things from buddhism and other things from other faiths, philosophies or systems of ethics.
I know that, but the Christian religion dictates that a lack of belief in Jesus will lead to eternal punishment. Some Christians believe different, and that's fine, but the Bible is clear. No Jesus = burn in hell.
I'm not going to change a religion to fit contemporary society. It either works, or it doesn't work. Christianity doesn't work, but I still fear I'm wrong.
>>>>>>>How about getting to know your love a little better. Find out how passionate she is about this buddhism thing, if you're curious. Find out whether she has come to it because she's had problems like you have with the predominant religion of her upbringing? It might be something you have in common.
I haven't talked to her in about 2 years. She was a friend from high school, not a close friend, but I loved her, although she didn't know it.
She was raised Christian and simply doesn't believe it anymore, similar to me.
The Bible also clearly says that anyone who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith, is not allowed back in, and cannot be forgiven (Jesus himself said this).
Kind of a hard situation. I wish I wasn't brainwashed to believe this nonsense. I can't seem to get it out of my life.
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:59
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
Michael83,
It is written here,[...The Bibile..clearly says XXX...Jesus..said this...].
Really? Is there a verse that says that?
Lou
Posted by Phil on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:01
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
....The Bible also clearly says that anyone who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith, is not allowed back in, and cannot be forgiven (Jesus himself said this).
________I missed that one. What about the prodigal son?
Jesus will always take you back. As long as you have the back rent covered. Something along those lines.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:04
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:07
In reply to Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by Lou Pilder on September 25, 2006, at 17:04:03
It's been a while since I've read it, I had to find it again. But yes, it's Hebrews 6:4-6 .
It basically says if you've believed once, and then lose faith, you are not allowed back in.
My mistake though, I thought I had read a direct quote from Jesus. This book was authored by one of the apostles, but not a direct quote from Jesus himself.
Posted by Phillipa on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:09
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 18:28:32
The bible has been interpreted over centuries by mortals as we. So we don't really know what's true and what isn't. Michael my ex felt the same way after attending Cathoic schools all his life. Your beliefs are yours to do with as you wish. Love Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:10
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 18:28:32
Friends,
It is written here,[...book of Hebrews chapter 6 verses 4-6...it ..says..not back...].
It is generally accepted that the book of Hebrews was written to Jews, hence title of the book of Hebrews. The author is generally accepted to be the Pharisee, Saul of Tarsus. The book is generally accepted to have been written before 70 AD, which has great significance reletive to Jews.
The verses in question are very challenging and I could tell you what has been revealed to me from a Jew's perspective.
If you are interested in what I have been revealed concerning the verses in question, you could email me if you like.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:12
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2006, at 19:22:42
>>>>>The bible has been interpreted over centuries by mortals as we.
I agree, but most churches in the US and the world, the Bible is not given room for error. In fact, most churches will tell you the writers were "steered" by God to put down exactly what is true, so they will say there are no errors in the Bible.
>>>>>So we don't really know what's true and what isn't.
Then how are we supposed to know what to believe?
If we were given questionable information, who is to blame someone for leaving the faith?
And if they are not to blame for leaving based on faulty, misleading, questionable interpretations, doesn't that contradict the whole "belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation" concept, which is the basis for Christianity?
>>>>>Your beliefs are yours to do with as you wish.
That's not what the Christian religion tells me.
These are the some of the questions I struggle with on a daily basis.
The Christian religion just does not add up. Not a bit. I just don't have enough self esteem to trust my own judgement though.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:15
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by Michael83 on September 26, 2006, at 0:09:45
hrm.
so you got redirected because you were questioning your faith?
welcome to mine
or alternatively sometimes i'm fairly tempted by this:
Open Letter To Kansas School Board
(This is a real letter that was sent)I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.
Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.
It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.
Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.
I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.
You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
(I'd attach the link but aspects of it are probably uncivil)
In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
Sincerely Yours,
Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.
P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.
(I'd attach a link but...)
______________________________In short remember to ask yourself: WWFSMS?
aka: What Would Flying Spaghetti Monster Say?
You can find your local church of the flying spaghetti monster via google.
I'd provide a link but... Well I'm sure you get the general idea.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:17
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by alexandra_k on September 26, 2006, at 0:42:56
Here is some of what Daniel Dennett has to say (available off the Brights website):
A 2002 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life suggests that 27 million Americans are atheist or agnostic or have no religious preference. That figure may well be too low, since many nonbelievers are reluctant to admit that their religious observance is more a civic or social duty than a religious one — more a matter of protective coloration than conviction.
Most brights don't play the "aggressive atheist" role. We don't want to turn every conversation into a debate about religion, and we don't want to offend our friends and neighbors, and so we maintain a diplomatic silence.
But the price is political impotence. Politicians don't think they even have to pay us lip service, and leaders who wouldn't be caught dead making religious or ethnic slurs don't hesitate to disparage the "godless" among us.
From the White House down, bright-bashing is seen as a low-risk vote-getter. And, of course, the assault isn't only rhetorical: the Bush administration has advocated changes in government rules and policies to increase the role of religious organizations in daily life, a serious subversion of the Constitution. It is time to halt this erosion and to take a stand: the United States is not a religious state, it is a secular state that tolerates all religions and — yes — all manner of nonreligious ethical beliefs as well.
I recently took part in a conference in Seattle that brought together leading scientists, artists and authors to talk candidly and informally about their lives to a group of very smart high school students. Toward the end of my allotted 15 minutes, I tried a little experiment. I came out as a bright.
Now, my identity would come as no surprise to anybody with the slightest knowledge of my work. Nevertheless, the result was electrifying.
Many students came up to me afterwards to thank me, with considerable passion, for "liberating" them. I hadn't realized how lonely and insecure these thoughtful teenagers felt. They'd never heard a respected adult say, in an entirely matter of fact way, that he didn't believe in God. I had calmly broken a taboo and shown how easy it was.
In addition, many of the later speakers, including several Nobel laureates, were inspired to say that they, too, were brights. In each case the remark drew applause. Even more gratifying were the comments of adults and students alike who sought me out afterward to tell me that, while they themselves were not brights, they supported bright rights. And that is what we want most of all: to be treated with the same respect accorded to Baptists and Hindus and Catholics, no more and no less.
If you're a bright, what can you do? First, we can be a powerful force in American political life if we simply identify ourselves. (The founding brights maintain a Web site on which you can stand up and be counted.) I appreciate, however, that while coming out of the closet was easy for an academic like me — or for my colleague Richard Dawkins, who has issued a similar call in England — in some parts of the country admitting you're a bright could lead to social calamity. So please: no "outing."
But there's no reason all Americans can't support bright rights. I am neither gay nor African-American, but nobody can use a slur against blacks or homosexuals in my hearing and get away with it. Whatever your theology, you can firmly object when you hear family or friends sneer at atheists or agnostics or other godless folk.
And you can ask your political candidates these questions: Would you vote for an otherwise qualified candidate for public office who was a bright? Would you support a nominee for the Supreme Court who was a bright? Do you think brights should be allowed to be high school teachers? Or chiefs of police?
Let's get America's candidates thinking about how to respond to a swelling chorus of brights. With any luck, we'll soon hear some squirming politician trying to get off the hot seat with the feeble comment that "some of my best friends are brights."
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:19
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
> The Bible also clearly says that anyone who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith, is not allowed back in, and cannot be forgiven (Jesus himself said this).
I've been a practicing member of three denominations. Not one of them taught this, and all three actively expressed the opposite viewpoint.
Posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:24
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte » Michael83, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2006, at 7:29:23
Michael, Jesus didn't say that. He did say that a sin against the Holy Spirit was unforgiveable. Is that what you're thinking of?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:31
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 17:53:33
This is a pretty good look at contradictions in biblical texts:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#introduction
This church looks okay...
http://www.churchofvirus.org/index.html
I think it might be inspired by Dennett and Dawkins new books on religion... They consider the idea (meme) of religion to be a parasite that survives in spite of harming the hosts (us people).
Posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:32
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by alexandra_k on September 26, 2006, at 19:44:56
This is a bit off topic, but I didn't like "The Blind Watchmaker" (is it?) by Dawkins. Maybe he's not a very attractive personality?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:34
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83 » alexandra_k, posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 21:37:04
I started reading it but I never finished.
He wrote "The Selfish Gene" which is more influential.
People thought natural selection worked at the level of the organism, but he argued that the unit of selection was the gene. Organisms are just things that carry around genes. Thats how come people risk their lives for their kids and stuff... Survival of the genes...He has a book out now on religion. Dennett has one too.
I'll see if I can link to them:
It is controversial...
But kinda interesting. My version of novels...
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:35
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 17:53:33
It was my mistake, one of the apostles said it on the book of Hebrews, I gave the verse above.
But nonetheless, the church generally says the Bible is 100% correct because it was inspired by the word of God.
But as I said above...
Then how are we supposed to know what to believe?
If we were given questionable information, who is to blame someone for leaving the faith? Humans are not perfect, so how can the system of judgement leave no room for error?
And if they are not to blame for leaving based on faulty, misleading, questionable interpretations, doesn't that contradict the whole "belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation" concept, which is the basis for Christianity?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:37
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83 » Declan, posted by Michael83 on September 27, 2006, at 1:28:45
> But nonetheless, the church generally says the Bible is 100% correct because it was inspired by the word of God.Unfortunately the Bible says contradictory things hence it can't be 100% correct.
> Then how are we supposed to know what to believe?I guess... One might have to fall back on your making up your own mind instead of relying on the bible / church doctrine...
Posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:40
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83 » Declan, posted by Michael83 on September 27, 2006, at 1:28:45
Michael, "belief in Jesus as the only way to salvation" is a bit different from the Christianity I was brought up on. We were told that too, I guess, but believed inconsistantly that those who hadn't had the opportunity to hear the Word were OK, and even those who were in the wrong (everyone but us) were OK too, as long as they were good (or something).
Sunday School was taken by Baptists who taught us all about Satan being tied up for 1000 years (in the bottomless pit?), and then him being loosed on the world and Armageddon and all that interesting stuff.
It took me a while to understand that the men didn't really believe in any of it, while the women would have liked to. This explained the funny looks everyone had on their faces as they came back from Communion. I asked my mother what they were doing up there and she said something about a body. I assumed she was talking about sex and left it at that (maybe I was right?). But anyway, that was a while ago and there's been a fundamentalist revival since.
You know how in Islam apostasy (turning from the faith) is a capital offence? When I was growing up we were culturally secure/arrogant enough to believe that we were much more enlightened.
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:45
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by Declan on September 27, 2006, at 14:40:25
I'm not completely sure I understand what you're saying Declan.
>>>>but believed inconsistantly that those who hadn't had the opportunity to hear the Word were OK, and even those who were in the wrong (everyone but us) were OK too, as long as they were good (or something).
I onced believed that too, but I realized I want to believe in a certain religion the way is was originally supposed to be believed in, or not believe in it at all. I'm not going to "prop up" and modernize a religion. If a religion is correct, it should withstand time and social change.
Not everyone believes what I stated, thankfully.
Those who believe in the more "open minded" Christianity in my opinion use religion responsibly.
While those who teach the "fire and brimstone" version are teaching a very irresponsible version. Deep down, I think those people are just as scared as I am (and others are just insecure or arrogant), but they cannot conjure up the courage to believe in a more reasonable version of Christianity.
All the nicest and intelligent people I've known who were Christian believed in the responsible version, while the least intelligent, most bigoted, and arrogant believed in the irresponsible version. I think if there is a god, he created us to react in certain ways to the philosophical tenets that are best. Meaning, if you insert a good philosophy, you will get a person who is universally admired, if you insert a bad one, you will get an opposite result (the arrogant, bigoted types often seen).
I just can't get myself to believe the "fire and brimstone" version isn't true, although I've logically defeated it in my mind a million times.
>>>>>When I was growing up we were culturally secure/arrogant enough to believe that we were much more enlightened.
As long as the "fire and brimstone" version exists in this society, we're no better than them.
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:48
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by alexandra_k on September 27, 2006, at 2:11:59
When I say the phrase "Then how are we supposed to know what to believe?" I'm basically trying to declare the traditional Christian religion null and void based on the logic I present.
My basic argument is, if there is contradictory, bad, false, unbelievable, or unreasonable information, and the religion's tenets leave no room for forgiveness (at least in terms of whether or not you'll go to hell) for someone who has used their logic, yet came up at odds with the faith, how can this belief system be valid?
This would mean good people, who really thought about it and offered their belief, but were turned away by faulty, misleading, or unreasonable, are going to hell.
A religion like that is not just.
How can a perfect God create an unjust system/religion? I don't believe God would create an unjust system where good people (who were born into a life without their consent and forced to make this decision) slip through the cracks, and where only only a lucky few who were emotionally/intellectually vulnerable enough to believe it get to go to heaven, while the rest will be punished for eternity.
I could write volumes more on this, but I'd have a nervous breakdown, so I'm going to bed now.
But doesn't my logic make sense? I'm not the only one who sees that am I?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:50
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83 » alexandra_k, posted by Michael83 on September 28, 2006, at 0:49:37
> if there is contradictory, bad, false, unbelievable, or unreasonable information...
maybe that comes of taking the bible literally instead of metaphorically?
> How can a perfect God create an unjust system/religion?
maybe he just let the translators corrupt it...
but then you get the problem of evil.
i think the problem of evil if fatal. i think the problem of evil shows that it is not logically possible that god (an all loving, all knowing, all powerful agent) exists, hence it is not actual that god exists (hence god does not exist)
but there have been numerous theodicies (defences) of that conception of god in the face of the problem of evil...
apparantly philosophers (who study such things) are split down the middle regarding the existence of omni-god. so... who knows.
i just... find that notion of god doesn't help me understand, explain, or find meaning that i can't get from alternative explanations. and so... i have no use for the concept of god.
but it is an individual decision, i guess...
Posted by rayww on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:54
In reply to Having panic/anxiety attack again, ADVICE? HELP?, posted by Michael83 on September 19, 2006, at 21:58:06
When you feel confusion about religion and your mind becomes darkened it means that you should keep searching. Religion should bring peace to your soul, and should not make you feel like justifying by fighting against another. Those are all on the dark side of religion. There is a bright side to religion. Pray, seek, trust till you get on the right track.
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:59
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety....and it's one thing... » Phillipa, posted by Michael83 on September 19, 2006, at 23:07:48
Michael83,
You wrote,[...I do not believe in heaven, Jesus, the bible, miracles, an afterlife, or anything like that....To believe in any of those things is impossible...].
I ask;
A. By what authority do you use to write that it is impossible to believe in any of the things that you mentioned to be impossible?
B. If it is impossible, as you write, to believe those things, could it be possible, in your opinion, that there could be things unbeknowing to you that could make it possible to believe those things?
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 29, 2006, at 23:04:02
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by Michael83 on September 26, 2006, at 0:09:45
Michael83,
You wrote,[...The Christian relgion..does not add up....Not a bit...].
I ask;
A. What is your definition of the phrase,{add up}?
B. In your use of {not a bit}, are you saying that there is not {any} part of the Christian religion that {adds up}?
Lou
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