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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 57 to 81 of 85. Go back in thread:
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 10:27:57
In reply to Sorry, but that is plain *NONSENSE*! » noa, posted by spike4848 on February 24, 2002, at 20:36:52
I think you're taking this a little too far.. i agree whole heartedly that talk thereapy won't help me.. I don;t have issues...
BUT, I do have ingrained behaviours from dealing with my crap for so long, so I do believe a behavioural therapy such as CBT will help me...
i saw a therapist for one appointment, and she was sooo freudian she made me want to shout and scream at her.. how dare she blame my upbringing and my parents care..
Only got one appointment on the wonderful (!!) National health Service in the Uk though!!!I'd give therapy a try if it was offfered to me now, as I am so bloody desperate I will try anything.. i believe that if you've lived with it all long enough, and feel desperate enough, you will try ANYTHING... Don;t rule something out before you've tried it just cos you don;t think it will help.
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 10:31:37
In reply to Re: I think that was CRAP!, posted by OldSchool on February 24, 2002, at 21:41:43
"Ive noticed women in particular go for this sort of thing, maybe because women just like to talk about themselves, I dont know. "
WHAT THE FUCK???????????????????????????? Now, I ahve been supporting you in this, but please, do not make your argument count for nothing with pathetic statements like this.
It makes you look a pointless, young, idiot with nothing good to say.
Nikki
Posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
In reply to For Old School (and Spike too), posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 0:50:27
> Old School,
> I am going to say now what I was trying very hard not to say in my early posts, because I thought, rightly or wrongly, that saying it might hurt you. I based that conclusion solely on my experience with my father, and you really do remind me of him. So if I'm wrong, please forgive me for being mistaken. And if I'm right, please forgive me for saying it.
>
> I hear the pain behind your anger and it saddens me that you have to feel it. I know the pain that both results in and results from either/or thinking and it is very deep. And I know the pain that results from alienating those who want to reach out to you and I wish sincerely that I could stop you from making that mistake. There are very kind people on this board, people who have in fact, said this more plainly than I have, since oddly enough I was trying to spare you my compassion. But I do have compassion for you and your very real suffering. It must hurt so bad to be so full of rage.
>
> So I really did try to explain the real benefits people find in therapy. And I really did understand your need to vent your frustration. And I really was happy when I "heard" you laugh on the admin board.
>
> And I really do hope that neither you nor Spike think that I was being hurtful or sarcastic to you. I was really just trying to protect you.
>
> That being said, I also have very real compassion for those who are hurt by your assumption that their pain is not equally real and deep. I'm not sure you understand that that is the message they are getting from you.
>
> Now if I'm right, and you are like my dad, I'm guessing you'll be very angry by this post and go on the offensive. And I want you to know that that's OK with me. I really do understand where that anger comes from. No one likes to be vulnerable. Just target it at me, please.
>
> And if I'm wrong, and you are nothing like my dad, perhaps we can lower the tone a bit and have a real discussion.
>
> And this is an interesting exercise in complete and total honesty.
>
> With all sincerity,
> DinahDinah, the above post is exactly what Im complaining about. It is full of these psychological concepts about "pain" and blah blah blah. I read your post and it made me want to yawn. Its full of these vague psychological ideas that have nothing to do with mental illness. You arent listening to what Im saying in my posts. I mean what I say. You are overanalyzing my posts and reading psychological stuff into it. All Ive been saying is that I cant relate well to the usual mental health spiel because these sorts of problems are typically not thought of as "real" physically based problems. And from my perspective its a very real and very physical illness.
Im just saying I dont understand why mental illness isnt being treated by Neurology instead of psychiatry. I dont understand why others cant see the simple fact that this stuff is basically a disease of the nervous system. Not psychobabble.
We have all been brainwashed into thinking these problems are psychological or emotional issues, when in reality its pure Neurology stuff. Again, poor sleeping that goes hand in hand with severe depression is not caused by "issues" its caused by some physical Central Nervous System process run amok and is broken and needs to be fixed medically. Who studies sleep? Neurologists. All sleep labs are run by Neurology. Duh.
Please dont analyze it like you are doing and put all these psychobabble terms into it. Im just saying that maybe, just maybe if the doctors who treat serious mental illness were more well versed in Neurology and the brain rather than psychobabble, maybe more patients would recover.
Old School
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 11:15:46
In reply to Re: For Old School (and Spike too), posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
I had no intention of offending.
Posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:17:42
In reply to I dont relate well to the mental health community, posted by OldSchool on February 22, 2002, at 21:22:41
I was 27 and this was my first and last suicide gesture:
Riding my bike in a rainstorm turned the corner saw a mack truck hurling toward me and thought why the hell not and headed straight for it.
The driver honlked, slammed on his brakes, and swerved into a ditch.
I rode home, sat stiffly on my couch, soaking wet in the dark for 5 hours. In the morning I looked up United Way agencies in the phonebook and made an appointment w/ a talk therapist.I've been in therapy ever since. No more suicide gestures alone would have been worth the time and trouble. But there have been other changes due to therapy, including an inch by inch restructuring of my entire personality.
To say that therapy is useless flies in the face of my own experience, the above being just one of several fairly theatrical life-saving anecdotes.
I am so animated by this therapy argument, in part b/c I saw the worst minds of my generation destroyed by the lack thereof. But me, I'm a keeper, despite all predispositions to the contrary.
trouble
Posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:37:11
In reply to Re: For Old School (and Spike too), posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
> > Old School,
As one pitiless egghead to another I applaud your remarks to Dinah's well-meaning post. I too cringe when people start talkling like they have special access to my uniquely hidden inner pain. But Dinah loves, that's her schtick.
It's time for you to stop ignoring philosophy in your argument regarding the Old School model of humanity. I sense a Hard Determinist view afoot, seems its implications fit in w/ your position. Am I correct in that?
By relegating all human activity to the CNS you are implying that man has no soul, no psyche, and this is a matter for philosophy. They've done great things in philosopy. I'd like to hear something about your stance on the subject.
respectfully,
troubleP.S. We're moving toward logic and ethics now, that is to say Marlboro Man territory, you should feel right at home here.
> > I hear the pain behind your anger and it saddens me that you have to feel it. I know the pain that both results in and results from either/or thinking and it is very deep. And I know the pain that results from alienating those who want to reach out to you and I wish sincerely that I could stop you from making that mistake. There are very kind people on this board, people who have in fact, said this more plainly than I have, since oddly enough I was trying to spare you my compassion. But I do have compassion for you and your very real suffering. It must hurt so bad to be so full of rage.
> >
> > So I really did try to explain the real benefits people find in therapy. And I really did understand your need to vent your frustration. And I really was happy when I "heard" you laugh on the admin board.
> >
> > And I really do hope that neither you nor Spike think that I was being hurtful or sarcastic to you. I was really just trying to protect you.
> >
> > That being said, I also have very real compassion for those who are hurt by your assumption that their pain is not equally real and deep. I'm not sure you understand that that is the message they are getting from you.
> >
> > Now if I'm right, and you are like my dad, I'm guessing you'll be very angry by this post and go on the offensive. And I want you to know that that's OK with me. I really do understand where that anger comes from. No one likes to be vulnerable. Just target it at me, please.
> >
> > And if I'm wrong, and you are nothing like my dad, perhaps we can lower the tone a bit and have a real discussion.
> >
> > And this is an interesting exercise in complete and total honesty.
> >
> > With all sincerity,
> > Dinah
>
> Dinah, the above post is exactly what Im complaining about. It is full of these psychological concepts about "pain" and blah blah blah. I read your post and it made me want to yawn. Its full of these vague psychological ideas that have nothing to do with mental illness. You arent listening to what Im saying in my posts. I mean what I say. You are overanalyzing my posts and reading psychological stuff into it. All Ive been saying is that I cant relate well to the usual mental health spiel because these sorts of problems are typically not thought of as "real" physically based problems. And from my perspective its a very real and very physical illness.
>
> Im just saying I dont understand why mental illness isnt being treated by Neurology instead of psychiatry. I dont understand why others cant see the simple fact that this stuff is basically a disease of the nervous system. Not psychobabble.
>
> We have all been brainwashed into thinking these problems are psychological or emotional issues, when in reality its pure Neurology stuff. Again, poor sleeping that goes hand in hand with severe depression is not caused by "issues" its caused by some physical Central Nervous System process run amok and is broken and needs to be fixed medically. Who studies sleep? Neurologists. All sleep labs are run by Neurology. Duh.
>
> Please dont analyze it like you are doing and put all these psychobabble terms into it. Im just saying that maybe, just maybe if the doctors who treat serious mental illness were more well versed in Neurology and the brain rather than psychobabble, maybe more patients would recover.
>
> Old School
Posted by swank chick on February 25, 2002, at 12:09:44
In reply to The worst minds of my generation, posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:17:42
um, maybe a new psychiatris is in order? it might help to discuss your "issues" with talk therapy
and your contradictory behaviormari
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 13:11:13
In reply to Re: For Old School (and Spike too), posted by OldSchool on February 25, 2002, at 11:13:36
been pondering some more...
SOME mental illness are caused by "situations" and thus CAN be helped, even cured, by psychotherapy...
I think we need a distinction between what you consider to be neurological, as it is clear to me that some people will be helped by talk therapy alone.
I am insane - and I believe it is neurological... I am a freak... but that doesn't stop me seeing that there are others who canbe helped.
I do agree that it is over used, and many of us who want neurological help cannot get it... We just have to keep fighting and someone carry on day to day.
hang in there old school.. I love your posts, so you have some purpose in life *s*
nikki x
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 13:50:42
In reply to Broaden your argument Old School, posted by trouble on February 25, 2002, at 11:37:11
> > > Old School,
>
> As one pitiless egghead to another I applaud your remarks to Dinah's well-meaning post. I too cringe when people start talkling like they have special access to my uniquely hidden inner pain.
>Ah trouble. You are right again. I really didn't want to do it and I think I was wrong in doing it. And so my apology is quite sincere. I had posters remorse almost immediately. But you can't take back that "Confirm your post".
Posted by Fi on February 25, 2002, at 16:25:27
In reply to Re: Broaden your argument Old School » trouble, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2002, at 13:50:42
Its enormously complex, I think. There can certainly be profound effects on mood which appear to be purely physical, for example as a symptom of various physical illnesses.
On the other hand, we all react to stress/threat/loss with an emotional and physical reaction (who hasnt slept badly when worried?), and sometimes that can tip over into an abnormal reaction. And be helped by counselling/therapy- as well as medication in some cases. Outside events can lead to emotional reactions that can lead to changes in the brain.
Just to make it even more complicated, its entirely normal to react to an illness which has a big negative consequence on your life with an emotional reaction. Someone housebound with crippling arthritis is likely to feel angry or depressed, for example. So if the problem limiting you is a mental/psychological one, you have a double whammy.
I think the crucial point of all this is to be clear that people vary enormously; for some, anti-depressants will help as a physical treatment for what are experienced very much as physical symptoms. Others will experience it purely as a psychological reaction to a stress, and find psychological treatments both the most meaningful and helpful. And everything in between.
Therapists and neurologists need to be respectful of this range, and those of us who are patients/clients also need to respect that other peoples' experiences are different and as valid as ours.Fi
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 17:39:55
In reply to But..., posted by NikkiT2 on February 25, 2002, at 13:11:13
The way I see it is that even mental illness with strong social-emotional contributing factors is still neurological. Experiences can actually alter the brain. Especially traumatic experiences. This can either set into motion a mental illness, or be one of several triggers to lead to the expression of a predisposed innate illness. So, for me, it is impossible to say that one is neurological and one is not.
Similarly, even with obviously inherited mental illness, life circumstances can still have the effect of altering the timing of the emergence, the severity and the course of the illness.
The brain alters experience and experience can alter the brain. This makes for a perpetually interacting system.
Posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 17:42:04
In reply to Re: neurology or psychoanything, posted by Fi on February 25, 2002, at 16:25:27
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 23:55:38
In reply to Re: For Judy, posted by OldSchool on February 23, 2002, at 14:46:26
> This therapy stuff teaches you to compromise too much, to just go along and accept things the way they currently are.
Please don't exaggerate or overgeneralize. We've been through this before, so I'm going to block you from posting for two weeks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 23:55:57
In reply to Sorry, but that is plain *NONSENSE*! » noa, posted by spike4848 on February 24, 2002, at 20:36:52
> Sorry, but that is plain *NONSENSE*!
> Frankly, I think you and others by supporting the notion that "therapy is important" are prolonging the suffering of patients who listen to this crap.
Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put others down. We've been through this before, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 26, 2002, at 10:48:32
In reply to Re: For Judy, posted by m3 on February 23, 2002, at 14:56:38
> Amen, Dinah. Even if we are all just sacks of chemicals (I tend to agree), we can notice that other people expressing their chemicals inappropriately can upset our own chemicals, especially when we are small children. Is this the only way our chemicals get out of whack? No. Sometimes they do their own thing and it really isn't situational.
>
> But even so, why let our chemicals spew on other people who can't handle them, instead of using a trained chemical-spill technician?
>
> My two cents, as someone who also wishes her parents had gone to therapists.
>
> M3M3,
I hope you don't mind, but I shared your metaphor with my therapist. He liked it as much as I did. I could almost see him memorizing it for future use.Dinah
Posted by m3 on February 27, 2002, at 8:49:54
In reply to Re: Chemical spills » m3, posted by Dinah on February 26, 2002, at 10:48:32
Sure, no problem. Except that my head might get a little bigger. :)
m3
Posted by helenbpd on February 27, 2002, at 19:41:03
In reply to Re: But..., posted by noa on February 25, 2002, at 17:39:55
>
> The brain alters experience and experience can alter the brain. This makes for a perpetually interacting system.Hi, I'm pretty new and was exercised a bit by this thread too, rigid old codgers and fuzzy thinkers alike! ... a reaction I suspect was entirely intended. A lot of talking from a "manly" man. And a lot of black-and-white cognition and total denial of affect from someone who doesn't "believe" in cognitive disorders. :) But heck, that's why we're here, and I'm game for new ideas.
On this issue I agree 100% with Noe & Dinah. I firmly believe that mental functioning is an ongoing DIALECTIC between genes/environment.
I'm involved fairly intensely in a community of those with borderline personality disorder and their loved ones (yes, those "nonsensical" Axis II disorders Old School doesn't beieve in), and I must say, the evidence is fairly compelling that early trauma leaves some very distinct chemical marks on the psyche. Tell Old School to check out any research by Bessel von der Kolk, Judith Herman, Bruce Perry or Alan Schore, and he'll find plenty of hard evidence as to this phenomenon.
I see no reason why, if external circumstance (in the form of abuse) can create trauma (personality disorders), it can't also help cure trauma (in the form of cognitive therapy). It really IS possible for folks to "rescript" themselves into healthier brains. Hardly easy, sure, and with about the success rate of someone recovering mobility after a stroke, but it CAN happen! I've seen it. And meds can certainly help the process along by making a person less rigidly "stuck" in their cognitive patterns, as well as less prone to the physically-based affective stuff.
So: I agree, it's a lovely, fluid, never-ending cycle, as Dinah points out. And more power to the human experience of ALL of it! And fie on black & white thinking.
:)
Helen
http://home.hvc.rr.com/helenbpd(ps I just posted under Bipolar or Borderline with a similar schtick)
Posted by misty99 on March 1, 2002, at 11:51:45
In reply to Re: But..., posted by helenbpd on February 27, 2002, at 19:41:03
As a second time poster to psycho-social-babble, I have following this thread with interest. Noa, I think I live in the same area as you do and it's also been my experience that psychiatrists mostly stick to meds and not therapy.
My own personal experience - A few years ago, I had a heck of a time finding a decent psychiatrist as my depression worsened. If it hadn't been for my great therapists, who knows what would have happened.
I also greatly credit these therapists, particularly, the second one I had, for helping me take the steps I needed to take to get back in the work world. It was none of the Freudian stuff as she cut right to the heart of the matter.
Sometimes, she said stuff I didn't want to hear but I knew it for my own good.But if I hadn't had these folks, I might have agree with the posters who find no value in therapy. Many of the previous therapists I had were disasters.
I do though have an issue that's similar to what the folks raised who find no value in therapy. Many times, what appeared to my therapist to be a motivation issue was truly a problem understanding what my learning disability was about. To her credit, she did try very hard to learn but it just got to a point where I felt that issue was such a barrier that she really couldn't help me anymore.
But in spite of that particular problem, I feel that therapy is definately helpful if you find the right person which I realize can be a big "if".
Misty
Posted by Shar on March 1, 2002, at 14:37:31
In reply to Re: Therapy vs. Meds , posted by misty99 on March 1, 2002, at 11:51:45
or did I just forget to confirm it?
It was in this thread, and it was about Old School's comment that women like to talk about themselves more than men do, and he was living up to his name (Old School=old fashioned=idea that, in general, women self-disclose more than men).
If you did, was there a reason or were you just having a bad day? I can't think of anything about it that was not civil!
Shar
Posted by Penny on March 1, 2002, at 23:46:13
In reply to Re: To each his own...., posted by noa on February 24, 2002, at 16:43:46
Noa,
Wow. I'm new to this board and have been doing some catch-up reading on previous threads, and may I just say I completely agree with Dinah that you are right on the money. I'm continually amazed that anyone can look at something as complex as the human brain and think of it as completely a 'biological' entity.
There are so many things we don't know about life, not just about the brain but about all aspects of life. I'm a firm believer in modern medicine, but strongly feel that the area of mental health is one that needs a GREAT deal of improvement, as I'm sure most folks would agree! In addition to my own negative experiences with pdocs, I've seen my nine-year-old cousin hospitalized multiple times over the course of a year after being diagnosed with bipolar disorder, only to be drugged until he was not even coherent. After visiting multiple doctors in multiple cities, his diagnosis was finally retracted (during his last hospitalization in a new hospital) and behavioral therapy has proven to be much more effective for him than medication.
I, myself, take two meds currently and have been on four or five (or six, depending on how you want to look at it!) and have been in therapy for two years. And the meds have gotten me out of depressive episodes, but the therapy has helped me survive the times that I was waiting for the meds to work!
Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that there ARE pdocs out there who see both sides of the story. I feel like I've finally found one who isn't just looking at the biological side, writing me a script and sending me out the door for another three months. He actually gives his patients his pager number, with different ways to page him depending on the urgency. And he has looked me in the eyes everytime I've seen him (three times so far) and encouraged me to page him WHENEVER I need to talk. He knows my therapist is on maternity leave and said he was glad I had had such strong support from her, but he wanted me to be able to find it at the clinic as well. Needless to say, I was shocked, but pleasantly!
Penny
Posted by Elizabeth on March 2, 2002, at 20:24:37
In reply to Freud was a Neurologist, posted by trouble on February 24, 2002, at 8:18:55
You're on the right track. Freud was a neurologist. He just didn't have the technology to take on the ambitious task he had proposed, his "Project for a Scientific Psychology." He had been attempting to "furnish a psychology that shall be a natural science." He abandoned the Project in 1895.
In the same year, the Spanish neuroanatomist Santiago Ramon y Cajal identified the neuron as the discrete unit of nervous tissue. It was this discovery that laid the foundation for modern biological psychology and psychiatry.
Moral: understanding something as complicated as the functioning of the human brain takes patience. *Lots* of patience.
-elizabeth
Posted by trouble on March 2, 2002, at 20:29:13
In reply to Re: Freud was a Neurologist, posted by Elizabeth on March 2, 2002, at 20:24:37
Posted by trouble on March 2, 2002, at 21:28:58
In reply to Re: Freud was a Neurologist, posted by Elizabeth on March 2, 2002, at 20:24:37
Fine, let everyone get mad at me but I hope you know my eye's twitching. I just camxjfdyhrfjrew71!!98549783t5dddddxxnzidfj
can't stand it when people use other people's posts especially mine as a platform for their own particular take on the nature of reality, which I am interested in, I am I want to hear everyone's take on reality, that's what I'm here for.But when I see a response to a post, especially mine, that demonstrates that the writer didn't read the post, especially when it's one of mine, but just latched onto a punctuation mark or something that reminded them of their own views on a subject that also had the letter K in the second word of the first sentence, then call me crazy but yes, I have a problem w/ that.
When I open a message in response to a post of mine I expect an exchange. Not agreement, or praise or even coherence, just simple reciprocity. When that doesn't happen I feel ignored, unimportant, tangential. We don't need to use each other this way. The whole site is an open platform! Here it is! Oracles unite! If one writer's footnote reminds you of a whole bunch of stuff you want to share, great! And if you replied by saying your post got me thinking about my own experiences w/ bottomless pits, let me tell you how I fell in- then great, that is intimate, I feel connected to you. Feeling connected is important. What happens when we lose sight of the fact that there are people behind these screens? We could, we really could, and then we'd really be crazy.
I've kept my mouth shut about this b/c no one's ever done it to one of my own posts before, and also b/c I did this exact thing to Creature when I first joined the community. It's a decent example, if I say so myself of the kind of obnoxious self-obsession I'm describing here. It's in the archives, under My First Apology On PSB. She forgave me too, though I wasn't sufficiently grateful, as I hadn't experienced the disregard firsthand and didn't realize how crummy it can make you feel, trust me. And I'll trust you.
trouble
Posted by trouble on March 2, 2002, at 22:09:08
In reply to Dear God people it was a joke. Irony, look it up! (nm), posted by trouble on March 2, 2002, at 20:29:13
Irony: (Webster)
the use of words to express something other than and especially the oppositeof the literal meaning
nee: Freud Was a Neurologist.
OK? Happy now? Can it end here? I'm altogether rather vexed about this, and the others. There are others you know. Hundreds. OK, maybe not hundreds but I know what I'll do, why don't I just go count them and see? Fine, I'll be right back.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2002, at 3:14:53
In reply to Dr. Bob--did you DELETE a post of mine...???, posted by Shar on March 1, 2002, at 14:37:31
> or did I just forget to confirm it?
I've reposted earlier responses and responded myself at PBA:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20011216/msgs/3234.html
Bob
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