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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 51. Go back in thread:
Posted by Angielala on February 18, 2004, at 14:15:59
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » Tootercat, posted by Karen_kay on February 18, 2004, at 13:09:43
5 alarm clocks STILL don't work for me. If it weren't for my man, I probably would still be late all the time. But now it's because the meds make me sleeeeepyyyy.
I want to nap now.
~lalalalala
> (((Tooter))) I didn't mean to bring up old memories. I'm really very sorry. I didn't eventhink to address the situation as something of concern. I was just thinking of it in terms of my perspective with my boyfriend. He doesn't have any type of emotional concerns (I think you know what I'm saying with that) he just doesn't like to wake up in the morning.
>
> Of course she shouldn't result to the cold water. I meant she should try every trick in the book, such as pulling the ocvers off,e ct.
>
> But, that's IF and ONLY IF there aren't emotional factors contributing to her tardiness... Again, I didn't mean for my post to be somewhat offensive. I jsut meant she should be a bit moer authoritative in pulling her daughter out of bed. Of course, if it's just that her daughter doesn't like mornings....
>
>
> Sorry all if that post sounded offensive...I didn't take into concern the fact that there may be more issues at play than jut general "I don't want to get up" syndrome....
>
> BTW, We have 5 alarm clocks in our room that go off 5 minutes after eachother.. I hate it when my boyfriend gets up before I do, as I have to listen to him hit snooze 3 times on each...
Posted by Elle2021 on February 18, 2004, at 15:42:24
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by Karen_kay on February 18, 2004, at 8:48:36
Back when I was in highschool, I was tardy almost everyday. Due to my OCD, I had so many things I *had* to do (checking, counting, etc.) that I just couldn't be to school on time. My doctor actually thinks it's one of my Borderline traits. I'm consistantly late by 10-15 minutes to appointments with him. Could something be going on with her that no one has realized yet? Can you talk to her and see?
Elle
Posted by Racer on February 18, 2004, at 19:52:47
In reply to Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by fallsfall on February 18, 2004, at 7:16:41
I was late every day. I couldn't get up in the morning. Didn't matter when I went to bed, because I couldn't sleep. My mother, unlike your daughter's mother, really just zoned out about everything going on with me. Oh, well...
From the time my grandfather first got sick, until my grandmother's death several years later, I never slept through a night without the sort of horrific nightmares that keep your eyes wide open all night long. I was depressed, being abused at home and at school, and really, really needed help.
Go ahead, ask me. I know you're dying to ask me. It's OK, you're allowed to ask. I'll even volunteer the information: No, at the time I did not know how to ask for help. No, at that time in my life, there would have been no way for me to tell my mother what was wrong -- because I didn't have any words for it. One counselor I saw once or twice at that time started to bring it out of me back then -- and got transferred to another rotation before we got anywhere. It took that one counselor asking the same question dozens of different ways for me to get to where I could start to try to describe what I was going through. Looking back now, I wish so much that I'd been allowed to stick with her. I could have been saved almost three decades of agony and anguish. The other counselors focussed on my behavior, on my thoughts about why I was doing what I was doing. This one therapist asked, over and over, what I was feeling, what the sense was, the mood.
Now I'm here, long after, going through the same steps with a new therapist. I've got a bigger vocabulary, but still can't describe the feeling, the mood, the atmosphere.
I guess what I'm suggesting is that you get your daughter to a really good adolescent psychologist yesterday. It really does sound as if something's going on, and if you can save her from herself, you'll be her hero for life.
Posted by Racer on February 18, 2004, at 19:58:07
In reply to Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by fallsfall on February 18, 2004, at 7:16:41
By the way, you don't have to worry too much about being nice and being gentle with your daughter. First of all, mothers are like allergens: once you've been exposed to them, you'll always react to them. Your daughter will love you just as much if you do *force* her to allow herself to be helped. She'll also probably appreciate the stability and security that comes from firm boundaries. Plus, we like you, so you are inherently likeable. Therefore, your daughter will have to be a likeable, fairly intelligent teenager. As a consequence of these two facts, she will be intelligent enough to recognise your inherent likeability and like you.
With my former stepkids, they didn't really take to me until the first time I ever lost my temper with them. I raised my voice in the car, as they were hitting one another over the seat fighting about whose turn it was to sit in front, just hollered "QUIT!" Four very round eyes on me, and two little boys in my lap the second we got home, snuggling and purring.
Best good wishes for you, and I hope it turns out well for both of you.
Posted by All Done on February 18, 2004, at 21:21:16
In reply to Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by fallsfall on February 18, 2004, at 7:16:41
I must say I'm feeling quite a need to apologize to my mom and dad for the years they put up with my difficult mornings...
I still have a problem, though. The only thing that has changed me some was having my son. He has been the only effective alarm clock I've known.
I thought I had read or heard something a while ago about teenagers needing more sleep than adults. I don't know where I saw it, but I did find this article http://www.drgreene.com/21_555.html (I hope this link works). Maybe she's just being a "normal" teenager.
Sorry it's so frustrating for you, though. But you sound like a great mom and someday your daughter will realize how very lucky she is to have you.
Just for you, fallsfall, I'll set my alarm for a few minutes earlier tomorrow!
Posted by fallsfall on February 18, 2004, at 22:19:13
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » fallsfall, posted by All Done on February 18, 2004, at 21:21:16
What a lot of great information.
I didn't get to read any of this until 11PM. I really have to go to bed (MY alarm goes off at 6:35...). I will answer each of you tomorrow.
Thanks for giving me so much to think about!
Falls
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:12:25
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by Karen_kay on February 18, 2004, at 8:48:36
My stepson (age 33) is living with his dad, and mentioned that his method of getting her out of bed is to tip her mattress. That sounded really attractive - except he's a lot bigger and stronger than I am, and at my house she has a waterbed.
I sang an annoying song for many years... *I* enjoyed it.
I agree that she HAS to learn to get to things on time. That is one of those life lessons that a parent must teach.
Thanks!
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:27:42
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by Tootercat on February 18, 2004, at 10:29:35
Your kind of perspective was exactly what I was hoping to get.
She was in 5th grade when I moved out. The separation (we're not divorced because my husband doesn't want to be and I really don't care) has been reasonably civil. My 3 children (she was 10, her brother was 13, her sister was 15) could choose where they would be (on a daily basis if they wanted). I moved to an apartment in the same school district so they could go to school from either house. I now live 3 doors down from my husband's house - so they can walk back and forth whenever they want. All 3 kids decided that they wanted to "live" only at one house. The older two stayed with their dad. The youngest stayed with me. They each have dinner a couple of times a week with the "non-custodial" parent, and taxi service to activities is shared, etc. This was how the kids decided to do the "custody" thing (I still have mixed feelings about "making" them make the decision - but 2 really were old enough, and it was clear that things would be very ugly if I protested).
Youngest did spend 6 months living at her dad's a year ago, and then came back to my house. So, I have to believe that she does feel that she has that option.
What are her feelings on the separation? She wants us back together, of course. It might be worth trying to have a new conversation about this - it has probably been a while since I've gotten her take on it. I need to remember to try to listen to her rather than defend my decision.
Passive-aggressive. Ah. Yes. Her father is a master at Passive-aggression. I've seen a bit in myself recently, too (which I have been fighting against). So she does have good role models for this... We have talked about it (when I saw that I was doing it, I explained to her what I was doing and called it "Passive-aggression"). I hadn't quite thought of the tardiness in that light, but it makes a lot of sense.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:36:58
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school, posted by Angielala on February 18, 2004, at 11:26:28
Angielala,
You bring up a couple of good points.
Anxiety. She has always been a kid who threw up a LOT. (Every other week whether she needed to or not). I drive her to school because she gets "bus sick". We've decided that if she only throws up once, that it is "normal" for her - and she can go on with her day. If she throws up more than once, she has a bug. She dropped out of Nursery School when she was 3 because she couldn't let her parent (either one) leave her. She did fine when she was 4 (same school). She doesn't *talk* a lot about anxiety, but I could ask...
Sometimes she has had insomnia problems. She's not talking about that now, but (again) I should probably ask.
She was supposed to have general bloodwork done last year, but she doesn't like needles and I didn't press it. Sounds like we should do it right away. I hadn't thought of Thyroid, but that certainly could be a factor (and is treatable, too!).
Sometimes I feel like she is "trying" to get out of bed. Sometimes I feel like she is too tired from the rest of her life and it's hard for her to get up. Sometimes I feel like she's doing it just to aggravate me.
Thanks for the ideas!
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:42:58
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » Tootercat, posted by Karen_kay on February 18, 2004, at 13:09:43
Karen,
"Not being morning people" DOES run in our family (both parents and all 3 kids). Her sister had a real issue with being tardy which was resolved in Middle School when I made her walk to school once (1 1/2 miles) when she missed the bus. The same technique didn't work on Youngest, though.
I think that the "Not being morning people" tendency has influenced me to see this as a question of willpower - which it may still be. The causes that other people mentioned are worth researching, though - because if you add those to "NBMP" syndrome it would be pretty hard to get out of bed!
I've found that if I get too aggressive with her in the morning that she dissolves into tears and moves even slower.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 9:06:20
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:42:58
One other thing that I found that works for my boyfriend is to sit with him on the bed, rub his head and hand him a coke and lit cigarette (as that's the first thing he goes for in the morning)... Maybe some type of gentle talking with her in the morning along with bribery may do the trick..
Of course, don't neglect the fact that certain emotional issues may be coming into play, but I think the best method for both my boyfriend and me is the one I just mentioned...
Hope that helps some... :)
Sending good "morning" thoughts your way, to both you and your daughter :)
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:16:38
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school..Fallsfall, posted by antigua on February 18, 2004, at 13:50:58
Antigua,
Sounds like we should make sure that they don’t get together – they’d never get up!
>
>I've talked to him about this a lot. He's a good student so I can't jump on his grades. I told him that I loved him too much to keep yelling at him to get out of bed in the morning and that it was his responsibility. He told me he doesn't even start to think about getting out of bed until he has been yelled at three times. So now I start telling him it's time to get up that much earlier. Once I even changed his clock in the night--he was angry, but he got my point. It is up to him to get up. If he's late, it's his responsibility to deal w/the school. If he flunks a subject, oh well, it's his fault. I told him I would help him in any way that I can, but it's up to him. So, we run on his time in the morning.
>
She does well in school, too. I find that I resent it if I have to get up extra early just so I can “wake” her up. She does have an alarm. And I do have depression – and it is at least as hard for me to get out of bed as it is for her to. This resentment thing probably doesn’t help much. I don’t mind waking her up – I do mind forcing myself to get out of bed and then having her stay in bed for an extra 30 minutes and then being late.She did deal with the school last year. Until the Vice-Principal talked to my husband. My interpretation of that conversation was that the VP told my husband that it was OUR responsibility to get her to school on time (and that if we didn’t do that we weren’t doing our job as parents). This is the kind of directive that my issues don't allow me to ignore.
Last year, first semester she had French first period. She likes French, but hated the teacher. It was such an issue that halfway through the year we switched her French class to a better teacher – this put Math first, instead (she likes math). She would have lost credit for math because of her combined tardies to both French (1st Sem) and Math (2nd Sem). She could have gone on to the next Math class, she just wouldn’t have the credit (which isn’t that big a deal, because she’ll have plenty to graduate). This year she had a study first period for 1st semester. So, at least I didn’t have to freak so much about her missing class. Now she has English, and if she doesn’t get credit for this (it will only be based on 2nd sem tardies because the class is a semester class) she WILL have to take another English course (and she doesn’t like English much). I’m a little hesitant to “arrange” her schedule next year, because I think that she really does need to learn to be on time, and she's pretty well proven that she'll be late no matter what class is first period.
>
>Would bribery work w/your daughter? If she makes it to school on time five days in a row, she gets XX? Or something like that?She does seem to want to have a party every Friday night with some out of town friends. But I’m unstable enough so that I hesitate to promise something like that and then end up feeling awful myself and unable to deal with the party.
>>
> If everything else fails, maybe she should see a counselor? Maybe she is angry about something and this is her way of expressing it? Maybe the two of you could talk to someone together and develop a plan that works for both of you?
>She saw a counselor in 4th grade for an evaluation (because of the throwing up tendency that I mentioned previously). The bottom line was that she does have some issues, but the counselor thought that the stigma (both with peers and with herself) of being in therapy would be worse than the problems that she had.
She was diagnosed with Depression a couple of years ago by her doctor. But she adamantly refused to accept the diagnosis. She wanted no part of meds and no part of therapy. It was near the end of the school year, and the doctor didn’t want to force anything. She was doing better the next fall.
I was diagnosed with Severe Depression 9 years ago (she was only 6) – I’ve only been able to work 2 out of the last 9 years. I’m sure that the thought of depression and therapy scares her to death. And she may not think that meds and therapy have done much for me – I’m still not working, I’m still depressed. What she probably doesn’t understand is how much worse I’d be without them.
> It's no fun to have to be the nagging mother. I hate it, but I think it comes w/the territory. My son knows that he has a lot of independence compared to some kids, and he knows that if he abuses my very limited number of rules, he will lose some of it (like deciding when to go to bed). Going to school is his job, not mine.
>
>But that's just my kid. He's definitely an independent one.The reason I’m so strict (and early) about her bedtime is that she doesn’t get up on time – so this is one place where she has “abused my rule”. Plus, *I* need to go to bed – if I go to bed first I’m afraid that she’ll talk on the phone/online all night and never get up.
I think that you have helped me see that I have a number of personal issues invested in this conflict (I need to be seen as a “good” mother, needing to get myself up and resenting it when SHE gets more sleep, my depression affects my parenting and her view of depression/therapy, I need to go to bed). Thank you. This is helpful.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:21:08
In reply to Could it be?---Fallsfall, posted by Elle2021 on February 18, 2004, at 15:42:24
I haven't seen any OCD tendencies. She can be out of the house 20 minutes after she gets out of bed. I think the problem is physically getting out of bed. I moaned about her time in the bathroom because she doesn't understand that maybe being on time is more important that putting makeup on. So if she procrastinates too long in getting up, that she should be on time but with no makeup, instead of beautifully tardy.
I'll ask her what she does after she gets out of bed (I also may recommend that she remove all reading material from her bathroom...)
Thanks for another new perspective.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:36:39
In reply to Sounds like me, too, so here's my story » fallsfall, posted by Racer on February 18, 2004, at 19:52:47
Racer,
Thanks for your story. I'm sorry it was so hard for you. You said that you didn't know how to ask for help. Did you know that you *needed* help? The counselors you saw - they were outside of school? What prompted your parent to take you to a counselor? Did you want to go?
When my daughter's doctor talked about depression a couple of years ago she was SOOOOO adamant about NO meds and NO therapy. She was in SUCH denial - she was *NOT* depressed (even though her own report nailed most of the depression symptoms). I would like to see her in therapy - I think there are enough things in her life (that I *know* of) to warrant it - the throwing up, tardiness, separation of parents, mother with depression, plus she's a teenager... Her dad is not a big therapy fan (he blames my therapist for my leaving him). Her brother was in therapy for 6 months or so to work on bedwetting (he finally stopped around age 16. She is starting to have occasional nights when she doesn't wet - but the practicalities of bedwetting is easier with her, it isn't a big deal. Obviously we have some bedwetting genes in the family...) - that was OK until the therapist started to talk about separation stuff, and then my son wanted no part of it.
I don't know how to get her into therapy. I'd love some ideas on this.
Thank you for your concern.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:43:22
In reply to PS » fallsfall, posted by Racer on February 18, 2004, at 19:58:07
You are very sweet, Racer.
I know she loves me, and I know that she listens to everything I say (even though she is pretending to ignore me).
I have always believed in consistency. It lets kids always *know* what will be happening - and then if they don't mind the consequences they can choose to do the crime. I, personally, have a hard time with inconsistency. But. It is very hard for me to be consistent these days. On my good days, I enforce the rules that I think are important, but on my bad days (which are probably more frequent than my "good" days) I just don't have the emotional strength to get into the battle. I feel really badly about this, but if I push too hard when I'm depressed then she won't have me at all because I'll be in the hospital.
Thanks for the encouragement - it helps when people remind me that she's a good kid and she does love me.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:51:03
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » fallsfall, posted by All Done on February 18, 2004, at 21:21:16
Thanks AllDone - that was a good article.
She certainly does fit the "normal" teenage pattern. She knows she needs a lot of sleep (I think that SHE thinks she needs 10 hours a night). She has complained that she doesn't fall asleep if she goes to bed earlier. The 10PM bedtime is sort of a compromise - to get enough sleep, not go to bed much before she can fall asleep, and get her in bed so I can go to bed.
I'll check with her on how long it is taking her to fall asleep. I haven't asked that in a while.
Thanks for your support!
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:54:42
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » fallsfall, posted by Karen_kay on February 19, 2004, at 9:06:20
I brought her Sudafed and Tylenol when I woke her up this morning. I have tried to chat with her, but she tells me to go away. No way am I giving her a Pepsi (she won't drink Coke) or a cigarette (thank goodness she doesn't smoke)!!!!!
Because of her throwing up tendencies, she doesn't eat breakfast (or even drink anything before going to school).
Thanks for helping!
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 10:00:13
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » Karen_kay, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:54:42
She was ready to leave only 2 minutes after I wanted to leave. She would have been on time this morning!!!!!
But...
As we were driving out of the neighborhood, there was a girl on the side of the road trying to put her backpack together. My daughter said that she goes to the high school - she had seen her talking to another kid my daughter knows. So we stopped and offered her a ride. Daughter mentioned the mutual friend (so she wouldn't think she was being picked up by complete strangers...). Turns out she just moved into the neighborhood and was very grateful for the ride to school.
So they were 2 minutes late for school today. I thought that was fine.
(and I did tell her a couple of times (trying to be subtle) that I was pleased with how she got ready today. And then I probably blew it because I reminded her that she needs to get a report from the school on the number of absences/tardies she has so we know exactly where she stands. Sigh)
Posted by Angielala on February 19, 2004, at 12:33:54
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » Angielala, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:36:58
Girls at that age who have more anxiety than normal (normal being all those crazy hormones running around in her) makes life really confusing... you don't know why you feel the way you do, and you really never want to tell anyone because it just sounds crazy, like an excuse. I know if I had math first period, I would have had a lot more anxiety (but that's because I'm a mathtard)
I really hope she pulls threw- you are having just as much anxiety as her and I hope you both can relax a bit more and hopefully she'll start to see the (morning) light :)
> Angielala,
>
> You bring up a couple of good points.
>
> Anxiety. She has always been a kid who threw up a LOT. (Every other week whether she needed to or not). I drive her to school because she gets "bus sick". We've decided that if she only throws up once, that it is "normal" for her - and she can go on with her day. If she throws up more than once, she has a bug. She dropped out of Nursery School when she was 3 because she couldn't let her parent (either one) leave her. She did fine when she was 4 (same school). She doesn't *talk* a lot about anxiety, but I could ask...
>
> Sometimes she has had insomnia problems. She's not talking about that now, but (again) I should probably ask.
>
> She was supposed to have general bloodwork done last year, but she doesn't like needles and I didn't press it. Sounds like we should do it right away. I hadn't thought of Thyroid, but that certainly could be a factor (and is treatable, too!).
>
> Sometimes I feel like she is "trying" to get out of bed. Sometimes I feel like she is too tired from the rest of her life and it's hard for her to get up. Sometimes I feel like she's doing it just to aggravate me.
>
> Thanks for the ideas!
Posted by Racer on February 19, 2004, at 14:18:41
In reply to Re: Sounds like me, too, so here's my story » Racer, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:36:39
Right now, I've just crash landed and am feeling unsure about my ability to survive, so I don't have the energy to go into it until later. I've got a lot to say, am totally unsure any of it will be useful to you, and am also unsure that I want to post it all here. If you're interested in a private rant about it, you're welcome to email me at babbler39 at excite dot com, otherwise I'll post it here later.
Right now, I'm going to nap. If I'm lucky, I will wake up around dinner time, so that I can eat and go to bed.
Naw, it's just temporary, but it's still rough. THanks for your concern, and I know it can get better than this. Type atcha later.
Posted by Racer on February 19, 2004, at 19:13:51
In reply to Re: Sounds like me, too, so here's my story » Racer, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 9:36:39
After a pretty good marathon of a nap, here are a few things I thought of regarding your daughter.
First of all, this is all coming just from my memories of my own problems, so take it for what it's worth. Did I know I needed help? Yes, and no. I certainly knew I needed something, but I couldn't express what -- not even to myself, so it wasn't conscious deception on my part. On the other hand, it had been drilled into me so well that it was dangerous to express any need of any kind, that it made it difficult to accept any offers of help, let alone ask for help. Does that make sense? I was taught so well that I had to be able to have all the answers for myself, without any help, that it felt like punishment to fail in that. Accepting offered help was failure, so it would have been a very tough sell.
Now, on the hopeful side, there were two ways to get inside me then: I was perfectly willing to talk to just about anyone, unless it got "too scary," and I was in a great deal of pain, so it wasn't that hard for me to try to find comfort from others. The too scary part is why you need a really good therapist for an adolescent, because if anyone had approached me more directly, I would have drawn back. The one good counselor I saw in those days was gentle in her probing, and while I knew she was often frustrated with me, she kept trying by talking about more neutral topics in between her little digging expeditions. Looking back, she almost got to it with me, which is a little heartbreaking now.
Now for some of your questions:
My mother believed in therapy, so when the school "strongly recommended" that she hie me off to a counselor, she was receptive. These days, Child Protective Services would almost certainly have been involved in all this, by the way. In fact, my "symptoms" were a classical textbook example of sexual abuse that I'm pretty sure someone would have reported it as more than a diffuse problem. Anyway, the problem with therapy for me was the setting in which it took place. I may as well tell you about that, since it explains a bit more about what happened.
Langely Porter Psychiatric Institute, in San Francisco, had family counseling service in those days that saw each family member once per week, then all together once per week. Same therapist for all, and that therapist changed every three months. Do I need to go on? (I'll only say that the end of any hope of help there came with a very traditional East Indian counselor whose only "therapy" for me was to tell me that I was "wicked" for continuing to disobey my mother and cause her so much pain.)
Now, based only on myself, here are a couple of suggestions focussed on something other than ancient history.
First, have you tried approaching the issue of therapy from a "not about her depression" angle? Something like, "You know, dear, I'm feeling as if you're taking the brunt of my depression, and as if, since I can't give you your full share of attention and support, I should get you involved in a support network, for help with things you may not be learning in school, like Time Management, Study Skills, etc. It would make me feel a lot better, and relieve some of my anxiety about you if you'd consider it." Some way of saying, "Look, Kiddo, you're not me, and you're not like me, but the you-who-isn't-like-me might need some kind of support you're not getting right now. Whaddaya say?" Or, depending on your daughter and your relationship with her, you could just say, "Look, I know that you and your father think that my therapy caused the separation, but it didn't. I want you to experience therapy, just to prove that to you. Will you try it for, say, two months?"
Second, after watching you go through depression -- which is a Serious Mental Illness and therefore sensitive enough to begin with -- that word itself is probably so loaded she can't hear anything said afterwards. Try talking in terms of symptoms, not dx. Things like, "Hey, Sunshine, you look a little upset today. Is there anything you'd like to talk about?" Focus on the behavior -- how she experiences it, not on any sort of why -- and let her find her own way to the dx.
Kids is hard. My ex-bf's son suffers from depression, and he went through a really, really rough time a few years ago. (Shortly after I left his father and moved four hours from the community where we lived.) He came down to stay with me, over a Thanksgiving weekend, and we ended up spending much of Thanksgiving Day sitting on a sofa stored in my mother's garage, with the garage door open on a busy street, because he was sitting there helping me find something else stored in that garage when the dam finally burst. He was in his late teens by then, and just fell into my lap crying his little heart out, just the way he used to curl up in my lap when he was little. It was the first time he'd talked to anyone at all about any of it, and it all came out at once.
If your daughter isn't receptive when you talk to her, by the way, don't overlook the possibility that there's another adult out there whom she will listen to. It is not unfair for you to go to a teacher she trusts, a sports coach, a librarian, whoever it is, and say, "Please, help my daughter." That's not deception, it is good parenting. My Sonshine wouldn't have been with me that weekend and I wouldn't have known to look for signs of impending communications if his father hadn't called and asked me to give it a try. (Then again, that young man carries a big piece of my heart with him every moment of his life, and I think he knows it. I like to think that I'd have seen through his mask, and been aware of his pain anyway. Sorry, fallsfall, he is The Best Kid Ever In The Entire World. %-D )
Best luck with your kidlet, and if there's anything I can tell you that might help, ask it. I'll tell you this: today I'm barely functional at all, and I've made myself type all this in hopes it can help you and your daughter. Anything at all I can offer you to help, is yours. Children are too precious to risk not trying, and I hope this works out well for you and yours.
Posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 19:46:16
In reply to OK, here's a short start for you » fallsfall, posted by Racer on February 19, 2004, at 19:13:51
Racer,
Thank you SOOOO much for being so thoughtful in your response. I think you have some really good points.
First:
> Langely Porter Psychiatric Institute, in San Francisco, had family counseling service in those days that saw each family member once per week, then all together once per week. Same therapist for all, and that therapist changed every three months. Do I need to go on? (I'll only say that the end of any hope of help there came with a very traditional East Indian counselor whose only "therapy" for me was to tell me that I was "wicked" for continuing to disobey my mother and cause her so much pain.)
>
I am trying to envision a worse set up than this, but I am really having a hard time doing that. First, your only therapist had no committment to YOU - only to the family. That had to be really hard for trust. Second, THREE MONTHS? Give me a break! I stayed with my first therapist 8 1/2 years. I can't imagine starting over and over and over. Third, the end of your hope - All that I can say is that this hits a nerve with me, and I am so, so sorry that you had to go through that.> First, have you tried approaching the issue of therapy from a "not about her depression" angle? Something like, "You know, dear, I'm feeling as if you're taking the brunt of my depression, and as if, since I can't give you your full share of attention and support, I should get you involved in a support network, for help with things you may not be learning in school, like Time Management, Study Skills, etc. It would make me feel a lot better, and relieve some of my anxiety about you if you'd consider it." Some way of saying, "Look, Kiddo, you're not me, and you're not like me, but the you-who-isn't-like-me might need some kind of support you're not getting right now. Whaddaya say?"
This is a really promising angle. Everytime I make a decision she doesn't like she blames it on my depression (what she doesn't understand, is that the more depressed I am, the more lenient I am, the more she LIKES it...). She just might (accurately) buy that she deserves some help because I'm causing her problems. Let me think how to work this in.
>Or, depending on your daughter and your relationship with her, you could just say, "Look, I know that you and your father think that my therapy caused the separation, but it didn't. I want you to experience therapy, just to prove that to you. Will you try it for, say, two months?"
This one will not fly. She did a 4 session evaluation when she was in 4th grade. The therapist started to get a little closer to some uncomfortable stuff and then decided that it would be more harmful for her to be in therapy at that time than helpful. I thought that therapist (who has moved, of course) was exceptionally wonderful. My daughter didn't want to keep going. I don't know if SHE blames my old therapist for the separation. She will NOT "try" therapy for me, or for her doctor - she made that pretty plain.
>
> Second, after watching you go through depression -- which is a Serious Mental Illness and therefore sensitive enough to begin with -- that word itself is probably so loaded she can't hear anything said afterwards. Try talking in terms of symptoms, not dx. Things like, "Hey, Sunshine, you look a little upset today. Is there anything you'd like to talk about?" Focus on the behavior -- how she experiences it, not on any sort of why -- and let her find her own way to the dx.The only thing I've said about depression since her doctor's appointment of denial was the next time she saw that doctor I confirmed to him (in front of her) that I wasn't concerned about her having depression any longer. That things seemed OK in that regard. But this IS a good point. Whatever issues she might have need to be clearly different from my issues.
>
> Kids is hard. My ex-bf's son suffers from depression, and he went through a really, really rough time a few years ago. (Shortly after I left his father and moved four hours from the community where we lived.) He came down to stay with me, over a Thanksgiving weekend, and we ended up spending much of Thanksgiving Day sitting on a sofa stored in my mother's garage, with the garage door open on a busy street, because he was sitting there helping me find something else stored in that garage when the dam finally burst. He was in his late teens by then, and just fell into my lap crying his little heart out, just the way he used to curl up in my lap when he was little. It was the first time he'd talked to anyone at all about any of it, and it all came out at once.What a wonderful Step-mom. What a lucky kid.
>
> If your daughter isn't receptive when you talk to her, by the way, don't overlook the possibility that there's another adult out there whom she will listen to. It is not unfair for you to go to a teacher she trusts, a sports coach, a librarian, whoever it is, and say, "Please, help my daughter." That's not deception, it is good parenting. My Sonshine wouldn't have been with me that weekend and I wouldn't have known to look for signs of impending communications if his father hadn't called and asked me to give it a try. (Then again, that young man carries a big piece of my heart with him every moment of his life, and I think he knows it. I like to think that I'd have seen through his mask, and been aware of his pain anyway. Sorry, fallsfall, he is The Best Kid Ever In The Entire World. %-D )Good reminder. When I was worried about the depression thing I did go talk to the guidance counselor at her school (who was also concerned about her). I don't hesitate to do end runs. Her adult supports are a little different now than they were then. I'm now quite sure what I would say to them, though. That I will need to think about.
>
> Best luck with your kidlet, and if there's anything I can tell you that might help, ask it. I'll tell you this: today I'm barely functional at all, and I've made myself type all this in hopes it can help you and your daughter. Anything at all I can offer you to help, is yours. Children are too precious to risk not trying, and I hope this works out well for you and yours.You are so sweet, Racer. Thank you again for your wisdom and insight - particularly on such a hard day. My email is babble fallsfall (a hotmail account).
I'll have to think about this a little to find the best approach. Thanks for all the ideas.
Posted by Ilene on February 21, 2004, at 9:40:59
In reply to Re: Teenager late (AGAIN) for school » Angielala, posted by fallsfall on February 19, 2004, at 8:36:58
> She was supposed to have general bloodwork done last year, but she doesn't like needles and I didn't press it. Sounds like we should do it right away. I hadn't thought of Thyroid, but that certainly could be a factor (and is treatable, too!).
>I have bad veins and avoided bloodwork for years unless I was very sick. Then I discovered butterfly needles. Ask the phlebotomist for one. They are very thin, so it can take a long time to get enough blood, but they *don't hurt*. (They hurt a little bit, but it's probably what a normal person feels.) I used to feel like such a wuss for avoiding blood tests, but now it's not a problem.
I.
Posted by fallsfall on February 22, 2004, at 12:01:47
In reply to Hint for blood work » fallsfall, posted by Ilene on February 21, 2004, at 9:40:59
Thanks for the tip - They use butterfly needles on me every time, and you are right, it makes a big difference.
My veins are so small that the Red Cross told me not to bother coming in to give blood. They have to use the big needles (the little ones chop up the platelets?). They either can't get it in my vein, or I clot halfway through, or it takes so long that they give up (and throw away the 1/2 pint that I gave!).
Posted by Racer on February 22, 2004, at 15:15:01
In reply to Re: Hint for blood work » Ilene, posted by fallsfall on February 22, 2004, at 12:01:47
Butterflies don't work all that well for blood donation, but they are great for normal blood draws.
As for the donation side, if you're really interested in pursuing it, you might want to see if your blood bank has an RN or a really well qualified phlegbotomist to assess your veins. I can give regular blood draws from either arm, but on my left arm -- the one they always want to use -- I can't donate blood. (This also means they have to use the one-arm machine for apheresis, of course.) It's not clotting that stops the blood, though: it's a valve in the vein that flops over the end of the needle if it's put in at the usual spot. The valves in your veins keep the blood from moving backwards in the vein, sort of like a series of canals or locks on waterways. After too many donations, or some other sort of trauma to the circulatory system in an area, the valves can get a little flaccid. Changing the location of the needle site can make all the difference in the world. My little valvular problem is probably a combination of lots of blood donations and a cut-down IV when I was little. The valve in question is right where the cut-down was done.
Doh! The reason I say a really good RN can assess your veins is that you can feel the valve through the skin if there are any problems. Not everyone is experienced or sensitive enough to feel it, but a good RN can usually figure out where the problem is, an alternate site to insert the needle, or whether your veins really aren't suitable for donation.
Donating blood is literally giving life to someone else. It's the most supportive thing you can ever do in your life to save a stranger's life. Whether you ever know it or not, you're making life possible for someone, making the world a better place, saving doctors some of the stress they face in their lives, and really and truly making a difference -- all for nothing more than a half hour of your time. If you can donate, I encourage it strongly.
(Not that I've got any opinions about it, you see.)
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