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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:29:59
Has anybody who's read my story, who's known me here on Babble over the years ... has anybody ever wondered what it might be like to be my ex-T? I wonder what it would be like to be remembered as part of a story that warns against the dangers, the blind spots, the bad Things that Can Happen in psychotherapy, which was originally just marital counselling, which went South Really, really fast.
It just wasn't meant to be.
It just wasn't meant to be at all, none of it ever, my imagination went absolutely Wild with Desire for Life.
Posted by LadyBug on August 29, 2008, at 15:26:52
In reply to My Story?, posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:29:59
Share your story, I'm interested. I have a bad memory. I might remember parts of it? Share if you'd like..........
LadyBug
Posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 1:53:38
In reply to My Story?, posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:29:59
I only remember parts, Susan, because I was in my own treatment trauma about that time.
What I know, though, is that it sounded as though you were starving and that T must have looked pretty much like a lamb chop.
And if I may be so bold, when I don't think you and I have had much direct contact with one another, I think you might feel a little better if you could look at the whole situation from YOUR point of view, worrying about how YOU feel, because the more you worry about your ex-T, the more ammunition you have to use against yourself. You don't deserve that.
I hope you feel better.
Posted by Nadezda on August 30, 2008, at 12:06:18
In reply to Re: My Story? » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 1:53:38
I've been trying to think, too, about what's missing from your story, and Racer might be onto something. You think almost exclusively about how someone else (in this case your ex-T) felt and feels-- about himself, about the situation, about you-- and how you felt about him--- (you need him, you love him, you want him, you hate him, and many other things), and how you feel about your feelings about him (you hate yourself, you feel that you're out of control, you feel desperate to contact him, to hear his voice).
Seriously-- and I hope you forgive me for saying so-- this is the inverse of the story about the narcissicist who says, "So let's talk about you. What do you think of me?"
I saw my parents do this with people. Take them in-- and enjoy their admiration and need, up to a point-- and then get rid of them when they proved too much trouble, when the need got too raw.
But the point is not how awful my parents were. The point is, I (or these people) were not seen for themselves, and not supported to move on. And their lost futures are what matters, not my parents.
Maybe this T needed your love, in a way that gave you nothing with which to move on to your own life. That's a type of relationship that has its roots deep in one's history -- that is, getting caught up with someone who acts that out with you, but can't help you with it.,I believe in the Susan who remembers him, but has gone on to her own, productive, happier life. But I don't think he did-- or you do. Doesn't she have any rights? What happened to her? I think she desperately needs someone who can help her do that-- who can make you make it real, and liveable and very worthwhile. Isn't there some way you- as you are now-- could believe in that and really achieve that-- perhaps with some help?
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2008, at 12:47:24
In reply to Re: My Story?, posted by Nadezda on August 30, 2008, at 12:06:18
I don't know the story hence can make no conclusions. So I would like to hear it babblemail is always open. Phillipa
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 13:15:27
In reply to Re: My Story? » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 1:53:38
I laughed at this, for the first time in years, about this situation. Yes, I was starving, I love lamb, and he looked like a lamb chop, mint sauce on the side.
Sigh.
I still love him. It's crazy. It's absolutely insane, and so to fit the insanity label, this year I find out I'm a borderline, isn't that lovely, which is really Emotional Dysregulation, which is another way of saying if I fall in love with you, You Will Have Your Hands Full, Baby.
More than you could imagine.
My story is posted above, in "NEED TO REVEAL" or some such by-line .. byline .. now that's in interesting idea.
By line.
Line by f*ck*ng line by f*ck*ng line i have writ about you and I,
my love.
My Love.
Love me.
My brain is in a love me groove,
Love me love me love me.
I love me.F*ck it.
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 13:16:41
In reply to Re: My Story? » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 1:53:38
What is your treatment trauma story? I remember there was real trauma, yes, but please tell me a version here. I'm going to be looking for it.
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 13:27:22
In reply to Re: My Story?, posted by Nadezda on August 30, 2008, at 12:06:18
> I've been trying to think, too, about what's missing from your story, and Racer might be onto something. You think almost exclusively about how someone else (in this case your ex-T) felt and feels-- about himself, about the situation, about you-- and how you felt about him--- (you need him, you love him, you want him, you hate him, and many other things), and how you feel about your feelings about him (you hate yourself, you feel that you're out of control, you feel desperate to contact him, to hear his voice).
>
> Seriously-- and I hope you forgive me for saying so-- this is the inverse of the story about the narcissicist who says, "So let's talk about you. What do you think of me?"So true. So let's talk about me. What do I think of you? And I proceed to make it all about him when actually it's all about me. And I am playing that role to perfection, really, by being discovered to be a Borderline... now I have to drop the way I think of him. Because the reverberations on a psychic level are too great. No matter whether he ever reads this shite. Because to him, I fully expect it to be that.
Interesting, that I think this. What? Now what?
>
> I saw my parents do this with people. Take them in-- and enjoy their admiration and need, up to a point-- and then get rid of them when they proved too much trouble, when the need got too raw.
>Is this what the Therapist did to me? With me? With my willing help? Why would I willingly help him do this? Because I craved attention too? I suspect so. I had to be found out to be as terrible as I've always been told I am .. I'm ugly, for one thing. Truly grotesque, a creature with a horned snout and beaky little eyes.
Breath that's truly, gaspingly foul. The reek of a thousand dead carcasses.
Heh heh.> But the point is not how awful my parents were. The point is, I (or these people) were not seen for themselves, and not supported to move on. And their lost futures are what matters, not my parents.
>
Do I have a future?> Maybe this T needed your love, in a way that gave you nothing with which to move on to your own life. That's a type of relationship that has its roots deep in one's history -- that is, getting caught up with someone who acts that out with you, but can't help you with it.,
>
Yes. Or chooses not to help, because of their own psychopathic reasons? What is the truth, here? Why do I need the truth? There was certainly never any trust in the "therapeutic" (excuse me while I piss myself laughing) relationship.> I believe in the Susan who remembers him, but has gone on to her own, productive, happier life. But I don't think he did--
This makes him an *ssh*l* not worth a second thought. How could I fall in LOVE WITH SOMEONE LIKE THAT????
..."or you do."
But I want to. I want to see myself as strong. I want to see myself as healthy. I want to see myself as good.
Doesn't she have any rights? What happened to her? I think she desperately needs someone who can help her do that-- who can make you make it real, and liveable and very worthwhile. Isn't there some way you- as you are now-- could believe in that and really achieve that-- perhaps with some help?
>
> NadezdaDesperate is the operative word, sister.
>
>
Posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 15:25:26
In reply to Re: My Story?, posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 13:27:22
> >
> So true. So let's talk about me. What do I think of you? And I proceed to make it all about him when actually it's all about me. And I am playing that role to perfection, really, by being discovered to be a Borderline... now I have to drop the way I think of him. Because the reverberations on a psychic level are too great. No matter whether he ever reads this shite.Susan, I'm struck again at how punitive you sound towards yourself. Now, I can empathize with that. It's something I struggle with -- wow, Burns had it right:
"O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!"Reading what you're writing about yourself, I'm seeing some of what people say to me. Go figure.
It seems to me that the reason you want to drop the way you think about your ex-T is that *he is not worth that much energy and attention from you.* It's not because there's something wrong with you -- it's about where your energy creates the best value for you.
As for the basic self-criticism you're describing, maybe this will help: evolution conserved useful traits, even if it's not always entirely clear what makes them useful. (You know, "what use is half a wing?") Our own, individual psychological evolution also conserves useful traits -- if you're holding on to this feeling about your ex-T, despite your hard-earned insight into that situation, then it's serving some purpose to you. Rather than beating yourself up for this, maybe you'd benefit from trying to figure out what that need is? My guess is that it's partly to avoid looking at something else that might be more frightening, something you're doing for self-protection even though it's causing you pain. And I'd further guess that it's also helping you avoid the difficulties of real-life relationships, which can be very frightening at times.
I guess there's also a school of thought -- let's call it the "Ashley Wilkes Effect" -- that you're not "loving" your ex-T, but have created a suit of shining armor and allowed him to represent it for you. After all, no matter what you really do know about him, I'd bet you don't know *him* -- what does he order in a bar, does he floss in the living room, does he wear his socks to bed? You're loving something, and maybe asking yourself what that is would help.
> >
> Do I have a future?
>Susan, you're obviously intelligent, you have an incisive mind and a facility with language, and I think you're capable of a good deal of insight. You tell me -- does that woman have a future?
Good luck.
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 16:50:28
In reply to Re: My Story?, posted by Nadezda on August 30, 2008, at 12:06:18
Yes, I plan to do that. With some real help. And the help of my friends, of whom I have not a few on Babble, as your posts are showing me.
Why it should be important to me that this ex-T see me as whole and capable of living a meaningful, fulfilling life, I still don't know, and how to get over that need is a step I need to take.
It's why I still post.
It's why I talk to others about my situation now more than ever, although I kept much of it to myself.
Talking to a therapist about it is a good next step.
But overcoming my embarrassment at feeling so helpless is very difficult.
Posted by Jouezmoi on August 30, 2008, at 18:39:40
In reply to Re: My Story? » Nadezda, posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 16:50:28
Racer !!! ... Very well said. I must look for you when I am feeling crappy (smile).
Posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:33:13
In reply to Re: My Story?, posted by Nadezda on August 30, 2008, at 12:06:18
>
> I saw my parents do this with people. Take them in-- and enjoy their admiration and need, up to a point-- and then get rid of them when they proved too much trouble, when the need got too raw.
>
> But the point is not how awful my parents were.But the point is how awful my therapist was, the point is how awful other therapists are when they do this to their clients. The point is, this has to be shown for what it is and it has to become Unacceptable Practice. And as long as this sort of thing is done by therapists to clients, how many people are walking around out there wounded by their own need, wounded by a profession that purports to help these very people?
It's Bogus. It's Fake. It's Unreal. It's just not acceptable. It HAS TO STOP. IT HAPPENS TOO OFTEN.
Posted by Racer on September 2, 2008, at 21:22:10
In reply to Re: My Story?, posted by susan47 on September 1, 2008, at 11:33:13
> But the point is how awful my therapist was, the point is how awful other therapists are when they do this to their clients. The point is, this has to be shown for what it is and it has to become Unacceptable Practice. And as long as this sort of thing is done by therapists to clients, how many people are walking around out there wounded by their own need, wounded by a profession that purports to help these very people?
>
> It's Bogus. It's Fake. It's Unreal. It's just not acceptable. It HAS TO STOP. IT HAPPENS TOO OFTEN.
>
>Susan, I don't know how to put this thought into words, so please forgive me if I do it clumsily.
It sounds as thought you're doing something I used to do about my bad experience: you're making it more global, which prevents you from making it personal. I know that I do that to protect myself from the conflicts I have about having been so hurt. If I say, "this shouldn't be allowed to happen to anyone," I don't have all my standardized "...but I should have..." or "...but I'm not worth anything better, because I'm so bad..." routines, and I also have this deep internal fear that maybe I wasn't really hurt by it, but only think I was because I'm so damaged/selfish/lazy/whatever that I can't accept that everything they said was true, etc.
For me, it's a way to avoid the sorts of pain I felt in childhood, from hearing that I "shouldn't" have felt pain from the things done to me. Instead of hearing that "it wasn't so bad, you're blowing it out of proportion -- just like you always do, because you're so selfish/egocentric/whatever" because I'm saying *I* was hurt and *I* deserved better, I can globalize it, and include all that "...but it wasn't really that bad for me, it just could have been for someone more vulnerable."
I don't know if any of that made sense, and I don't know if any of it applies to you. I just thought I'd put that out there, and see if maybe it was helpful to someone else.
Posted by susan47 on September 3, 2008, at 9:44:54
In reply to Re: My Story? » susan47, posted by Racer on September 2, 2008, at 21:22:10
>
> It sounds as thought you're doing something I used to do about my bad experience: you're making it more global, which prevents you from making it personal. I know that I do that to protect myself from the conflicts I have about having been so hurt. If I say, "this shouldn't be allowed to happen to anyone," I don't have all my standardized "...but I should have..." or "...but I'm not worth anything better, because I'm so bad..." routines, and I also have this deep internal fear that maybe I wasn't really hurt by it, but only think I was because I'm so damaged/selfish/lazy/whatever that I can't accept that everything they said was true, etc.
>
Yes! You're absolutely right, the last thought that everything they said was true and I just can't accept it because I'm so lazy/selfish/stupid/psychotic/etc. .... it rings so true, and so does what you say next ....> For me, it's a way to avoid the sorts of pain I felt in childhood, from hearing that I "shouldn't" have felt pain from the things done to me. Instead of hearing that "it wasn't so bad, you're blowing it out of proportion -- just like you always do, because you're so selfish/egocentric/whatever" because I'm saying *I* was hurt and *I* deserved better, I can globalize it, and include all that "...but it wasn't really that bad for me, it just could have been for someone more vulnerable."
>
I'm taking on the world as a cause to avoid the fact that I was hurt, but because I'm so Used to being hurt, it's acceptable and excusable somehow, it's only me, but someone else might Really have Suffered. The fact is, I suffered. I just have to accept that.
It still hurts so much to think I phoned my ex-T and told him he was a prick, because he really isn't a very understanding man, let's face it, he definitely could have killed me with his "therapy". Excuse me while I laugh, while I bust a gut laughing at the obvious lie he must tell himself daily in order to get through knowing, Knowing he helped to bring me down, but I AM ALIVE, someone else might not be, he might have done something like this to countless other women, and what does it matter, it only matters to me. (???)Let me know when I'm coming around to a healthy way of thinking, Racer. I'm trying. I still don't really believe I have any rights, after all I am Borderline.
Damn. I would give anything not to be this. I'm going to work on being Okay. Because I understand that two years after Dx, after treatment (DBT) most borderlines no longer qualify for that Dx. Which would be lovely. Absolutely stark raving f*ck*ng lovely.> I don't know if any of that made sense, and I don't know if any of it applies to you. I just thought I'd put that out there, and see if maybe it was helpful to someone else.
It's helpful, it's helpful.
Susan
Posted by susan47 on September 3, 2008, at 9:59:41
In reply to OMG » Racer, posted by susan47 on September 3, 2008, at 9:44:54
>> It still hurts so much to think I phoned my ex-T and told him he was a prick, because he really isn't a very understanding man, let's face it, he definitely could have killed me with his "therapy".
No matter what happened, it is not okay for me to name-call anyone. It was not okay for me to phone his answering machine and tell it that he's a prick who doesn't even clean up his own messes.
That is likely why I feel badly.
Posted by Racer on September 3, 2008, at 17:29:06
In reply to OMG » Racer, posted by susan47 on September 3, 2008, at 9:44:54
I'm glad you found it helpful, Susan.
> >>
> Let me know when I'm coming around to a healthy way of thinking, Racer. I'm trying. I still don't really believe I have any rights, after all I am Borderline.
>Maybe it would help you to think of Borderline in a different, more supportive way? There was something I read in Linehan's book about how BPD would develop -- she used the example of a sensitive child whose parents didn't respond to lower key requests for appropriate attention, but did respond once the child had escalated. That's describing a learned behavior -- the desired result is obtained by escalating, so why not skip the unsuccessful model? Why not go straight to Tantrum Mode? The child never learns appropriately modulated emotions, because his/her emotions are only addressed at extremes.
If you think of the emotional dysregulation as a learned behavior, which can be UNlearned with effort on your part, does that help you see it more charitably?
I'm very glad what I wrote helped.
Posted by susan47 on September 3, 2008, at 17:45:28
In reply to Re: OMG » susan47, posted by Racer on September 3, 2008, at 17:29:06
> I'm glad you found it helpful, Susan.
>
> Maybe it would help you to think of Borderline in a different, more supportive way? There was something I read in Linehan's book about how BPD would develop -- she used the example of a sensitive child whose parents didn't respond to lower key requests for appropriate attention, but did respond once the child had escalated. That's describing a learned behavior -- the desired result is obtained by escalating, so why not skip the unsuccessful model? Why not go straight to Tantrum Mode? The child never learns appropriately modulated emotions, because his/her emotions are only addressed at extremes.
>
I wonder what happens if no emotions are ever addressed, unless they're the emotions of the parent, and then those are usually negative. Even the positive ones were the parental emotions. I don't even remember how a real need was expressed, other than by sullen means.. negative, it had to be negative because if it was something that might cause actual Joy, then that couldn't be allowed. But ask that parent today if any of that ever took place, and of course the answer is that I'm making it up, I'm delusional perhaps, that's not the way it was At All.> If you think of the emotional dysregulation as a learned behavior, which can be UNlearned with effort on your part, does that help you see it more charitably?
It's never easy being charitable with myself. I have so much anxiety over my very existence. (I think that I might be becoming neurotic... not good at my age, with my prognosis, being a drug-addicted Borderline is not a happy situation. But then, so many people in life don't have happy situations, and I can do something about mine. I can.
>
> I'm very glad what I wrote helped.I'm just sorry I'm so emotional all the time, Racer, I'm constantly emoting all over the place, and I'm very very depressed. Is that my persona? Is that just who I've chosen to be, because my ex-T has rejected me?
This is the end of the thread.
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