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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 15:46:35
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying, posted by Ted on March 30, 2001, at 11:44:07
Yes, I think I can relate, often, especially when panic attacks or otherwise, I am scared that the accelerated breathing/heart rate I get, will cause me to die soon. As well, when I feel this way, I seriously worry about my parents dying w/all of their pressures, yet my fear is soooooooooo irrational. I am too stupid to bring this up to my doc/pdoc. On other days, I am not so afraid.
Posted by Janice1 on March 30, 2001, at 22:24:54
In reply to Phobia of death/dying, posted by carisa on March 30, 2001, at 0:37:31
Carisa,
I had this. It was closly related to panic attacks and anxiety for me. When I really examined it, I realized what I was afraid of was the process of dying (not death, not life). I was afraid of the pain that I imagined I would feel while I was dying. So I did a bit of research about dying and death, until I realized that death is very rarely painful these days.
Then I began exploring and strengthening my spiritual and religious beliefs, often through psychics and mediums.
Anyway now I have very little doubt about life after death.
so what exactly is it that you are afraid of?
Good luck,
Janice
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 22:33:06
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying, posted by Janice1 on March 30, 2001, at 22:24:54
Yes, yes! I am afraid of the process/pain, not death. anxiety only helps to anticipate an irrational fear like such. Anticipation of how I would die or that I would be beaten to death by BULLIES, etc. Partly b/c, I am easy to pick on thus, I am a target for injury or so I thought. I actually WANTED to die at one point b/c panic attacks/life was getting the better of me. Well, the bad news or good news is, I am still around.
Posted by Janice1 on March 31, 2001, at 18:42:17
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying-Janice1, posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 22:33:06
>hi Dubya,
That's the ironic part! I've been suicidal many times in my life also.
As for the process of pain, I have a feeling that if you were to die in such a terrible manner such as getting beaten up, that our bodies are designed to pass out after tolerating only so much pain. As you get older, you will hopefully be worrying less and less about bullies - they don't really exist in the adult world that I've seen (as long as you stay out of jail :+)
Janice
Posted by Dubya on April 1, 2001, at 1:59:56
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying-Dubya, posted by Janice1 on March 31, 2001, at 18:42:17
Yes, I am scared now of bullies in the adult world. Sadly though, I never can admit to anyone outside of this forum that I want to hurt myself or even have acute thoughts about taking my life. I am scared my doc will put me in a psych ward or my parents will have heart attacks upon finding out that their 20yr old "baby" is unhappy. For that matter, I think I even have an eating disorder but, I am too embarrassed to admit this too to doc b/c why me. As a result, I am only on a low dose (30mg now, up from 10 & 20mg). I have put myself at 60mg w/out doc's permission to get well. Biggest thing to me is to be 'skinny/low body fat' than having lots of muscle. I really want to have < 12% body fat. I am currently at 18% body fat. I am 5'3, 154lbs (including muscles & fat). I think I am crazy though to even worry about being or getting fat. I am so afraid to get picked on that I would rather make myself suffer than to let others make me suffer.
Posted by mila on April 1, 2001, at 8:37:48
In reply to reply to Janice1, posted by Dubya on April 1, 2001, at 1:59:56
Dubya,
it seems that you believe that you condition is serious enough to require hospitalization. maybe you should tell your doctor ( or another doctor) about your apprehension, and about how exactly hospitalization scares you. It is better that way than telling them non-verbally, by cutting yourself or having < 12% of body fat.
talking about it here is a good rehearsal. i admire you. you are very courageous and obviously care about your parent's well-being. have you thought, Dubya, that now, that you are 20, it is time for you to let them be your partners, and work together on your well-being? truth might be as scary for them as it is for you, but to my knowledge it has never killed anyone. After initial shock, they might help you to pull toghether some resources that would've been unavailable to you on your own.
mila
Posted by Cecilia on April 2, 2001, at 3:17:52
In reply to Phobia of death/dying, posted by carisa on March 30, 2001, at 0:37:31
> I have recently been diagnosed with thantophobia. It is the obsessive fear of death/dying. I am taking Celexa for it. I guess I would just like to talk to someone about this... to know i'm not alone. Please reply if you suffer from this condition. I am desperate for someone who can relate.
>
> CarisaCarisa, you are definitely not alone. I think everybody is afraid of death to some degree, I think it`s probably partly an innate biological instinct (in both animals and humans) but of course as humans we add to the innate instinct to flee from danger our thoughts and fears about what will happen during and after death. For me, I obsess sometimes about the pain and helplessness associated with death, and sometimes I have obsessive fear of the fear, imagining a prolonged illness with every day filled with the terror of knowing it will happen soon. Most of all though, I`m afraid of what will happen after death, intellectually I don`t really think there is any afterlife, but emotionally I`m terrified there is, I`ve had so much pain in my life and the more pain I`m in the more I feel like I deserve it and will be punished even more after I die. Also I get this totally invaded feeling, imagininng my sisters sorting through my stuff. imagining, if there IS any sort of consciousness after death. hearing people talk about me. Or I start thinking I`ll be told I failed this life and will have to do it all over again. Of course I know all these thoughts are irrational, but the trouble is no one alive has any clue what WILL happen.
Posted by dj on April 2, 2001, at 9:08:49
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying-Dubya, posted by Janice1 on March 31, 2001, at 18:42:17
>As you get older, you will hopefully be worrying less and less about bullies - they don't really exist in the adult world that I've seen (as long >as you stay out of jail :+)
Janice,
Ahhh, but they do exist outside of jails, often in the workplaces and often more subtle and for more on that and how to potentially deal with it check out: http://www.kindacts.net/kolleaguesviolence.htm
dj
Posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:27:07
In reply to Re: Bullies » Janice1, posted by dj on April 2, 2001, at 9:08:49
> >As you get older, you will hopefully be worrying less and less about bullies - they don't really exist in the adult world that I've seen (as long >as you stay out of jail :+)
>
> Janice,
>
> Ahhh, but they do exist outside of jails, often in the workplaces and often more subtle and for more on that and how to potentially deal with it check out: http://www.kindacts.net/kolleaguesviolence.htm
>
> djHi dj,
sometimes I wonder if North America is becoming so super-sanitized we won't be able to express any emotion. Maybe one day, we will all talk in monotone voices and wear plastic smiles 24/7.
Hope you're well,
Janice
Posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
In reply to reply to Janice1, posted by Dubya on April 1, 2001, at 1:59:56
> Hi Dubya,
Sorry to hear things are so bad. Others may disagree, but I don't really believe bullies exist in the adult world. This all sounds like it is closely tied into your body image for you.
You should probably tell your doctor about your thoughts of hurting yourself and killing yourself. He/she won't tell your parents, and I doubt you'd have to go to the hospital, but there is no point to minimizing your symptoms to your doctor. Seriously, having suicidal tendacies won't end you up in the hospital if you don't want it to.
Anyway Dubya,
I wish I could be of some real help,
I hope I didn't sound preachy,
Janice
Posted by coral on April 5, 2001, at 9:07:18
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
"...I don't really believe bullies exist in the adult world." Sorry to take an opposing viewpoint but as an HR consultant, I can verify that bullies are very much active today. Take a look at the routine hazing on campuses, or work environments where some employees are routinely subjected to derogatory remarks and actions. The bullies prey on individuals because they're different, (frequently based on race, sex or cultural differences) or often, just because they can. Outside of work, hate crimes are nothing but examples of bullies.
Posted by Ted on April 5, 2001, at 10:38:14
In reply to Re: Phobia of death/dying-Dubya, posted by Janice1 on March 31, 2001, at 18:42:17
Janice,
NOT SO! I had two employers which were run by absolute bullies, no matter how you look at it. I sincerely believe a lot of my problems today began 13 years ago while working for the first of the bullies.
Ted
>As you get older, you will hopefully be worrying
>less and less about bullies - they don't really
>exist in the adult world that I've seen (as long
>as you stay out of jail :+)
>
> Janice
Posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:39:32
In reply to dj - Bullies, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:27:07
Janice,
Always great to hear from you. Love your thoughful, graceful e-comments. Your concern about cultural over-sanitization is a justifiable one. Read an article today which noted how asthma may be the result of kids living in too clean environments and not being exposed to natural environs which are full of microbes, viri, etc. which we need to stimulate our immune systems.
Depression in my view, more and more, is an attempt to sanitize feeling by attempting to stuff it and the way out is to re-connect with those emotions - the good, the bad and the ugly accept them for what they are and deal with them. Am doing that more and more myself and it's making a huge difference....
Having dealt with bullies myself on occasion I know from my experience that if I felt truly intimidated I would try to make myself invisible by clamping down on my emotions when I would have been better off expressing them directly. However, we all learn in our own ways and at our own pace...
Hope you are doing well, too.
dj
Posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:47:21
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
Bullies exist in all age groups and walks of life. Petty office and academic politics is often about bullying. Spouse abusers are bullies... Cops are sometimes bullies and often are dealing with bullies... Perhaps, J1, you've just learned to disarm them... However, my sense is that Dubya attempts to disarm them by bullying himself - putting himself down and hurting himself before someone else can - learned response, not a good one, and it can be unlearned as soon as one is willing to stand up for oneself.
The opposite extreme is suicide where one shuts oneself down entirely so others can't hurt you. But who's hurting whom, here? Suicide is the ultimate form of passive aggression both towards oneself and those who one is unwilling to stand up to and/or be vunerable with....
Posted by Dubya on April 5, 2001, at 12:05:38
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
Phew, a sigh of relief! Actually, I try not to be the 'me' me, I try be the 'me' I would like to be. In doing so, I am able to be more successful in school, etc... Being the real me, I am annoying, say stupid things, talk too much, unmotivated, allergic to everything and need medicines to control it, indifferent, shy (social phobic), anxious and a slow poke. In being the 'me' I want to be, I end up feeling a need to please people, to be extra nice, academically successful, not shy, not allergic, more anxious.
Sounds weird, that's why I am messed up b/c, I am afraid to be me.
Posted by Dubya on April 5, 2001, at 12:06:57
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya, posted by Janice1 on April 4, 2001, at 20:40:54
I would be a failure (from experience) so I'd rather be the 'me' I would like to be, I feel more successful, feel that I am living a fun, fast-paced life. Funny thing is, I am almost as responsible as when I am the 'me'I want to be. SO it seems as if I brought this depression, anxiety, OCD on myself. Janice, or anyone else in this forum, please let me know if you ever feel that there is the 'you' that you want to be and the 'you' that you are.
Posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 12:34:07
In reply to Janice1 2/2, posted by Dubya on April 5, 2001, at 12:06:57
What you are talking about, D, is pitting your real self against your ideal self. If you can't accept yourself as you are, while workinig on becoming who you want to be then you are setting yourself up for a lot of self-hate - depression & anxiety are only flags for what's going on beneath the surface.
If you haven't checked it out already go do some reading at http://www.undoingdepression.com .
http://www.pdseminars.com also has some interesting discussion of these dynamics in their course descriptions - see "Disengaging Depression" and "Come Alive" descriptors - and some of the articles in their Shen newsletter section and in the books they sell there - particularly "A Manual for Life".However understanding intellectually is one thing. Getting it in your gut is another. Good counselling and good friends can help there... but first you need to befriend yourself. Remember: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."!!!!
Posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 1:11:41
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya » Janice1, posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 10:47:21
Wow, is that true? Perhaps I am putting myself down because I was bullied so much that my natural defense now is such? I didn't even realize this until you brought it up, I am glad you did. Perhaps, that is one of the main reasons I am obssessive-compulsive, anxious and perhaps depressed. Through my 'messed' up experiences, I have basically created my depressive problems and am not able to deal with them properly. Am I really unwilling to stick up for myself?
> However, my sense is that Dubya attempts to disarm them by bullying himself - putting himself down and hurting himself before someone else can - learned response, not a good one, and it can be unlearned as soon as one is willing to stand up for oneself.
Posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 1:16:15
In reply to Re: Janice1 2/2 » Dubya, posted by dj on April 5, 2001, at 12:34:07
May I ask DJ, what you mean by, "while workinig on becoming who you want to be then you are setting yourself up for a lot of self-hate - depression & anxiety are only flags for what's going on beneath the surface."?
-who (psychiatrist, family doctor?) can help me (counselling-wise) to help me change my messed idealations?
>Good counselling and good friends can help there... but first you need to befriend yourself. Remember: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."!!!!
Posted by dj on April 6, 2001, at 1:59:54
In reply to DJ, I must admit, you have very good advice, posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 1:16:15
What I meant D. is that depression, anxiety and o.c. are the results of the self-hate that you've expressed here at various times. As you learn to practice more compassion for yourself, you will suffer less, though you will still experience pain as we all do. The trick is not to embrace the pain as you are doing but to acknowledge it for what it is and let it go... And a good counsellor or friend is someone you trust, are open with and are willing to learn from and with...
g'night!
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 6, 2001, at 14:28:39
In reply to Re: reply to Dubya re: bullies, posted by coral on April 5, 2001, at 9:07:18
As someone who has been bullied at work with continual abuse over years, I can confirm that bullies occur in adult life. i find peer pressue still exists the same too, but we're hopefully better prepared to deal with it in adult hood...
Bullies will be bullies in one form or another all their lives in my opinion.. a bullying parent, a bullying manager, a bullying spouse.. the list is endless.
Nikki
Posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 19:58:41
In reply to No bullies in adult world??, posted by NikkiT2 on April 6, 2001, at 14:28:39
I am really sick of bullies, maybe I let them take over my life or maybe, but they seem to make a clean get away w/ their attitude/behaviour. Of course, that is my distorted perception.
Posted by dj on April 6, 2001, at 23:50:46
In reply to How come it seems that bullies get away w/things?, posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 19:58:41
> Of course, that is my distorted perception.
There you go, beating yourself up again...
Posted by Dubya on April 7, 2001, at 1:14:40
In reply to Re: How come it seems that bullies get away w/things?, posted by dj on April 6, 2001, at 23:50:46
> > Of course, that is my distorted perception.
>
> There you go, beating yourself up again...That's true, I guess I can agree w/you on that!
Posted by Adam on April 7, 2001, at 15:54:15
In reply to How come it seems that bullies get away w/things?, posted by Dubya on April 6, 2001, at 19:58:41
I think bullies do exist. Some grow out of it when entering adulthood, some don't.
It's difficult to resist the attacks of bullies. If you're not a bully, the behavior of a bully towards you is almost incomprehensible. That may be true even if you ARE a bully.
Some people are just plain stronger/smarter/prettier/whatever than others, or they are convinced they are so, and thus are also able to convince others. They may have status, due to innate qualities or social standing, that gives them power over others. If they use their gifts to hurt other people, they can bully very effectively.
Really terrible bullies may be sociopaths. I read an interesting article in SciAm in which the author hypothesizes that those with violently sociopathic qualities are often not suffering from poor self-esteem. On the contrary, they have pathologically high self-esteem, and feel perfectly entitled to do the terrible things they do to others. Combine a sociopath with someone suffering from depression and terrible feelings of inadequacy, and you've got a uniquely horrid recipe for pain.
I think the best you can do is avoid such people. You probably can't change them or get them to play fair with you. If people you deal with hurt you for their own gratification, leave them. You are not the sick one. They are.
> I am really sick of bullies, maybe I let them take over my life or maybe, but they seem to make a clean get away w/ their attitude/behaviour. Of course, that is my distorted perception.
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