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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 15:05:22
"They can live as "gay" and still keep their homosexual subculture, but they cannot perform acts of sex with members of the same sex and still remain officers, soldiers, or employees of the Salvation Army. Likewise, men and women cannot perform acts of sex unless married by God."
>
> Is an exception made in Vermont which recognizes (and provides for) a form of marriage?Mair
Posted by paxvox on August 27, 2001, at 20:24:02
In reply to WHAT ABOUT??? » SalArmy4me, posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 15:05:22
Not to split hairs, but what foundation do you stand on? Will it be there 10 years from now? 100?
Relativism rears its ugly head once more. Oh, BTW, Hitler probably would have been all for stem cell research.Hey, what's life if not expendable?
Suffer the children? I would die a thousand deaths before I took a cure at the cost of ANY human life, and life begins at the zygote.PAX said it
Posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 21:07:46
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » mair, posted by paxvox on August 27, 2001, at 20:24:02
> I'll bite. What does stem cell research have to do with marriage? As to your question, marriages are pretty much marriages only if they're recognized by the state or other applicable government. In this country, state law determines who may perform legally recognized marriages. To my way of thinking, this means that the laws of men (not God) determine who is "married" and those same laws determine when a marriage has ended.
Mair
Posted by gilbert on August 27, 2001, at 21:20:34
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » paxvox, posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 21:07:46
I'll bite as well, the whole concept of taking the bible literally means that you would have to accept contradiction from book to book. The historical perspective and the times are to be considered....women were treated like property not humans should we then continue this because it says so in the bible. This whole if your gay your going to hell crap is the kind of stuff I think makes Jesus want to bend over and puke. I have a fundamenatlist friend who says Ghandi went to hell......give me a break if ghandi is in hell just because he did not say the magical words I accept you jesus and he lived more like christ than some moron who treats people like shit but is going to heaven becuase he said the magical words.....get real, heaven is going to be a total bummer if the only people who get in are close minded opioniated bigots.
I believe this message was inspired through me by a more sane less prejudicial God...one of love and mercy.....
Gil
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 28, 2001, at 0:28:02
In reply to WHAT ABOUT??? » SalArmy4me, posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 15:05:22
Nope, the General's directives are NOT dictated by the whims of each individual states.
Posted by Wendy B. on August 28, 2001, at 1:13:41
In reply to WHAT ABOUT??? » SalArmy4me, posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 15:05:22
Sorry, guys, but this is in reference to...?
Somethin' happen on P-Babble Open last nite?
Yours,
W.
> "They can live as "gay" and still keep their homosexual subculture, but they cannot perform acts of sex with members of the same sex and still remain officers, soldiers, or employees of the Salvation Army. Likewise, men and women cannot perform acts of sex unless married by God."
> >
> > Is an exception made in Vermont which recognizes (and provides for) a form of marriage?
>
> Mair
Posted by Simcha on August 28, 2001, at 7:38:00
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » mair, posted by Wendy B. on August 28, 2001, at 1:13:41
Wendy B.,
This is about Sal starting a religious thread on the PB board instead of in here. It got redirected here. I guess you would have to go to the other board to pick up on the conversation. It's been an interesting discussion.
I got a little upset on the other board. My objections stem from the fact that I am not a Christian, I'm Jewish, and I'm gay. According the the High Holy General of the Salvation Army I'm going to roast for an eternity in this fictional place called, "Aitch-EEEEE-Double-Hockey-Sticks." I have a double whammy because I'm a Jew and I'm gay. I guess they'll turn the flames brighter for one such as me.... ;-)
(And why does G-d need an army anyway? I think that G-d can fight G-d's own battles, don't you?)
> Sorry, guys, but this is in reference to...?
>
> Somethin' happen on P-Babble Open last nite?
>
> Yours,
> W.
>
>
>
>
> > "They can live as "gay" and still keep their homosexual subculture, but they cannot perform acts of sex with members of the same sex and still remain officers, soldiers, or employees of the Salvation Army. Likewise, men and women cannot perform acts of sex unless married by God."
> > >
> > > Is an exception made in Vermont which recognizes (and provides for) a form of marriage?
> >
> > Mair
Posted by Simcha on August 28, 2001, at 7:53:19
In reply to WHAT ABOUT??? » SalArmy4me, posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 15:05:22
Mair,
This is a good point. Yet in my religion we marry gay and lesbian couples, provided that both parties are Jewish, of course.
Reform Judaism, the largest Jewish movement in this country, came out with a statement sometime a couple years ago. Reform Rabbis have been performing gay weddings for years, because Rabbis traditionally have such freedom to follow their conscience. The Reform Jewish organization as a whole decided to come out for gay weddings.
The Reconstructionist Jewish movement and the Traditional Renewal movement also perform gay weddings. These movements are much smaller though. Conservative synagogues usually do not perform gay weddings, yet they will support couples in other ways. It is not unheard of to have a Conservative Rabbi perform a gay wedding in his own office behind closed doors. The Orthodox movement does not support gay people at all. Of course they are the smallest Jewish movement in this country comprising only 5% of the Jews in this country.
Most Jews read Leviticus in Hebrew. In the Hebrew it is clear that the whole phrase "Man shall not lie with man as with a woman" refers to temple prostitution in pagan rituals and not homosexuality. It is also interesting to note that the Torah (Hebrew Bible) does not say anything about lesbians. Since the Torah does not expressly forbid homosexuality it is permitted. This goes along with Talmudic teachings by the great Rabbis who said, "That which is not forbidden in the Torah is permitted."
> "They can live as "gay" and still keep their homosexual subculture, but they cannot perform acts of sex with members of the same sex and still remain officers, soldiers, or employees of the Salvation Army. Likewise, men and women cannot perform acts of sex unless married by God."
> >
> > Is an exception made in Vermont which recognizes (and provides for) a form of marriage?
>
> Mair
Posted by NikkiT2 on August 28, 2001, at 12:28:44
In reply to WHAT ABOUT??? » SalArmy4me, posted by mair on August 27, 2001, at 15:05:22
Scary!!! Me and my husband aren't married in the eyes of god, (we had a civil wedding) so can we really not have sex?? *wg*
nikki
> "They can live as "gay" and still keep their homosexual subculture, but they cannot perform acts of sex with members of the same sex and still remain officers, soldiers, or employees of the Salvation Army. Likewise, men and women cannot perform acts of sex unless married by God."
> >
> > Is an exception made in Vermont which recognizes (and provides for) a form of marriage?
>
> Mair
Posted by mair on August 28, 2001, at 12:33:50
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » mair, posted by Simcha on August 28, 2001, at 7:53:19
> Simcha - your post was incredibly interesting and not something I was aware of at all. Why doesn't that liberalism extend to non-jews? My husband is Jewish. When he and I were married 18 years ago we could have had our pick of any number of rabbis who would perform the ceremony but none who would be willing to act as a co-celebrant with a priest or minister. What was the reluctance to "share the stage" all about? All of this made sense to me then but I honestly can't recall now what explanation I was given.
Mair
Posted by mair on August 28, 2001, at 12:37:42
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT???, posted by SalArmy4me on August 28, 2001, at 0:28:02
> Nope, the General's directives are NOT dictated by the whims of each individual states.
If the general pays no attention to the whims of individual states, how then does he figure out who is actually married? Does he recognize, for instance, couples who have been joined in a religious ceremony performed by an unlicensed person, or couples joined in a civil ceremony performed by a justice of the peace? What happens when there has been a divorce?
Mair
Posted by Simcha on August 28, 2001, at 12:52:30
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » Simcha, posted by mair on August 28, 2001, at 12:33:50
Mair,
There is a very strong warning in the Torah for Jews to not marry non-Jews. Many Rabbis don't feel comfortable with mixed marriages. The whole thing centers on a premise that a Jewish wedding should be the beginning of a Jewish family, in a Jewish home, raising Jewish children so that there will be more Jews.
Most Rabbis will not officiate at a wedding that includes a Christian Minister because of the Jesus thing. Almost all prayers end in,"through Christ our Lord, Amen." There is no way any Jew could say "Amen" to that. "Amen" is Hebrew for "It is so" or "Yes, it is." A Rabbi would not be willing to go against his/her own Jewish beliefs to officiate at a ceremony where Jesus would be mentioned as anyone more than a Jew who lived about 2000 years ago who was killed by the Romans.
We Jews have this aversion to polytheism. Any inkling that there might be more than One G-d prayed to in a ceremony would send a Rabbi packing. There were nasty things that happened to Jews in the Torah who insisted on worshipping other gods. OK so Christians don't see it this way but to us Jews the Trinity sounds like three gods.
It is very interesting to note that the Reform Synagogue in Chicago that has a special ministry toward gay Jews, Or Chadash, is led by a female Rabbi who will not marry Jews and non-Jews. She will NOT marry a non-Jewish man to a Jewish woman. She will NOT marry a non-Jewish woman to a Jewish woman. She WILL marry a Jewish woman to a Jewish woman. She is fair in her ways. It is her choice. If a Jew wants to marry a non-Jew she will direct them to a Rabbi who will be willing to perform the marriage.
Incidentally, it does not require a Rabbi to officiate at a Jewish wedding. All it takes is for a couple, any couple, to say the vows in Hebrew and to sign a "Ketubah" (marriage contract) in front of witnesses. I find that even many Jews do not know about this.
> > Simcha - your post was incredibly interesting and not something I was aware of at all. Why doesn't that liberalism extend to non-jews? My husband is Jewish. When he and I were married 18 years ago we could have had our pick of any number of rabbis who would perform the ceremony but none who would be willing to act as a co-celebrant with a priest or minister. What was the reluctance to "share the stage" all about? All of this made sense to me then but I honestly can't recall now what explanation I was given.
>
> Mair
Posted by Mair on August 28, 2001, at 21:00:20
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » mair, posted by Simcha on August 28, 2001, at 12:52:30
>
> "She will NOT marry a non-Jewish man to a Jewish woman. She will NOT marry a non-Jewish woman to a Jewish woman." > Incidentally, it does not require a Rabbi to officiate at a Jewish wedding. All it takes is for a couple, any couple, to say the vows in Hebrew and to sign a "Ketubah" (marriage contract) in front of witnesses. I find that even many Jews do not know about this."Simcha - please excuse my ignorance and indulge my curiosity. I was always told that the children of Jewish women were considered to be Jews regardless of the faith of the father. (one friend used to joke that this is because you could never be certain about the identity of the father). If this is the case and a goal is the propagation of Jews, why wouldn't rabbis feel differently about mixed marriages involving Jewish women? Also, if a ceremony is not conducted by a rabbi, who signs the marriage certificate?
With regard to your point about ceremonies for mixed marriages, why wouldn't Christian ministers have the same scruples about wanting only to participate in weddings where the goal is a Christian family and Christian children? Do you suppose it's easier for them since Christians acknowledge both the old and new testaments? My wedding celebrant was a minister who had studied Hebrew in divinity school. The ceremony, written by him, was a hybrid which incorporated portions of the Jewish wedding ceremony, spoken in Hebrew. There were readings from both the Old and New Testament. I think because of the reluctance of rabbis to participate in weddings involving mixed marriages, mine was not the only wedding in which he used this particular ceremony. I'm sure to a devout Jew, this is pretty odious. I'm sure my father-in-law, a one-time rabbinical student, harbored some very mixed feelings. But I'm not sure I fully appreciate, given the prevalence of mixed marriages, why it should be such a bigger deal for a rabbi.
Mair
Posted by SalArmy4me on August 28, 2001, at 23:31:28
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » SalArmy4me, posted by mair on August 28, 2001, at 12:37:42
Any marriage recognized officially by the Territorial government (not a gay marriage), is then recognized by the Salvation Army Corps Councils. So that includes every legal marriage except some of the ones being done in Hawaii.
The Salvation Army is an Evangelical movement, designed to aid anyone in coming to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ. So those who have chosen a life of sin, or have been unfortunate enough to go through a divorce still enjoy the same dignity that the Church bestows upon others less fortunate---like the destitute, the AIDS victim, the felon, and the pedophile. We pray that they repent from their sins and come washed clean by the healing Blood of Jesus. Then they may participate in all the higher evangelical ministries of the Salvation Army. If they so choose to remain a non-Christian, they are always entitled to participate in the less essential ministries of the Army.
But noone represents the Army in word and deed (Officers, Soldiers, Adherents, Employees) who has denied the divinity of Christ and the redemption he gave to Mankind on the Cross at Calvary, 2000 years ago.
If you have any more questions, do not hesitate to ask me. Or, you can visit your local Salvation Army Corps Command and ask them.
Blood
&
Fire
1865-2001 and forever!
Posted by Simcha on August 29, 2001, at 8:04:49
In reply to Simcha - more questions, posted by Mair on August 28, 2001, at 21:00:20
>Simcha - please excuse my ignorance and indulge my curiosity. I was always told that the children of Jewish women were considered to be Jews regardless of the faith of the father. (one friend used to joke that this is because you could never be certain about the identity of the father). If this is the case and a goal is the propagation of Jews, why wouldn't rabbis feel differently about mixed marriages involving Jewish women?
Well, this is because a Rabbi wants to make 100% sure that Jewish children are raised in a Jewish home and that they turn out to be Jewish adults. A father who insists on having a Christmas Tree, calling it a "Hannukah Bush" (as some do), and going to church on Sunday might confuse the children. I'm not saying that this thinking is 100% correct. Yet I can see the logic behind it.
>Also, if a ceremony is not conducted by a rabbi, who signs the marriage certificate?
A marriage certificate is not a Jewish document. It is a requirement of the state. A civil ceremony can be performed later to fulfill the requirements of the state. I was merely discussing the requirements for a Jewish religious wedding.
> With regard to your point about ceremonies for mixed marriages, why wouldn't Christian ministers have the same scruples about wanting only to participate in weddings where the goal is a Christian family and Christian children?Some do. Take a look at the Catholics. Most priests will require a couple who is mixed that if they want a Catholic wedding they must agree to raise the children Catholic. It all depends on the denomination of Christian.
>Do you suppose it's easier for them since Christians acknowledge both the old and new testaments? ... But I'm not sure I fully appreciate, given the prevalence of mixed marriages, why it should be such a bigger deal for a rabbi.
A Christian could easily pray in a Synagogue and say "Amen" to almost all of the prayers. We worship the same G-d as you, I guess that Christians call it "God the Father." Yet a Jew cannot go into a Christian Church and pray very easily. Almost all prayers in a Christian Church are offered to Jesus. We do not acknowledge the divinity of Jesus. Therefore a Jew could not say, "Amen" to almost all the prayers said in a Christian Church.
To give you an example. One of my relatives just died, my grandmother, a few weeks ago. She was Catholic. Actually, she was born a Jew, raised a Jew, and converted to Catholicism when she married her fifth husband. I have a very complicated family. Her father was Catholic and her mother was Jewish. They were married in a synagogue, Reform obviously. None of my grandmother's children turned out to be adult Jews, religiously. I have chosen to be Jewish religiously as I am by birth Jewish. I am her only grandchild that is Jewish religiously. Such is the way of mixed marriages sometimes. It tends to work against the Jewish people.
Anyway, I could not participate in most of the prayers in her funeral. It was very odd going to a Catholic funeral for my Jewish grandmother. I was a pall bearer and I read a passage from the Hebrew Bible. I quietly said Kaddish for her while everyone else participated in the mass. It was very surreal for me. There were no prayers uttered by the priest that did not end in "through Christ our Lord." Therefore I could not say "Amen" to any of them. I felt included in the funeral as I also offered a mini-eulogy. It was difficult but I did it.
I am just a lay person. I would think that a Rabbi would attend a Christian wedding but he/she would be hard-pressed to find a point where he/she could reasonably participate. I happen to be very creative and very knowledgeable of the Catholic ceremony so I could find ways to participate in my grandmother's funeral that did not violate my beliefs. A Rabbi who was not raised in such a diverse family might have a more difficult time finding ways to participate in a Christian religious ceremony.
I hope that helps....
Posted by Mair on August 29, 2001, at 20:35:27
In reply to Re: WHAT ABOUT??? » mair, posted by SalArmy4me on August 28, 2001, at 23:31:28
> " So those who have chosen a life of sin,"
Sal - Dare I even ask who is the arbiter of sin?
Mair
Posted by Mair on August 29, 2001, at 20:43:40
In reply to Re: Simcha - more questions, posted by Simcha on August 29, 2001, at 8:04:49
> >Simcha - thanks very much. Alot of what you've written is hardly news to me, but you explain things with much more clarity than I can explain them to myself. Did you read "After Long Silence" by Helen Fremont? It's written by a jew who was raised as a catholic by parents who hid their jewish background. I found it fascinating. Thanks again
Mair
Posted by Simcha on August 30, 2001, at 9:32:56
In reply to Re: Simcha - more questions » Simcha, posted by Mair on August 29, 2001, at 20:43:40
> Did you read "After Long Silence" by Helen Fremont? It's written by a jew who was raised as a catholic by parents who hid their jewish background. I found it fascinating.
Mair,
No I haven't read this. Maybe I should pick up a copy. I had no clue that we were Jewish until High School when we were on a family vacation and it leaked out. My father made some joke about my mother and said, "that's because you're Jewish." I asked about what Dad meant and both of them curtly explained that Mom was Jewish and Grandma was too but that Mom is now Catholic.
My mother converted to Catholicism two weeks before I was born. According to Jewish law, she is still Jewish and so am I. Jewish law does not recognize conversion. I learned that our Jewishness was not something that was to be talked about. It was like the Cherokee blood on my Mom's side of the family which wasn't talked about either. (That's another story, let's just say that the last time I filled out paperwork for a federal application they marked me down as "Native American." It was a complete surprise to me!)
So I can relate with other Jews who have found out that they were Jewish later in life because "Jewishness" was a family secret to avoid persecution. I learned that my Grandmother was forbidden to mention that she was Jewish by her brother who converted to Christian Scientism. They lived in Cicero at the time and Jews were very unpopular in Cicero way back when.
So that book might be a good read for me... I'll check into it... Thanks!!!
Posted by Mair on August 30, 2001, at 21:19:47
In reply to Mair, No Problem... ;-) » Mair, posted by Simcha on August 30, 2001, at 9:32:56
> >Simcha - I hope you do check this book out. There really are 2 very fascinating stories. The first is the parents' Holocaust background - how they came to raise their daughters as Catholics. The second story is that of the daughters' self discovery and the enmity that caused in the family. The parents had no interest in revealing their past. Given your background I think it really would interest you and I wouldn't mind having your take on it when and if you do get a chance to read it. It's out in paperback now.
Mair
Posted by sar on August 31, 2001, at 2:05:36
In reply to Simcha - do read the book, posted by Mair on August 30, 2001, at 21:19:47
this has been an interseting thread, and i especially thank mair and simcha.
this is just curiosity, but i'm wondering if a more religious person could tell me what i "officially" am, as i was raised non-religiously. my father's parents were southern baptists. my mother's mom is catholic, and her father was jewish.
i feel agnostic. i suppose that is the wisest answer for me--whatever i feel to be. but according to the rules of religion, what am i?
sar
Posted by Wendy B. on August 31, 2001, at 8:52:05
In reply to religious guidance, posted by sar on August 31, 2001, at 2:05:36
> this has been an interseting thread, and i especially thank mair and simcha.
>
> this is just curiosity, but i'm wondering if a more religious person could tell me what i "officially" am, as i was raised non-religiously. my father's parents were southern baptists. my mother's mom is catholic, and her father was jewish.
>
> i feel agnostic. i suppose that is the wisest answer for me--whatever i feel to be. but according to the rules of religion, what am i?
>
> sar
sar,
how ya' doin'? i agree with the comments about chat in the other thread, it's a yahoo thing, i'm sure, i hate and loathe and despise yahoo... lousy interface, too many ads, etc....as to your religious question: if you're asking are you a jew or not, the jewish people would ask if your mother's mother was jewish. if she was originally, but converted to catholicism, that's one thing. if she was a catholic and her husband was a jew, that doesn't count... it is passed down through the mother's side.
any clearer?thought not...
yer frend,
W.
This is the end of the thread.
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