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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 13:14:27
I'm given to understand that benzos are widely & cheaply available in Mexico, whether OTC or via easy scripts, not sure which. I'm curious about what effect this wide availability has on their society. I wish a competent researcher who's fluent in Spanish would go to Mexico and look into this.
A part of me would be uneasy about having cheap OTC benzos in America (not that there's any real likelihood of that), because we'd be a "tranq'ed out nation". What bothers me is that I perceive that many people WOULD feel the need for them in such a scenario. America ain't Sweden, or even France. Stress and anxiety or here to stay in the USA. The American people are incredibly compliant to being abused; they won't do anything about it. They seem to be determined to preserve the status quo, even though generally it does not serve them well.
It's interesting that Andrew Solomon, the author of the bestselling The Noonday Demon: An Atlas of Depression, is good looking, articulate, talented, still young, seems to have the benefit of a solid support network of friends, family, and lovers (when he wants), and apparently comes from a fairly wealthy background. Ostensively, he has no "reason(s)" to be depressed. Of course, it doesn't work that way. Sometimes, the eponymous Demon doesn't need an invitation to crash your party.
Solomon confides to the reader that he hoards a stash of barbituates that he somehow finagled in a quantity sufficent to be fatal should he take them all (he also owns a pistol). They're put away for possible use in case he feels like he can't go on. He finds the possession of this option to be comforting. I understand where he's coming from. Shrinks will tell you that you should be afraid to have pills or a gun around, that you might do something rash. Well, that's shrinks for you. Sometimes they just don't seem to get it.
Speaking for myself, I'm glad I own a pistol. That's not a suicide threat, folks, just a statement. You wish you could get rid o' me that easy :-)
I know this is gonna sound hopelessly cynical, but ya know what? If EVERY American had a Solomonic doomsday pill stash, I can practically guarantee you that our quality of life would improve dramatically. You see, the wealthy elites who control this country (with the complaisance of a spineless citizenry) can't exploit you if you're dead!
I don't know what my IQ is, and I don't want to know. I'm as smart as I am, and, simultaneously, I'm as dumb as I am. I don't want to "psych" myself with that information. It's interesting to note that John F. Kennedy had an IQ of 119; not bad, but hardly stratospheric. And yet he had everyone convinced he was brilliant. George W. Bush is probably about in that league. I know he trips over his tongue, but that's just a peccadillo of his. He's quite a savvy politican (unfortunately). Dumb, he ain't. What he IS, is incredibly shallow and arrogant.
I would estimate the IQ of the average shrink to be around 85, except of course for Dr. Bob, whose genius is simply beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals :-)
I would estimate the IQ of my saintly M.D. to be around 150. Him, I can learn from. And I do.
Posted by mair on November 12, 2003, at 16:19:21
In reply to Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 13:14:27
I guess I beg to disagree. I don't own a gun and I'm pretty sure that if I ever bought one, my therapist and/or pdoc would escort me to the nearest hospital pretty quickly. My suicidal thoughts are impulses, and not well reasoned. I can identify closely with someone who commits suicide impulsively, but not with someone who does so with alot of advance planning. I've always thought that shooting myself was the only fail safe method, so I view my lack of a gun as a barrier (or safety net) against suicide. Buying a gun would be removing a barrier and would make me feel so much more at risk.
Mair
Posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 16:41:11
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by mair on November 12, 2003, at 16:19:21
Well, Mair, I wouldn't want you offing yourself, either. Needless to say, impulsive suicide is often an undiluted tradgedy, especially among the young >25 or so. You may not be able to relate to it, but well ruminated suicides do occur, it's symtomatic of the human condition. Solomon and I are old enough so that impulsive suicide is unlikely. That impulsive suicide occurs less frequently among people who are well into adulthood is speculation on my part, but I suspect it's true. Anyway, pay no heed to my blathering, get Solomon's book, he's far more articulate in explaining that particular perspective on suicide than I could ever be. It's not only an informative book, it's highly readable and entertaining. While I'm at it, I also recommend A General Theory of Love, by Thomas Lewis, et al. It's also a masterpiece. See www.theoryoflove.com
Posted by Tabitha on November 12, 2003, at 21:38:16
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 16:41:11
you are a fresh breeze blowing through the dusty corridors of PSB. Sadly, I fear Dr Bob will find some reason to PBC or block you the moment he returns.
On the topic at hand-- I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that a stashed suicide method would actually improve our mood? I remember that bit from noonday demon and I thought he just meant depression was so bad and frequent, he needed the stash to offset the fear of it. An escape door.
Are you romancing suicide? Arguing it's noble to kill oneself because we are mere spineless citizenry in a country run by wealthy elites? If that's the case, I'd have to say balderdash.
Posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 22:44:26
In reply to Re: Dear Mr Destroyo, posted by Tabitha on November 12, 2003, at 21:38:16
I stand corrected. I'm pretty articulate, but I ain't perfect; I could have made that clearer. What I meant to say was that, if an easy, clean, blood n' brainless suicide method was available, that certain powers-that-be might be forced unto the expediency of throwing to the common man a proverbial bone, in the form of a more equitable distribution of wealth, greater job security, universal heathcare, etc., so that they could keep us plebes alive and continue to exploit us. In other words, it'd throw a serious monkey (money?) wrench into the works if us wage slaves started offing ourselves. Who'd stock the shelves at Wal-Mart? Come to think of it, who'd buy all their crap in the first place if all us clock-punchers opted for the big dirt nap? Thanks for your very kind compliment, Tabitha. I don't know anything about Dr. Bob, only that I like the concept of his site(s) and the opportunity it gives people like us to interact. As far as I could tell, "Social Babble" is simply a forum for friendship and sharing of no particular structure. All modesty aside, I know that I offer something special, an exotic flavor in the world of plain vanilla, and that I have never been rude to anyone, or used foul language, and that I am guilty only of constructing sentences that are waaaaay too long, and use far to many commas, for which crime I should be put to death, by the most painful means possible, as a prelude to my soul burning in Hell everlasting. I think that most people probably understood what I was getting at with the comment in question, and for the record, I'm not glorifying suicide. I'm sure Dr. Bob will find no reason to ban me. If he does, I request that he not use any of my posts in his projected book. Without me, it's unlikely anybody'll buy the durn thing, anyway :-)
Posted by Tabitha on November 12, 2003, at 23:34:03
In reply to Re: Dear Mr Destroyo, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 22:44:26
Ok I get you-- I think. You were teasing about suicide as sort of a last-ditch labor-dispute resolution tactic, in a black humor sort of way. Is that sort of close? Regardless-- I meant to extend an affectionate welcome to you, but it probably didn't come off quite right.
And that comment about Bob.. well let me try to explain. Remember One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? The free-speaking free-spirit comes in, livens things up for a bit, then runs afoul of TPTB and ends up lobotomized. For some reason.. I was getting a little McMurphy vibe here. Call me cynical, but it seems everyone with strong opinions and flamboyant language gets smacked down eventually. That's all. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it. My perspective may be a bit twisted lately. I do enjoy your posts and hope you remain.
Posted by Destroyo on November 13, 2003, at 0:46:09
In reply to Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 13:14:27
Hey, Tabitha, don't worry about expressing your perspective regarding "strong opinions" and "flamboyant language". This isn't the only chat room in the world. If I'm not welcomed here, I'll just be a ramblin' on. At 44 minutes past the witchin' hour, I'm two sheets to the wind, but I'm still more than a match for most insipidly dull humanoid drones. Not here, mind you. I love the denizens of Dr. Bob; but wherever shall I wander, prayest thou not for me, prayest for the drones. For should any of said hollow, vapid quasi-corporeal spectres wax insolent on me, I'll treat them to a dose of The Destroyo Factor. RE: my speculation regarding the effect of the possession by the American citizenry of Solomonic doomsday pill caches, that IS the blackest of humor, and certainly does not reflect the way that I would prefer for the American citizenry to be stirred from their servile complaisance. Having said that, I honestly believe that it is quite literally true, that an increased propensity to suicide facilitated by easy access to such a method, would quite possibly stir radical and mostly positive changes in our corrupt society, despite the inevitable suicidal tradgedies.
Posted by mair on November 13, 2003, at 7:29:10
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 13, 2003, at 0:46:09
"Having said that, I honestly believe that it is quite literally true, that an increased propensity to suicide facilitated by easy access to such a method, would quite possibly stir radical and mostly positive changes in our corrupt society, despite the inevitable suicidal tradgedies."
Don't you think this is a bit attenuated? If those of us with lousy jobs and mental illnesses, don't more frequently "off" ourselves, then why do you think it would happen in greater numbers with people with lousy jobs and no mental illnesses, all just because suicide became more easily attainable and painless? Do you think large numbers of people with guns don't commit suicide because it's messy? I mean it certainly is pretty foolproof, and god knows, we do seem to love our guns in the US. In fact I think Solomon quotes some statistics which indicate that suicide is much more prevalent in households with guns than those without and I'm sure it isn't just those impulsive adolescents grabbing for them either.
Maybe Impulsive suicides (a type recognized by Solomon) is primarily the perview of the young. I don't think you can generalize too much however. I am not an adolescent; I am the mother of adolescents. I know I'm quite a bit older than Solomon and I'd lay good odds that I'm quite a bit older than you. I still believe most of us are courting trouble if we make the means and methodology of suicide readily available.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2003, at 8:37:21
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 13, 2003, at 0:46:09
I hate to be a wet blanket, and I remember how utterly distressed I was to learn that my own failsafe suicide plan had been survived. However, I know personally of two failed suicides by gun. So I don't think it's accurate to call that method foolproof. My own cousin attempted to kill himself with a shotgun. He ended up relatively fine, but locked up in a state hospital for quite some time. A churchmember attempted suicide with a handgun. His case turned out much worse.
Moreover, since Americans own guns more than just about any citizenry on earth and yet aren't killing themselves in droves, I suspect there must be something more to the equation. And since even citizenries who appear to own even more guns and certainly live in even worse circumstances than Americans don't appear to be using their weaponry for self-slaughter, I think that easy access to suicide is not a prescription for the result you are seeking. Are Americans under stress? Certainly. Are they the most stressed denizens of this planet? I seriously doubt it. Do people in poverty stricken and war torn areas, many without the freedoms we take for granted, even those areas with easy access to munitions, show their displeasure through killing themselves? It doesn't appear to be the case. There simply must be more to the equation, however little I see it sometimes.
I also suspect that the majority of the citizenry of America would object to being classified as complaisant, servile, and spineless.
And at the further risk of being considered a drone, I might remind everyone that while the civility guidelines probibit the encouragement of suicide, it also prohibits joking about suicide. It's a sensitive subject to many on this site, so perhaps you can forgive Dr. Bob (and myself if necessary) for his lack of humor on the subject.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2003, at 8:38:39
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2003, at 8:37:21
And while I'm sure there are logical flaws in my post here and there, please take into account the fact that I had two hours sleep last night, and consider the message in its entirety.
Posted by stjames on November 13, 2003, at 13:15:57
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2003, at 8:37:21
I agree with Dinah, also many adults turn
impulsive after too many drinks.
Posted by Destroyo on November 13, 2003, at 20:19:36
In reply to Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 13:14:27
I think that just thinking out loud sometimes can increase knowledge. The interaction with others can produce results that a person thinking alone, by himself, couldn't achieve. If one is into polemics, you must painstakingly anticipate all of your potential opponents' arguments. This can be rather constipating to the development of creative solutions to intrasigent problems. Don't take me too seriously (I certainly don't). As a practical matter, I think that offing yourself with a gun is somewhat more difficult to will the nerve to do than swallowing pills. The incredible sudden violence of a bullet temporally concentrates the fear of death into a terrifying black hole. With pills or opiates, you just go to sleep and never wake up, and the drugs take the edge off the fear before you slide beneath the waves. I'm not facilitating suicide by pointing this out, most people who've considered suicide (I have) will naturally compare the methods they have avaiable to those they wish they had available. Surely most people would choose pills over a gun, but's it's a taboo subject. We tell people that suicide is not an option, but people aren't stupid. They know that it IS an option, and perhaps by lying to people who are pondering non-impulsive suicide that it isn't an option, we lose credibility. It's our humanitarian duty to play (not devil's but) "angel's advocate" to the person contemplating suicide, to try to talk them out of it. If you start right off by telling them "suicide is never an option", then all credibility is lost. This is heresy. So what? I want fewer people to commit suicide. It's paradoxical, but if drugs were legal (in 20 plus years we might eventually give up on the war on drugs) and people could take that handful of pills, go to sleep and never wake up, as I said, it might lead to changes that would help ameliorate the causative factors in people's lives that lead to suicide. In others words, facilitating suicide might actually reduce its incidence. If I could provide EVERYBODY with a Solomonic Doomsday Pill Stash, would I consider it? Well, I would certainly at least consider threatening to do so (only to those over 30). Admittedly, I have not studied the circumstances of people who commit suicide. I'm assuming that people do it because they perceive that their lives are lousy. Solomon, by all accounts had a pretty good life, still, he was depressed, and contemplated suicide. Myself, my life is pretty crappy, I don't like to get into details, but most people would agree that I live
a somewhat circumscribed and frustrating and painful life. That's why I ruminate on suicide sometimes. But I may be overgeneralizing from my own experience. Society seems bent on trying to prevent suicides one by one, one at a time. If we shifted the focus to preventing suicide as an a societal ill, rather than an individual one, by generally improving the quality of people's lives, the goal of minimizing the incidence of suicide might more readily be acheived.
Posted by madwand on November 14, 2003, at 21:42:00
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 13, 2003, at 20:19:36
Hello Destroyo,
A belated "welcome" to the board -- you certainly bring a different perspective to things! (I am relatively new here myself).
For the record, I don't believe you are "advocating" suicide per se and hopefully it will not be construed as such. However, I believe that the approach to it which you describe is really antithetical to depression and hopefully I will be able to convey why.
As an aside, perhaps my outlook here is a bit "off", since I am prone to depression but for some reason have never felt "suicidal" per se (even in the "low" phases). In fact my relationship with death is rather peculiar (although that subject is best reserved for another post).
Anyway, I see suicide due to depression as an ultimate admission of defeat. The pain has become too much -- you are licked. However, what you seem to be describing is something different -- an assertion to the universe that the decision as to whether to continue existing (at least in this form) is *yours* and yours alone. And the paradox is that, thus empowered, you will probably never have to actually end your life! It is as if by reserving wholly to yourself the choice to die you affirm your choice to live -- something akin to the Jungian integration of the shadow.
An interesting example (which unfortunately did result in the person's demise, but it helps to illustrate the "energy" I talking about) comes from an episode in a book I read a while back. The person in question had her weapon drawn as the enemy entered the room. She fought valiantly but was completely outnumbered. Finally the leader of the enemy had her backed up against the window and said, "It's over -- I will kill you now!". She calmly replied, "No, you won't", and jumped out the window (to her death).
Are most of us likely to face a scenario like that? Probably not. But consider the difference in outlook of what one would do if it became clear that depression was "going to win". One could know that in that case one would "give up" and be defeated. Or, one could know that in the face of that final defeat one would, like woman in the story above, be victorious -- *choosing* one's death bravely rather than "accepting" it. And from that space of empowerment depression does not have to win at all -- you essentially grasp the power of death itself by the hilt and turned it to your own defense!
Hopefully I have not gone too far afield from what you had in mind (but perhaps we are both engaged in the synergistic "thinking out loud" that you refer to further down thread). And do I hope you stick around (even if your reaction is that I am completely full of it <g>).Michael
Posted by Destroyo on November 14, 2003, at 22:07:20
In reply to Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 13:14:27
You're TERRIFIC, Michael! Thanks for your enlightening perspective. Do me a favor, don't go to med/shrink school; stay a brilliant "civilian". I'd be a tradgedy if your IQ were reduced to "around 85" :-)
Posted by Destroyo on November 14, 2003, at 22:31:19
In reply to Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon, posted by Destroyo on November 12, 2003, at 13:14:27
I try a little too hard (obviously) to stretch the limits of the charred ruin of my alcoholic, schizophrenic brain. But we have to choose, right?
None of us can hit the nail right on the head, as it were. If you met me, you'd be struck by my thick southern accent; it'd take you a while to realize, that unlike people who are ostensively better educated, that I almost never use bad grammar; except as a deliberate stylistic affectation. I guess I suffer from "Hillbilly Guilt Syndrome", somewhere in the most primitive part of my brain stem, I know that I really deserve nothing better than to be pushin' a plow in some hardscrabble Tennessee cornfield.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 16, 2003, at 11:47:42
In reply to Re: Los Benzos in Mexico and Andrew Solomon » Destroyo, posted by madwand on November 14, 2003, at 21:42:00
> it'd throw a serious monkey (money?) wrench into the works if us wage slaves started offing ourselves.
> an increased propensity to suicide ... would quite possibly stir radical and mostly positive changes in our corrupt society
> if drugs were legal ... and people could take that handful of pills, go to sleep and never wake up, as I said, it might lead to changes that would help ameliorate the causative factors in people's lives that lead to suicide.
>
> Destroyo> one could know that in the face of that final defeat one would, like woman in the story above, be victorious
>
> madwandPlease don't suggest that others harm themselves to change society or to feel victorious. Thanks,
Bob
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