![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by femlite on October 12, 2003, at 21:02:13
Im still really embarassed about the other post. About being wasted. sorry all
Im really loosing hope of finding a pdoc any where let alone in my area who can help. Im on the third one and this new treatment just doesnt make any sense to me.
The last pdoc put me on WB xl. And a small sonata scrip she begrudgingly gave me to sleep. I call to have it refilled befor the week end hit and ended up in a shouting match with receptionsist.Next pdoc, I was told he was a little more creative and might at least consider the the WB was inducing mania. He mumbled something about it, the scprit pen began to fly, and in my hads were 2 benzodiazpines and lithium prescription. That was yesterday.
I cant figur out what he wants me to do. I think he wants me to just stop the WB. I suggested that might mess me up a bit to jsut drop it , he assured me I would be okay , "it was all in my head"
Realizing my consternation and the sounds of "work, work, I have to work" assaulting his hears, he capitualted "cut the WB in half".
Yesterday evening I came home took the Lorazepam 1 mg and Lithium 450 mg he gave me, along with the Neurontin 300mg, before bed and figured I could skip the 10 mg of Ambien he gave me for sleep. No problem sleeping
Today, I try to play it safe I take 1/2 the WB xl, And because Ive been a little jumpy and overley excited all morn (my family calls it screaming at them :) so I take the Ativan. 9am
little speech slurring durring the day but no problem .
I took another Ativan. 2-3pm I was okay for a while, Im not sure when it really hit.
I tried to watch tv, and even though I was so unsteady I felt like doing something, and a drink suddenly sounded real good. I opened it, took one sip, and realized I was too far down the road alreadly.
I came in here to chat and check my mail, and i could not si up.
I managed to type the sos. I laid on the floor waiting to see if someone was around, it got so bad, I fell asleep on the kitchen floor.So this is Lorazepam? Is it suppose to make you feel stoned?
What is he thinking? ( the pdoc) Im manic and taking Wellbutrin but bezos arent a long term solution. He gave me lithium, which might help but I dont know how long that will take.
I seem to remember saying that i was very cynical about the reallity of ADs helping any one about 6 months ago on this very sight. I got a lot aof flack for that. The jury is still out on ADs but the pdocs are guilty as h**l.
I t would be great if someone on this sight could keep up with changes iv been through. I realize that is too much to expect. And While Iv recived alot of support here, today I feel like theres little hope of even finding a diagnosis.
Posted by yabba on October 12, 2003, at 21:29:28
In reply to Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by femlite on October 12, 2003, at 21:02:13
Have you posted your story? If you haven't, and/or you'd like to share it, maybe someone can give you some advice.
Posted by fallsfall on October 12, 2003, at 23:29:30
In reply to Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by femlite on October 12, 2003, at 21:02:13
Ativan is a tranqualizer. Yes, it will make you very slow. Are you taking 1mg or .5mg pills? Everyone is different, but I take .5mg to sleep if I've had a terrible day, and 1mg to sleep if I'm really going nuts.
The lithium doesn't kick in immediately. It will keep your moods from going up and down.
If I think that I'm not quite getting what my pdoc is saying I ask him to write down exactly how much of what I'm supposed to take when. That has been really helpful sometimes....
I think they'll move this thread to PsychoBabble - it's the meds board. People there should be able to give you more details.
Posted by femlite on October 13, 2003, at 14:34:36
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese » femlite, posted by fallsfall on October 12, 2003, at 23:29:30
> Ativan is a tranqualizer. Yes, it will make you very slow. Are you taking 1mg or .5mg pills? Everyone is different, but I take .5mg to sleep if I've had a terrible day, and 1mg to sleep if I'm really going nuts.
Thanks for replying (really :) Im feeling pretty lonely right now)
Ive been hanging around PB and researching the internet long enough to know what benzos are.Im not sure why Ive been prescribed them if im BP?My real dilema is not just medicinal. Im suffering from a very specific delusion and have found no help thus far.
My deslusion goes something like this. I go to a pdoc.
I explain my dilema,they ask questions. After DISCUSSION, the doctor makes a prognosis, may be tentative, but a specific dx. The pdoc EXPLAINS dx. I respond with my own questions and perhaps disagreements or corrections to pdocs perception of my case. Pdoc respectfully considers my imput, and proceeds to explain treatment plan. Meds. are prescribed and EXPLAINED. I am ALLOWED to ask about specific medications WITHOUT being percieved as a drug seeker. example, "why ativan instead of klonopin? Do I really need this? Can this be taken as needed or do I need to take for long period to be effective? What is desired effect? What are poteintial side effects?" The pdoc patiently answers all my questions, and asks me to call him if I think of more. Or perhaps email his office with my questions and a nurse will get back to me.
At follow up visit pdoc asks how I think it is going. Listens to my answer. Encourages me about side effects. Asks me if I feel value is worth side effects and so on .....
WHAT A FANTASY eh?
At least for me
>
> The lithium doesn't kick in immediately. It will keep your moods from going up and down.Thanks for letting me know. This is the only med the last pdoc prescribed that made sense.
>
> If I think that I'm not quite getting what my pdoc is saying I ask him to write down exactly how much of what I'm supposed to take when. That has been really helpful sometimes....I havent even been allowed to ask questions, once my alloted time is UP. I feel literally shoved out the door, or they walk out.
>
> I think they'll move this thread to PsychoBabble - it's the meds board. People there should be able to give you more details.Ive posted there,
It means alot to me that youve tried to help
Thank you
sorry if Im ranting. Im pretty fed up right now
Posted by femlite on October 13, 2003, at 14:37:36
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by yabba on October 12, 2003, at 21:29:28
Thanks for asking. I have many times. I m really to discourged right now to try.
Thank you any way
No need to worry, okay?> Have you posted your story? If you haven't, and/or you'd like to share it, maybe someone can give you some advice.
Posted by DharmaMama on October 13, 2003, at 14:54:17
In reply to Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by femlite on October 12, 2003, at 21:02:13
Mama, do not be embarrassed. I have been in your shoes before. I am sure many of us have been. I so much know how you feel about not being able to find a pdoc. I have not been able to find one. I recently checked out of a hospital from being I guess you wld say overwhelmed/depressed and my assigned pdoc was supposed to find me continued therapy. Well it is two months after I checked out and I have yet to find a doc. I have looked myself. I also narrowed the list for him with doctors on my plan and he still has not gotten back to me. They will not even diagnosed me. They just want to throw me on meds to see which one works. Seems as though no one wants to talk anymore. I am getting frustrated on top of dealing with being sick.
I noticed you said riding lessons and mentioned horses.
Keep your chin up.
Posted by DharmaMama on October 13, 2003, at 14:56:27
In reply to Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by femlite on October 12, 2003, at 21:02:13
Mama, do not be embarrassed. I have been in your shoes before. I am sure many of us have been. I so much know how you feel about not being able to find a pdoc. I have not been able to find one. I recently checked out of a hospital from being I guess you wld say overwhelmed/depressed and my assigned pdoc was supposed to find me continued therapy. Well it is two months after I checked out and I have yet to find a doc. I have looked myself. I also narrowed the list for him with doctors on my plan and he still has not gotten back to me. They will not even diagnosed me. They just want to throw me on meds to see which one works. Seems as though no one wants to talk anymore. I am getting frustrated on top of dealing with being sick.
I noticed you said riding lessons and mentioned horses.
Keep your chin up.
Posted by femlite on October 13, 2003, at 15:48:25
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by DharmaMama on October 13, 2003, at 14:56:27
bless you for the encouragement
Ive just decided with the drawer full of meds I have I can just do as well as the pdocs (put you on meds and see if it works) until I figure out what to do next. Thank you for the affirmation. Its amazing how much knowing your not alone helps. Im really sorry for you and for any one who is on their own and going through this nonsense.
I suffer so much but Im good at keeping it locked up inside. Which is so bad for me but its allowed me to appear normal long enough find a good husband and raise two sweeties. (when I hit mid life the floor kinda dropped out from under me) When the docs make me feel sooooo crazy, I have my kids my kitties, horses and hubby to come home to.Yes we have horses. We usually have a few but were down to one. They are great therapy. My kids also take lessons.
Like I said If they wont dx me, I figure I can do as good for now. After 3 docs the word bipolar finally came up. Ive kinda suspected it all along
I think the rub is that BPs are too much trouble and matainence.Iv even been sent by one doc to another for a dx and still no results.
With the meds I have at the moment,I think I can manage, but like you Im just so discouraged and disgusted and I feel used, they got their paycheck and i got a drawer full of meds, and what i really need is some answers, even one answer would do!
I dont know if i can help you any, but my door is always open.I really dont want meds thrown at me. But hey, two can play this game right?
Thanks for the good words> Mama, do not be embarrassed. I have been in your shoes before. I am sure many of us have been. I so much know how you feel about not being able to find a pdoc. I have not been able to find one. I recently checked out of a hospital from being I guess you wld say overwhelmed/depressed and my assigned pdoc was supposed to find me continued therapy. Well it is two months after I checked out and I have yet to find a doc. I have looked myself. I also narrowed the list for him with doctors on my plan and he still has not gotten back to me. They will not even diagnosed me. They just want to throw me on meds to see which one works. Seems as though no one wants to talk anymore. I am getting frustrated on top of dealing with being sick.
>
> I noticed you said riding lessons and mentioned horses.
>
> Keep your chin up.
Posted by yabba on October 14, 2003, at 1:10:17
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese » yabba, posted by femlite on October 13, 2003, at 14:37:36
> No need to worry, okay?
Ok =]
Posted by MamaB on October 14, 2003, at 7:20:03
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese » DharmaMama, posted by femlite on October 13, 2003, at 15:48:25
femlite
As one who has been on both sides of the situation let me at least say this. My basic suggestion: STAND FIRM,BE POLITE, DON'T LEAVE UNTIL YOU ARE SATISFIED. What you are facing now is the some extent a product of that charming inovation known as "managed care." I strongly recommend that you get a good therapist (not an MD psychiatrist) - best is probably a PhD or PsyD psychologist. HE/she is qualified to diagnose. They in turn (if they are worth their salt)will usually know a reliable MD/ psychiatrist who can prescribe for you with the psychologhts' recommendation while you are in therapy.
I don't have all of the answers, but this seems to work best -- it has for me and others that I know and is what those of us "in the business" find the easiest to work with.
Now days MD/Psychiatrists have little time to do more than prescribe -- sad though it may be.
Let me know how this works out for you.
Posted by femlite on October 14, 2003, at 8:17:17
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by MamaB on October 14, 2003, at 7:20:03
You are very kind and I hate to sound like such a naysayer to someone so helpful, but Im afraid the therapsit route hasnt been very helpful yet.
Pdoc #2 SENT me to a Phd therapist because I was too much trouble for her to dx. When I got to said Phd therapists I was given a 500 question form to fill out. 2 days later I dropped off the form for the therapist to evaluate. The next day when I returned for my dx, he said, and I quote "These answers sound like there coming from a person who is REALLy crying out for help" .....WHAT? I thought thats his dx? Does he really think this is some great revealation? $#^%&^*crimeny*&%&(*)#@^#
Then he proceeds to tell me that he doesnt relly think meds are the answers to any ones problems.
(Thanks sherlock)
I felt so vunerable and desperate for help that he suckered me into 2 more visits, you know asking me questions about my family, childhood, husband...I ramble on for an hour and realize Im leaving without a dx again.
I feel like such an idiot
Last time after 40 min. I finally remembered to explain to him that my pdoc sent me to him for a dx and he still hasnt given me one. So he says "well we only have 5 min. left and you cant expect me to start explaining it now"
SOOOOOOOO.....tomorrow is the big day, my next appointment with him. Pray or think me some good vibes okay? That Ill stick to my guns.I really have little hope that I will recieve a satisfactory reply. I feel hes been completly dishonest, dragging this out to fulfill his own agenda, (in my best interest of course, because I clearly need help and I may have a compliance issue...) yada yada yada
Ive asked him about pdocs in our area. He doesnt recomend any of them. Thats what he told me.
Hes the 3rd therapist ive been to.
Ill stop ranting now. Your advise is solid, Im just chalking it up to my ongoing bad doctor karma.
I believe your idea is right but
The only other option I have is driving to the nearest major metropolis, 1 1/2 hours away. I dont see how I can manage to find a good pdoc or therapist and drive that distance very often.
But somehow I will.
Thanks for the pep talk. Im not a quitter but it helps to have pat on the back when you feel youve been sideswiped.
> femlite
> As one who has been on both sides of the situation let me at least say this. My basic suggestion: STAND FIRM,BE POLITE, DON'T LEAVE UNTIL YOU ARE SATISFIED. What you are facing now is the some extent a product of that charming inovation known as "managed care." I strongly recommend that you get a good therapist (not an MD psychiatrist) - best is probably a PhD or PsyD psychologist. HE/she is qualified to diagnose. They in turn (if they are worth their salt)will usually know a reliable MD/ psychiatrist who can prescribe for you with the psychologhts' recommendation while you are in therapy.
> I don't have all of the answers, but this seems to work best -- it has for me and others that I know and is what those of us "in the business" find the easiest to work with.
> Now days MD/Psychiatrists have little time to do more than prescribe -- sad though it may be.
> Let me know how this works out for you.
Posted by MamaB on October 14, 2003, at 8:38:30
In reply to Re: RANT WARNING :-0 » MamaB, posted by femlite on October 14, 2003, at 8:17:17
Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I say go for the 90 min drive. I know its a pain, but it may well be worth it. My treatment/therapy/
medications come from doctors at a large univerity medical center. If you don't mind another suggestion -- in dealing with such an instituion ASK TO SEE AN ATTENDING PHYSICIAN. DO NOT let them schedule you with a resident. And remember, stand firm, be overly polite. If you are told it is not possible to see an attending physician ask why not. (you have a right to know)
Chances are they tell everyone that. They will probably not be able to schedule you with an attending for a long period. If this happens, take the appointment, and ask to be called if anything opens up sooner. It is family policy in our family to see attending physicians at the med center and we have been going there for 25 years.
I still recommend the psychologist route too. If I were you I would report the one you last had to your state's licensing/certification board (hopefully he is licensed!) In the future find out. In many states they can practice without being certified.
Also, no good psychologist or plychiatrist should give you a diagnosis until they have seen you AT LEAST four or five times! Hope this helps.
Posted by femlite on October 14, 2003, at 9:19:07
In reply to Re: RANT WARNING :-0, posted by MamaB on October 14, 2003, at 8:38:30
Thanks mama for the good advice.(your a sweetie :)
I think the 4 or 5 visits is a good policy, i just wish he was up front about it. Why couldnt he just come out and say it will be 4-5 visits b4 I can give a proper dx. I dont get it.
They (docs)all make me feel like Im am not privy to the assesment process. Do you know what I mean. I dont know how to explain it. I just feel lied to through the whole process. Like they know what they think of me, but their not going to tell me about it. Am I being paranoid?
Does any one else feel like this?There is a medical university 9o mins. Thats probably the best idea.
Im just afraid to go all that way and maybe be disapointed again.
> Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I say go for the 90 min drive. I know its a pain, but it may well be worth it. My treatment/therapy/
> medications come from doctors at a large univerity medical center. If you don't mind another suggestion -- in dealing with such an instituion ASK TO SEE AN ATTENDING PHYSICIAN. DO NOT let them schedule you with a resident. And remember, stand firm, be overly polite. If you are told it is not possible to see an attending physician ask why not. (you have a right to know)
> Chances are they tell everyone that. They will probably not be able to schedule you with an attending for a long period. If this happens, take the appointment, and ask to be called if anything opens up sooner. It is family policy in our family to see attending physicians at the med center and we have been going there for 25 years.
> I still recommend the psychologist route too. If I were you I would report the one you last had to your state's licensing/certification board (hopefully he is licensed!) In the future find out. In many states they can practice without being certified.
> Also, no good psychologist or plychiatrist should give you a diagnosis until they have seen you AT LEAST four or five times! Hope this helps.
>
Posted by MamaB on October 14, 2003, at 9:33:34
In reply to Re: RANT WARNING :-0 » MamaB, posted by femlite on October 14, 2003, at 9:19:07
femlite
EVERYONE is paranoid to some degree or other! I know it is difficult, but it takes time if this process is to go properly (getting good mental health care, proper meds etc)
Again, best wishes.
Posted by Zarah78 on October 14, 2003, at 20:22:17
In reply to Tired of Chasing Geese, posted by femlite on October 12, 2003, at 21:02:13
(((HUGS))) Good luck!
I can understand some of your frustration with doctors. I've had similar problems with general practice docs who love to write me antibiotic scripts without bothering to look thru my chart at the 4 lines of medication allergies to see if what they just wrote is there. Then they get pissy when I read it, laugh and hand it back telling them bluntly, "No. Are you TRYING to kill me?" I usually get, "Oh, are you allergic to amoxycillin?" me: "Well, it's only on my chart right in front of you if you'd bothered to look." At this point, I'm not sure if its embarassment or frustration, they usually ask me what they should prescribe since I have such a wide range of allergies. If I'm really in a mood, I tell them to give me the same thing I had last time and make them do the heavy-lifting work of actually flipping a page or 2 in my file.
RANT WARNING:
It's frustrating the way doctors treat us as if we aren't real people and are all the same. I think MamaB(?) is right about it all being part of "managed care". Its all: Get 'em in, get 'em out, who cares if they get better - if not, I get more money to buy my yacht. Once again, I appologize to docs out there who AREN'T like this, but I have found this to be a prevailing attitude in the medical community. Yes, I'm probably a bit of a tough patient (who has little patience) between preconceptions and allergies, but I just want to be listened to and treated as if the person who essentially holds my life in his hands actually gives a rip.*sighs* ok. You're telling us how you feel about your doc here. Have you thought about telling this procrastinating therapist the same thing? Perhaps it would help?
Here's to you: (((femlite)))
And I wonder why I hesitate to ask a doc about meds? Good luck.
-Z
Posted by DharmaMama on October 15, 2003, at 8:40:48
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese » DharmaMama, posted by femlite on October 13, 2003, at 15:48:25
I have always been good at hiding my emotions to the outside world. I have even fooled myself at times. Although, I was never one to flash a fake smile. I just never wore my feelings on my sleeve.
I use to ride. I have been riding since I was five. I am twenty-six now. My parents sold my horses when I moved out (17). I guess I can not blame them. The expense is a butt-load and I was not riding anymore. I am now kicking myself in the butt. They were a trememdous therapy for me. I use to go out there everyday and ride. Then I wld go home, do my homework and go to bed in bliss. I truly regret it and there is no way I can afford it now. I have tried to find someone who would rent their horse out. My eldest (7) takes lessons and there are so many horses out there that are not ridden. However, I use to barrel race and everyone out there rise english. I always longed to ride english. My mother had this weird thought in her mind that since we live in Texas, I should ride western.
Another set back from the mother.
Posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 10:15:54
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese (Femlite), posted by DharmaMama on October 15, 2003, at 8:40:48
One Ma to another,
I know just what you mean. I have been fortunate enough to have a horse and you are right -- it has been very good therapy. Go with the English, thats how I learned and the only way I ride today.I have ridden western a couple of times and I compare the two to the difference between sailing a sailboat and driving a powerboat -- not because of speed, but riding english you and the horse are more "one". You have more control and yet it challanges you to think more. (changing gait, horses response to hands, thighs and your butt.) Western has always seemed to me like, "get on the horse and go" riding, and like being in a very uncomfortable rocking chair. (the saddle)No offense intended, to each his own. But try it, you might be surprised!
Posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 10:18:02
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese (Femlite), posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 10:15:54
Sorry the above message was intended for DharmaMama!
Posted by femlite on October 15, 2003, at 10:31:28
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese (Femlite), posted by DharmaMama on October 15, 2003, at 8:40:48
It sounds like Mom (you) need to take a few lessons. Can you afford that? It might be worth it jsut to ride. It might be more valuable than a therapist
Gee, I wonder if we could get Meidicare to cover "therapuetic" riding.It sounds like you have some bad feelings about your mom. Im sorry. At least they gave you the oppertunity to know horses. Alot of kids dont have that. Im thankful we can afford it. Well we really cant, but we are squeezing by. Its been my youngest only wish since she could talk.
We are trimming back all horse stuff and planning to move. So lessons are the only riding the girls will have this winter.
We have one unruley mustang left. My oldest loves him, but we cant break him of rearing, and I dont want to put any more money into him so hes going to market next month. Shes accepted it, but the kids get attached pretty easily. I only do ground work since my last spill. Or ride dead broke ones.
But even on the ground I love them. They are so honest and real.
Dont give up on that idea of renting. Your right there are so many sitting idle.
I hope theres a horse in your future
> I have always been good at hiding my emotions to the outside world. I have even fooled myself at times. Although, I was never one to flash a fake smile. I just never wore my feelings on my sleeve.
>
> I use to ride. I have been riding since I was five. I am twenty-six now. My parents sold my horses when I moved out (17). I guess I can not blame them. The expense is a butt-load and I was not riding anymore. I am now kicking myself in the butt. They were a trememdous therapy for me. I use to go out there everyday and ride. Then I wld go home, do my homework and go to bed in bliss. I truly regret it and there is no way I can afford it now. I have tried to find someone who would rent their horse out. My eldest (7) takes lessons and there are so many horses out there that are not ridden. However, I use to barrel race and everyone out there rise english. I always longed to ride english. My mother had this weird thought in her mind that since we live in Texas, I should ride western.
>
> Another set back from the mother.
>
>
Posted by femlite on October 15, 2003, at 10:47:11
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese (Femlite), posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 10:15:54
My riding days are all but done. One too many spills. My back cant take another injury. But I love ground work. Its a different kind of pleasure, "Dancing with Horses" as one puts it.
Ill have to enjoy watching my girls and I sure do.
The youngest has always ridden english or huntseat.
The oldest started western, but I taught her english this summer. Your right, the basics are all there. Balance, learning to ride with your seat.
Shes doing well. (I done good!) After her first lesson with her new huntseat instructor, she decided to move her up to a intermediated class.Thats alot of satisfaction for me. Passing on what I know.
She (my oldest) wanted to game her mustang someday, but we're selling off the little heard and moving in the spring if we can sell the house. So for now they are both taking lessons, and she found out in huntseat she can jump! There go the rest of my nerves :)
Posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 15:32:40
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese (Femlite) » MamaB, posted by femlite on October 15, 2003, at 10:47:11
Yeah, my mother turned grey VERY early -- when I began to jump! My second son rides dressage.
Not so scary -- only his perfectionism!!
Posted by DharmaMama on October 15, 2003, at 16:16:48
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese Femlite, posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 15:32:40
My older brother had a roping horse. As I always wanted to ride english, I use to jump him (2' & 3') bareback. We did not have an English saddle and western hurt like **** to jump in. I found great pleasure in doing that. He found out and threatened my life. He was (is) arrogant cowboy about English riding. All this talk, I think I may work for riding.
Posted by MamaB on October 16, 2003, at 7:08:59
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese Femlite, posted by DharmaMama on October 15, 2003, at 16:16:48
Tell your brother that "English" and bareback riding are far older then the cowboys and a heck of a lot more challanging. (Hmhm I thought only us "flat-saddle" folk were supposed to be that arrogant!) I have an eight year old Saddlebred gelding,17 hands, and if anyone ever put "western" tack on him they would be VERY sorry. Ask your brother why Saddlebreads, throughbreds, dressage horses and hunters live longer than those cowboy ponies!!
Posted by DharmaMama on October 16, 2003, at 8:35:19
In reply to Re: Tired of Chasing Geese (Femlite), posted by MamaB on October 15, 2003, at 10:15:54
Oh my gosh, I love sailing as well! I totally agree with the sailing vs. powerboat issue. Going in a powerboat is fun but it is just riding. Sailng is totally different and awesome. I see yr analogy.
This is the end of the thread.
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