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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 21:06:36
In reply to Re: drones and non drones » Phil15, posted by allisonm on February 3, 2001, at 20:44:15
Yeah, you better described them then i did. They are out there, and in a way it would be cool to be one, in fact whenever i drink, my friends say i become a "drone", and people actually listen to what i have to say(i think its cause im not saying something weird, but still). Not that i encourage drinking but..it can be fun, in small amounts at the right time... Anyway, my friends and i see drones in our every day lives and just love to drive them crazy by telling them our theories. My old best friend was a drone, but then he became "too cool for me" and then started making fun of me. He was a really fun kid to hang around when i was into my "social mode" and he knew where all the parties were and stuff. But he definatly wasn't the type for my "intellectual modes" and got pissed off with me when i brought stuff up.
Posted by allisonm on February 3, 2001, at 21:32:47
In reply to Re: drones and non drones, posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 21:06:36
Ok, then I know what you're talking about. It isn't that they're stupid at all. Many are very smart. I know some not-too-smart people who are not drones -- as eccentric as they come. It's just a way different mindset. It's a conscious (or ingrained) decision not to think. It's as though they got put on autopilot or something. And I do know some drones who are or have been depressed. But with the drones that I know, the depression usually stems from some crisis -- pending divorce, husband lost his job, and so forth. It seems less biological. But I admit that my observations are of a small number of people. And I should stress that not everyone who lives in a beige house is a drone. Again, it's this mindset...
Posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 22:12:07
In reply to Re: drones and non drones, posted by allisonm on February 3, 2001, at 21:32:47
yeah, they are so steady in their life and unwavering. Their are all types of drones, drones tend to get more accomplished to what they are meant to be for... Like say you have a nerdy drone, he will be very smart, and you can have a religious drone (some priests) that will be so into religion and like never loose interest in it.
Before some friends and i classified drones, we observed that we seemed to have "modes". Like right now i am in "intellectual and religion mode", yet tomorow i might be in "depressed mode" and then next friday ill be in "social party mode". When i am in my "social party mode" i will think im a weirdo in this mode. Drones stay in one mode all the time it seems, and non drones cant make up their mind or for my matter cant even acuratly predict what mode i'll be in really.
And the weird thing is, is that i am not schitzofrenic, not bipolar, or any other thing that would hint multiple personality syndrome. My psychiatrist thought that i was bipolar at first but later found out that i just "think alot".Alot of my friends are the same and i know that dont have any psycological problems other than minor depression.
Do u notice this too?
Posted by Todd on February 3, 2001, at 22:14:22
In reply to Re: drones and non drones » Phil15, posted by allisonm on February 3, 2001, at 20:44:15
I agree with so much of what you say, Allison. And I get your drift too, Phil. I just wonder, along with DJ, if you are being a bit "superior" here. Most likely you're not consciously, but subconsciously that feeling that you have so far in your life "worked out" this much can make you come off as feeling superior. It's so very easy to project that, we've all done it. It feels GREAT. You spoke about you and your friend driving the drones crazy - what about gently enlightening them? You're creating negative energy. If what makes you feel great alienates you from others, then not only is it not so great after all, but you start to turn off people that could really benefit from your point of view. Your wisdom becomes useless, because you have turned yourself into an island. Which is half the cause of depression, as far as I am concerned. We're all interconnected, and really cannot exist inside and outside of society at the same time. We all affect each other's lives constantly. Infinitely.
Going back to the drone theory, I really think that drones are the weaker people. People with depression are much stronger, I believe. Which is not to say that people who suffer depression are the only stronger ones. We are all the same deep down inside, all wonderfully beautiful and whole in our imperfections. Problem is, drones are terrified of their imperfections. Have any idea why? It would make them Horribly Depressed! Drones can't handle that kind of introspection, because the fear of finding something horrible would literally crush them. So instead of acknowledging their imperfections, they live their lives in a state of denial, trying to make themselves look good and projecting their own insecurities onto everyone else. Nothing they do is passionate or exciting because they have cut themselves off from their own core. They seem happy to us and look happy to us, but they really aren't. It's a shallow and fear-based happiness.
Depressed people, on the other hand, are more than willing to acknowledge their own imperfections. Problem with us is that we also accept the ones projected onto us by the drones! That's what continues the negative feedback loop. We believe the drones, and we don't believe in ourselves. We are so much stronger for having the guts to go inside ourselves and to feel our pain deeply. We think and feel so much more deeply than the drones, and are very in touch with our core. But we keep believing that the core is rotten, because we accept the reality perpetuated by the drones. We keep trying to love ourselves and be ourselves in all of our imperfections, but that scares the hell out of the drones. It reminds them of their own dark side that they are too terrified to confront. They insist that everything is great and wonderful, and we keep believing it. We accept that life should be perfect, and drive ourselves further into depression because of our failure to achieve that "perfectness." We hold on to the belief that there shouldn't be pain in our lives, and keep invalidating ourselves as we try to crawl out of our misery.
What we have to discover, and once discovered, remember, is that we ALL hurt, we ALL suffer. Every single person who walks this planet. And it's all completely natural and perfectly HUMAN. We all have to reconnect to our core and allow ourselves to feel our pain in a loving way. I really believe that as we each get better at this, we can allow others in our lives the same space. With perserverance, what you'll find is not a rotten core at all, but a wonderfully beautiful one that was put on this earth to shine brightly. Aren't we all wounded healers anyway?
Peace and love.Todd
Posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 22:30:28
In reply to Wounded Healers, posted by Todd on February 3, 2001, at 22:14:22
wow...that really made alot of sense. My psyciatrist also said that i isolate myself and make it hard for myself to meet new people. But we haven't yet figured out as to the reason why i do it... I have said because i think weird thoughts, but then he tells me that i only think them because i am not "socially with it" and therefor have to think instead of talking. it is a viscious cycle.
Anyway, i still do think there are drones and non-drones. Like for example a drone would almost definatly not be discussing as deep as you are. But thanks to you my exact viewpoint of the reason for there being has changed. Really, it is just because people have different personalities, and it seems like there is a remarkable line that seperates the two groupings of types of personalities. Drones and Non-drones.
Posted by Todd on February 3, 2001, at 22:44:15
In reply to Re: Wounded Healers-wow, posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 22:30:28
"Not socially with it?" Your shrink sounds like a drone himself. Do you like him? Maybe you should reserve him for providing your meds and find a more human therapist to talk to. I'm very honored that you took something positive from my post. Makes it all worthwhile. Once again, peace and love.
Todd
Posted by dj on February 3, 2001, at 23:30:41
In reply to uh..no dj..., posted by phil15 on February 3, 2001, at 19:54:40
I am not saying we live in a perfect or just society Phill5. I am saying that those who choose to not excessively dwell on the imperfections in our society are probably healthy overall than those who do obsess and isolate because the world does not meet their standards. Truly healthy people attempt to make positive changes in it, within the scope of their abilities.
There are drones in all segments of society and probably more fo them are depressed than not I figure. Evil is evil and dwelling excessively on the evils in our world is not healthy or useful unless you are going to do something about it, besides making negative judgments of those you think you are superior to... Doing something about true evils is healthy...or just moving on to healthier foci.
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 7:52:08
In reply to Re: uh..no dj... » phil15, posted by dj on February 3, 2001, at 23:30:41
> I am not saying we live in a perfect or just society Phill5. I am saying that those who choose to not excessively dwell on the imperfections in our society are probably healthy overall than those who do obsess and isolate because the world does not meet their standards. Truly healthy people attempt to make positive changes in it, within the scope of their abilities.
>
> There are drones in all segments of society and probably more fo them are depressed than not I figure. Evil is evil and dwelling excessively on the evils in our world is not healthy or useful unless you are going to do something about it, besides making negative judgments of those you think you are superior to... Doing something about true evils is healthy...or just moving on to healthier foci.
-------
For me, it's not a matter of feeling superior or the world not meeting my standards. It's more a matter of feeling that I wasn't made right, I wasn't made for this world, I don't fit in. For whatever reason I don't share the same interests as many other people, so I keep to myself. I have spent a lot of time alone, especially as a child. I always have been introverted. The thing about drones that I have puzzled about is how they can live their lives in this way, which appears so very normal -- whatever that is. How do they do it? How did I get on this other path? I marvel at their contentment because I don't have it.
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:10:12
In reply to Wounded Healers, posted by Todd on February 3, 2001, at 22:14:22
Todd,
Thanks. That was beautifully said. I agree completely.
As I said in my post replying to dj, it's not so much a feeling of superiority over drones and the rest of society as a feeling that I don't fit in this world, that I wasn't made right.
I have one question: If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, can you clarify or reconcile your 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs on the drone theory with your opening paragraph about feeling superior and negative energy. Does your own opinion of drones make you feel superior?
Phil, Todd, dj, where do theory and belief end and feelings of superiority begin?
Thanks and peace,
Allison
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:42:54
In reply to drones and non drones, posted by Phil15 on February 2, 2001, at 20:58:20
Is ambition and/or envy a part of being a drone?
Is learning that you cannot (for whatever reason) compete in the realm of drones part of not being one and then does this lead to defining them in the ways that we have in this thread?
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:43:48
In reply to Re: uh..no dj..., posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 7:52:08
> For me, it's not a matter of feeling superior or the world not meeting my standards. It's more a matter of feeling that I wasn't made right, I wasn't made for this world, I don't fit in. For whatever reason I don't share the same interests as many other people, so I keep to myself. I have spent a lot of time alone, especially as a child. I always have been introverted. The thing about drones that I have puzzled about is how they can live their lives in this way, which appears so very normal -- whatever that is. How do they do it? How did I get on this other path? I marvel at >their contentment because I don't have it.
Alison,
This I can relate to, though I wish I did not and parts of what Phil and Todd wrote I can also relate to, though I also wish I did not.
The use of the word drone to characterize those who are content and seemingly non-questioning is what I believe to be a negative judgment that I don't think is appropriate. Contentment is a state to seek, rather than condemn, I believe, and I consider it to be a superior state to relentless questioning and obsessing as it seems to be from where more happiness springs.
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:25
In reply to another question, OK two or three, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:42:54
> Is ambition and/or envy a part of being a >drone?
I'll leave it up to others to debate that as I don't agree with the concept, as stated. Here, for instance, is a story from a paper today about folks that I assume Phill5 would define as drones, and how they dealt with some pretty tough circumstances. I don't think I would adjust as well, at this point, though I may have more so in the past.
"The power of friendship
As his body begins to fail him, pals lend him strength Damian Inwood The Province
NANAIMO -- All his life, casino pit boss Freddie Wilson has been a popular, happy-go-lucky winner.Playing baseball and hockey, entering sand-castle competitions, going fishing or swimming in the Nanaimo River, Wilson has always had a great time.
But then the friendly, 36-year-old family man was dealt a losing hand in the shape of the incurable Lou Gehrig's disease.
Tonight, Nanaimo is rallying around him, with the first of two Friends of Freddie benefits to raise money to help Wilson, wife Shannon and three young kids.
"I just don't know where to begin to thank people," says Wilson, who now walks with a cane. "I found out I had the disease in late November. I was feeling a little shaky -- mostly weak in my legs and losing strength in my arms."
Wilson's closest friend, Kevin Haslam, decided to do something to help the buddy he's known for more than 20 years.
"I was crushed when I found out," says Haslam, 31, who also works at the Great Canadian Casino. "It's tragic, him being such a nice guy. But you don't have any choice in the matter -- you are dealt the cards and you have to play the hand."
Tonight, more than 200 people will gather at Cavallotti Hall for a dinner and auction to raise money.
"The town has really got behind it," adds Haslam. "We've been canvassing for donations for our auction and we've been overwhelmed by how much stuff we've been receiving."
Haslam is now setting up a trust fund through a Nanaimo credit union.
"We hope to raise between $10,000 and $15,000, mostly for his wife and kids. They don't have much.
"Ideally, we would like to see him get a down payment on a house so he'll know his wife and kids will have a roof over their heads."
On March 4, at the Queen's Hotel in downtown Nanai-mo, another friend, Robert Ashton, is organizing an eight-band benefit.
"I've known him for at least 10 years," says Ashton, who works security at both the casino and the pub. "It was hard to believe and everybody was really upset. The main reason I am doing this for Freddie is that I know he would do the same for me."
Two of the Nanaimo musicians donating their time got together with Wilson last week at the hotel's pub.
David Gogo, the blues guitarist voted Musician of the Year 2000 at the West Coast Music Awards, will bring his band to play at the benefit.
"I have known Fred for 10 or 12 years. He's a hardline Montreal Canadiens hockey fan, as am I," Gogo says. "When I had my first band, he and Shannon came to Alberta to see us play a couple of times. He's a real solid guy. It's a shitty thing to happen."
Another friend is Billy Hicks, drummer and "ringmaster" for the band Wunderbread.
"Nanaimo is a strong, tight-knit community," Hicks says. "It's going to be a good evening."
Haslam calls his friend an outgoing, friendly man who has no enemies -- and a great baseball player who suddenly found himself unable to get around:
"We all thought his knee was a sports injury until November." That's when Wilson learned he had Lou Gehrig's disease.
Wilson loves the Habs team so much he named his son, who's now three, Dryden. "I ran the name past my wife and she liked it," Wilson grins.
Completing the family are eight-month-old twin daughters Rachael and Bryanna.
"We have our up days and our down days," Wilson chuckles. "The twins are crawling -- they are just getting forward gear. Dryden goes hell-bent for leather. He has two speeds -- stop and fast."
THE DISEASE
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) is known as "Lou Gehrig's disease" after star New York Yankees baseball player who died of it in 1941.
It's a progressive, degenerative disease that attacks nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord. Patients eventually become totally paralyzed but their minds usually remain unaffected.
Renowned scientist Dr. Stephen Hawking has suffered the disease for more than 30 years."
Is Hawking a drone, as so defined above??
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:34
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » allisonm, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:43:48
Drone wasn't my word. I agree it can connote a negative image, sometimes deserved and other times not at all.
Some people seem to me to be living in the wrong direction for the wrong reasons (wealth, keeping up with the Joneses, etc.), with an uncharitable attitude toward others, who wear blinders so that they cannot see the rest of their world.
There are other people who don't go that path, who are quite normal, simple and happy. They don't have any intention of climbing the highest mountain, of making the most money, of putting others down. They just live life the way they were taught without questioning it because that's the way it should be and has always been. Certainly there are other kinds of people, but this is what I picture when I think of "drones." I find I fit with neither group.
I am happy to use an alternative word without negative connotations. Suggestions?
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:00:55
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » dj, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:34
> I am happy to use an alternative word without > negative connotations. Suggestions?
strivers, the status quo, the disaffected vs the dissatisfied or something along those lines perhaps?
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:05:04
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:25
> Is Hawking a drone, as so defined above??
>
No. And I don't think the above story a definition that is necessarily that of a "drone."
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:08:28
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » allisonm, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:00:55
I think the status quo would work.
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:09:37
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:05:04
> > Is Hawking a drone, as so defined above??
> >
> No. And I don't think the above story a >definition that is necessarily that of a "drone."Who would you describe as a drone, given the above theory - Donald Trump, his ex-wife, Bill Clinton, Hilary or ???
Posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:40:08
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:09:37
I don't know Donald Trump, Marla Maples, or Bill and Hillary.
Of the people I do know, I would consider my father's sister and her husband and their two daughters; my best friend's brother and sister-in-law; my good friend and college roommate; a man I supervise; and my next-door neighbor representational of the status quo. With the exception of my aunt, uncle and two cousins, I have nothing against these people and most I like very much. They just live and think differently than I do.
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 12:50:24
In reply to Re: uh..no dj... » phil15, posted by dj on February 3, 2001, at 23:30:41
in response to the below, i definatly agree with you there. I think i would rather not be getting into these things but u gotta admit it is interesting to discuss. Anyway i do want to change the surrounding in a positive way, but first i need peoples input like yours as constructive critisism, u know... No one person has all the answers because each person has a unique outlook on life.
I am not saying we live in a perfect or just society Phill5. I am saying that those who choose to not excessively dwell on the imperfections in our society are probably healthy overall than those who do obsess and isolate because the world does not meet their standards. Truly healthy people attempt to make positive changes in it, within the scope of their abilities.
There are drones in all segments of society and probably more fo them are depressed than not I figure. Evil is evil and dwelling excessively on the evils in our world is not healthy or useful unless you are going to do something about it, besides making negative judgments of those you think you are superior to... Doing something about true evils is healthy...or just moving on to healthier foci.
Posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 13:10:20
In reply to i agree dj..., posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 12:50:24
> ... i do want to change the surrounding in a positive way, but first i need peoples input like yours as constructive critisism, u know... No one person has all the answers because each person >has a unique outlook on life.
Discussion and airing and refining of insights and outlooks is a good place to start and evolve from Phill5. Good luck on your journey of engagement and positive change, on whichever path you choose.
Here's an interesting quote to ponder from the book "Ambition, the Secret Passion" by Joseph Epstein: "We do not choose to be born. We do not choose our parents. We do not choose our historical epoch, or the country of our birth, or the immediate circumstances of our upbringing. < though some would aruge that > We do not, most of us, choose to die: nor do we choose the time or conditions of our death. But within all this realm of choicelessness, we do choose how we shall live: courageously or in cowardice, honorably or dishonorably, with purpose or in drift. We decide what is important and trivial in our life. We decide that what makes us significant is either what we do or what we refuse to do. But no matter how indifferent the universe may be to our choices and decisions, these choices and decisions are ours to make. We decide. We choose. And as we decide and choose so our lives are formed. In the end, forming our own identity is what ambition is all about."
Posted by Todd on February 4, 2001, at 13:22:58
In reply to Re: Wounded Healers, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:10:12
Hi, Allison. Sure, you can play devil's advocate. We all need to challenge each other that way. Does my own opinion of drones make me feel superior? To be honest, yeah, sometimes. We all lead our lives searching for wisdom, searching for the knowledge that will allow ourselves to live our lives with fulfillment and content. When we arrive at basic truths that seem to us to be so self-evident, and they fail to be perceived as such by "drones," it's very easy to slip into that feeling of superiority, that feeling that we "know better" and therefore "are better." Which, of course, is illusory. Any feeling of superiority we might feel over anyone else, although immediately gratifying, is always illusory, and always fades. Because it just ain't the truth. After all, we are all the same. The minute we try to convince ourselves otherwise for whatever reason is the minute we have made ourselves an island and increase pain in our lives. It's the illusion that we are all separate that I believe contributes most to the pain and suffering that we all feel.
Let's stop using the word "drone" here. Reading all of these posts is starting to drive me crazy. They are starting to read like this: "drone blah blah drone ba drone drone blahbah drone." The terms "drone" and "non-drone" are useful for the sake of discussions like these, but when we start to overuse the terms we are losing sight of reality again. The reality that we are all human, that we all hurt, and that we all deserve to lead lives of fulfillment. If we start standing on a saltbox with a "drone" and point out their "droneness" and keep them in their "drone" state because we so desperately want to be a "non-drone," guess what we have become? Yikes, yep, you got it - A DRONE! That's pretty scary stuff. We all play both parts at different times, and it's all perfectly human.
I guess what I am saying is that if we want to affect positive change, we have to be try to patient and humble. Neither of which I am very good at. But I get more patient and more humble reminding myself constantly that we are all the same. No matter how much you may disagree with someone's negative viewpoint, the minute we come off as being superior is the minute we turn the other person off, and the illusion of separateness and pain continues.
I hope that clarifies your questions about reconciling all of my paragraphs. Now what about this feeling of "not fitting" in this world, Allison? You sound like a beautiful, thoughtful person. What makes you feel that the world would be indifferent in your absence? We NEED you to shine your light. I am sure you try to shine it as much as you can, and I am willing to bet that you touch more lives than you imagine. For every person who posts to this board, I would bet there are 5 who are just here to read. Speak your truths. We all need to hear them so we can help each other to heal. Peace and love.
Todd
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:24:17
In reply to Re: Wounded Healers » allisonm, posted by Todd on February 4, 2001, at 13:22:58
I remember a while ago when my friend mike and I first discovered that there were drones and non-drones, we definatly abused the words drone and non drone to make ourselves feel superior. At school if someone was acting "dronish" we'd be like "yep, hes a drone!" or if someone annoyed us we'de use it as like "Oh your just a drone so u have no importance anyway". It was really great... for like a month. Then we got more people involved in the thing and some of our "dronish" friends starting disliking us. And losing friends is not worth making yourself feel superior.
I still sometimes will classify people as drones in the back of my head at times, but i definatly don't express it. Because that would be working against a happier place that needs to be achieved. As one of you said, i can't remember who, that we shouldn't seperate ourselfs from these drones like i did, but we should "enlighten" them. A drone isn't a drone forever. A person can always change their lifestyle and outlook in life as in "dj's" quote said.
Anyway, they are out there, but they are neither superior nor inferior. They might have more fun or get alot accompished, and many other qualities that they do have, which is a good + thing. But then again, the non drones have their positive in questioning and deeply thinking about things, etc.
The only thing that i was arguing about the drones with, is that they tend to achieve a "superior social status". But really that isn't really important and nondrones should be happy with themselves too, even is some of them are not "socially with it".
I guess the reason i posted this here in the first place was to show other "nondrones" that there are MANY others like themselves, and that we should feel free to express our feelings and ideas.
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:40:02
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » dj, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 8:57:34
I remember when i was littler, time seemed endles and i never stopped to think about the world. I lived in the moment. I must say that these were my most happy times in my life.
For that reason i want to make it clear that when i say drone, i dont mean it at all negatively. It is a blessing to be like that in a way. In religion they have much more faith than people like me because i tend to sit there and think, hmmm...how can this be? Doesn't that contradict this? But why? etc...
Its just that we shouldn't be thinking of ourselves negatively. We have our gifts also. AlisonM portraid a perfect accountment of like what its like to not be a drone, and it can seem lonely. But you aren't alone, there many others like you but you just don't notice it cause most of us are shy and seperate ourselves from others. And that was my main reason for posting this stuff. Even if you are to think im a weirdo or something, at least then you can think, hey there is someone that has strange ideas even more so than mine. And you hopefully will realize ur not alone.
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:45:53
In reply to Re: uh..huh... » allisonm, posted by dj on February 4, 2001, at 9:00:55
I understand that you don't want to be using a negative word such as drone, but lets not use one that lowers ourselves. I mean ok we could say, they are "normal" and we are "weird". But thats just as negative because it lowering ourselves. And really, if there are so many of us, are we really weird? Ok, i have a good one that ive heard used before though. They are do'ers and we are thinkers. Although we do stuff too, we are set aback from doing to much because we think alot also.
> > I am happy to use an alternative word without > negative connotations. Suggestions?
>
> strivers, the status quo, the disaffected vs the dissatisfied or something along those lines perhaps?
Posted by phil15 on February 4, 2001, at 14:48:10
In reply to Re: another question, OK two or three, posted by allisonm on February 4, 2001, at 9:05:04
I really i think that if we use the terms doers and thinkers, it is VERY obvious that Hawkings is a thinker.
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