![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 72 to 96 of 115. Go back in thread:
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 1:44:29
In reply to Can't sleep, can't stop crying, posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 1:36:01
the hospital than dead. You don't have to worry about them being angry because you ask for help.
I am a parent. My daughter ended up in the hospital and they helped her so much! It was sad to see her need to go there, but it was a huge relief that she got the help she needed.
Posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 1:47:13
In reply to Why won't you get help? (nm) » Deneb, posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 1:39:19
What am I going to do?
I'm pretty sure I won't kill myself now. I think I'm going to OD.
Do I waltz into a hospital and say that I'm only thinking of ODing? not even of killing myself anymore? only of hurting myself? and then not even actually doing it?
What are they going to think?
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 2:01:41
In reply to Re: Why won't you get help?, posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 1:47:13
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 2:04:26
In reply to At least call them and see what they have to say. (nm) » Deneb, posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 2:01:41
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 2:09:56
In reply to Dial 411 and ask for the # to any suicide hotline. (nm) » crazy teresa, posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 2:04:26
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 2:12:06
In reply to Re: Why won't you get help?, posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 1:47:13
Posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2005, at 4:42:55
In reply to Re: Need to understand triggers and suicide » alexandra_k, posted by ClearSkies on October 14, 2005, at 19:31:04
> I think you missed the point here, Alexandra - that there is an apology, then a repeat of action requiring an apology, then an apology...
Do you ever apologise without really understanding just what it is that you are apologising for? I do this sometimes.
What is the apology supposed to be for?
For other peoples hurt feelings?
For posting something to *make them feel* bad?
What did she do wrong (thinking of this thread - not past threads)?
Are we always required to stop our behaviour if other people feel upset as a result?
Couldn't there be situations where we have needs too?
The post said 'need to understand'. I think that indicated that she was going to be struggling with that in the thread
>if she hadn't done anything to upset people, then why the cycle of apology and posting repeatedly about the same subject?
Maybe because she can feel something of peoples frustration. When I feel like people are frustrated with me sometimes I get pretty scaired and apologise repeatedly even though I'm not really sure what went wrong.
>That's the problem with crying wolf
And maybe...
There is a problem with respect to considering it to be 'crying wolf' to start with...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2005, at 4:58:55
In reply to Re: CLARIFICATION Alexandra, posted by rainbowbrite on October 14, 2005, at 20:37:56
> If I had to ask someone if they were my firned they wouldnt be my firend. Im not following...
okay. sorry the example didn't work... i'm not so good at coming up with examples... i was trying to get at... how sometimes we can lose sight of something we 'know' at other times. when i'm really stressed out i start to feel a little paranoid. that people don't really want me around. one way of getting the reassurance i need (which i think we all probably need at times) would be to ask outright.
sometimes that isn't the best strategy as you note. there are other things you can do too. you can do something nice for someone so they are likely to express appreciation for you without your having to ask for it directly or whatever.
but i just meant that... sometimes when times are tough (when we are really upset) we need to hear something that we heard and accepted before... it just doesn't seem to be so accessible
(like a positive world view when one is entrenched in depression)
> I have been! there was no trigger to the post in question.
no. but it was going to be about understanding triggers etc - which kind of implies that she was having difficulty there.
> To me it feels like this is all a repeat over adn over agian but done with slightly differnet words.
i think that because of last time (where there was a joke)
you might be primed to see it that way this time too?i know this is really hard for you too.
that it is a hard topic.
and it is a hard topic for most people.i hate being triggered :-(
and sometimes i find stuff off the board triggers me for days...
((((rainbow))))maybe avoid all of denebs posts with 'trigger' or 'suicide' in the subject header?
i don't think you are too sensitive.
i have to avoid some posts at times too.
don't even open them.other people open them
other people may well be in a better place to deal with them
other people respond to themand then when one is feeling better one may be able to read.
or not...
but there are other people here and there is no obligation to read everything.sometimes i have trouble with particular posters even and we just seem to kind of ignore each others posts.
> Also forgetting happens to everyone. But how can you forget something like this? What I was trying to say is I just cant understand that.
when its your trauma...
it can be hard to figure out how to forget it.sometimes suicide can come to represent something very different indeed.
depending on how close one has come to it...
perhaps.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2005, at 5:10:19
In reply to Re: You DON'T Need to understand triggers » Deneb, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 20:26:21
> Manipulative
> being very overly dramaticI'm not sure how much these terms help...
> But the WAY you ask about it is clearly troubling to more than one poster.> Alexandra asks if that matters as long as you're staying within civility guidelines. If it matters to YOU, than it might be a sign that you need to change your behavior. If you LIKE the negative attention, then DON'T change your behavior. It depends on what you want and what you get.
Can you think of something that is important to you that results in negative attention from others? If you can't... Then can you imagine a scenario where there could be something that is important to someone that resulted in negative attention from others? Can you imagine cases where the person may be justified in continuing in their behaviour DESPITE it being met with negative reactions from others? And DESPITE their not continuing it with this goal in mind...
> But if you keep posting in the same old ways, you'll get the same old responses. If you want new responses, or to change people's opinions of you on the site, you'll need to change the way you interact. It's that simple.
Or the other option...
Would be to let other people take responsibility for their own responses.
To ignore their posts if they are negative
And trust the PBC Blocking system to interveane if posters get too pushy...with their attempt to alter ones behaviour...
guilt
guilt
guilt
can be a good way to get someone to do what you want them to doand how do we decide whether the person should stop their behaviour...
or whether we need to take more responsibility for our responses to it...
maybe if we don't have much that is positive to offer then we could leave posts for other people to offer something positive...
and i guess if the community is at a loss...
then the poster will eventually get sick of being ignored.
but will it come to that?
Posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 6:27:46
In reply to Re: Why won't you get help?, posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 1:47:13
A person with a borderline personality disorder often experiences a repetitive pattern of disorganization and instability in self-image, mood, behavior and close personal relationships. This can cause significant distress or impairment in friendships and work. A person with this disorder can often be bright and intelligent, and appear warm, friendly and competent. They sometimes can maintain this appearance for a number of years until their defense structure crumbles, usually around a stressful situation like the breakup of a romantic relationship or the death of a parent.
Symptoms
Relationships with others are intense but stormy and unstable with marked shifts of feelings and difficulties in maintaining intimate, close connections. The person may manipulate others and often has difficulty with trusting others. There is also emotional instability with marked and frequent shifts to an empty lonely depression or to irritability and anxiety. There may be unpredictable and impulsive behavior which might include excessive spending, promiscuity, gambling, drug or alcohol abuse, shoplifting, overeating or physically self-damaging actions such as suicide gestures. The person may show inappropriate and intense anger or rage with temper tantrums, constant brooding and resentment, feelings of deprivation, and a loss of control or fear of loss of control over angry feelings. There are also identity disturbances with confusion and uncertainty about self-identity, sexuality, life goals and values, career choices, friendships. There is a deep-seated feeling that one is flawed, defective, damaged or bad in some way, with a tendency to go to extremes in thinking, feeling or behavior. Under extreme stress or in severe cases there can be brief psychotic episodes with loss of contact with reality or bizarre behavior or symptoms. Even in less severe instances, there is often significant disruption of relationships and work performance. The depression which accompanies this disorder can cause much suffering and can lead to serious suicide attempts.Etiology
It is a common disorder with estimates running as high as 10-14% of the general population. The frequency in women is two to three times greater than men. This may be related to genetic or hormonal influences. An association between this disorder and severe cases of premenstrual tension has been postulated. Women commonly suffer from depression more often than men. The increased frequency of borderline disorders among women may also be a consequence of the greater incidence of incestuous experiences during their childhood. This is believed to occur ten times more often in women than in men, with estimates running to up to one-fourth of all women. This chronic or periodic victimization and sometimes brutalization can later result in impaired relationships and mistrust of men and excessive preoccupation with sexuality, sexual promiscuity, inhibitions, deep-seated depression and a seriously damaged self-image. There may be an innate predisposition to this disorder in some people. Because of this there may ensue subsequent failures in development in the relationship between mother and infant particularly during the separation and identity-forming phases of childhood.>>>*****Treatment*****<<< ***********************
Treatment includes psychotherapy which allows the patient to talk about both present difficulties and past experiences in the presence of an empathetic, accepting and non-judgemental therapist. The therapy needs to be structured, consistent and regular, with the patient encouraged to talk about his or her feelings rather than to discharge them in his or her usual self-defeating ways. Sometimes medications such as antidepressants, lithium carbonate, or antipsychotic medication are useful for certain patients or during certain times in the treatment of individual patients. Treatment of any alcohol or drug abuse problems is often mandatory if the therapy is to be able to continue. Brief hospitalization may sometimes be necessary during acutely stressful episodes or if suicide or other self-destructive behavior threatens to erupt. Hospitalization may provide a a temporary removal from external stress. Outpatient treatment is usually difficult and long-term - sometimes over a number of years. The goals of treatment could include increased self-awareness with greater impulse control and increased stability of relationships. A positive result would be in one's increased tolerance of anxiety. Therapy should help to alleviate psychotic or mood-disturbance symptoms and generally integrate the whole personality. With this increased awareness and capacity for self-observation and introspection, it is hoped the patient will be able to change the rigid patterns tragically set earlier in life and prevent the pattern from repeating itself in the next generational cycle."Richard J. Corelli, M.D."
http://www.stanford.edu/~corelli/borderline.html
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 6:45:01
In reply to Re: Why won't you get help? » Deneb, posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 6:27:46
Treatment
Treatments for BPD have improved in recent years. Group and individual psychotherapy are at least partially effective for many patients. Within the past 15 years, a new psychosocial treatment termed dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) was developed specifically to treat BPD, and this technique has looked promising in treatment studies. Pharmacological treatments are often prescribed based on specific target symptoms shown by the individual patient. Antidepressant drugs and mood stabilizers may be helpful for depressed and/or labile mood. Antipsychotic drugs may also be used when there are distortions in thinking.http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bpd.cfm
-------------------------------------------------
Treatments for BPD have improved in recent years...
In 1991, a new psychosocial treatment termed Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) was developed specifically to treat BPD, and this technique was the first to show any efficacy compared to a control group. Marsha Linehan, the developer of DBT, said in the early days that it took about a year to see substantial enduring improvement. Combining SSRIs and DBT (probably the standard treatment now) seems to give satisfying synergy and faster results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality
-------------------------------------------------
In Conclusion
Psychotherapeutic interventions have been shown to be the most effective intervention for modifying some forms of difficult behaviour displayed by people with personality disorders. These treatments require time and special expertise and should be delivered by specialist treatment facilities.
http://www.iop.kcl.ac.uk/iopweb/departments/home/default.aspx?locator=600
(Maudsley Hospital in London is possibly the best in the UK for psychiatric reseach from what I understand)
Best of luck I hope this information helps.
Best Wishes
Nick
Posted by holymama on October 15, 2005, at 7:13:03
In reply to Re: Why won't you get help?Deneb, posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 6:45:01
Thoughts about wanting to kill yourself without actually doing it is called 'suicidal ideation'. You definitely are experiencing that right now. Any hospital will accept you if you have suicidal ideation. You just tell them that you are thinking about it, and they will ask you if you have a plan on how you would do it. I think you have that too.
A lot of people go into the hospital without having tried to kill themselves. Just the thought to do it is enough. If you were to go into the hospital with just the thought to harm yourself, it means you were smart and prevented yourself from getting that far.
I've admitted myself to a psych hospital three times because of suicidal ideation. I couldn't get those thoughts out of my head and I didn't feel safe in that frame of mind.
Perhaps you have grown and learned enough since your OD so that you will get help BEFORE you do it, not after.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PROVING YOURSELF ON THIS WEBSITE! WE ALL KNOW HOW TWISTED OUR MINDS CAN GET WHEN WE ARE ILL, AND WE KNOW THAT SUICIDAL URGES COME AND GO. yOU DON'T NEED TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON A THREAT TO PROVE THAT YOU WILL DO WHAT YOU SAY. EVERYONE HOPES YOU WILL GET HELP FOR THESE FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS, NOT FOLLOW THROUGH WITH THEM.
~~Autumn~~
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 15, 2005, at 7:46:30
In reply to Deneb: suicidal ideation **Trigger**, posted by holymama on October 15, 2005, at 7:13:03
I can't find the exact post where you posted the stats of how many people with BPD commit suicide.
Current thinking on that area isn't that 9% commit suicide, its that 9% die. Its thought that a substantial number of those people *weren't* meaning to die. It was self harm gone wrong.. ie, they self harmed (eg, by taking an over dose that they didn't think was large enough to kill them) but ended up dying.
It skews the stats, as they are still recorded as suicide most of the time.
Deneb, my "preferred" method of self harm, nearly always to punish myself for something, was taking over doses that wren't enough to kill me, but enough to make me ill.. I never reported to ospital with these, and I'm lucky to now be alive. BUT, I know deal daily with stomach problems and bowel problems caused by this, my liver function is "borderline", and I can't take ANY oral pain killers any more. Thanks to my over doses, I can't even take pain killers for the severe, chronic pain I suffer from nerve damage in my arm.
Can you imagine getting one of those bad, nasty head aches and not being able to take anything for them? Getting flu and not being able to take anything for the fever and aches and pains?
A "mini overdose" as I always called them can be dangerous, long term.. just because they dont kill, it doesnt mean that they#re not doing nasty damage.
If you wanted to just go and do it, you would.. By posting here you are trying to find, how ever subconciously, a means to stop yourself.. Let us help you stop this behaviour..
I hope you went to the hospital. They are there to help you.. Tell them you are wanting to take an over dose.. just that.. simple.. tell them you are siffering from suicidal ideation.. Find the crisis line for your psychiatric services and CALL THEM.. (And dont tell us tere isn't one for you..)
Nikki xx
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 8:38:35
In reply to Re: CLARIFICATION Alexandra » rainbowbrite, posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2005, at 4:58:55
> I have been! there was no trigger to the post in question.
--no. but it was going to be about understanding triggers etc - which kind of implies that she was having difficulty there.
I am not talking about this post! this post was not what upset me! When I read the upsetting post ON ANOTNER board I babbled DEneb, asking to put trigger on certasin things SO THAT I COULD AVOID IT. its a very vulnerable feeling to do that and say this is my pain could you warn me in advance. This was my response!! This thread. NO acknowledgement, nothing. No reply from her BUt this thread. I let her know exactly what it was, why it bothered me and then this thread!! Does it make sense now? once again it was NOT this thread.
It was a personal thing, and I was trying to gently let her know and ask becasue of my issues if she would put trigger on certain topics so I could avoid. WAs that so wrong of me? was that too selfish of me? I offered to be there if she needed. PLease was that so wrong? should I have posted a thread about it insteasd? I didnt want to because of how it hurts me, I didnt want DEneb to feel attacked, but her own thread did that. Maybe that is what the goal was, I dont knwo. i just wanted her to know where I was defective and that maybe if she wouldnt mind warning me. i didnt want to make a big deal about it. So this was the response Am I overreacting? Im upset this thread happened,,,NOT becasue of the TRigger issue though. because I feel like either she didnt respect me or i dont know...As I said before, I must be too sensitive.> To me it feels like this is all a repeat over adn over agian but done with slightly differnet words.
>i think that because of last time (where there was a joke)
you might be primed to see it that way this time too?
no I thought last time was not a joke, in fact I think that was about 5 threads like this ago. I cant remember but I do not have that fresh in my mind, I was trying to explain to her how she comes accross at times.
I know Deneb is in very real excruciating pain at times. I just wish she was more receptive to help. I feel for her, it must be very difficult. I hope that one day seh talks to her paresnt and explains her pain, I hope that one day she will trust her pdoc and do what he recomends, I hope that one day she gets treatment because she is a very smart girl who could make a diffenrece. I care about what happens to Deneb, and I hope she is ok. I really do.
>maybe avoid all of denebs posts with 'trigger' or 'suicide' in the subject header?again, I had been..there was no trigger
>i don't think you are too sensitive.
i have to avoid some posts at times too.
don't even open them.
>other people open them
other people may well be in a better place to deal with them
other people respond to them>and then when one is feeling better one may be able to read.
or not...
but there are other people here and there is no obligation to read everything.I do the same thing, I was not in the mood to read anything triggery, I was on my way out, I was just checking to see how she was doing in a follow up thread on another board, not this thread. this thread upsetme only becasue I couldnt understand how AFTER my babble she still didnt understand. It hurt. To me It felt like this was to stir people up. If she wanted further explanation she could have asked me. Does anyone understand what Im saying? I feel like Im not being clear. I was/am insulted by this thread :-( but it really matters to me that you understand that it was not this thread, I saw it and my face went red from anger and I burst into tears, That is orobably not a time to post but.. i was upset that I had had such an intense reaction to babble. kind of scared me.
i understand not knowing what to put trigger on, I do. It took me forever to understand the concept of trigger. I learned the impact recenl=tly. What I do not understnad is how someone elses pain can not be understood. Its just empathy. If you babbled me adn said....hey rain when you get stressed at school it really triggers mee and I get really worked up because of a personal issue (stupid example I know) would you mind putting trigger when you post that? How would you feel if I wrote publicly on the boards "hi everyone, i dont understand trigger, I dont understnad why certain people are affected buy a word, I dont understand etc." do you see what Im saying? I felt awful. It felt invalidating. I thought I must be overreacting.>sometimes i have trouble with particular posters even and we just seem to kind of ignore each others posts.
well Im going to stay away for a bit, and I will not be reading anymore of Denebs posts becasue I cant trust it when there is NO trigger that it wont be a trigger.
> Also forgetting happens to everyone. But how can you forget something like this? What I was trying to say is I just cant understand that.
>when its your trauma...
it can be hard to figure out how to forget it.Im confused? she shouldnt forget then? That was a resoinse to you sayng she forgets about all this, sorry if I wasnt clear.
my itital post on this thread to Deneb was not meant to be understodd by anyone other thatn Deneb, sorry for cbeing confusing.
Am I being clear? Will someone tell me if they know what Im saying before I lose it?Thanks
Posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 8:58:34
In reply to very frustrated » alexandra_k, posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 8:38:35
Hi rainbowbrite,
>Am I being clear? Will someone tell me if they know what Im saying before I lose it?
:-)
I understand exactly what you're saying, don't worry you are not losing it!
I have wrote long detailed posts to Deneb too in this thread and in the past about my Grandfather who commited suicide, when she was later blocked for joking about death. Only to have my posts not replied too.
I think theres a moral in this thread somewhere, or at least I've learnt alot from it.
Warm regards
Nick
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 9:02:50
In reply to Re: very frustrated » rainbowbrite, posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 8:58:34
I appretiate that.
Im so sorry about your grandfather (((Nick)))
You have posted some great things. very insightful and helpful.
Take care
Rain
Posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 9:26:19
In reply to Thank you NIck! » Nickengland, posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 9:02:50
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 11:51:52
In reply to very frustrated » alexandra_k, posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 8:38:35
Hey Rain,
I hope you're ok. I understand what you're saying. Back away from the edge. ;~} We're here for you. I'm sorry this has happened.
XOXO
crazy t
Posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 12:06:22
In reply to some current thinking on BPD - Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on October 15, 2005, at 7:46:30
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 12:11:27
In reply to I'm safe...Mom is home all day (nm), posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 12:06:22
Posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 12:34:03
In reply to very frustrated » alexandra_k, posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 8:38:35
Rainbowbite,
I started this thread because I was angry at you for telling me to put triggers up when I was in such an obviously distraught state. To me it seemed like you just wanted to upset me even more and push me to suicide. Yes, I was that upset. I thought that you were being selfish because your hurt wouldn't lead you to kill yourself, but your trying to alleviate your hurt could have possibility lead me to suicide and yet you still did it.
That is how badly I felt. It is selfish yes. That's all I can say. There is no rhyme or reason to how I feel. I'm insane, remember that.
Posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 12:36:45
In reply to Re: very frustrated » rainbowbrite, posted by Nickengland on October 15, 2005, at 8:58:34
> I have wrote long detailed posts to Deneb too in this thread and in the past about my Grandfather who commited suicide, when she was later blocked for joking about death. Only to have my posts not replied too.
Sorry I didn't reply to you. I was tired and didn't want to think.
Deneb
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 13:03:13
In reply to To rainbowbrite, why I got angry at you, posted by Deneb on October 15, 2005, at 12:34:03
And I will return the curtisy to you.
>I thought that you were being selfish because your hurt wouldn't lead you to kill yourself
Selfish? I offered support and put it all on me, I said I couldnt explain why it got to me. I made myself vulnerable to you. I will rethink this in the future. Maybe it was bad timing but I dont know when the timing is good Deneb.
deneb it hurts that you would think this about me, I have spent enough time with you in open to think you'd know me better than that.Deneb the point was there was no trigger on that post, infact you had handled quite well and I was checking to see how you were. Had there been a trigger I probably wouldnt have read it. i accpet that that is my issue and that is why I babbled you. *I* was takin gresponsibiliity for *ME* asking you a favor. You could have replied and asked me? Instead the entire social board was disrupted regarding this.
i have a really good example of how to help you understand how peopple are triggered by certain things. I dont know if I can do this civilly but I will try, I have no feelings towards hamsters, none. So something to do with a hamster might not affect me one way or the other. But Im sure it would feel very different for you. i understand that. i understand that everyone has differnet values and beliefs. I understand that everyone gets upset over personalize issues. Hope that was ok.
I never ever said anything to lead you to believe that I would kill myself for being triggered by your post. Ever! and even if I had been *that* triggered, I would NEVER EVER tell someone or lead someone to believe that tehy were responsibile for my actions. We are all responsibile for our own actions and no one can drive another person to sucide! they cant. Im taking a much needed ativan now, becasue *I* have let myself get way too upset over this and *I* really dont need this right now.
I suppose... this thread was successful. Im sorry everyone that I babbled Deneb. It will never happen again.
Posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 13:05:18
In reply to Re: very frustrated » rainbowbrite, posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 11:51:52
Thank you CT,
I will be. I need to get away from this and go out and clear my head.
It must be pms as well
Posted by crazy teresa on October 15, 2005, at 13:57:40
In reply to Re: very frustrated » crazy teresa, posted by rainbowbrite on October 15, 2005, at 13:05:18
We can't help you if you don't want to help yourself. There's just no way around this fact.
We have asked you repeatedly to get help. You choose not to. That is your choice, which I will respect.
In order to respect your choice, I will no longer post to you. I have tried to encourage you; yesterday I even tried some tough love, none of which motivated you to do what needs to be done.
I'm sorry you choose to suffer. (Yes, not getting help is the same as choosing to suffer.) It's come to the point where you seem to be mocking us because this has happened so frequently. I will no longer participate in whatever it is you're doing, be it unintentional or not.
Best of luck with your journey in life.
crazy teresa
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