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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 8 Miles on December 28, 2003, at 18:04:23
Anyway, was just thinking, what if we were able to take like a "month off" from our everyday life?
I mean, no worry about a job,taking care of a home, fearing things, feeling sick....a trip away from all those things that drive us. Just gone! How much of our "problems" are situational to a time and a place and the feeling of being lost in this abyss?
We generally associate being hospitalized with great fear, because we fell trapped, and fear we may never get out. Do we not feel that very same thing in our little worlds we find ourselves in? Now, some might say "I'd miss my family too much!" I say you would appreciate them more, and cherish them more deeply (even if they can be a pain in the butt). Others might say "I'm too used to my routine, I'd be worse off if I got out of it". I would submit to you that maybe it's that life routine that is causing many of your fears and anxiety. We only "like" the routines, because they provide some order to a world of chaos. It's why so many of us wallow around in our own crap rather than making a change, because at least we "know" our crap, and are afraid of change. A known evil is better than an unknown one. Others might say "What would I do? I'd be bored". I posit that you might never know boredom again. A strange curiosity that many of us have is "What would the world be like w/o me, what if I had never been born"? Again, I believe that would be more of a gift than any of us could ever imagine. You think you are nothing, that you don't matter? How differently we might see things. Unfortanely, I'm sorry, none of us will really ever see what that's like, but I suppose most of us, like George Bailey, would see we really had a wonderful life. Go away for 30 days, and actually LIVE (not exist)for the next 30 years. Hmmmmmm..........where shall we meet?
8
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 28, 2003, at 18:37:58
In reply to Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 28, 2003, at 18:04:23
i dont feel trapped or stuck in a rut.
what i want is to be able to do...
it hard to focus ,concentrate or care about the things that are important..
will taking them away make it better?
going away from them will hurt ..i will lose their trust and destroy their safty..
i am not willing to indulge in such a "break"
perhaps one day...when i have nothing to lose..
j
Posted by octopusprime on December 28, 2003, at 19:59:06
In reply to Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 28, 2003, at 18:04:23
8 miles, what a lovely thought. if only it were that simple!
i would love to go away for a month again, maybe i would do it differently this time ... just stay in one place ... or not move quite so much ... i would love to go to europe, maybe it's time to start saving ...
when i left for the left coast, i took a 28 day road trip with a friend of mine. we drove 14000 km in 28 days across canada.
you don't get to leave all your worries behind - almost every night we wondered where we would sleep, and finding a place to sleep is always a bit of a hassle. having a home means having your pillow already set up for you. there is real value to this, never underestimate the value of having a home.
of course, i didn't go home at the end of the trip. i relocated in a new place. so sure, all my problems from my old place were gone temporarily, but once i overcame the new set of challenges of living in a new place, the old problems came back.
wherever i go, there i am!
but it was invaluable: it taught me which of my problems are situational, and which ones can be solved geographically. and some problems are permanent and more intractible.
i guess i'm figuring out who i am, and how to find the energy to change. change is hard. 30 days out of water can change your perspective, but not necessarily your life. one or two years later, the essence of you returns. i'm now convinced that there are no temporary solutions to more permanent problems.
Posted by Medusa on December 29, 2003, at 0:25:34
In reply to Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 28, 2003, at 18:04:23
Are you suggesting a trip, or hospitalization, or any form of time off?
I've done both, and I'm going to hold your suggestion up to a brutal test: the time after.
In all but the most extreme cases, both of your proposed solutions (as I understand them) involve contact with other people. And one tends to have set relating styles, and if they caused problems in regular life, they'll cause problems with new people in new places. (Lower stress makes struggles less pronounced, but the patterns remain.)
And when you manage complete solitude, just you and the bears, it doesn't do much to raise the skill levels one needs in mundane life. Solitude is a balm for many ailments, but when it doesn't improve the day-to-day functioning in life that follows, it wasn't the cure.
Posted by 8 Miles on December 29, 2003, at 19:11:29
In reply to Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 28, 2003, at 18:04:23
Oh, I guess it was just some nihilistic-escapist pondering. But in one sense, I really DO wonder how I would feel if I took an extended walkabout.
8
Posted by zenhussy on December 29, 2003, at 22:22:37
In reply to Re: Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 29, 2003, at 19:11:29
>Oh, I guess it was just some nihilistic-escapist pondering. But in one sense, I really DO wonder how I would feel if I took an extended walkabout.
>88,
Your pondering has an eerie quality to it that is somehow hitting me funny. Are you considering taking off in some fashion? You don't have to answer of course but I worry.
Is there anything that people here can do to help?
I don't really know what to say other than sometimes the scariest thing to do can be to reach out for assistance and counseling. I'd like to believe that you have someone in your life who can listen to whatever it is that has you thinking of going on a 'walkabout'.
If not then many here are quite adept at listening/reading to the inner turmoil that our diseases can bring about.
I wish you peace 8 Miles. Take care.
zenhussy
Posted by 8 Miles on December 30, 2003, at 19:23:21
In reply to Re: Catharsis Anyone? » 8 Miles, posted by zenhussy on December 29, 2003, at 22:22:37
Thank you Zen,
I don't really have any plans on bolting. I couldn't do that to my young daughter (8). Yes, sometimes I do wonder what it would be like not to have to worry about all the crap that drives me every day. I have a lot of obsessive-compulsive charactersitics, therefore, the "chaos" in my life is actually in an order and fashion I can understand. Unfortunately, I am also very pessimistic, as I can generally fairly accurately tell you what's going to happen in the near future based upon events and circumstances that somehow produce for me a logical outcome. These are times I wish I was NOT right about. Is it fatalism? Just depression? I really don't know. Thanks for expressing your concern for me. I am not one to act rashly (actually, I OVERTHINK most things by trying to play out all the possible outcomes in my mind). OK, I'm OK. Check with you later. Have a safe an happy New Years, and try NOT to be alone this time!E
I
G
H
T
Posted by zenhussy on January 2, 2004, at 16:42:25
In reply to Re: Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 30, 2003, at 19:23:21
= (
sinking
zh
Posted by fallsfall on January 2, 2004, at 18:24:44
In reply to Re: Catharsis Anyone? » 8 Miles, posted by zenhussy on January 2, 2004, at 16:42:25
Zenhussy,
Are you saying that you are sinking? What is wrong, how can we help?
Posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 9:59:51
In reply to Re: Zen? » zenhussy, posted by fallsfall on January 2, 2004, at 18:24:44
> Zenhussy,
>
> Are you saying that you are sinking? What is wrong, how can we help?I'm going to go lie down for about a year or so. Perhaps that will help how I'm doing...which is sinking.
zh
Posted by mair on January 3, 2004, at 11:43:41
In reply to Re: Zen? » fallsfall, posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 9:59:51
Hey are you still having some bad drug side effects? Any chance the drug stuff is contributing to your feeling that you're sinking?Please give us and update.
Thinking of you......
Mair
Posted by shar on January 3, 2004, at 12:44:05
In reply to Re: Zen? » fallsfall, posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 9:59:51
Well, laying down couldn't hurt. If you ARE sinking, the question is (as always among us here): how low?
Even a little sink is no fun, a dip usually makes every day dark, sliding into the pit results in different things for different folks but often a feeling of hopelessness, exhaustion, paralysis, apathy. And, when a visit to the pit gets extended, it can lead to suicidal ideation or not wanting to go on because it's so painful and there is no medication that seems to make a difference.
So, I guess I'm wondering (in the fondest way) how low has it gone?
And, this reminds me of the Eskimos/Inuit people who have like 100 words for "snow" and how we at PB have so many descriptive words for being down and getting more down. Words that most of the populace would not understand nor have a clue about.
Take care, wherever you are, and bathe yourself (if you can) in the knowledge that you are important to so many people. You. Plain old you. You are important. You are important to many people. You. You are loved. Hmph! Go figure!!
Iz true.
xoxo
Shar
Posted by fallsfall on January 3, 2004, at 14:20:03
In reply to Re: Zen? » fallsfall, posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 9:59:51
That was so fast! You have been doing very well (at least that's how it has looked from here).
Ice Cream. Ice Cream. Ice Cream.
Should I pull up that old post with all the suggestions (and you did most of them!!!)?
Did something happen? Have you talked to your pdoc? your therapist?
If you can manage to slow the decline and not go so low, it is easier to get back out. Now is the time to fight!
Let me know (here or email) how I can help.
(((((ZenHussy)))))
Posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 21:05:11
In reply to Re: Zen? » zenhussy, posted by mair on January 3, 2004, at 11:43:41
>Hey are you still having some bad drug side effects? Any chance the drug stuff is contributing to your feeling that you're sinking?Please give us and update.
Thinking of you......
MairMair,
I'm sure the ongoing side effects are taking their toll on me. I didn't appreciate being told to 'ride it out' by the pdoc earlier in the week. It isn't as if they are the ones dropping everything or swinging their limbs into door frames or becoming more stupid by the day. They aren't having difficulty typing or spelling or speaking. Conversations with people are trying.
I guess I keep at this dose until I either go batty or feel more level and then get to move up again! Wheeeeeee. I swear this better living through chemistry thing is pushing the limits of my patience.
On the plus...for sinking and feeling so low I'm functioning in little bits here and there so I give an appearance of being 'okay'....anyway today I began coaching for the special olympics. So far I think it is just one weekend morning each week until tournament time (I have a LOT of reading to do next week when I recieve the official handbook and rules).
So I'm not curled up in a ball crying or catatonic like I have been before. I am crying a bunch but I'm worried about a friend and it hurts when someone you care deeply about is having a rough go of things. I get odd things done like digging a trench out and away from the drain pipe that drains the back yard. It was a fun half hour out in the pouring cold rain but necessary so that the back yard didn't flood any more than it already had. Have visited with my brother a few times in the past weeks which is nice as he is usually busy.
I feel disconnected as I type this. I'm doing 'things' but I'm not really into them so to speak. Does that make sense? Maybe the lamotrigine is making me apathetic like the ssris did. Dunno. And frankly not caring too much about it. Har.
I feel low and pained inside. Maybe the trauma stuff is close to the surface and that has me feeling defeated. I can't really explain the contradiction between how I feel and expressing that to others and what they report back to me about what they see and hear. Two entirely different things. I'm a bit freaked by that.
Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts. I'm hoping you are nicely wound down from the holidays and not beating yourself up too much over work things (hint hint---be nice to yourself hon).
Can this be the update for Shar and Fallsfall too? Sorry to tag y'all on to the end of my response to Mair but the reality of me typing out two more posts? Ain't gonna happen.
Thank you for thoughts. I'm not in the dark dark pit but the pit is throwing out search ropes that are occasionally dragging me close to jumping right back in. Maybe it is the meds? Most likely the meds and current work of therapy.
all I can come up with for now.
zh
Posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 22:35:06
In reply to Re: Catharsis Anyone?, posted by 8 Miles on December 30, 2003, at 19:23:21
Posted by mair on January 3, 2004, at 23:03:30
In reply to Re: my life feels like a big bad drug side effect » mair, posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 21:05:11
i think I know some what you're talking about. Years ago I remember this book written by a spy entitled "I led two lives." I think this could describe lots of people with mood disorders. I've been struck on many occasions by the difference between my internal mood and external presentation. Sometimes I think that we expend too much energy trying to look and sound ok - with the result being that our internal resources become pretty depleted AND that our sense of isolation increases.
Don't underestimate the effects of this drug - chances are it is a huge contributor to how rotten you feel right now. I got in a similar bind with serzone a few years ago. Alot of what you're describing hit me. Ultimately I and my pdoc concluded that it wasn't a good drug for me, but while I was still taking it, I discovered that taking it at night instead of during the day, minimized alot of the most bothersome side effects. Maybe there is some adjustment your pdoc could make to ease some of what you're experiencing.
It sucks big time that you have to go through this without knowing that this drug will work for you in the end.
Mair
Posted by fallsfall on January 4, 2004, at 10:10:34
In reply to Re: my life feels like a big bad drug side effect » mair, posted by zenhussy on January 3, 2004, at 21:05:11
Hang in there, Zen.
Call up that little boy and go down to the beach with him. Maybe bring ice cream sundaes with you.
Peace and patience and be good to yourself.
Posted by zenhussy on January 5, 2004, at 10:37:17
In reply to Re: Zen? » zenhussy, posted by shar on January 3, 2004, at 12:44:05
>Well, laying down couldn't hurt. If you ARE sinking, the question is (as always among us here): how low?
Internally low but externally faded.>Even a little sink is no fun, a dip usually makes every day dark, sliding into the pit results in different things for different folks but often a feeling of hopelessness, exhaustion, paralysis, apathy. And, when a visit to the pit gets extended, it can lead to suicidal ideation or not wanting to go on because it's so painful and there is no medication that seems to make a difference.
Ten years mostly wrestling this beast has left me without much hope when I'm tired of being me. Ya know?
>So, I guess I'm wondering (in the fondest way) how low has it gone?I'm not going to check out like I had thought so brilliantly back in October (it was months off...sheesh! people caring and the like...oh so bothersome). I think meds are doing the largest number on mood lately with this newest stabilizer. Yeah, I'm real stable. (note scathing sarcasm)
>And, this reminds me of the Eskimos/Inuit people who have like 100 words for "snow" and how we at PB have so many descriptive words for being down and getting more down. Words that most of the populace would not understand nor have a clue about.
My Inuit is rusty but I do know of about 34 to 40 different molecular compositions of snow that contribute to avalanches and how well snow will pack together to build a quince or igloo. Proof that a month in the snow will teach you anything to stay warm!
>Take care, wherever you are, and bathe yourself (if you can) in the knowledge that you are important to so many people. You. Plain old you. You are important. You are important to many people. You. You are loved. Hmph! Go figure!!
>Iz true.
>xoxo
>SharOh now stop. Youse gittin on me nerves wit all dis rap about me loved and stuff. Argh!
A most sincere thank you. Thank you very much Shar.
-zh
Posted by zenhussy on January 5, 2004, at 10:44:23
In reply to Re: Zen? » zenhussy, posted by fallsfall on January 3, 2004, at 14:20:03
>That was so fast! You have been doing very well (at least that's how it has looked from here).
There's part of that dichotomous feedback and internal sense of how I'm doing. Strange.
>Ice Cream. Ice Cream. Ice Cream.No appetite, no appetite, no appetite.
>Should I pull up that old post with all the suggestions (and you did most of them!!!)?Um........(long pause)
>Did something happen? Have you talked to your pdoc? your therapist?I see therapist twice this week. Will talk to pdoc next Monday unless I totally wig out between now and then.
>If you can manage to slow the decline and not go so low, it is easier to get back out. Now is the time to fight!Trying. Taking the strange meds and trying to tolerate the bizarre effects they are having on my mind and soul. Ugh.
>Let me know (here or email) how I can help.
>(((((ZenHussy)))))You just helped. Thank you
>Hang in there, Zen.
Yep. I am.
>Call up that little boy and go down to the beach with him. Maybe bring ice cream sundaes with you.
Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Ice on my windows. Mother Ocean has been real busy with the storms and the runoff now. She's been chewing up my favourite beaches to nothing. They'll be back March or so....
>Peace and patience and be good to yourself.
Peace be will you Fallsfall. Let us both be good to ourselves.
--zh
Posted by zenhussy on January 5, 2004, at 10:49:59
In reply to Re: my life feels like a big bad drug side effect » zenhussy, posted by mair on January 3, 2004, at 23:03:30
>i think I know some what you're talking about. Years ago I remember this book written by a spy entitled "I led two lives." I think this could describe lots of people with mood disorders. I've been struck on many occasions by the difference between my internal mood and external presentation. Sometimes I think that we expend too much energy trying to look and sound ok - with the result being that our internal resources become pretty depleted AND that our sense of isolation increases.
Um, yeah. I would love to read that book. I've mostly given up the outer appearance for others (or so I've thought). Maybe I'm not aware of what is going on. A large possibility considering the extent of the dissociation I've employed over the years.
> Don't underestimate the effects of this drug - chances are it is a huge contributor to how rotten you feel right now. I got in a similar bind with serzone a few years ago. Alot of what you're describing hit me. Ultimately I and my pdoc concluded that it wasn't a good drug for me, but while I was still taking it, I discovered that taking it at night instead of during the day, minimized alot of the most bothersome side effects. Maybe there is some adjustment your pdoc could make to ease some of what you're experiencing.I took care of the daytime power nap by switching to nighttime. Pdoc suggests I ride out this dose to see if I level out and then we(WE?!! Like this is a 'we' thing? Oh that's rich!) can go up to next level. Sigh.
>It sucks big time that you have to go through this without knowing that this drug will work for you in the end.
>MairYou said it Mair. It DOES suck big time not knowing and having to give this such a long trial if I can live through it!
Thank you for words of encouragement. Every little bit helps.
zh
P.S. Are you taking care of you? I hope so.
Posted by mair on January 6, 2004, at 7:29:03
In reply to Re: my life feels like a big bad drug side effect » mair, posted by zenhussy on January 5, 2004, at 10:49:59
Zen
There is an article in this last Sunday's New York Times Magazine written by a psychiatrist who had to start taking ADs. It's just a one page account on the last page of the magazine if you can get it. Anyway, it's pretty much of a hoot because this woman started having some severe side effects to Wellbutrin, I think, and she talks alot about how "shocked" she was that the side effects were so awful. She pretty much admits that she had always told patients to bear with the side effects without ever really realizing that the side effects might be unbearable and that some of these drugs might really be toxic for some people. She of course went through the same crap the rest of us go through any time we start a new drug - the "do I stick with this because the side effects might abate" conundrum.
Best wishes for a better day
Mair
Posted by mair on January 6, 2004, at 7:50:25
In reply to Re: my life feels like a big bad drug side effect » mair, posted by zenhussy on January 5, 2004, at 10:49:59
A couple of year's ago I had to switch pdoc's because mine retired. I had seen him for several years and through numerous drug trials. The letter which he wrote to the new doc accompanying my records contained a summary of his 4 year's or so of treating me. He more than implied that I baled out on several drugs prematurely because I didn't like the side effects, totally forgetting that he took me off a couple of them because they did absolutely no good! Anyway, I was pretty much determined to prove him wrong and when I started taking and reacting to serzone, I probably waited much too long to let my pdoc know what a rough time I was having with it because I wanted to prove I wasn't the stubborn wimp my previous doc seemed to think I was. I really only ever contacted her because my therapist started getting very concerned about how suicidal I was starting to sound and she (my therapist) hounded me so much about calling my pdoc.
Anyway, don't feel reticent about letting your pdoc know about the side effects - it sounds like you're pretty good about this already - tons better than I was.
Mair
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