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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
I could use anyone's imput on this. I cautiously
revealed to my friend that I suffer from clinical
depression and that I have had this illness since
childhood. He responded to me by saying that
any biological illness can be cured. He said
that we create our illnesses and that we can
think our way out of them. He went on further
to state that Jesus said that if a person has
the faith of a mustard seed, he can move
mountains. I told him that my therapist who is
a clinical psychologist said that there is no
cure for depression. He told me that I should
quit my therapist and go back to my hypnotherapist
because my hypnotherapist said that major
depression can be cured. This is so frustrating
to me because my psychotherapist just recently
had to spend a whole hour with me just to get
me out of denial; there has been a part of me
who has always felt that I should be strong and
just think my way out of my illness. What do you
all think about this?Glenn
Posted by sar on July 29, 2001, at 23:15:19
In reply to Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
Glenn,
go with your heart and gut. i don't think this is a rational issue. do what's right for you. you've told your friend, so what, now he knows--the best thing for *him* to do is simply be supportive of whatever you think is best.
sar
Posted by kazoo on July 30, 2001, at 1:23:31
In reply to Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
> What do you all think about this?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^You see too many therapists, Glenn, and it's ridiculous.
They've become a habit and you've become addicted.
Do you need so many of them?
"Quantity" is no substitute for "quality."Expand your personal horizon beyond these cold, sterile clinical environments you've become so accustomed to and dependent on.
A nice, long vacation like at an italian villa on the south-east coast facing the Adriatic Sea is a nice touch.
Or Sicily, a warm place where the people are HOT.As far as your Jesus friend goes, tell him to put a sock on it.
Live!
"Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death." Auntie Mame ("MAME")kaZoo
Posted by mila on July 30, 2001, at 8:15:41
In reply to Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
Hi Glenn,
I happen to believe exactly what your friend said.
I do not believe that one can 'just think' their way out of depression however. Medication, therapy, lifestyle change are a must. I also believe that your clinical psychologist do not have any right to call themselves a psychologist. What this person told you is abhorrent, ignorant, and wrong. There are cures. How can one live and work and get better without faith without hope I do not know.mila
Posted by mgrueni on July 30, 2001, at 8:21:53
In reply to Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
Hi Glenn,
< He said that we create our illnesses and that we can think our way out of them. >
Hmmm...sounds as if he thinks it`s your *fault* that you are depressed, because you created your illness? And furthermore it`s your fault that you cannot just "think it away" on your own????
< there has been a part of me
who has always felt that I should be strong and
just think my way out of my illness >Oh yes... I know this *part* of myself very well.
I now have recurring phases of depression for about 14 years, and never took any anti-depressants against it, neither had any *serious* Psychotherapy. And that is partly because drugs and Psychotherapists scare me, but mostly because I`ve been taught the following: "be strong or die" when I was 6 or 7 years old. This *advice* from my father became part of myself during the years. On the one hand I would say it made me *strong* in a way - I have despite of my depression a quite normal life (job, partner and all). But on the other I believe that the way I`ve been brought up plays a big part of my illness.
I am not going to say that I found the perfect solution, but for me, a compromise was the best I could do. I know there is a great strength inside my heart but I try to see it as an *emergency reserve* which I only use if there`s no other way. Trying to be always strong does no good to you, quite the opposite, you drifting away into *pretending mode* and that is not *strong* at all.It took me a long time to accept my illness and to learn that it`s sometimes better for me to take my time and rest, instead of forcing me to be *normal*, just because I think that is, what others expect from me.
Errr...I am doing a bad job on explaining, hm?
What I am trying to say is, the most important thing is (in my opinion) to take notice of your own needs. It doesn´t matter what others think what you *should* do, because they are not in your place, so how can they know?
If you feel it helps you to fight against your illness and if that makes you feel better, then fight. If you feel that you cannot go on with your battle at the moment, and that you need a break, then take your time and rest.
Sometimes *faith* can be a great source of energy and there`s nothing wrong with it. But in the moment it starts to do any harm to you, because it makes you feel quilty if you don`t succeed and then think it`s all your fault, because you are not *strong* enough, then it`s time to recharge your batteries and allow yourself to feel depressed, to cry, to be down.
Glenn, the fight against depression is one of the hardest things one can be confronted with and maybe it would be good if you don´t just notice your failures, but also your successes.Your friend...well, I am sure he wants only the best for you and thinks his advice (if you only took it and do what he says) would be a quick solution for all your problems. But it seems to me that it only made you feel worse, because you was looking for some support and understanding and the only message you *read out of* his words was: "you are just not strong enough, if you were you would not be depressed". Maybe you tell him about your feelings and what you expect from him as a friend?
Take care,
Micha
PS: sorry for *rambling*.. this always happens when I try to explain something in a foreign language because I think I have to prevent *misunderstandings* and then use a lot more words than I would normally do.
Arrgh... see what I mean? ;o)
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 30, 2001, at 18:20:53
In reply to Re: Possible trouble with a friend., posted by mgrueni on July 30, 2001, at 8:21:53
> Hi Glenn,
>
> < He said that we create our illnesses and that we can think our way out of them. >
>
> Hmmm...sounds as if he thinks it`s your *fault* that you are depressed, because you created your illness? And furthermore it`s your fault that you cannot just "think it away" on your own????
>
>
> < there has been a part of me
> who has always felt that I should be strong and
> just think my way out of my illness >
>
> Oh yes... I know this *part* of myself very well.
> I now have recurring phases of depression for about 14 years, and never took any anti-depressants against it, neither had any *serious* Psychotherapy. And that is partly because drugs and Psychotherapists scare me, but mostly because I`ve been taught the following: "be strong or die" when I was 6 or 7 years old. This *advice* from my father became part of myself during the years. On the one hand I would say it made me *strong* in a way - I have despite of my depression a quite normal life (job, partner and all). But on the other I believe that the way I`ve been brought up plays a big part of my illness.
> I am not going to say that I found the perfect solution, but for me, a compromise was the best I could do. I know there is a great strength inside my heart but I try to see it as an *emergency reserve* which I only use if there`s no other way. Trying to be always strong does no good to you, quite the opposite, you drifting away into *pretending mode* and that is not *strong* at all.
>
> It took me a long time to accept my illness and to learn that it`s sometimes better for me to take my time and rest, instead of forcing me to be *normal*, just because I think that is, what others expect from me.
>
> Errr...I am doing a bad job on explaining, hm?
>
> What I am trying to say is, the most important thing is (in my opinion) to take notice of your own needs. It doesn´t matter what others think what you *should* do, because they are not in your place, so how can they know?
> If you feel it helps you to fight against your illness and if that makes you feel better, then fight. If you feel that you cannot go on with your battle at the moment, and that you need a break, then take your time and rest.
> Sometimes *faith* can be a great source of energy and there`s nothing wrong with it. But in the moment it starts to do any harm to you, because it makes you feel quilty if you don`t succeed and then think it`s all your fault, because you are not *strong* enough, then it`s time to recharge your batteries and allow yourself to feel depressed, to cry, to be down.
> Glenn, the fight against depression is one of the hardest things one can be confronted with and maybe it would be good if you don´t just notice your failures, but also your successes.
>
> Your friend...well, I am sure he wants only the best for you and thinks his advice (if you only took it and do what he says) would be a quick solution for all your problems. But it seems to me that it only made you feel worse, because you was looking for some support and understanding and the only message you *read out of* his words was: "you are just not strong enough, if you were you would not be depressed". Maybe you tell him about your feelings and what you expect from him as a friend?
>
> Take care,
>
> Micha
>
> PS: sorry for *rambling*.. this always happens when I try to explain something in a foreign language because I think I have to prevent *misunderstandings* and then use a lot more words than I would normally do.
>
> Arrgh... see what I mean? ;o)Dear Micha,
Thank you for your input; I understood you
perfectly well. You are right; my friend's
comments only made me feel worse.Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 30, 2001, at 18:23:38
In reply to Re: Possible trouble with a friend., posted by mila on July 30, 2001, at 8:15:41
>
>
> Hi Glenn,
> I happen to believe exactly what your friend said.
> I do not believe that one can 'just think' their way out of depression however. Medication, therapy, lifestyle change are a must. I also believe that your clinical psychologist do not have any right to call themselves a psychologist. What this person told you is abhorrent, ignorant, and wrong. There are cures. How can one live and work and get better without faith without hope I do not know.
>
> milaThank you for your feedback, Mila!
I am curious; what cures for major
depression have you heard about?
Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 30, 2001, at 18:25:41
In reply to Re: Possible trouble with a fiend. » Glenn Fagelson, posted by kazoo on July 30, 2001, at 1:23:31
> > What do you all think about this?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You see too many therapists, Glenn, and it's ridiculous.
> They've become a habit and you've become addicted.
> Do you need so many of them?
> "Quantity" is no substitute for "quality."
>
> Expand your personal horizon beyond these cold, sterile clinical environments you've become so accustomed to and dependent on.
>
> A nice, long vacation like at an italian villa on the south-east coast facing the Adriatic Sea is a nice touch.
> Or Sicily, a warm place where the people are HOT.
>
> As far as your Jesus friend goes, tell him to put a sock on it.
>
> Live!
> "Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death." Auntie Mame ("MAME")
>
> kaZooThank you, Kazoo; I will keep your
suggestions in mind.Glenn
Posted by Kingfish on July 30, 2001, at 19:28:51
In reply to Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
Glenn:
This phrase caught my eye:
"had to spend a whole hour with me just to get
me out of denial"because it was something I struggled with for a decade +. I went from Dr. to Dr. trying to find a physical cause for my depression and mania, and there just was none. I could not believe it could be mental, and that mental illness could be biological in nature. I could not let myself see its prevalence in my family because they were not open to it.
My family is very religious - I am not now. There seem to be two approaches from Evangelicals at least, and I think Christianity in general - one is very loving and supportive, the way I would think Jesus was. The other is very judgemental and harsh. I studied the Bible extensively as a child, and am convinced Christ would not want us to suffer. He would have wanted us to be happy, and if taking medication to correct a problem in our brains is a necessary part of that, so be it. I read a post once on Beliefnet by an Evangelical woman who was haunted by depression and her church told her it was sinful to take AD's. She found a Christian clinic and started Prozac, and her life was turned around. She liked to think of it as a gift from God.
Anyway, all this rambling comes to a point. Because I gave in finally and decided to look at my manic depression from a different prespective, to stop denying that there was something wrong, and that I couldn't cure it by myself, or with antibiotics, I found a great relief. I gently opened the discussion with my family and found a very nice response, even though they are, again, still very religious.
I feel firmly now that depression is an imbalance of some sort, though it's not quite clear yet. The meds give us a chance to be strong and healthy and that is what Christ, or Buddha, or we ourselves would and should want from this life.
- K.
P.S. Sorry, I ended up using this as a confessional, didn't I?;)
Posted by mila on July 30, 2001, at 20:57:19
In reply to Re: Possible trouble with a friend. » mila, posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 30, 2001, at 18:23:38
> I am curious; what cures for major
> depression have you heard about?
>
>
> GlennHi Glenn,
85% of patients with major depression fully recover without relapse (4 years observation) if treated by medication or ECT or Surgery PLUS IPT (intepersonal therapy)and CBT (cognitive-behavioral therapy). Medication of course should be tailored to a person individually.
56 % of bipolar patients fully recover without relapses after medication PLUS family therapy treatment.
so, your psychologist is way off in their assessment of the possibility of full recovery.
the overwhelming majority of those who do not recover fully live normal lives supported with medication.
Since mood disorders have biological, social, and cognitive dimension therapy is very important in order to learn to avoid biological triggers and deal with stress in life.
If your quesition was about medication only, the variety of choices is very large and I do not know what will work specifically for you. your doctor I am sure has a better idea. I recovered on SSRIs, my neighbour on MAOIs.
best wishes
mila
Posted by paula on July 30, 2001, at 21:31:04
In reply to Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 29, 2001, at 22:57:34
I think it can be very hard for those of us who
are inveterate boot-strap-pullers to allow folks
to help. It's so important to get input--therapy,
meds, whatever. But to "get better" I think we do
have to give the boot-straps a pull every so often.
It's impossible to know when to "try harder" and
when to relinquish control and ask for--and get--
outside help. Because it's impossible to know,
there is, therefore, no right answer. Just keep
experimenting.Guess it's pretty obvious that I'm talkin' to myself
here. Your situation sounds extremely familiar to
me (only without the friendly religious intervention).Paula
>
> I could use anyone's imput on this. I cautiously
> revealed to my friend that I suffer from clinical
> depression and that I have had this illness since
> childhood. He responded to me by saying that
> any biological illness can be cured. He said
> that we create our illnesses and that we can
> think our way out of them. He went on further
> to state that Jesus said that if a person has
> the faith of a mustard seed, he can move
> mountains. I told him that my therapist who is
> a clinical psychologist said that there is no
> cure for depression. He told me that I should
> quit my therapist and go back to my hypnotherapist
> because my hypnotherapist said that major
> depression can be cured. This is so frustrating
> to me because my psychotherapist just recently
> had to spend a whole hour with me just to get
> me out of denial; there has been a part of me
> who has always felt that I should be strong and
> just think my way out of my illness. What do you
> all think about this?
>
> Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 31, 2001, at 0:09:59
In reply to Re: Possible trouble with a friend., posted by Kingfish on July 30, 2001, at 19:28:51
> Glenn:
>
> This phrase caught my eye:
>
> "had to spend a whole hour with me just to get
> me out of denial"
>
> because it was something I struggled with for a decade +. I went from Dr. to Dr. trying to find a physical cause for my depression and mania, and there just was none. I could not believe it could be mental, and that mental illness could be biological in nature. I could not let myself see its prevalence in my family because they were not open to it.
>
> My family is very religious - I am not now. There seem to be two approaches from Evangelicals at least, and I think Christianity in general - one is very loving and supportive, the way I would think Jesus was. The other is very judgemental and harsh. I studied the Bible extensively as a child, and am convinced Christ would not want us to suffer. He would have wanted us to be happy, and if taking medication to correct a problem in our brains is a necessary part of that, so be it. I read a post once on Beliefnet by an Evangelical woman who was haunted by depression and her church told her it was sinful to take AD's. She found a Christian clinic and started Prozac, and her life was turned around. She liked to think of it as a gift from God.
>
> Anyway, all this rambling comes to a point. Because I gave in finally and decided to look at my manic depression from a different prespective, to stop denying that there was something wrong, and that I couldn't cure it by myself, or with antibiotics, I found a great relief. I gently opened the discussion with my family and found a very nice response, even though they are, again, still very religious.
>
> I feel firmly now that depression is an imbalance of some sort, though it's not quite clear yet. The meds give us a chance to be strong and healthy and that is what Christ, or Buddha, or we ourselves would and should want from this life.
>
> - K.
>
> P.S. Sorry, I ended up using this as a confessional, didn't I?;)Thank you so much, Kingfish; I needed to
hear what you had to say. I've been surprised
to realize that I still think from time to
time that I have some sort of character
flaw and that that is the cause of my illness.
Thanks again, Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on July 31, 2001, at 0:12:59
In reply to Re:cures, Glenn, posted by mila on July 30, 2001, at 20:57:19
>
> > I am curious; what cures for major
> > depression have you heard about?
> >
> >
> > Glenn
>
> Hi Glenn,
>
> 85% of patients with major depression fully recover without relapse (4 years observation) if treated by medication or ECT or Surgery PLUS IPT (intepersonal therapy)and CBT (cognitive-behavioral therapy). Medication of course should be tailored to a person individually.
>
> 56 % of bipolar patients fully recover without relapses after medication PLUS family therapy treatment.
>
> so, your psychologist is way off in their assessment of the possibility of full recovery.
>
> the overwhelming majority of those who do not recover fully live normal lives supported with medication.
>
> Since mood disorders have biological, social, and cognitive dimension therapy is very important in order to learn to avoid biological triggers and deal with stress in life.
>
> If your quesition was about medication only, the variety of choices is very large and I do not know what will work specifically for you. your doctor I am sure has a better idea. I recovered on SSRIs, my neighbour on MAOIs.
>
> best wishes
> milaThank you for the info, Mila.
This is the end of the thread.
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