![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on May 10, 2004, at 15:36:51
I'm like a "broken record" or a "bad penny". If you dig through the archives, I continue to repeat my message inside different syntax, because people have asked me to say it differently since they can't understand what I am trying to say. How would you do it? Please tell me.
Czeking the Babble archives, I go back to the first week in November, 2003.
Understand please that I was where many of these folks were, only 20 years ago. I found my own way out. I had help. I didn't have 'meds' or therapy. I studied and debated endlessly.
What's different is the simplicity. I have a simple message. Don't-do-it-the-way-I-did! I took tooooooooo long and wasted part of my life, in 20-20 hindsight. I see it as unwise to go back to school now to become a shrink. I must find another way. Babble helps me think and discover, just like it was designed to do for everyone. I am simply solving a different set of problems from the next guy. Along the way, I hope I enlighten others as I was enlightened, and sooner for them.
If you feel I am outta line, email me at dr_rod1 at yahoo dot com.
Rod
Posted by TexasChic on May 10, 2004, at 16:31:54
In reply to » spoc, posted by 64bowtie on May 10, 2004, at 15:36:51
I just realized you are Dr. Rod. I remember you. I don't think anyone has a problem with what you're saying. I just think people may be concerned that you're posting so many threads on the same subject. I realize you want to be heard, but when you post all over the place you kind of take away from the other posts. I'm sure the other poster's feel their messages are just as important, but they don't post them more than once (for the most part).
I realize you want to help people by sharing what you've learned in life. That's an admirable quality, and you obviously feel strongly about it. The thing is most people won't take someone else's word for it, they have to learn it for themselves. Once they've tried everything with no success (meds, ect.), they would probably be very interested in what you have to say.
Your posts are kind of hard to understand (to me anyway). To me they seem kind of abstract. I recognize that you are very intelligent and you may just be going over my head. Maybe you could try to simplify things a little. Like maybe just broach one particular subject or thought at a time. You also might want to post something in the title that has to do with what you are trying to say, otherwise, people might just skip over them.
Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as offensive because I'm really just trying to be helpful. Hopefully I won't get a 'please be civil' message! I'm signing off for the day, so maybe we'll talk tomorrow.
Posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 11:03:59
In reply to » spoc, posted by 64bowtie on May 10, 2004, at 15:36:51
Ooops, another clarification, as I was making my tally I hadn’t see this thread yet:
“Racer, et al..”
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040503/msgs/345158.html> I'm like a "broken record" or a "bad penny". If you dig through the archives, I continue to repeat my message inside different syntax, because people have asked me to say it differently since they can't understand what I am trying to say. How would you do it? Please tell me. >
*** You are committed to growth and self-improvement, so maybe it would be a good idea for you to consult some kind of communications professional on where you could better convey your message? Because if that's what is most important to you I do think you have a lot to work with there, in adjusting your phrasing and tone. Maybe you could print a lot of your posts and take them to the consultation, making sure the context of this place is known, or even having the consultant spend some time browsing the site first.
And I assume you are keeping it in mind that the demographic probably typically targeted by life coaches and motivational speakers may not include genuine psychiatric problems. They may not wish to or find it advisable to tread there, which is why other industries requiring much specialization exist. Which, yes! I realize are all parts of what you are hypothesizing is being done *backwards* to begin with! I note it only because a lot of any communication problems you are concerned about may be due to the fact that going into a population like this, "your mileage can be expected to vary greatly!" But to achieve what you want to achieve, that has to be accounted for.
But for now, ok, you asked me. I assume that means you are permitting me latitude here and inviting me to speak freely. Inviting one person’s opinion on why your message doesn’t always get to where you’d hoped, if indeed it doesn't, as you state. So in an attempt to fulfill that, following is what I personally – NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH ANYONE OR EVERYONE ELSE HERE – think could be factors; and as requested, what I personally would do differently. When I ask people to be frank with me about something I am doing, implicit in that is my preparedness to hear some things I may not like. That is the spirit in which this was taken and addressed, so I hope I don’t "get in trouble!"
Clarity: People seem to conclude that maybe the message is over their heads, and it's a shame for them to underestimate themselves that way, because I don't think that is what is at the root of it. When you compose your messages, are you truly phrasing them only with the intent of making the principle clear to the widest audience; or are you liking the way it sounds -- to you? (This may also tie into how it may be perceived if someone posts the same message in six locations.) Maybe you are hoping that both are being accomplished at the same time, but if they aren't, it's the kind of thing you are saying you want to be aware of.
The "word package" in which a message will be most widely interesting and comprehensible to others may be quite different than the "word package" in which you like to receive your information yourself. But as it relates to your purposes and your career, you are probably the one who is going to need to take the hit! Perhaps you are modeling the style(s) of other speakers/writers whom you admire, but until a person is quite established as someone who is coming across effectively, they probably can't be sure that they are applying that style accurately themselves.
And in the case that some people really aren’t able to dig out the true message, you may be expressing things that in reality would elicit very strong opinions if they were instead just stated flat-out. That may be an attempt towards tactfulness, but it may instead sometimes be heard as burying a possibly disturbing implication in layers of words. They may kind of avoid it because there is some sense that all the cards are not on the table, and they are being tweaked somehow. So maybe it would be more effective to just be very straightforward in making your points, even if likely to meet strong reactions at times. Kind of like how people often say what put them off from being willing to try a certain med was that the doctor packaged things in a way designed only to elicit compliance, even if the client doesn't actually know what is going on. But suspects something is going on, and so withholds good faith. (An analogy only, I realize psy meds are part of what you advise against!)
Tone: I myself hear condescension in it, and even if a subtext of your message is that that is necessary, when people can detect it, they don't listen or they may even be likely to dismiss it/rail against it where otherwise they may have been open to it. Despite the intellectualized "word package," I personally also hear patronization. As in when we are addressing someone we have already determined must, for one reason or another, be handled with kid gloves and techniques. Including the technique of pretending to be pondering and working through something together; when in reality the conclusion was very much already foregone, and is seen as righteous by the deliverer. As in -- yes -- adult to child. Which again may be an underlying theme, but you don't want people to be able to detect it.
And if you are indeed still trying to work through some things yourself here, that would mean you want to have two-way dialogues with fellow adults, being fully prepared to be the one who at times learns and adjusts his stance. But is that what you are doing? If not; and people can tell that the principles are not open for *true* discussion and debate; they may not want to participate.
My reason for posting clarifications as to where all of your similar threads in this batch could be located was that you were initiating a potentially heated subject, given this population: That bad things may have happened to us as children, and we chose to get stuck at bellyaching over them, and then perpetuate the misery if not violence on others including children, and therefore we remain ourselves children. That is actually not a novel theory of how dysfunction works, and awareness of it hasn't changed the world yet, even if it should have. Perhaps that's another reason why I hear patronization -- platitudes often feel that way. And myself, I would be less likely to hear anything that at its core predetermines who I am and what is going on in my case, and all other cases. I would be more open to things that at least don't *sound as if* they have me and my history and my family all figured out, sight unseen. And that if I disagree it will only be a reflection on my ability to comprehend, or to face reality. Those things are tricky!
And, kind of a side bar, I wonder if it is really possible to circumvent all consideration of "feelings" here, as you advocate. People have to feel something first about what is being said in order to listen to it, and in general they have to feel something in order to want to change or realize they should change. For example, if someone is very cynical, telling them to grow up and dismiss the attitude will only fall on deaf ears that do not care about anything yet, including their part in things. And when you talk about stopping the perpetuation of coercion and possibly violence, those are actually likely to be some of the main folks you want to reach, and seem to be choosing to try to reach.
Likewise with reaching people who may actually be “holding onto their pain.” If they already feel nothing and may be about ready to check out entirely – or have even concluded that it would be better for everyone if they did just check out – you do need to make them feel something and allow them to process some things with their feelings, to get through to them. Rationalizations and intellectualizations aren’t going to work for someone who at this time truly does not believe improvement is possible anymore. There is no "...or else!" factor to be applied to someone who has given up. And you can feed all that right back into the very purpose of your theories, but it may still be unlikely to get in and create that spark of interest and change that you seek to ignite and build on. At the least, my guess would be that there are certain demographics that couldn't be impacted within your 10 day package, but you may have already taken that into consideration.
But please forget I said that, too much room to take it in all directions when I only mean to address your question about how to convey the message, and wrap it up (I spend way too much time on the Internet and need to stop. On that *I* am a broken record!). So, moving along, I tried to corral the locations of your threads because whether time-worn principles or not, presenting them here could still stir controversy. Many say that there certain types of things that they won’t get involved in in the first place, but for those who may have chosen to participate, I thought it most equitable and beneficial to a cohesive discussion that they be able to read and reference all other responses on that same subject.
If people took the time to reply to a passionate issue, they may be dismayed to later see that the same thing -- or someone else's thoughts that would have been useful to them in building their response -- was posted elsewhere simultaneously. If you were conducting a seminar in which a key aspect was going to be discussion and feedback, you would probably address everyone at once rather than take individual people or segments off into other rooms, and never bring them all back together; to hear each other -- and allow you to hear any consensus that might be helpful to you, but that got diluted by the wide distribution.
Rod, I hope this is the kind of thing you wanted. I hope I haven't stepped out of line with anything here, I truly didn’t mean to. In the field of motivation and coaching in particular, I can see where a practitioner might be especially interested in hearing all suggestions on increasing clarity, and removing any *unintended* messages. And, I do represent one of the "mentalities" you'd want to reach; so I am at the same time no one to comment yet the perfect person to comment!
On the other hand, some of the kind of things I'm saying haven't been addressed previously, so maybe this isn’t what you wanted after all, but asking made me think it was. I assume an occupational hazard here is that you are working with people who usually do NOT already have it right! I am well aware myself that I mess some things up in writing and come across in ways other than those I mean to, and dilute my own points by taking too long to make them, that’s for sure!
Anyway, good luck to you. And me! (But yes yes, I know it's not about luck....!) ;- )
Posted by pegasus on May 11, 2004, at 12:30:57
In reply to Re: correction, thread taking place in 6 locations, posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 11:03:59
I have to agree with a lot of what spoc says, Rod. And, again, I hope that you are open to constructive criticism, and believe that my motivations in writing are to help you communicate more effectively, and to avoid future conflicts on babble. If you don't want to hear a pretty frank critique, please just ignore this post.
I appreciate that you're so concerned about helping people avoid the struggles that you've gone through. And it does sound as though your personal journey has brought you to some conclusions that have been amazingly helpful for you. I'm sure a lot of us could benefit from your insights.
On the other hand, I also feel some resistance to the way you say some things. Often, I just can't follow what you're trying to say, which is a difficulty that seems to be shared by others here.
But more often, I think what puts me off is that I don't perceive a lot of flexibility or openness in your comments. I really appreciate people who present their advice as suggestions, more than as global solutions. Because, really, I think you would agree that no one has *all* of the answers for *everyone*, right? And I also really appreciate a tone of respect for us babblers' inherent intelligence, experiences, discoveries and ability to heal. Maybe it's me, but I often feel a lack of that respect when I read your posts. I think this is similar to spoc's comments about condescension or patronization.
Finally, I believe that the insights that are working so well for you are not necessarily going to be helpful for everyone. I've previously explained my ideas about your child-adult theory perhaps not applying to people who had to grow up too quickly. Many of us have, like you, searched throughout our lives for solutions to our individual problems, sometimes with great success using strategies other than the ones you endorse. It's hard to hear someone insistently and repeatedly presenting a "solution" that doesn't sound helpful to one's own personal situation. Admitting the possibility of your solutions not working for some folks (at least at some stages in their lives) in your writing would probably make it easier to read, at least for me.
Again, I hope this is helpful, and not offensive. It is meant in a spirit of cooperation, and in recognition and appreciation of all that you have contributed to babble.
pegasus
Posted by 64bowtie on May 11, 2004, at 12:58:38
In reply to My 2 cents - to Rod, posted by pegasus on May 11, 2004, at 12:30:57
I want re-read and re-read what you caringly sent to this old, crusty, rusty war-horse...
From the bottom of my "crazy mixed up old fuel pump"(comedian Brother Dave Gardener), Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Rod
Posted by TexasChic on May 11, 2004, at 13:03:12
In reply to Re: Dr Rod, posted by TexasChic on May 10, 2004, at 16:31:54
I hope you haven't been hurt by any of the things said here. Your opinion is valued as much as anyone else's here on Babble. Just keep in mind that if no one cared about you, they wouldn't try to give you advice.
Communicating through email can be such a challenge. Without hearing the tone or seeing the facial expressions of the person writing, it can be so easy to misunderstand.
I've enjoyed talking to you in the past, and feel you have alot to contribute to society. Just wanted to say that.
T
Posted by 64bowtie on May 11, 2004, at 13:10:19
In reply to Re: Dr Rod, posted by TexasChic on May 10, 2004, at 16:31:54
Posted by kid47 on May 11, 2004, at 13:15:57
In reply to Re: correction, thread taking place in 6 locations, posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 11:03:59
My dearest spoc. Serenity now!! You seem so troubled, yet so stoic. Please tell us how you really feel. I apologize in advance for this post, but like you, I have waaay too much unsupervised time on my hands. Although I don't work from my home, I am most certainly in a home. Where in the world is that acerbic, witty, fun loving gal who first mesmerized me with her clever turn of a phrase and roller coaster syntax. I miss her terribly. KK has thrown me over so I am most definitely on the prowl for a new fun playmate. Do you have any interest what so ever in an incredibly rich, handsome, intelligent, artistic, romantic, hunk?. If you find one, could you ask if he has a sister or possibly a mom. My life, sweet spoc, is in your hands. Now that is truly a frightening thought. I am sure you will be gentle.....remember I am the PTSD poster boy...and scare very easily.
Peace, Love, and Happiness
kid
Posted by Dinah on May 11, 2004, at 16:15:04
In reply to Re: correction, thread taking place in 6 locations, posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 11:03:59
Dinah here, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Everyone, please remember the civility guidelines. Even if a poster encourages frankness, and even if the intent is to be helpful, please keep the civility guidelines in mind. I'm pretty sure the civility guidelines are a general rule about what is and isn't allowable on the site, and can't be overridden even with the poster's permission. I'm sure Dr. Bob will correct me here, if I'm wrong. And please do, Dr. Bob.
But until Dr. Bob comes by, please be careful. Here is an excerpt from the civility guidelines of the FAQ referenced above.
"It's fine to give others feedback as long as its constructive. It tends to be more constructive if you put things in terms of what the other person might do better rather than what they did "wrong". And it tends to be more conducive to harmony to talk about how you feel than what someone else did, for example, to use an "I-statement" like "I feel put down by what you said" instead of a "you-statement" like "you're so arrogant". But don't just try to disguise the latter as the former, as in "I feel Dr. Bob has gone overboard". :-)"
As always, posts about posting policies should be directed to Administration.
Thanks.
Posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 21:43:01
In reply to SPOC...Spoc....spoc, posted by kid47 on May 11, 2004, at 13:15:57
Boy, I didn't even know this was going on over here! Forgot to check the "notify me" box, and as you are constantly hearing me say, I try sporadically when I can not to "refresh" the boards so much! Excuse me in advance also if I ever miss something completely that is to me. I think I'm such a perfectionist because of my OCD but I guess some things *can* get by me! Did I tell you I also have ADD?? And APD (Acronym Proliferation Disorder)?? Anyway, Kid, might I say first that for someone who is courting me, you have a strange way of showing it... [ ;- ) ]
---
> My dearest spoc. Serenity now!! You seem so troubled, yet so stoic. ...Where in the world is that acerbic, witty, fun loving gal who first mesmerized me with her clever turn of a phrase and roller coaster syntax. I miss her terribly.-----
*** Oh, still here, never a day or hardly even a moment when both my serious/analytical side as well as my witty cut-up side don't inhabit the same bod! You see, I am the whole package Kid! I can teach a stoic, doctoral-level philosophy class then take off immediately to turn clever phrases in my stand-up comedy act at the club! Well, I *could* if I wanted to, is the point. Or I always did well at both, is the point. Or something like that is the point. Do you like your women diverse or not, pal? ;- )As a matter of fact, before Karen started hitting on me I just hadn't found a silliness mate. So most of anything I posted prior to that was somber and analytical, or kinda just technical site suggestions. A real snooze in other words. And Kid, this here *was* a horse of a different color as far as subject matter, but still, it reflects that somber, analytical mode; not "troubled!" So may I gather from this that your message is mainly that you miss the frolicking at the other thread? I like that better! ;-)
And speaking of the Comedy Corner, it was KK's "turn," but being the typing/obsessing fool that I am, I am fine with the break! It was time for a shower anyway! Presumably we will fall into a pattern of volleying the laughs back and forth, here and there! Unless she got over me -- that couldn't be it could it?? But also, remember, it's hard to hear people laughing from over here! I couldn't even tell if anyone was reading anymore. And, since I already keep *myself* in stitches all the time, if it appears the market has dried up I may use the time to catch up on all those annoying real life obligations that I'm always complaining are squeezing me out of my own living quarters by now! (Actually, I need to do more of that *regardless* of market fluctuations!)
But Kid -- do they call you Kiddo? -- thanks for popping your head in and asking after me! What *is* up with your long-lost KK these days?? Have you figured out the big Secret? ;- )
Yours through the laughter and the tears,
Spoc (the analytical Vulcan with a sense of humor!)
Posted by karen_kay on May 11, 2004, at 22:10:11
In reply to Re: KID..Kid...kid!!! » kid47, posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 21:43:01
so spoc, i see you still want me. i've been playing hard to get and it appears to have worked. you did mention my name 3 times during this post after all. perhaps it was on accident, but i'm sure i know the real reason...
i just want to break this up before anything really happens. you may be interested in kid, i can see the attraction. but, i have to tell you that he's mine. keep your slimey fingers off. (how's that for catty? oh, it can get worse trust me)
so, before i say something completely uncivil and get a block, i'm going to sum up what i want to say....
your blatant flirting with kid must stop now. i can't fault him for flirting, he is male you know. but, you should know better. i called kid the first time we spoke, so you missy better back off before i fix to fight. is there anything here that is ambiguous? i've tried my best not to make it that way, but if you need me to rephrase this in your spoc-like language, i'll be happy to do so.
and don't feel like you're getting picked on, kid's already heard about this mess and promised to retract his advancements first thing in the morning. i told him to do so hatefully, but for some reason i'm sure he'll remain civil. i guess it is rather hard to train them after all.
(oh spoc my dear, i've been watching seinfeld to determine my favorite episode.... but, are you planning on appearing in a woody allen film soon?)
Posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 23:28:51
In reply to 3 name mentions and i'm not involved.. » spoc, posted by karen_kay on May 11, 2004, at 22:10:11
Posted by 64bowtie on May 12, 2004, at 14:00:43
In reply to Re: Hey Rod, posted by TexasChic on May 11, 2004, at 13:03:12
Posted by 64bowtie on May 12, 2004, at 14:11:52
In reply to Re: KID..Kid...kid!!! » kid47, posted by spoc on May 11, 2004, at 21:43:01
APD => (Acronym Proliferation Disorder) ...the very sound of this disorder runs chills up my spine, warning me to run for the hills.....
I must avoid it at all cost... And this is an election year to boot...
lol....Rod
Posted by TexasChic on May 12, 2004, at 14:18:44
In reply to » (((TexasChic))) , no offense taken (nm), posted by 64bowtie on May 12, 2004, at 14:00:43
Cool. Feel free to post to me anytime. You won't convince me that I don't need my meds, :-) but meds don't do everything, and I always appreciate your way of thinking when it comes to inner self improvement.
Posted by spoc on May 12, 2004, at 21:19:58
In reply to »spoc, That's my disorder! Thanx for finding it!, posted by 64bowtie on May 12, 2004, at 14:11:52
Posted by 64bowtie on May 14, 2004, at 14:01:14
In reply to Re: 64Bowtie, posted by TexasChic on May 12, 2004, at 14:18:44
TC, may I call you that?
In my practice there are strata of potential clients:
1. Folks that truly are years away from making sense outta what I suggest and encourage here.
2. Folks that need only therapy and meds, such that anything I suggest and encourage here is appurtenant and impertinent to their functionality.
3. Folks that need only nudges from regular therapy and/or regular meds.
4. Folks that only need a nudge from occasional meds. I put them on hold till they say they are ready for the next step.
5. Folks that are in therapy dealing with a bump in their normally smooth road. I put them on hold till they say they are ready for the next step.
6. Folks who want to solve some lingering issues with information and practical strategies (my clients).
7. Folks who want to expand their personal power and freedom by coaching others (my trainees).
I sincerely believe in the time-compression nature of a meds regimen. If we were not required to work or go to school, maintain a household, maintain relationships, and generally go about the common way of living in treacherous America, we wouldn't need meds to get along. We could go to group as long as we wanted, and as often as we fealt the need. We could read and debate until we got to a level of involvement and understanding that could free us from ourselves and our past. Until this utopia happens, I suppose meds are good to help us keep from stumbling and falling emotionally.
I also sense that what I say here is being seen in an all-or-nothing vein regarding therapy and therapists. This is not a good way to look at what I am saying. Look at what I am saying as encouragement, to not be satisfied by limiting your searches to one and only one solution. Seek out options, because you can. If you don't believe me about seeking options, I intuit that you are missing out on the use of your good talents as an adult. I see it everywhere everyday, because I can, see it. I have studied and trained myself to recognise and bear-witness to many new and exciting things, as well as dysfunction in its many forms.
The "you" statements were offered caringly to you, (((TexasChick))), (((TC))) for short.
Rod
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.