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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
I've been going to therapy for 17 years. I just totaled up the out-of-pocket cost. It's somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000, and that's after insurance reimbursement and tax deductions. I'm horrified. I've learned some things for sure, but heck, that's more than an Ivy League education costs.
I could retire years earlier or pay off my house with that money.
Even if I terminate immediately, I can't erase the fact of how much money I've sunk into it.
Posted by Dinah on December 21, 2010, at 22:33:00
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
Yes.
And I agree.
Posted by Daisym on December 22, 2010, at 0:27:36
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
Yes, but...
It's kind of like saying "I've spent 100,000 on food over the years, eating healthy instead of paying off my house." I'm not sure you can or should look at the dollars that way. Consider it all an investment in yourself and in your happiness.
That said, I'd some time like to add up the cost of sessions we've spent working out something that went wrong in the therapy or between us - I still don't get why I have to pay when he screws up.
Posted by jane d on December 22, 2010, at 3:02:14
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
> I've been going to therapy for 17 years. I just totaled up the out-of-pocket cost. It's somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000, and that's after insurance reimbursement and tax deductions. I'm horrified. I've learned some things for sure, but heck, that's more than an Ivy League education costs.
>
> I could retire years earlier or pay off my house with that money.
>
> Even if I terminate immediately, I can't erase the fact of how much money I've sunk into it.
>Wow. That is a disturbing calculation.
I don't have quite as many years in and my cost per year must be lower but it's probably time for me to rethink staying in therapy. It's not that I never did the math - I did. But I was starting out then and I thought of it as a short term financial commitment. I didn't anticipate being in therapy for for years and years. As a short term cost it was and is manageable. But those month to month costs do add up appallingly.
I also suspect that the actual benefit has been decreasing over time even though the relationship feels stronger and would probably be harder to sever now.
Thanks for the reminder that it's time to reevaluate.Jane
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2010, at 5:02:18
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost? » Tabitha, posted by jane d on December 22, 2010, at 3:02:14
my out of pocket costs haven't been that much... but i'd hate to calculate the costs to the goverments (of a few countries now). i'm not sure...
i recently suggested once a week instead of twice. it didn't go down well. next week he was more accepting. 'it is what is best for you not what is best for me'. honest, maybe - reassuring, not so much. i don't know what to say. gym memberships are more important to me these days, i reckon...
gym closes for 10 days over the christmas period (when i need them the most - but hell, therapist goes away, too). others are open more. i'm going to be a slut and try new gyms. and i will enjoy my self. golly gee, i will.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2010, at 5:04:46
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2010, at 5:02:18
even though they don't understand me at all:
do you have a platform and bumpers?
- sure we do
(don't)
can i do powercleans?
- sure you can
(i dont' know what that is)
do you have a squat rack?
- yes
(i don't know what that means either)fulfill my toning needs, apparently
wow... you mean i can bulk and cut at the same time and you have a wonderful, magical program that will somehow elongate my bones or shorten my tendons such that my muscles will actually grow LONGER? i'd be impressed if you weren't so full of sh*t...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2010, at 5:05:53
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by alexandra_k on December 22, 2010, at 5:04:46
but apparently there are employees handing out moist towelettes so all is well... so long as they actually train (as i know is good for me).
more like therapy than you might suppose.
Posted by Anemone on December 22, 2010, at 5:33:01
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
Hi Everyone,
I hope it's OK to join in. I agree with you all, it is a lot of money, but I think it is super important to take care of our inner selves. I like what Daisy said, it's like food.
I once made a booklet of my fantasies about my T, and one of the fantasies was to sell all my belongings, live as a homeless person, so that I could spend all my money to see her every day for the rest of my life. I love my T and my time with her is priceless!!!
I am so much happier seeing her than not. I would feel like I haven't really lived if I hadn't had therapy.
Posted by annierose on December 22, 2010, at 7:15:36
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Daisym on December 22, 2010, at 0:27:36
If this was a facebook post, I'd "like" it. I try not to add it up because it is crazy - but if you think of it in terms of other expenses that we consider necessary, or for the good of our well being, it's easier to digest.
I also like your idea of not having to pay for sessions in which the therapist causes the hurt.
Posted by Tabitha on December 22, 2010, at 12:19:38
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost? » Tabitha, posted by jane d on December 22, 2010, at 3:02:14
You know, there was some point where I did think of it as necessary medical care that I was fortunate enough to be able to afford. Then as time went on, I realized this doesn't really feel like necessary medical care any more, it's more like self-improvement education. I felt a bit guilty billing insurance for it under that definition, but oh well, might as well take advantage of the system while I can, right?
The perceived benefit has gotten even less over the years, but the cost has kept going up. Lately I find I don't even believe in the premise of a lot of it. I was always skeptical that EMDR, EFT and the long visualization sequences we did actually had any effect. Now I doubt that it's possible or necessary for me to trace the roots of my problems back to the past. How can I really identify cause and effect there? If it's not screamingly obvious I have a hard time buying it. It seems like just an imaginative exercise to make up stories about why I am the way I am.
We spend a lot of time arguing about whether my mood cycles have triggers, and if they do, whether it's possible for me to identify those triggers. After all this time, the only thing I'm relatively certain of is that there's a seasonal aspect to my cycles. This is good enough for me. If after 17 years of trying I don't see evidence for identifiable triggers, isn't it time to conclude there aren't any? I don't understand why that's even controversial.
We spend a lot of time with me arguing and rejecting advice about health & nutrition that I think is bogus, and advice about conducting my relationships that I think will likely backfire.
My life has improved somewhat, but the better I get, the less I attribute it to therapy. It seems like I've had to reject a lot of what she's taught me and learn on my own what really helps. I'd say maybe 30% of it was valuable, 40% was a waste of time, and 30% was possibly harmful.
She seems to believe that if my life has improved, it's proof the therapy works (and I guess proof I still need it). But people do grow up. I see others who have grown and had their careers and relationships improve, and had the drama level in their lives settle down, and they're not in therapy. Some people just mellow, or get better at managing.
At this point I think I'm just hooked on having that special confidante, that empathetic listener, that space to vent & go over my week. But the cost seems disproportionate for that.
Posted by pegasus on December 22, 2010, at 16:35:34
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
I've done the math, and it's an impressive investment, for sure. I believe that for me it has been well worth it. Therapy has completely transformed my life for the better.
Sure, there are times when it's more necessary than others. And yet I find that if I don't maintain the relationship in the meantime, it's not as helpful when I really need it. All the time we spend on relatively minor stuff, or talking in circles, or avoiding things, seems like it ends up being part of a foundation that our better work can rest on.
But I suppose it's important to do the cost/benefit analysis every now and then.
-p
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 22, 2010, at 19:57:29
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
Wow! What are your co-pays? I pay $20/visit, which works out to $1040 a year. Not much. My husband spends more on wine than that.
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 22, 2010, at 20:02:57
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 22, 2010, at 12:19:38
17 years is a long time. I've seen my p-doc for six and for the past year we've been meeting every one or two months. I feel, on the whole, he did me a lot of good. I'd say 90% of our sessions were worthwhile. But it's time to start moving on. I just stay now because it's too painful to say goodbye. But he thinks I'm ready, that we have no more real work to do.
Posted by violette on December 22, 2010, at 20:29:43
In reply to Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by Tabitha on December 21, 2010, at 22:07:27
The benefit I realize from psychotherapy greatly exceed the cost.
Please don't forget that many people with the most severe mental health problems cannot afford therapy at all or end up with some of the least experienced, least demanded professionals.
I'm sure some of you are aware of this.but I just wanted to mention it on this thread because it's very sad that so many people out there do not get appropriate treatment. THere is truly a lot of suffering.
Posted by violette on December 22, 2010, at 21:18:22
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost?, posted by violette on December 22, 2010, at 20:29:43
I know 2 women in long term therapy who told me they go because they 'enjoy it', they like the attention etc. Their therapy-year after year-is paid mostly by health insurance dollars. One of the 2 (the same one who said she thinks she has never had depression before) says she doesn't want to stop going because she has a 'major crush' on her therapist. Great, enjoy, but maybe they should pay the full expense themselves? I suppose it would be difficult to determine whether or not if therapy is a health necessity for a person? I believe psychotherapy can benefit most people (it also can cause harm), but so can Swedish massages, spas, and golf club memberships.
Many children, and their parents, who experience trauma or need treatment are not low income, but I've heard time and time again:
"Research is clear that poverty is the single greatest threat to childrens well-being.Research also shows that the younger children are when they experience trauma, the more vulnerable they are to its effects on brain development. 4"
http://www.nccp.org/topics/childpoverty.html
"Age of the first episode of maltreatment is associated with mental health problems in adulthood. For example, maltreatment at age 2 to 5 has been linked with anti-social personality disorder by age 29. Younger ages of onset (birth to 2) were associated with depression and other internalizing disorders by age 40."
I think it's alarming that so many people go without treatment. It's also probably true that even if some had the option, they might not pursue mental health treatment.
It is very expensive. I don't understand how we can spend $100s of thousands on therapy for my coworker and friend, while so many continue to suffer....a person has to be well to work and have decent health insurance. Last I heard, the Health Reform bill was struck down by a state court. I wouldn't be suprised if it ends up in the Supreme Court.
It's sad, so sad...it's sickening that kids don't end up getting any treatment until they go to prison.
"Many children and youth experience trauma. Depending on their circumstance, between 25-90 percent of children and youth experience events that leave them traumatized. 5 They include:
- Up to 50 percent of children and youth in child welfare 6
- Between 60 to 90 percent of youth in juvenile justice 7
- Between 83-91 percent of children and youth in neighborhoods with high levels of violent crime 8
- Between 59 to 91 percent of children and youth in the community mental health system 9Childrens Mental Health
A major determinant of outcomes for children, youth, and their families is their mental health. Low-income children, youth, and their families are disproportionately affected by mental health challenges, impairing the ability of children and youth to succeed in school and placing them at risk of involvement with child welfare and juvenile justice agencies
Child Poverty
Nearly 15 million children in the United States 21% of all children live in families with incomes below the federal poverty level $22,050 a year for a family of four. Research shows that, on average, families need an income of about twice that level to cover basic expenses. Using this standard, 42% of children live in low-income families.
Most of these children have parents who work, but low wages and unstable employment leave their families struggling to make ends meet. Poverty can impede childrens ability to learn and contribute to social, emotional, and behavioral problems. Poverty also can contribute to poor health and mental health. Risks are greatest for children who experience poverty when they are young and/or experience deep and persistent poverty.
Research is clear that poverty is the single greatest threat to childrens well-being. But effective public policies to make work pay for low-income parents and to provide high-quality early care and learning experiences for their children can make a difference. Investments in the most vulnerable children are also critical.
Traumas Impact
Trauma can result in long- and short-term problems. Research suggests that these can include physical and emotional health conditions and put those exposed to trauma at increased risk for chronic ill health and premature death. 1 For children and youth, in addition to health problems, other consequences of trauma include difficulties with learning, ongoing behavior problems, impaired relationships and poor social and emotional competence. 2 Children and youth exposed to trauma, especially violence, experience more learning and academic difficulties and behavioral and mood-related problems. 3 Research also shows that the younger children are when they experience trauma, the more vulnerable they are to its effects on brain development. 4"
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2010, at 14:21:15
In reply to Re: Has anyone else totaled up the cost? » Daisym, posted by annierose on December 22, 2010, at 7:15:36
> If this was a facebook post, I'd "like" it.
Here, you have to post that. But if Daisy turned on her share/tweet buttons:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#sharetweet
that would make it easy for others to share her posts on Facebook, and then you (and Facebook users who aren't Babblers) could "like" them there. :-)
Bob
Posted by 10derheart on December 24, 2010, at 15:36:02
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it, posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2010, at 14:21:15
Sigh. Sigh again.
IF Daisy turns on her buttons, I will eat Santa's sleigh AND all the reindeer and I'll eat Frosty the Snowman's hat, too!!
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20091022/msgs/922802.html
Merry Christmas, Dr. Bob. You sure are consistent about some things.
Posted by annierose on December 24, 2010, at 16:41:08
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it, posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2010, at 14:21:15
NO ... I wouldn't "like it" on Babble to be linked on facebook. Like Dasiy, I also have my facebook button off.
My comment was meant if Dasiy wrote on my facebook wall (not babble) I would "like it". The two should be kept seperate IMO.
Merry Chrismtas Dr. Bob!!
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2010, at 0:31:23
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it » Dr. Bob, posted by annierose on December 24, 2010, at 16:41:08
> IF Daisy turns on her buttons, I will eat Santa's sleigh AND all the reindeer and I'll eat Frosty the Snowman's hat, too!!
>
> 10derheartDaisy, sounds fun, don't you think? :-)
> My comment was meant if Dasiy wrote on my facebook wall (not babble) I would "like it". The two should be kept seperate IMO.
>
> Merry Chrismtas Dr. Bob!!
>
> annieroseThanks!
What if Daisy could write on your wall as "Daisym"? And you could write on her wall as "annierose"?
Bob
Posted by TherapyGirl on December 27, 2010, at 18:55:51
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it, posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2010, at 0:31:23
It still wouldn't work, Dr. B, because "AnnieRose" would be posting on DaisyM's real wall for her IRL friends (and perhaps family) to see. I don't know how much of our posts on psycho you read, but a common theme here is that our IRL friends do *not* get the whole therapy thing by and large. Because it is against FB policy to post under an assumed name, we would all lose our anonymity. Not a good thing for many of us.
I'm also not sure it's completely civil for you to poke at Daisy about this when she's made it clear how she feels about Facebook and Babble.
Posted by Daisym on December 27, 2010, at 23:18:21
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it » Dr. Bob, posted by TherapyGirl on December 27, 2010, at 18:55:51
Posted by muffled on December 29, 2010, at 22:32:18
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it, posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2010, at 0:31:23
> > IF Daisy turns on her buttons, I will eat Santa's sleigh AND all the reindeer and I'll eat Frosty the Snowman's hat, too!!
> >
> > 10derheart
>
> Daisy, sounds fun, don't you think? :-)
>
> > My comment was meant if Dasiy wrote on my facebook wall (not babble) I would "like it". The two should be kept seperate IMO.
> >
> > Merry Chrismtas Dr. Bob!!
> >
> > annierose
>
> Thanks!
>
> What if Daisy could write on your wall as "Daisym"? And you could write on her wall as "annierose"?
>
> BobWhoah....that post is just weird....seriously weird....like downright....well, not alot of forethot there methinks...
weird...
:(
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 30, 2010, at 7:56:31
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it, posted by muffled on December 29, 2010, at 22:32:18
>
> Whoah....that post is just weird....seriously weird....like downright....well, not alot of forethot there methinks...
> weird...
> :(Yes, you nailed it, Muffled. I guess he REALLY doesn't understand the problem a lot of us have with the FB and Twitter buttons in the first place?
Tant pis.
pc
Posted by 10derheart on December 30, 2010, at 12:07:14
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it, posted by muffled on December 29, 2010, at 22:32:18
My part, annies's part, Dr. Bob's part???
You KNOW I am weird! And thank goodness Daisy is not changing her mind or I'd be in a real spot, wouldn't I? Though I do like venison a lot.... ;-))
Posted by muffled on December 30, 2010, at 23:40:28
In reply to Re: I'd 'like' it » muffled, posted by 10derheart on December 30, 2010, at 12:07:14
PC, he don't seem to get some very important things, and that concerns me :(
:) 10der, just bobs part. Its so strange. Really it doesn't even make sense really.
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